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#31598 - 11/12/09 05:14 PM Re: Satanic & Objectivist dilemma of military service [Re: TheInsane]
CJB Offline
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Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
 Quote:
On the subject of global warming there is of course a chance that it isnt caused by humans but most experts think thats the case and since I have no knowledge in their field I do trust their judgment.


And I have researched it a bit. A lot of the key people advocating environmental controls based on carbon emissions only use the research that actually helps their cause. Any research that contradicts what they want implemented is ignored by them!
Now, I'm not saying that humans don't comtribute to climate change. I'm pretty sure we do, in our own small way. But what we contribute is so miniscule compared to everything else that's thrown into the mix.

Whenever you listen to the "experts," you have to consider what it is they're expert at. Al Gore isn't an expert at global warming, he's an expert at pushing his own agenda and making money. Apparently the best way to achieve those two goals is to lie.

I'll get to the rest of it later, but right now there might be a tornado and death and destruction and a couple of horsemen of the apocalypse outside...and there's no way I'm gonna miss that.
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#31610 - 11/13/09 12:16 AM Re: Satanic & Objectivist dilemma of military service [Re: CJB]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Well, Im not familiar with Al Gores fight for a better enviroment or wht his motives are. For me hes just the colourless guy that lost and american election. I wasnt talking of any one expert but rather a combination of people. And gradually people wo denied human impact on the global warming have also changed their minds.

Im not sure how much more we can have of this discussion though. We seem to start repeating ourselves. If there are new angles Im in for it but otherwise it might be wise to move on to something new. And lets face it we're both terribly off-topic in this thread ;\)

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#31711 - 11/14/09 11:29 PM Re: Satanic & Objectivist dilemma of military service [Re: TheInsane]
CJB Offline
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Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
Hmm, a couple of days and a hell of a northeaster later (it had been quite a while since I had to eat sandwiches for dinner)...and I find myself at a loss as to what I was going to say anyway. And yes, we've definitely chased bunny trails bad enough throughout to have ended up quite a bit far off-topic. Perhaps some other time...
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"To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.'"
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#80066 - 08/31/13 11:23 AM Re: Satanic & Objectivist dilemma of military serv [Re: Jake999]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6864
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
I was only told "this is what the problem is. Figure it out and fix it." There was no way I was going to fail. It was my job to see that I didn't.


My son goes off to Army boot-camp right after graduation this coming year. I've often been asked how I feel about that in the context of my own world view, in addition to being a parent.


Opinionated people tell me I should be worried, concerned and even fearful for my son's life. That I should be disappointed in his White Knight ideologies. It makes me laugh. I know my kid, he's doing all of this for selfish reasons to include the last several years physical training for preparedness. It even landed him a job at his local gym, they offered he didn't apply but he did apply himself. I suppose some parents shelf their kids like fragile eggs and it doesn't seem to matter to them how many they drop and the chickens come home to roost. If my world view plays a role in any of his decisions it would be my parenting methods. Can't say I'm disappointed, concerned or fearful for him or the way he turned out.

From an Objectivist stance, I'd say Military Service as voluntary is not in flux with Objectivism. If say, my son was drafted, that's where the rubber meets the road. My son is pursuing his own dream. This kid has had an unwavering desire to be in the army since he was 6, and its manifesting into a reality. He's already signed up. He just has to finish High School.

The quote above from Jake999, stuck out to me as one of the many reasons he has offered.

He's a do-er. When he sets his mind to a task, he'll not get off it until he figures it out and finds resolve. He relishes in a challenge. Especially one that challenges his physical limitations.

Objectivism is a philosophy. As such it doesn't provide answers, its a way, not 'the' way of seeking them.

Service implies servitude, unless you were born with a Trust Fund. We are all peddling our goods and services.

Plus, Military Service in the U.S. is in short bouts. Not much different than taking on a job for a few years then changing it when you get tired of it. Changing careers can be a bit challenging, especially if your skill-set is specialized. It often keeps people in dead-end jobs for longer periods than desired.
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#80071 - 08/31/13 03:19 PM Re: Satanic & Objectivist dilemma of military serv [Re: SIN3]
Zerophopia Offline
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Registered: 08/11/13
Posts: 80
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
From an Objectivist stance


 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Objectivism is a philosophy. As such it doesn't provide answers, its a way, not 'the' way of seeking them.


Funny, I never took you as a fan of Rand. Ayn, not Paul, LOL.

Even I could stick Aristotle and Machiavelli in a blender and get a better mix than that chick. I don't do it simply because I detest the rationalism that is all things Aristotle. Although Machiavelli is rather "cool," as the kids say these days. Or not. #winning

JK
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#80076 - 08/31/13 04:39 PM Re: Satanic & Objectivist dilemma of military service [Re: FriendlyS]
Baelish Offline
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Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 4
Loc: New York
I'd say military service is in conflict with neither Objectivism nor a LaVeyan view of Satanism. There are all sorts of reasons why someone might join the military, and only the most deluded would do it out of "ask not what your country can do for you..."

The most obvious reasons to join would be the health benefits, cheaper college tuition, and stable employment in the event of a major downturn. I'm sure reasons like these are why most soldiers in today's America, without any impending foreign attack, actually join even if they'll publicly mention some feel-good "I'm defending my liberties" garbage. From a Satanic perspective there's no trouble here. You could, however, quibble and say that it's leeching off the public from an Objectivist point of view. It could equally be argued, though, that since per Rand's philosophy the military is one of the few justified roles of government, this is little different from a private enterprise offering these benefits to their employees. It's using self-interest to preserve the state; a state which, if we're talking about America, is something Objectivists tend to see as unique and better than much of the world.

There are also cases like the aftermath of Pearl Harbor and 9/11, as well as the height of the Cold War. In these situations, many people saw the cultural institutions they take for granted and benefit from as at risk, and did legitimately join to defend them. If you actually believe this is the best course of action, it's perfectly in-line with rational self-interest. No reasonable Satanist or Objectivist would begrudge you for it.


Edited by Baelish (08/31/13 04:48 PM)
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#80083 - 08/31/13 06:27 PM Re: Satanic & Objectivist dilemma of military serv [Re: Zerophopia]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6864
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
Funny, I never took you as a fan of Rand. Ayn, not Paul, LOL.

Even I could stick Aristotle and Machiavelli in a blender and get a better mix than that chick. I don't do it simply because I detest the rationalism that is all things Aristotle. Although Machiavelli is rather "cool," as the kids say these days. Or not. #winning

JK


Can't say I'm a fan really. It does't mean I can't form an opinion having read her. I read a lot of shit, and most of it is shit. The topic caught my eye in lieu of recent projections thrown at me because my kid is joining the Army.


Edit to add clarity: I am not an Objectivist. The statement you quoted was more or less a vantage point. Like speaking from another man's shoes.


Edited by SIN3 (08/31/13 06:28 PM)
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#80085 - 08/31/13 06:49 PM Re: Satanic & Objectivist dilemma of military serv [Re: SIN3]
Kemble Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 139
Rand's ideas may reflect a great starting point in terms of personal liberty but often reality forces different compromises. As far as I understand the Satanic position, self-sacrifice is OK if you can't live with the opposite scenario. For example the issue if given the choice of either dying or having your wife, kids, or comrades killed. If you can absolutely not stand seeing the others dying bearable to continue living, self-sacrifice is justified. I know, "Satanists are their own gods." But often gods have the choice of assigning a heirarchy of values to the people and objects within their experience that can become higher than their own bodily existence. If that doesn't jibe many benefits from military service can justify a selfish choice for service anyway.
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#80117 - 09/01/13 07:27 PM Re: Satanic & Objectivist dilemma of military serv [Re: Kemble]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6864
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
As far as I understand the Satanic position, self-sacrifice is OK if you can't live with the opposite scenario. For example the issue if given the choice of either dying or having your wife, kids, or comrades killed. If you can absolutely not stand seeing the others dying bearable to continue living, self-sacrifice is justified rationalized. I know, "Satanists are their own gods." But often gods have the choice of assigning a heirarchy of values to the people and objects within their experience that can become higher than their own bodily existence.


Reminds me of the Question posed on This Thread

 Quote:
As an aside directly related, I wonder if anyone could summarize The Devil's Advocate as a mythic type of Satanism. And how Kevin Lomax is both the Satanic everyman while also being the Buddha.

Watch it again, and play the two washroom scenes back to back. Sweet trip.


Give it a whirl.
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