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#31603 - 11/12/09 08:44 PM Love/Hate Your Enemies
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
Love your enemies and do good to them that hate and use you…hate your enemies with a whole heart, and if a man smite you on one cheek, SMASH him on the other!

Anton LaVey
The Satanic Bible


Both approaches, I think, have advantages and disadvantages. The problem with both approaches lies in their generalizing.

I’m fine with hating one’s enemies, but doing good to them can be smart in certain circumstances. Some so-called enemies can become life-long friends as the result of strategically placed good deeds. Other enemies will see such gestures as a sign of weakness and use them against you.

The point is that thinking matters. The devil is in the details.
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#31604 - 11/12/09 09:19 PM Re: Love/Hate Your Enemies [Re: William Wright]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I tend to subscribe to a number of different points of view in relation to this question:

The Corleone view in regards to this:

"Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer."

I feel that there is a certain tactical advantage to this, but a condition seems to be that your enemy and yourself seem to have some form of common purpose, which you need each other for, for a certain period of time. You are effectively working against the enemy behind the scenes as it were as you maintain an illusion for a given period of time before you pounce.

The Dr. LaVey/Redbeard view:

"If a man smite you on one cheek smash him on the other."

I find this may be a useful approach to an enemy provided I am aware of and responsible for and willing to accept the foreseeable consequences of my own actions.

I would not limit such an approach by stating that the response to the enemy must be physical. In fact in a society where laws operate I may not be able to employ violence against the enemy at all without damaging myself.

You mention that it may be possible to somehow bring your enemy around to your side by carefully planned and executed deeds which the enemy will interpret as peaceful. You also mention that these deeds could be interpreted as weakness and used against you in some way.

This may be reasonable. I tend to find that enemies may be able to reconcile and join forces or call a halt to hositilities if it can be agreed that their joining will serve a common purpose; provide a more solid defence against an even stronger enemy which they must face (balance of power); or will make them appear magnamious in the eyes of their peers; or because each recognises that nobody can win such a battle and that attempting it would cost too much.

I still consider such a position to be dangerous, but possibly productive. One must be careful or else your enemy will destroy you or else turn you into a puppet.

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#31605 - 11/12/09 09:51 PM Re: Love/Hate Your Enemies [Re: William Wright]
CJB Offline
member


Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
As something of an aside, I think most people misunderstand the part of the bible about "turning the other cheek."

 Quote:
If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.


Now, if you just read straight into it, than yeah, this is an example of someone physically assaulting you, and you should just take it.

However, one way to interpret this is as so: striking on the right cheek means that the person was using his left hand. Back in ye olde biblical times, doing anything with the left hand was considered an insult. I believe it had something to do with wiping your ass with your left hand or something along those lines. Therefore, this verse could be read:

"If someone insults you, ignore them."

Granted, this probably isn't the greatest place to discuss Christian theology at...and even so, the bible does say to love your enemy, and to bless them, etc.

The way I saw this way back when I was such a happy Christian was that if someone insults me, I should ignore them, but if someone attacks me, I should defend myself. And then...after I was done defending myself (...if I was the victor) than I should help the poor soul that I'd just beaten up.
The reasoning behind THAT was that I could turn an enemy into a friend, and be a good witness of Jesus Christ to this poor lost soul (:puke in mouth:).

Saying that, it makes much more sense on so many levels to hate your enemies. If a man insults, you, tear into them. If a man attacks you, beat the crap out of him and leave him there to die. If someone insults you or takes advantage of you, and you let them walk over you, than they will continue doing that. If someone insults you, and you insult them back, and get into a scrap, and afterwards you guys laugh and have a beer, that's cool, too (As I understand, that's how most comic-book team-ups start out).

Why would you want to be friends with someone who treats you like shit? I don't mean incidental shit, like some jackass cutting you off in traffic. But someone maliciously fucks with you...there's no reason to desire that person's company.
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~~CJ
"To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.'"
-Ayn Rand

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#31607 - 11/12/09 11:28 PM Re: Love/Hate Your Enemies [Re: CJB]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I would like to identify 5 common states of affair in relation to the operations of power and individuals who wish to acquire power or who already wield power to a greater or lesser extent.

The enemy may employ these methods against you in order to advance their own self-interest.

1. An alliance is formed between individuals in order to tear down a king. Once the king is torn down the members of the alliance may decide to rule as an aristocracy; or under a king which they have elected or must accept; or they may fight it out in order to establish a new form of stratification.

2.An individual among equals successfully makes an alliance with a higher authority and steps up leaving the others behind.

3.An individual attempts to tear down a superior by approaching a power higher than both of them. The individual succesfully "proves" that he or she is of more value to the higher power or the organisation, which the higher power supports, than the individual's superior is.

The higher power then favours the individual and either replaces the individual's superior with the individual or promotes the individual to another position at the same level or at a higher level to the superior.

4. A faction, party or organisation elects a representative whom they believe will defeat the representative of another faction, party or organisation in a contest which a larger body of peers will decide on.

The members of the faction, party or organisation will only stand up and stay together and even survive as a force as long as it has a representative who has a reasonable to excellent chance of winning the contest.

5. Power is maintained by an aristocracy through exclusion of others and special invitation and successful campaigns against the enemy.

An aristocracy may compromise because there is no other choice due to the superior numbers against them and/or a successful campaign of violence from others who wish to be included.

Some members may be able to identify further ones I can't think of right now.

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#31612 - 11/13/09 12:25 AM Re: Love/Hate Your Enemies [Re: ]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
The big problem with any rules or laws that are written down like this is that some humans tend to take them litterary at any time in any situation. Life is more complex than to regulate by a few simple words. I always let the situation decide on what to do.
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#31613 - 11/13/09 12:33 AM Re: Love/Hate Your Enemies [Re: ]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Ok, so this topic has already been done death but wtf I'll give it another go. This is how it works:

There are alot of assholes in the world. There is no getting around it; there always have been and always will be. If someone physically attacks you then by all means give them a beatdown they won't soon forget.

However, seeking vengence against every little dipshit that wrongs you in any way is ultimately a waste of time. Especially if you consider the fact that for alot of people the reaction is their ultimate goal. They want piss you off and rile you up. By reacting you are only giving them what they want and further encouraging them in their douchebaggery.

I used to love fighting; the anger, the adrenaline, the sound of fist meeting face, the blood and the feeling of elation after putting someone in their place. These days I find it best to avoid such altercations to begin with but sometimes...
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#31665 - 11/13/09 10:34 PM Re: Love/Hate Your Enemies [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
If one thinks that a topic has “already been done to death”, it makes little sense to “give it another go”.

Of course physical violence deserves retaliation. No reasonable person would get smacked by some thug without smacking back. What I’m saying is, there is a time for military might and there is a time for diplomacy. Any bonehead can pummel other boneheads.

With enemies, as with friends, one should consider all angles before taking action. Is this person a waste of time? Does he/she have redeeming qualities? I personally tend to think of others less in terms of “how has he/she wronged me?” and more in terms of “how can he/she help me?” But to each his own.
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#31670 - 11/14/09 12:07 AM Re: Love/Hate Your Enemies [Re: William Wright]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
If one thinks that a topic has “already been done to death”, it makes little sense to “give it another go”.


Dude, shut the fuck up. The fact remains that this has been gone over before. I decided to be "nice" and add my two cents.

 Originally Posted By: William Wright
What I’m saying is, there is a time for military might and there is a time for diplomacy. Any bonehead can pummel other boneheads.


Ok. And your point is....
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No gods. No masters.

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#31671 - 11/14/09 12:17 AM Re: Love/Hate Your Enemies [Re: William Wright]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
I believe it was Dr. Raghavan Iyer, my revered U.C. Professor of Political Theory and most admired sage of the Theosophical Society (where his writings may still be studied) who gave me the variation on this aphorism I tend to follow: "Forgive your enemies, but don't forget their names."
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Michael A. Aquino

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#31680 - 11/14/09 03:26 AM Re: Love/Hate Your Enemies [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
You must've gone head to head versus that professor a few times, considering what a crackpot blavatsky was, and what a complete crock of shit theosophy is in general...
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Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#31689 - 11/14/09 12:48 PM Re: Love/Hate Your Enemies [Re: GillesdeRais]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Giles do you ever post anything positive?
Or anything in depth?
Or anything explaining how you came to such conclusions?
Plus what does what you wrote have anything to contribute to the topic at hand?


I see a possible banning in your near and dear future .....

Morgan
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
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#31690 - 11/14/09 12:48 PM Mahatma Iyer [Re: GillesdeRais]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: GillesdeRais
You must've gone head to head versus that professor a few times, considering what a crackpot blavatsky was, and what a complete crock of shit theosophy is in general...

Raghavan was an absolutely charming & brilliant fellow; read about him here. I ran into him in my M.A. & Ph.D. graduate studies at U.C.S.B. [where he was a full prof in my department]. As soon as we realized each other's esoteric interests - this was 1974-1980 - we indeed had regular knockdowndragouts, both in & out of the classroom. More often than not we had arguments during seminars that left all the other grad students wondering WTF we were talking about.

He thought I was too smart to be involved with Anton LaVey and Satanism. I thought [as you discerned] that he was too smart to be involved with HPB and Theosophy.

Despite his praising my intellect and current incarnation/karma to the stars, he always gave me "A-" grades. When I bitched about this once, he said it was deliberate: that he didn't want me to get "complacent" with an "A". Thanks, Rags. \:\(

In many ways he was a Dr. Jekyll to Anton LaVey's Mr. Hyde, and before the 1975 crisis I was planning to get them together for dinner sometime; it would have been great fun, at the very least one of these evenings!
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#31703 - 11/14/09 09:10 PM Re: Mahatma Iyer [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
6Satan6Archist6,

I can’t shut the fuck up and tell you what my point is. That would be impossible (or at least give me a nasty headache).

My point is that, as our interaction demonstrates, there is little to be gained from tit-for-tat. As the saying goes, we both get pissed on. It’s more advantageous for me to focus my efforts on creating alliances rather than righting perceived wrongs. Hospitals, jails and cemeteries are filled with those who had an axe to grind.

What I think many of us fail to realize is that, to a large extent, we create our friends and enemies. That is a generality of course – some people are going to be an asshole no matter what. But I’ve found that much of the time, my actions have directly shaped and altered my relationships. Yes, I could find a way to hurt a perceived enemy – no great feat there. But turning an enemy into a friend? Now that takes skill.

For what it’s worth, I apologize if I upset you. I take no joy in pissing people off. I find the exercise counterproductive. I realize that much of what I say in this forum will not be original, especially to those with 900+ posts under their belt. But I will make every effort to add something meaningful to the discussions.

Cheers.

PS: Dr. Aquino, thank you for gracing us with your presence. I found your posts a totally unexpected and pleasant surprise. Xeper.
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#31707 - 11/14/09 10:44 PM Re: Mahatma Iyer [Re: William Wright]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
I can’t shut the fuck up and tell you what my point is. That would be impossible (or at least give me a nasty headache).


Touche. I was more referring to your smart ass comment. It doesn't matter anymore though.

 Originally Posted By: William Wright
My point is that, as our interaction demonstrates, there is little to be gained from tit-for-tat. As the saying goes, we both get pissed on. It’s more advantageous for me to focus my efforts on creating alliances rather than righting perceived wrongs. Hospitals, jails and cemeteries are filled with those who had an axe to grind.


That is all true. I think you misunderstood me though. I wasn't saying that one should "right every percieved wrong". It can be more advantageous to create an alliance rather than an enemy but that is not always the case. Sometimes there is no way to form that alliance i.e. the other party isn't willing or some other "irreconcilable differences". There is also the posibility of the former enemy turned ally becoming your enemy again whether it be pre-meditated or circumstantial. How close did you let this person get? What do they know about you that they can use against you? Too many "alliances" can be just as bad as, if not worse than, having too many enemies.

 Originally Posted By: William Wright
What I think many of us fail to realize is that, to a large extent, we create our friends and enemies. That is a generality of course – some people are going to be an asshole no matter what. But I’ve found that much of the time, my actions have directly shaped and altered my relationships


yes, your actions can directly shape and alter relationships. That is pretty much how relationships work. They are based upon the interactions of the involved parties. Negative interactions will create negative relationships and positive interactions will create positive ones - in theory.

 Originally Posted By: William Wright
Yes, I could find a way to hurt a perceived enemy – no great feat there. But turning an enemy into a friend? Now that takes skill.


Just for the sake of argument; I have become friends with quite a few people after fighting them. In those cases it was working out our aggressions that proved beneficial.

 Originally Posted By: William Wright
For what it’s worth, I apologize if I upset you. I take no joy in pissing people off. I find the exercise counterproductive. I realize that much of what I say in this forum will not be original, especially to those with 900+ posts under their belt. But I will make every effort to add something meaningful to the discussions.


No need for apologies. I was just in a mood the other day. You are just as free to speak your mind here as I am so long as what you say is relevant, constructive, coherent and not completely insane. But you seem to present yourself well enough so I am not worried about that and hope I am not dissapointed.

While it can be annoying to go through the same thing over and over again I wasn't really complaining when I made that comment. More of just typing what was on my mind at the time. Carry on.
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