Page 1 of 2 12>
Topic Options
#3171 - 01/06/08 10:34 AM Where have all of the Men gone?
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
So, a female friend of mine was lamenting the sad state of men today. As a keen observer of the human scene he presented me with a few questions. Here is the dialog:

“Why does it seem that the roles of men and woman have reversed?”

During the 60’s some very sad things became the new ‘conventional wisdom.’ It was a perfect storm of social liberalism, feminism, and other socialist claptrap. Essentially, men were told they did not matter. Women were told they were better off without a man. The State was giving away free money to women who were single mothers. The State filled the traditional role the men played as father, teacher, and provider.

As a result, we have seen the nearly wholesale destruction of the family unit. Millions of children have been raised without a father or with a father who has been fully neutered.

Children develop their sexual role modeling from their parents. Without a father around, a boy never does learn how to be a man. As a result, millions of men have grown up to think that the role of women is to take care of men. “Mommy always took care of me.” Since it did not seem that anyone took care of mommy, most of these boys have no idea that this is not the natural order of things.

To society’s further detriment, this cycle continues to perpetuate it’s self. As this abomination becomes the new norm, these gender roles actually do become reversed in eyes of society at large until they are ultimately ingrained into the collective consciousness and codified into law.


“Why does this current generation of men (18-38) expect women to make all the decisions, and moves in regards to any type of a relationship?”

Well, see above. Again, most men have no idea that they are suppose to be making decisions. Mommy always made the decisions. Isn’t just what women do?


“Why does it seem that most men are looking for a mommy/sex toy and not a partner?”

Again, they have never seen men and women, mommy and daddy, functioning as equal partners in solving a problem or running the family enterprise.

Now, you cannot fault a man – any man – for wanting a sex toy! It has often been said that the difference between men and boys is the size of their toys.

I remember when a female friend of mine was getting married. One of her older coworkers gave her some sage advice – she should be a good wife and mother, but in bed be a complete and total slut. Sound advice indeed. One of the things that women just do not understand about men is their appetite for sex and pornography. Women just don’t get this. However, I can assure you that the porn industry is selling the exact product that men want to buy. The chances are quite high that if you see it in porn that men are fantasizing about it. Of course, there are variations and personal preferences regarding particular kinks but in general you get the idea.

However… as in the case of my friend, this sort of thing is for behind closed doors. During your normal business hours, men and women must be equal partners if the relationship is going to work. Now, that is not to say that men and women are equal. Thankfully they are not! One is also not better than the other. They are different and in any relationship each will bring certain strengths and weakness to the table. You must be true partners and play off of the other’s strengths.


“Why does it seem that the rate of successful marriages have declined, while divorce is on the rise?”

Well again, kids get their sexual modeling from their parents. Fewer and fewer people know what a father looks like. They have never seen a functional male-female relationship. Girls have it no better than the boys. They have also have no idea what a man needs and what his motivations are.

Feminism has told women that they do not need a man – even to help raise children! Women have been sold a bill of goods. In the process of studding their womanhood they seem to failed to learn that in as much as men are suppose to take care of women, women for their part are suppose to take care of men! The needs wants and desires of each are a bit different but equally important, and despite the babblings of social engineers they actually need each other.


“Why has every relationship become disposable/temporary, with nothing geared towards long term goals?”

In addition to everything I have already mentioned we also have biology working against us. Men have a hard wired biological imperative to breed with as many women as possible. There are many ways to deal with this. Catholic Priests simply deny it. Some actually fully embrace it. I think the best solution lies somewhere in the middle. But, as I have already tried to point out, few people know how to be in a relationship because they just don’t know what one looks like.


“Have traditional strong role models gone the way of the dinosaur?”

Possibly.

Of course, there are a few of us living fossils still around. However, the entire system seems engineered against us. It does make it hard to raise the next generation of men take over for us. The biggest problem is changing the social consciousness to reject the neutered male as the norm. Society cannot penalize men for acting as fathers, providers and protectors. It must demand that men live up to their duties, responsibilities and full potential. Real men must be allowed to exist in the real world – not only be found in the popular media. Most people have never seen a real man and I am not sure that society, at any level, is prepared for what this might look like.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

Top
#3180 - 01/06/08 11:23 PM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: Fist]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Excellent sir!

I have been with my wife for over fourteen years (in one way or another) - and I still have to question our roles together.

She is strong because she had to be, and I never had it quite as bad, so I'm less "intense" when it comes to "preference". I think we are both still learning our important roles - but we are doing it "together", and that, I believe, is what a "lasting relationship" is about.

People don't just come pre-fabricated and perfect for you out of a box... unless you buy one of those Real-Dolls (another topic, another time). You need to work at it, unless "working at it" takes up all your time and joy. It shouldn't be "too much work".

Well, my $.02 anyway. Your post has made me think much, and I'm sure I'll be reading it over again... (not that you're Dr. Phil or anything...)

True words - thank you.
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#3183 - 01/07/08 12:39 AM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: daevid777]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
Taking Fist's post into consideration, should we then return to pre-industrial gender roles? The woman in the kitchen doting on the children while her man is bringing home the bacon? Is this the true "natural order of things?" Why not simply damn ALL gender roles and preconceptions? Let men and women do what they want. I think that current societal gender roles in the US are a product of lethargy, general malcontent, and too much Maury Povitch. People have come to expect unhappiness. Women expect to be single moms so they can prove their tenacity and ability to function independently. Men refuse to act responsible in order to prove that they can later "step up to the plate" and be a real man once confronted with their irresponsibility. People don't necessarily make a conscious decision to end up destitute, but it's become the societal norm in western society.

Does the fact that I'm happily committed to my wife and have no desire to fuck other women make me less of a man? Does my wife's understanding of my desire to view porn make her frigid? Am I less of a husband because my wife can fix her own flat tire? Is she less of a wife because she contributes more than I do to our household income? Are we an exception to the reality you've presented? I can't honestly believe that the ultimate male role model is a combination of John Wayne and John Holmes. Is the ultimate female role model a combination of Edith Bunker and Tara Patrick? Boring on both ends.

I would absolutely LOVE to hear Morgan's take on this thread. Here's hoping.
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

Top
#3190 - 01/07/08 08:52 AM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: Octavius]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
I hope you don't misunderstand me. What I am advocating is not a return to the 1800's but rather that each person contribute to the functioning of their own families based on their own individual abilities.

You are quite right, a lot of people want to play victim or hero. What I am saying is that people need to contribute on the front end before reaching a crisis.

It must be remembered that man has existed for 500,000 - 250,000 years (depending on whose math you use) and that 'civilization' with it's mass specialization has only existed for about 15,000 years. Our current modern age from the Enlightenment till now is about 200 years old. Everything in man's current collective consciousness is rather new. Yet man's fundamental evolutionary programing is rather ancient. We are hard wired to enter into social arrangements resembling tribes. For eons this was highly successful survival strategy.

To understand the 'natural' and 'normal' state of man we must go beyond our recent history and back to his neolithic heritage. Anthropologist's give us every indication that women and men were most certainly equal partners in the enterprise of the tribe's survival.

Of course your wife should be able to change her own tire! This is not different than a neolithic women hunting to feed her children or a neolithic man making his own clothes so he doesn't freeze. Survival comes first and necessity is the mother of invention. But imagine this scene:

You are driving down the road with your whole family in the car. It is cold and raining outside. You have a blowout and pull over. Who gets out of the car to change the tire and who stays in the car with the kids? Why?

 Quote:
I would absolutely LOVE to hear Morgan's take on this thread. Here's hoping.


LOL. Yeah, me too.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

Top
#3202 - 01/08/08 12:11 AM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: Fist]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
There are a lot of really valid points that were brought up by everyone. I am just going to try to answer them and put my own view on them as well. I don't think I am the voice of the disenchanted women, but who knows what may ring true anyone.

I think the 1960's & 1970's allowed women to realize that they didn't have to be married. They didn't have to be trapped in a bad marriage, and that they could survive on their own. These women had strong role models in their own mother and relativies who went to work in the factories when their husbands went to war during WWII. Rosie the rivitor was a national rolemodel for supporting the troops, her family, and her country. Yes, it was an advertising campaign, but it worked.

I think a family unit needs the support of both parents, but not at the expense of the child, or husbands', or wifes' mental and physical health. I don't want to raise a child alone, but many people are successful at it. I feel its better to be a single parent than in an abusive relationship.

Yes, some boys have no male role models, and no "normal" male presence in their lives. Who's fault is that when there are boys & girls clubs, police atletic league groups, and even the horrid church programs. This doen't mean that latch key kids are lost, it just means that the unless they are smart enough to help themselves, a lot of them are just lost.

Too many women have spoilted their only child and made them into the role of toy and partner in the home ie "who's my little man of the house". Too many of them become trapped with no future, no drive, and then just end up producing more children because their mom now wants a grand kid.

Yes, it seems that women my age are tired of this bullshit, and don't want to date a man/kid they didn't push out. If we wanted to make all the decisions in regards to what to do, eat, go, etc, then we would just go out with our gay male friends...

Sextoy/partner issue...
Most men dont know how to make it last, or convey the things they want or enjoy in the bedroom. If all men knew what they were doing in the bedroom, no one would leave the bedroom. I would rather have a man I have to gag on occassion because of the neighbors than someone I have to hurt to get a response out of. I want to know what makes my partner tick, most women I know want you to share your ideas too.

Oh, btw, we all watch porn, but we are not all going to admit to it, or the certain kinds we watch. Have to keep some mystery.

Yes, kinda same line Fist... Lady in front of company, maid about the house, cook in the kitchen, and whore in the bedroom. Old family story about my great grand father wanting "cake" when he came home from work everyday from my great grand mother. They were married over 70 years.

To make it work I think you have to be willing to be partners in life, in love, in choices, and in decisions. You have to respect each other for who the person is, not who you think they are or who you want them to be. Whatever happens in the bedroom stays in the bedroom. In public, you need the strength and loyality of the person who you want to spend your life with. Yes, chemisty may play a big part, but you still need to have a strong common base to build anything on. You need to be able to trust each other, and know you have your patners back.

Its not that role models have gone the way of the diansaur, its just people look for them in the wrong places. People pick idols for the wrong reasons. Its not about money, or sports, or fame. It should be who inspires you to lead a better life, make more of yourself, help you to achieve more, and make you feel that you can do anything. Role models need to come from within, you have to make yourself proud because at the end of the day there is just you in the mirror.

Part of the problem is due to poor education, poor parenting, and lack of drive. Hell, some people don't even know who John Wayne or Edith Bunker are. As for Tara Patrick, she is my role model in how she made her relationship and marriage happen and work.

As for the car situation...
He would score points for changing the tire, and would get a "reward" once home. Just cause I can do soemthing doesn't mean I want to or should have to. On the same note, if its the morning, and I am dropping him off at a meeting, and just dealing with children all day I can do it.

Then again what do I know.
I am the one living with 4 cats, and has a man across the country.

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#85467 - 03/02/14 01:28 PM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: Fist]
Ferox Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/19/13
Posts: 69
Loc: Adios!
Have you heard the one about the sick chemist? If you can’t helium, and you can’t curium, you’ll probably have to barium.

Well, you know, I like to make fun of nerds…, just because they are nerds. We all know that the media is used as a role-model provider for artificial selection, and today, those poor science geeks are the propagated playboys. Yeah, some of them even presume the confident wild types now. After all, you don’t know anything about splitting atoms, a healthy diet or how your mobile works. So therefore you must be stupid eh? Gee, how humiliating for us big and strong macho types. We are so barbarian with our hairy chests and asses, we should call ourselves gay-bears and leave our fuckin’ hunting ground completely eh? Cowboys? Come on, don’t be silly, that’s Brokeback Mountain - John Wayne was a fag and everybody knows it. Bikers? Same thing, sweet cakes! All those confident Alfa-males are nothing but afraid and insecure babies, out of style and the D.P. time/space warp. You know what, I’m proud of that, and I love the following Conan line: “I’m afraid, and I’m shy…could we talk over there, where the others cannot see?” I leave it up to you to fill in the gap.

"At no time in western civilization has man accepted so willingly contrivances calculated to weaken and destroy him…, in any such softening up process very few are unaffected." - Anton LaVey


Edited by Ferox (03/02/14 01:31 PM)

Top
#85497 - 03/03/14 04:08 PM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: Ferox]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1140
Loc: Amarillo, TX
Fist's old posts are typically pretty insightful and thought-provoking, and I hadn't seen this one yet. Thanks for bumping it, Ferox. Although...

 Originally Posted By: Ferox
...those poor science geeks are the propagated playboys...Gee, how humiliating for us big and strong macho types. We are so barbarian with our hairy chests and asses, we should call ourselves gay-bears and leave our fuckin’ hunting ground completely eh? Cowboys? Come on, don’t be silly, that’s Brokeback Mountain - John Wayne was a fag and everybody knows it. Bikers? Same thing, sweet cakes! All those confident Alfa-males are nothing but afraid and insecure babies, out of style and the D.P. time/space warp.

My boyfriend was a sailor for years. He has rope-burned hands and rippling muscles. He can pick me up like a cat. He used to ride a motorcycle when not at sea before he got an injury that made it unsafe. The late Smoky caught sight of him on my webcam one night and stated that he looked like one of the intermediate phases in the evolution of man sequence. He has since been referred to as "The Caveman."

He also happens to like programming, D&D, Ren Faire, and Dagorhir. Go figure. Geekiness and brawniness are not mutually exclusive.
_________________________
Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

Top
#85499 - 03/03/14 06:14 PM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Ferox Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/19/13
Posts: 69
Loc: Adios!
Hi, XiaoGui17. Well, the women I hang out with are all very cool independent individuals who appreciate healthy straight social interaction. This is all you’re going to get from my side, the rest is kept private for fun’s sake. I’m sorry but I don’t feel compelled to preach in any way. I happily stated my opinion, that’s all: I’m straight and I feel great, thanks!

Straight guys confronting dickeyes…

Top
#85506 - 03/04/14 02:06 PM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: Ferox]
Brother Nihil Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/13
Posts: 181
Excellent OP, and even more accurate six years on. The war on masculinity has now reached epidemic proportions; if even women don't like it, perhaps they need to be more vocal in rejecting the radical feminists and their insane agenda. The Western world is being memetically conquered by the most soul-starving, emasculating ideology, which is radicalizing more and more young Western men to do things like become Islamic jihadists. I see it in the faces of young (especially white) men every day: A look of total frustration, anger and confusion that may soon turn violent.

Personally, I point the finger at not just feminists, but the entire axis of PC Progressivism, which includes large numbers of Jews, gays, atheists, liberal Christians and race-hustlers. Satanists should be leading the charge against the entire edifice of PC ideology, which for my money is a bigger threat to the Satanic ethos going forward than Christianity.


Edited by Brother Nihil (03/04/14 02:19 PM)

Top
#85510 - 03/04/14 06:55 PM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: Brother Nihil]
Ferox Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/19/13
Posts: 69
Loc: Adios!
 Originally Posted By: Brother Nihil
Satanists should be leading the charge against the entire edifice of PC ideology, which for my money is a bigger threat to the Satanic ethos going forward than Christianity.


Well Nihil, first off, you’re not my brother man. Second, what stops you from showing us monkeys the proper civilized way?…, “brother.”

Top
#85523 - 03/05/14 11:29 AM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: Ferox]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
The strong belief in traditional roles is dying out, and the view that a man is 'less of a man' if his wife takes on certain 'man roles' will also die with it. This is really not a bad thing in my eyes.

I'm generally a man's man, I play football, like going to the gym and things like that. However, I suck at some 'man's roles' like fixing things. My girlfriend is fairly good at it, letting her fix a broken thing doesn't bother me. I don't mind doing 'women's work' either, if it makes things easier. I'll wash a dish if I need one, I'll make my own food. I'll even make my girlfriend food, as she is disabled and it's easier that way for both of us. Unless she wants to get up and do it, I don't have a problem making it. Instead of feeling emasculated, 'like a woman' and etc. I'll just do it and get back to what I was doing, it's not a big deal for me.

I've also never understood the importance of a man making more money than his wife. In part, it's because I don't judge success by money but that's another discussion entirely. It goes back to what was mentioned about the brains making the money nowadays. Most of the macho man's jobs are blue collar, and low paying and most high paying jobs seemingly have little to do with manliness or toughness.

I know of a former world's strongest man who is now a firefighter(forget his name). If he married a female doctor, is he now 'not a man'. If a pro-athlete marries an actress who probably makes more than him, is he now 'not a man'. My girlfriend is actually hoping to be a voice over actress one day. It'll be difficult to make happen of course, but should I discourage her for fear of her making more money than I probably ever will? The whole thing is stupid in my opinion. I would prefer to enjoy the perks of the extra income rather than needing to be 'the man'.

In my view, this sort of thinking dying is not a bad thing. I think 'to each their own' plays a role in it as well. Don't limit what you pursue in life based on your gender.


Edited by 334forwardspin (03/05/14 11:30 AM)

Top
#85524 - 03/05/14 12:15 PM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: Brother Nihil]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
I'm not sure there is a 'war on masculinity' going on, I think you're exaggerating a bit. Plus, what exactly do you consider 'insane ideas' that radical feminists have. For the most part, it seems they just want to have equal opportunities to men. Some of them take it a bit far in actually hating men, and/or turning everything into a feminist issue when it really shouldn't be, but those seem to be in the minority. To get a better idea of what you mean, I just want to clarify what you consider insane ideas that feminists have.

As for the second part, I agree PC Progressivism has gone way too far, particularly in matters of race and ethnicity/culture. It's easy to find evidence of this, such as the Martin-Zimmerman case. Just because it was spun into a race case, outrage that was way above normal was generated over it, from people who likely would not have even cared if Zimmerman had been black. I wouldn't say this is a 'threat' to Satanic ethos, but I get your general point. There would be a lot more backlash from expressing Satanic ideas that condemn the PC freaks, than you'll get from Christians for saying your a Satanist.

However, this sort of thing seems mostly separate from feminism. They both come from the liberal side of the equation, but there seem to be a lot of people who believe largely in one and not the other. Many who believe in feminist principles aren't PC when it comes to race, and many who suffer from 'white guilt' don't share the feminist view point. Ironically the 'white guilt' PC freaks often will defend Islamic culture, a culture that condemns most liberal principles.

Top
#85525 - 03/05/14 01:01 PM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: Fist]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

Top
#85526 - 03/05/14 02:35 PM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: 334forwardspin]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1140
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: 334forwardspin
Plus, what exactly do you consider 'insane ideas' that radical feminists have. For the most part, it seems they just want to have equal opportunities to men.

If they just want "equal opportunities," they are at best clueless to think they don't already have them (and then some). "Radical feminists" go way, way, way beyond equal opportunities. That's what makes them "radical."

Among the dumb ideas I've heard:
(1) All sex with men is tantamount to rape. (Or sex is rape unless she was 100% sober, had absolutely no regrets, didn't feel used or dirty afterwords, wasn't feeling vulnerable at the time, and blah blah blah)
(2) Any type of sex work or sexual imagery (e.g. pornography, modeling, stripping) is inherently sexual exploitation of women.
(3) There's no such thing as any type of difference between the inherent temperaments of men and women whatsoever--not even as a general statistical rule with exceptions--so any disparity in sex-related statistics must be oppression by the patriarchy. Even if men and women are held to identical gender-neutral standards, the standards themselves are inherently sexist if women don't measure up equally to men.
(4) Everything liberals don't like is "patriarchy." Capitalism? Patriarchy. Industry? Totally patriarchy. Eating meat? So patriarchy. Fossil fuels? You betcha those are patriarchy. Modern medicine? Patriarchy. Animal testing? Patriarchy.

If you haven't run across many radfems, consider yourself lucky. I had to take a women's studies class one semester because it was the only one that fit into my schedule and gave me the credit I needed to graduate. Holy fucking crapballs, Batman. It gets to the point where they can't select an outfit, eat a meal, or take a shit without getting into a fucking existential crisis about whether the way in which they are doing it is perpetuating the patriarchy. It becomes a hysterical pissing contest of more-feminist-than-thou. My professor even suggested we have a collective class grade because individual grades were so "competitive" they may reflect...you guessed it...patriarchy.

And yeah, they're in a minority. But the fringe reflects just how crazy the middle has become. It's become sacrilege to say something like "Maybe she was lying about having been raped," or "Women make less money than men because they don't work as hard," or "Children raised in fatherless homes tend to do worse in life."

Note, Bill Maher is hardly what you would call a rock-ribbed conservative. Yet here's his commentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r11Vl0zrrcM
_________________________
Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

Top
#85544 - 03/06/14 12:54 PM Re: Where have all of the Men gone? [Re: 334forwardspin]
Ferox Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/19/13
Posts: 69
Loc: Adios!
 Originally Posted By: 334forwardspin
The strong belief in traditional roles is dying out, and the view that a man is 'less of a man' if his wife takes on certain 'man roles' will also die with it. This is really not a bad thing in my eyes.


Hi 334forwardspin, I understand the new situations you added to this thread. I also don’t have the feeling that I have to compete with femininity in any of those, I certainly don’t feel threatened or anything, I love women. Gul! ;\)


Edited by Ferox (03/06/14 01:01 PM)

Top
Page 1 of 2 12>


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.029 seconds of which 0.001 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.