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#31841 - 11/17/09 05:48 PM Hermetic Order of the Black Sun
Sceevin Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 16
Loc: Washington
HOBS, i have been a member of a local chapter for about three months. Before finding this group, the only time i had ever heard mention of it was as a possible connection to the NAZIs and through the Temple of Set. Going to their meetings(few and far between as they are) they do appear to have a lagit founding. But they have a policy of letting members be in contact only with those below them, and then those directly in grade above them.
As for their ritual use, they are more of a generic Atheistic left handed order then specificly belonging to one specific path.
I have been trying to figue out if they really are a real order. The only time i have seen the majority of the members in one place at one time was the last Walpurgisnacht. And all the members there wore black hooded robes with face masks.
The part that struck me as odd, was the fact that they have no plicy against speaking to non members about being a member. Its like they want attention. They just told me not to share the inner rituals.
Does any one know anything about this order?
_________________________
They will all burn in the fires of our black sun
"Engineer, Surgeon, Magician, I AM GOD!"-Rotwang

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#31844 - 11/17/09 06:18 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Sceevin]
Sonsosatan Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 12
Loc: Pacific Northwest
I think perhaps you have stumbled upon Nazi Cultism.

Maybe this is relevant?
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Vril_Society.htm

Mysticism...like going to the circus really.

Ave Satanas!
_________________________
"The death of fear is in doing what you fear to do."

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#31849 - 11/17/09 06:51 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Sonsosatan]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Cultishness, definitely. One of the main aspects of cultism is in the cloistering of members and admonishing them to not speak to members outside of the group. This insures that they will have people who know THEIR side of things and not much else. It's a common technique that has been used forever... pretty successful too.

I don't know about the Vril Society though, SOS. Those of us who've been around for a while might know of them if we've studied the roots of the Black Order or Germanic occultism. We can only HOPE that there are people out there who still get into the books, although there was a fairly good segment on the Vril in a History Channel documentary.

Good to have you with us... looks like you've done some homework.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#31851 - 11/17/09 07:13 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Jake999]
Sonsosatan Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 12
Loc: Pacific Northwest
Thanks Jake999, it is an honour to be noticed by yourself, you seem to have years of clear thought on your side.
Ritual Cultism seems to have deep roots in our cultures, evidence of their power lay currently over 400' high on the Giza Plateau.
Nudists would not seem to make very good Cultists, since they don't prefer clothing although I am sure they wear hats in this day and age, fearing sun-stroke!
Ritualism is practiced by almost all world religions but often I think the rituals are not what they seem to the outsider. In the case of Tibetan Buddhism much of the ritual is the form of meditation that the monk is trying to master in order to emancipate himself and others from the realm of suffering.
How sexy is the name of this particular cult, the Nazi fathers certainly have a panache about them! Truly defining Hermetic would seem to provide for the deliberate use of esoteric imagery. Black Sun, I would thin in German this term would also invoke the iconography of Yin & Yang and the like.
It is amusing that in this day and age there are those that go through the efforts of ordering and having a seamstress take in a black hooded cloak for the ceremony to which no one is to know about.
The frivolity of it is charming though, adolescent like the ages of these cults members were in the 17, 18 and 19th Centuries.
I don't expect that Jake999 has a purple embroidered hooded cloak outside of a Halloween Costume from years past?!

Ave Satanas!


Edited by Sonsosatan (11/17/09 07:15 PM)
Edit Reason: sloppy typing
_________________________
"The death of fear is in doing what you fear to do."

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#31853 - 11/17/09 07:26 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Sonsosatan]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
No... but I do have my black robe that was worn during ceremonies at The Melek Taus Chapel and The Black House. I keep it for nostalgia these days, as I don't really care much to indulge in formal ritualizations any more. They have their purpose, mainly in training people to immerse themselves in their total environments and to respect the traditions that have come from before, but life IS a total environment on its own, and I've managed to mindscape and cultivate my personal environment. The rest now is just gravy.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#31854 - 11/17/09 07:52 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Jake999]
Sonsosatan Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 12
Loc: Pacific Northwest
The best thing about Gravy is that it will restore dry meat, it goes great with potatoes and when a biscuit is involved it takes a man back to Grandma's kitchen!
I wonder if there is a cult of the biscuit, oh that's the current American Society isn't it?
Jake999, have you ever written about your journeys in this life in book form, I would like to hear more, as an elder statesman of Satanism I would expect that there would be much to learn from your experiences and your observations of them.
Satanic Memoirs...has a ring to it doesn't it!?
_________________________
"The death of fear is in doing what you fear to do."

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#31857 - 11/17/09 08:48 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Sonsosatan]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I've written a lot about my time in Satanism here on the boards. Don't know how interesting it is to others. I've just written what I've seen and what I've found interesting or useable along the way.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#31860 - 11/17/09 08:58 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Sceevin]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Never heard of them at all. I'm guessing they must take their cue from early Neo-Volkisch (too lazy to find an umlaut here) groups, but it's possible that they're not nazi/fascist related.

Is it a "real order"? If they have real-life gatherings with actual people, they're evidently more "real" than your average Geocities-only magical lodges that seem to be all the rage these days.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#31905 - 11/18/09 04:32 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: The Zebu]
Sceevin Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 16
Loc: Washington
the question of whether or not it is real, i was meaning if this was the order that has been refrenced in books of Nazi occultism, or if this grooup is not related. I have been capable of gathering very little information on this specific group.
_________________________
They will all burn in the fires of our black sun
"Engineer, Surgeon, Magician, I AM GOD!"-Rotwang

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#32124 - 11/22/09 11:06 PM Theosophy? [Re: Sceevin]
TheCusp Offline
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Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 14
I was wondering where you guys rank Theosophy compared to Satanism. Not trying to promote it, I just happened to find some of the topics it covered interesting once upon a time.

The OP reminded me of the time I attended a theosophical discussion group that turned out to be a theosophical lodge. Also turned out to be not so much open discussion as indoctrination. There were some interesting people there, like a university professor who could read and write Sanskrit, but holding hands in a circle for group meditation was just too much to take and I never went back.

I only ask because I left the place with their publication "the light bearer" or light bringer had a luciferian ring to it, even though it was filled with garbage.

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#32142 - 11/23/09 12:49 PM Re: Theosophy? [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
Our esteemed Setian member, Dr. Aquino, holds an interest in the theosophical pursuits, and my own interests in the field are limited to the literary and the memetic. I cannot give the theosophical discipline any credence beyond that for the simple reason that it is forcing the student's hand by presupposing an ulterior cause to all the earth's religions, namely a *real* divine force.

My interest probably stopped short of yours. Clear from the outset that HPB was a wacko & con artist who could write enough flowery fantasy to attract, well, "the usual suckers". [How someone as smart as Iyer got involved is anyone's guess.]

There are a number of what could loosely be called "metaphysical societies" around, of course, from the serious & sincere to the farcical & fraudulent. Some are initiatory. Some are magical. Some have at least some wise things to say mixed in with the dingdong. Most are harmless and even socially beneficial. Some like the People's Temple & Heaven's Gate & the "OTO Solar Lodge" can be dangerous/lethal.

Some consider themselves religions in competition with/contrast to conventional religions. Some profess that they are not religions, mostly in an effort to avoid persecution and also to attract religion-affiliated members.

If there is a common "mystery" underlying all such enterprises & efforts, it is simply that while science can increasingly explain the "how" of universal existence & order, it cannot explain why such a complete, universal, integrated, and intricate UE should be at all [as opposed to either nothing or a something of random chaos]. So people hypothesize gods/God as the cause/"prime mover"/"watchmaker" (or cosmic sadomasochist, take your pick), and then it's just a question of coloring in the dots for your favorite iconography.

Atheists generally feel that the "why" is fundamentally inexplicable, or at least beyond their brainpower, so they take the comforting position that the question shouldn't be asked; therefore it "doesn't exist". Sort of Orwellian "crimestop". Agnostics allow the question to be asked, just confess they can't, theoretically "yet", answer it. So they're off the same hook, just a little less dogmatically.

As for "atheistic Satanism", I still think that it is transparently merely an excuse for atheists yearning for "cocktail-party glamour" to try to steal some from the delicious imagery of Judæo-Christian Devil worship. And that is somewhere between silly and pathetic, since it just lays all the more bare the dullness and drabness of "honest" Atheism. The 600 Club wouldn't last a week without Satan to color itself with, the Goat of Mendes atop its mainpage. [Prove me wrong: Eliminate the imagery and the affected "Satanic"/"Satanism" jargon in all posts, and see if it survives.]

The impulse behind authentic Satanism is essentially the complement to that underlying universal-metaphysical efforts (such as Theosophy, or at least Iyer's refreshment of it); it apprehends and idealizes individual/isolate presence & consciousness against that "universal everything-else" and seeks not only to fully comprehend it, but to fully actualize & express it. That's "Satan", Set, or whatever other term one utters to represent it.

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey, 1973
In fact, is that demon within each of us really an enemy, as we have so long been taught? Or will it be recognized as the guiding spirit of enlightenment which it actually is? You must remember that the word daimon does not imply “evil”, but simply a “guiding spirit”, a “motivating spirit”.

Man must quit kidding himself. Only when he emancipates himself from dubious interpretations of good and evil - when he can truly rise above good and evil, beyond good and evil, realizing that these terms are probably the most relative terms in his existence; when he can accept the long, obscene name of “Satan” [because that is a dirty word, “Satan” - the occult world seems to find it even more so]; when he can accept this word, this name into his vocabulary as a sound to be honored - then he will be free! Until then he will walk in fear of the very scapegoat he has created, and his potential guide will remain his nemesis.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#32145 - 11/23/09 01:08 PM Re: Theosophy? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
As for "atheistic Satanism", I still think that it is transparently merely an excuse for atheists yearning for "cocktail-party glamour" to try to steal some from the delicious imagery of Judæo-Christian Devil worship. And that is somewhere between silly and pathetic, since it just lays all the more bare the dullness and drabness of "honest" Atheism. The 600 Club wouldn't last a week without Satan to color itself with, the Goat of Mendes atop its mainpage. [Prove me wrong: Eliminate the imagery and the affected "Satanic"/"Satanism" jargon in all posts, and see if it survives.]


Do we really need to be starting in with this again? Maybe you went into Satanism looking for "cocktail-party glamour" but that doesn't mean all of "us" had the same motivations.

You wanna know what I think is silly and pathetic; grown men who talk to imaginary friends. Actually, you can go ahead and remove "silly" from that because it is really just pathetic.

I wonder how long ToS would last if all mentions of Set were removed. I bet a strip club wouldn't last very long either if they got rid of the strippers. The bar down the street from my house would close down right quick if they stopped serving alcohol.

I realize some people may be somewhat "star-struck" as to your presence here but IDGAF who you are or what you have done. So you were in CoS a million years ago and started ToS - BFD - I am not so easily impressed.

To me it seems like you have a bone to pick with Satanism. If you take so much issue with "Atheistic Satanism" one wonders why you decide to become a member of a site that champions it. That is like Jesse Jackson joining the KKK or Elton John singing with the Westboro Baptist Church.
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No gods. No masters.

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#32149 - 11/23/09 02:27 PM Re: Theosophy? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
[quote=6Satan6Archist6]
 Quote:
If you take so much issue with "Atheistic Satanism" one wonders why you decide to become a member of a site that champions it.

I don't take issue with it - just acknowledge it for what it actually is, as everyone here knows too. Some, as Anton quoth so very often, just can't bring themselves to admit it. It puzzled him, and me, why this curious mixture of "need" and "brittleness". He finally shrugged it off, and where "Satan/Satanism" is concerned, I generally do too. Linus is happy with his blanket; why should I be Snoopy and snatch it away from him?

I visit the 600 Club both out of historical interest and because underneath much of the "atheistic Satanism"-chanting (which reminds me ever so much of the "we're-witches-not-satanists!" mantra of the Wiccans), I see lots of authentic Satanic genius struggling, frequently very eloquently and thoughtfully, to express itself. I like that, and if it means putting up with nervous Atheist-disclaimers along the way, so what? The Satanists here will eventually get over that.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#32150 - 11/23/09 02:33 PM Re: Theosophy? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230


_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#32152 - 11/23/09 03:23 PM Re: Theosophy? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
CJB Offline
member


Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
Just gonna throw in my four cents (...damn inflation)

I'm an Atheist because I see no definitve, objective proof of any deity. Asking the question "Why did the universe begin?" (etc.) to me is like asking why rocks erode or why stars blow up: it's assigning conscious causation (something happened, something must have done it, that thing must have had a reason) to something that requires no conscious causation in the first place...yes, the rocks erode, they do that due to the rain and wind, but there need not have been a person planning on sending rain, etc. that way in order to do it.

If a person, for some reason, decides that there was a conscious cause, upon observation of the objective universe, one would logically come up with deism. Following current scientific thought, such a being would basically be a computer programmer: before time, this guy made a universe using a system of rules, hit the "play" button on his Cosmic Computer, and set the program in run. After the program is in run, there isn't much he can do to change it that wouldn't alter the entire program. And if he did that, we wouldn't even be capable of knowing about it, because the original would have been erased throughout all time and the replacement would appear, to us, as the original. Even with such a model as this, there's no way to prove the existence of our programmer-god, and I would have to ask the question on why would we worship (or even acknowledge) such a being. You say militant atheists have a problem with people asking why. I don't...I just ask them "why ask why?"

The requirement for belief in a personal deity (or other supernatural power) would require some sort of subjective evidence; something Christians may call a conversion experience. If you have some such conversion experience, than I can't touch you, and more power to you. Something happened to you that defies logical, natural, objective-universe explanation, and if it did, more power to you. I've never had such an experience that I couldn't explain with simpler mechanisms (Occam's Razor), so I don't believe. I will admit that part of me is jealous that I haven't had such an experience, and were such an experience to occur, I would become an instant believer.

So, with that in mind, why am I a Satanist as well? Well, the philosophy really appeals to me. And I like the aesthetics, so yeah, I guess I am just stealing Christian symbolism (...oh, like they didn't steal their imagery first). I have yet to be invited to a cocktail party or had wild orgies, so that's not my reasoning, although if I were, I would say that's a rather nice fringe benefit...

I'll end with a quote from Will:

[q]"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."[/q]
_________________________
~~CJ
"To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.'"
-Ayn Rand

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#32169 - 11/23/09 08:48 PM Re: Theosophy? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
FriendlyS Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 39
Loc: Toronto, Canada
 Originally Posted By: MichaelA.Aquino
I don't take issue with it - just acknowledge it for what it actually is.


What it actually is, is Satanism. “Atheistic Satanism” is somewhat accurate but an oversimplification of what it is. It is atheistic because there is no external deity being worshipped. More accurately, it is auto-theistic. The individual is the “god,” the one that needs to be pleased, or in a sense “worshipped.” If it were truly Atheistic Satanism, it wouldn't be Satanism, it would be LaVeyanism or something. By this I mean people who follow his philosophy but not his religious views on auto-theism as stated in TSB.

“Theistic Satanism,” be it Setian, Traditional, or reverse Christianity, isn't Satanism either (at least not the way Satanism was set down by Anton LaVey). Externalizing the deity and worshipping it still leaves one as the worshipper. Satanism as laid out by LaVey, and the kind that most on here follow, breaks this idea of the person having to worship anyone but themselves.

 Originally Posted By: MichaelA.Aquino
"atheistic Satanism"-chanting (which reminds me ever so much of the "we're-witches-not-satanists!" mantra of the Wiccans)


To me, this is completely different. Satanists who use the term atheistic to explain their beliefs do not do it to avoid judgement. They do it to explain themselves to those who don't understand that Satanists do not worship an externalized deity. Again, auto-theistic Satanist would be more accurate, but I don't think many people would understand this either so it is easier just to say “atheistic.” As far as Wiccans go, they try to claim that they are “white witches,” not Satanic or “black witches.” As LaVey said, and I agree, white witches do not exist. No matter how much they make it seem that their magic works only for “good,” anything they try to get through magic is selfish, or else they wouldn't bother. Satanists don't try to steer away from satanic stigma. If they did, they wouldn't call themselves Satanists. They merely try to make it understood what they actually do and do not do, unlike the Wiccans who try to be accepted by others.

Rather than viewing “Atheistic Satanists” as Wiccan-like, I view “Theistic Satanists” as just like any other religious person. They feel the need to worship something else, the only difference is that they follow the opposition to the mainstream or something “dark and evil.” Even if you view those who call themselves “Atheist Satanists” as “atheists yearning for 'cocktail-party glamour'” (which they aren't), it is still better than those who worship something which doesn't exist.

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#32187 - 11/24/09 12:40 AM Re: Theosophy? [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
TheCusp Offline
Douchebag
stranger


Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 14
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
If searching for a divine force is for you, then go right ahead. I like to study religions to see how they're constructed, simply because it gives us some interesting insights into how we choose to fashion ourselves mental/memetic crutches, built from superstition and fear.


It's more like I was searching for peers who were worth talking to. My interest in the subject was of similar vein to yours, but there is also a certain romantic appeal to theosophy with the mention of giants and such that I can appreciate without having to believe in. Like the saga of Mel's Hole. I don't give a damn if it's true or not, it's one of the greatest stories ever told. Who doesn't love a bottomless hole? Even better two of them!

 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
My interest probably stopped short of yours. Clear from the outset that HPB was a wacko & con artist who could write enough flowery fantasy to attract, well, "the usual suckers". [How someone as smart as Iyer got involved is anyone's guess.]


The majority of people are wackos, that doesn't render her work completely useless. When approaching anything of this nature, I try to remember something I read in one of Castaneda's books. People can't be wrong about what they experience, they can only be wrong about the conclusions they draw from those experiences. If you have the patience to sort through all the opinions and conclusions and pick out the relevant descriptive detail, there are treasures to be found everywhere.

Unfortunately HPB has a lot of conclusions...

I also try to keep in context the time period at which it was written, and the general mindset of the people at the time. Go back further and read Emmanuel Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell, which he explored while in hypnogogic and dream states. The catholic mindset had a huge influence at the time and completely influenced and limited the metaphoric tools he had available to describe his experiences. But if you have the patience to bridge the time gap and make the connection, there is good shit in there.

What you make of it is up to you. I'm fond of the works that have taken on completely different and epiphanal understandings in different points in my life. Each rationalization was equally valid, it just that each new one would take me outside of my current box that seemed like limitless freedom until I suddenly found myself beyond it's boundaries.


Edited by TheCusp (11/24/09 12:49 AM)

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#32189 - 11/24/09 01:05 AM Re: Theosophy? [Re: FriendlyS]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I think it boils down to authenticity. There are shallow atheistic Satanists who only use the diabolical as "icing on the cake".... and there are atheistic Satanists who truly embrace Satan as a deep-rooted symbol and meaningful definition of existence.

Likewise, there are theistic Satanists who are simply swapping out Jesus for Satan as another expendable idol to grovel down to... and there are others whose metaphysical definitions are so abstract that they are nearly identical to atheists were it not for their nomenclature.

In short, there are hypocrites on both sides of the fence.

I realize what Herr Aquino is getting at, which I too take issue with the modern Church of Satan for, but for slightly different reasons. It is my conviction that the constant mantra of "We're just atheists with frills, atheists with frills..." demeans the inherent value of Satanism overall by making it ideologically subservient to something else. Atheism is a natural consequence of my Satanism, not the other way around. Likewise, for any authentic Satanist, they would be such regardless of the metaphysical reality of their symbolism.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#32194 - 11/24/09 01:34 AM Re: Theosophy? [Re: The Zebu]
FriendlyS Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 39
Loc: Toronto, Canada
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
"We're just atheists with frills, atheists with frills..." demeans the inherent value of Satanism overall by making it ideologically subservient to something else.

When put like that, I can agree with you and Mr. Aquino. Stating that a Satanist is an Atheist first with a few additions does not help anyone understand what Satanism is really about.

However, I still don't believe that when true Satanists use the term atheistic to describe Satanism, it is a cop-out like the Wiccans who claim that their magic is "white" and RHP strictly in an attempt to be mainstream. It is simply a way to in a sense, dumb it down for people who think that Satanism is about actual devil worship.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
there are others whose metaphysical definitions are so abstract that they are nearly identical to atheists were it not for their nomenclature.

To these Theistic Satanists, which as far as I know about the ToS (which is not too much), Setians seem to fall into this category more than the others, I have more respect for (I meant no disrespect to Mr. Aquino in my previous post) than those who just substitute a RHP idol with a LHP idol. Still, as far as (LaVeyan) Satanism goes, I think that one of the main ideas was to turn people from worshipers to the worshiped (if only by themselves). Theistic Satanism (for the most part) still goes against this idea and as I said before, keeps the worshiper worshiping.

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#32502 - 12/03/09 06:07 PM Re: Theosophy? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
 Quote:
why should I be Snoopy and snatch it away from him?


A delicious attribute of this site irrevocably remains the cruel battle between
Atheistic Satanists (ala Lavey), and Deistic satanists. Unfortunately, both sides are still out (of their minds).
Why is it so hard to carefully analyze all information readily available to those with half-a-brain and a high-speed broad-band connection to accept rational conclusions...Evidently, it seems to be a long, hard jump for most people.
Have fun...Stay single. ;\)

BTW - Thank our troops when you see them. ;\)


Edited by GillesdeRais (12/03/09 06:08 PM)
Edit Reason: ebola sudan
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#32507 - 12/03/09 09:24 PM Re: Theosophy? [Re: GillesdeRais]
CJB Offline
member


Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
 Originally Posted By: GillesdeRais

A delicious attribute of this site irrevocably remains the cruel battle between
Atheistic Satanists (ala Lavey), and Deistic satanists. Unfortunately, both sides are still out (of their minds).
Why is it so hard to carefully analyze all information readily available to those with half-a-brain and a high-speed broad-band connection to accept rational conclusions...Evidently, it seems to be a long, hard jump for most people.
Have fun...Stay single. ;\)


Wow! Thanks for the unnecessarily cryptic nonsensical remarks!
By the way, it would be "theistic" Satanists, not "deistic" Satanists. A deistic Satanist would...well, would pretty much be like an atheistic Satanist!
I'm sure most atheistic Satanaists have little to no problem with the theistic types, and vice versa! Both types typically just don't like annoying fucks with no insight or nothing really interesting to say, especially if what they do say doesn't actually say anything.

Just out of simple curiosity, what is the rational conclusion that you have jumped to?

 Quote:

BTW - Thank our troops when you see them. ;\)


And...you're welcome, I suppose?
_________________________
~~CJ
"To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.'"
-Ayn Rand

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#32511 - 12/04/09 04:39 AM Re: Theosophy? [Re: CJB]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
 Quote:
Both types typically just don't like annoying fucks with no insight or nothing really interesting to say

WoW! You just proved my point, fortunately. Thank you for buying into nothing that proved your own point so eloquently. \:\)

BTW-Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? I hope she likes herpes!


Edited by GillesdeRais (12/04/09 04:48 AM)
Edit Reason: ebola Sudan
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#32514 - 12/04/09 05:46 AM Re: Theosophy? [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
Thank Maw, I'm suitably chastened. For your viewing pleasure, I'm including this link
BTW - If I visit Norway, can you provide me with fish? ;\)
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#32515 - 12/04/09 05:54 AM Re: Theosophy? [Re: CJB]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
 Quote:
A deistic Satanist would...well, would pretty much be like an atheistic Satanist


I think you are flirting, dangerously, with Nemesis...Just saying.
Look, if you're trying to bait me into a REAL argument, lets tackle determinism vs. free will, or the second sentence from Plato's MENO. I would really be interested in your sickeneing views.

BTW - I just posted new nude photos of Morgan on my website. Whips? Chains? Fun is fun!


Edited by GillesdeRais (12/04/09 05:57 AM)
Edit Reason: ebola Zaire
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#32516 - 12/04/09 06:10 AM BTW Maw, my friend and critic. [Re: GillesdeRais]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
Here is a classic example of why no one really understamds dirty Satanists (Wicked, evil, naughty Zoot). Misconceptions abound, and while I dont identify myself as a Satanist, I still believe in freedom for all/ BTW - Fair warning, this IS disturbing.


The answers to "why" are as varied as the individuals that make the choice.

One of the more common things that lead people to investigate what Satanism may be, is the fact that Jews, Muslims, and Christians all say he WAS an arch angel and part of God's close personal entourage, yet very few details are offered. People are curious and they want to know why Satan would be God's greatest ally, then switch and become his adversary.

Another opinion is that in the Bible, Satan is said to have asked a logical question ... "Now that creation is complete, and man has been made in God's image, and yet has chosen to defy God by eating the forbidden fruit, is God even neccessary anymore?"

And according to the Bible, God has stepped back and is now currently watching without intervening ... and has cast Satan and his followers out of Heaven and down to the earth, where Satan now rules ... and since we all live where Satan currently rules, SOME choose to learn about Satan, and once they realize the truth about it, some of them choose to become Satanists.

... of course there are many other reasons too, these are just a few of the big ones that get many people to take the time to find out exactly what Satanism is.

... once they take the time to find out what the real Satanism is like, they realize how wrong their first impression was ... there are no super evil virgin sacrifices on burning altars in caves in volcanos with demons ... its more like just finding the part of God that lives in you and making yourself more Godlike, which is only borderline blasphemous, but declaring yourself your own God goes against the big three religions of Jews, Christians, and Muslims and so is considered, BY THEM, to be in league with the devil.

Once it is realized that Satanism only means the following of a few simple ideas and concepts, apparently first offered by Satan, and NOT the actual following of and worshipping of Satan as the new God, it is finally made clear that Satanism places the individual at the center of the universe, to look at things from a purely personal point of view ("how does THAT affect ME?") while religions with a deity will all place their God at the center of the universe and make all serve the God. It is the pureness and simpleness of this point of view that will often trigger the decision to become a Satanist ... but it was the erroneous and incomplete explanations of Satan offered by the Bible that started the process of discovery leading to the decision to become a Satanist.

While most religions clearly state the need for a God, and offer their God as the true one, Satanism asks if a God is really needed, and if we can get by without one, by just being the best and the most that we can be ... it asks if you would rather be an obidient pet sheep to a dominant God, or would you rather rule yourself ... and this is what appeals to those who make the choice ...

12
Pts


Rat


Edited by GillesdeRais (12/04/09 06:30 AM)
Edit Reason: Anthrax Leprosy
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#32524 - 12/04/09 12:32 PM Re: BTW Maw, my friend and critic. [Re: GillesdeRais]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: GillesdeRais


Once it is realized that Satanism only means the following of a few simple ideas and concepts, apparently first offered by Satan, and NOT the actual following of and worshipping of Satan as the new God, it is finally made clear that Satanism places the individual at the center of the universe, to look at things from a purely personal point of view ("how does THAT affect ME?") while religions with a deity will all place their God at the center of the universe and make all serve the God. It is the pureness and simpleness of this point of view that will often trigger the decision to become a Satanist ... but it was the erroneous and incomplete explanations of Satan offered by the Bible that started the process of discovery leading to the decision to become a Satanist.

While most religions clearly state the need for a God, and offer their God as the true one, Satanism asks if a God is really needed, and if we can get by without one, by just being the best and the most that we can be ... it asks if you would rather be an obidient pet sheep to a dominant God, or would you rather rule yourself ... and this is what appeals to those who make the choice ...


If I'm going to keep it real as a Satanist and as an individual, I have to give credit where credit is due and tell you that this was the most succinct and insightful paragraph and a half that I have read on the boards in a long time. Kudos to you Gilles.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#32525 - 12/04/09 12:45 PM Re: BTW Maw, my friend and critic. [Re: Jake999]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
Thanks Jake, I;m not a Satnist (LaVeyan), but I appreciate your praise. To me you are a voice of reason on a Dark Ryde
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#32526 - 12/04/09 01:49 PM Re: BTW Maw, my friend and critic. [Re: GillesdeRais]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: GillesdeRais
Once it is realized that Satanism only means the following of a few simple ideas and concepts, apparently first offered by Satan, and NOT the actual following of and worshipping of Satan as the new God, it is finally made clear that Satanism places the individual at the center of the universe, to look at things from a purely personal point of view ...

In the original Church of Satan there was never any question of "worship" [in the subservient sense]; it was rather a case of acknowledgment and allegiance in a very clear, real sense - both of which vanished in 1975, after which "Satan" became merely a symbolic reflection of Anton LaVey's attitudes and whims. [Hence my contention that after that year there was certainly an ASLV fan club, but nothing that could be called a "church", and certainly no Satan.]

 Quote:
While most religions clearly state the need for a God, and offer their God as the true one, Satanism asks if a God is really needed, and if we can get by without one, by just being the best and the most that we can be ... it asks if you would rather be an obidient pet sheep to a dominant God, or would you rather rule yourself ... and this is what appeals to those who make the choice ...

Satanism never even bothered to ask that question; it denied any need for subservient worship a priori. The Church of Satan didn't even deny the existence of a theoretical universal God; it just assumed that if he existed, he didn't give a damn about us, so there was no reason to give a damn about him. (Satanic Bible #40). Satan, on the other hand, was present to us in our very individual consciousness; to invoke him was to apprehend the furnace underlying each fire: "I have taken thy name as a part of myself."

I will of course credit "atheistic satanists" for at least being honest about what they are and aren't; and certainly one is free to call oneself anything one wishes [and wants to take the time to argue/justify to others]. This does not affect my central point, which is that in established English "Satanist" and "Atheist" are two different, and incompatible concepts. You can jam them together as exhaustively and painstakingly as you like; nevertheless intelligent onlookers will still consider you hypocrites with a psychological need for "dark glamour" at best, confused cowards at worst.

Back in the 1960s, and still perhaps today, there was a somewhat similar phenomenon: "Christian atheists", which Anton dismissed on page #43 of the SB. His objection in 1969 was the same as mine in 1975.

As previously, I don't harp on this point to offend anyone here. Satatheists [well, how about that term?] have constructed a house for themselves that they like; it's theirs to live in. I merely do what Anton insisted that Satanism should do: hold a mirror up so that you can see yourselves with objectivity, not narcissism. Beyond that, as Ben Kenobi said to Luke, "You must do as you think best, of course."
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#32598 - 12/06/09 08:56 PM Re: BTW Maw, my friend and critic. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Hi Dr. Aquino (and Jake),

I have to admit that I am sometimes confused by the opinions and “beliefs,” which Dr. LaVey and the early church held.

I have just finished reading Peter Gilmore’s book The Satanic Scriptures.

To be honest I don’t know how high priest Gilmour is regarded by 600 Club members, and whether his work is regarded as important and relevant, but it seems that the church currently believes that Satan is a symbol and that it was always this way.

But is this merely a revision of the “nature or category” of Satan as a result of the 1975 crisis?

I have to admit that I have trouble seeing the post 1975 church as just a Dr. LaVey fan club, but I think I may understand why you may think this Dr. Aquino, based on the implementation of Phase Four, and the questions regarding the possible sale of the Priesthood of Mendes.

I recall reading in your book on the Church of Satan that you believed that Dr. La Vey was sincere in the execution of his office as high priest and that he had in fact made a real pact with Satan.

It was so long ago and unfortunately I was just a youngster thousands of miles away.

I see myself as an Atheist, but I do love the sorts of symbolism which Dr. LaVey employed. I also enjoy that old film-noir aesthetic and films like Caligari and Phibes and Nightmare Alley.

I adopted this philosophy of Dr. LaVey’s because it seemed to be a culmination of many of those aspects of western thought and art, which really meant something to me.

To be the absolute subject of the world; to order that world in ways which would delight me and yet cause me to question myself and my world in some deeper sense - this seemed to me to be Dr. LaVey’s gift.

I do not know what fires the core of the absolute subject – I assume it is just me.

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#32601 - 12/06/09 09:55 PM Re: BTW Maw, my friend and critic. [Re: ]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Just one more post.

The idea of it fascinates me.

How can one have a Church of Satan?

Is it to be a more or less tightly knit group of grottos which are publicly known in some sense; headed by a well qualified, well trained and committed priesthood, with a central grotto and high priest, who somehow co-ordinates national activity and/or policy from a distance?

Or is it submerged with a hidden priesthood and no grottos or else secret grottos, with a high priest, who insists that one gain tangible results in the real world, rather than being focused on full-time church membership?

Can real world results and a full-time church membership and involvement be possible, or rather could one make a sort of career out of being a member of the Priesthood of Mendes?

Does the notion of a Christian church somehow influence the way a Satanic church is constructed, seen and run?

How can the Church of Satan be a church? How does it function outside of the conceptual framework of a Christian church?

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#32604 - 12/06/09 10:37 PM Re: BTW Maw, my friend and critic. [Re: ]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1

How can one have a Church of Satan?

Is it to be a more or less tightly knit group of grottos which are publicly known in some sense; headed by a well qualified, well trained and committed priesthood, with a central grotto and high priest, who somehow co-ordinates national activity and/or policy from a distance?

Or is it submerged with a hidden priesthood and no grottos or else secret grottos, with a high priest, who insists that one gain tangible results in the real world, rather than being focused on full-time church membership?

Can real world results and a full-time church membership and involvement be possible, or rather could one make a sort of career out of being a member of the Priesthood of Mendes?


At times, The Church of Satan has been a bit of each of these things, but it's not so easy to tie it down. It's a bit like trying to nail jello to a wall. It defies being one thing to everyone, and that's pretty much by design.

The Church of Satan requires nothing from its membership insofar as attendance goes, or participation at all, if all one desires is simply to affiliate with the Church for personal reasons. If they DO choose to become an active member of a group, then that can be pursued as one sees fit.

There have been times when the Grotto system was very active, and there have been times when it's been out of favor. One problem with "church sponsored" grottos is that the Church can become painted with a rather broad brush, colored by the activities of the individual grotto for good or ill. If, for instance, a grotto becomes a conduit for illegal activities, that reflects upon the Church of Satan and can cause the church as a whole to become scrutinized for the acts of an individual grotto. It's no wonder that there's a reluctance to form franchises under the auspices of The Church of Satan.

Even in the 70's when I ran The Melek Taus Chapel, we were on our own, as far as operations went. Central did appreciate reading news reports of our achievements when we were written up for things that were interesting, like the baptism of a child of members, etc. If we had been caught dealing dope (never would have happened), we knew that the first words out of Central would be "Melek Taus Chapel who?"

People also seem to equate the Satanic Priesthood with the Christian priests who minister to their flocks. This is not the case. Satanic Priests have no "pastoral duties." A Priest of Satan's focus is on the furthering of Church goals. Sometimes this can lead to personal opportunities as well, but there's no "misistering to the flock." I've known a few priests who've involved themselves in the lives of the members of their groups, but it's not a requirement. I never would have been involved in my group member's lives. It tends to run counter to the idea of being responsible for one's own actions, and really, I had a life of my own outside of the Chapel.

There's really no correlation between a "christian" church and The Church of Satan, although there has always been talk of the vision of "pitchforks and pentagrams replacing crosses on steeples. Maybe on the pleasure domes.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#32608 - 12/07/09 01:52 AM Re: BTW Maw, my friend and critic. [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
How can one have a Church of Satan?

Is it to be a more or less tightly knit group of grottos which are publicly known in some sense; headed by a well qualified, well trained and committed priesthood, with a central grotto and high priest, who somehow co-ordinates national activity and/or policy from a distance?

This was the original idea during 1970-75 (the period when the Church expanded beyond simply a San Francisco operation at the LaVeys' home).

No Christian or other pre-existing institution was used as a model. The original idea, as discussed in the Church's 1968 handout on "Requirements for the Satanic Clergy" (A#8 of The Church of Satan), was to train and ordain Ministers and Priests. The essential distinction of the latter was that they would be empowered and expected to create and head branches of the Church outside of SF. [This was prior to the degree system, which was instituted in 1970. That system formalized the Priesthood as the III° and eliminated the office of Minister, which in 1971 would be replaced by that of Regional Agent (not a degree, and held until 1975 by either II°s or III°s - cf. COS A#27).]

Thus the original 1970 Grottos were all the creations of Priests/Priestesses: Charles Steenbarger's Plutonian in Denver, Wayne West's Babylon in Detroit, and my Nineveh in Louisville.

Within a year it became apparent that some of the more prominent II°s around the country were attracting local groups of interested, and affiliating, individuals. The LaVeys therefore decided to authorize Grottos under II° as well as III° Grotto Leaders.

Many of these Grottos functioned quite smoothly and commendably, but others [as recounted in COS] were short-lived. This preempted the LaVeys', and my, and other III°+s' time & tranquillity. Anton visualized himself as Satan's representative on Earth, not as a babysitter.

At first we tried to address this by developing and distributing the "Grotto Administration Manual" (COS A#48). This was respected by nicely-functioning Grottos and ignored by the problem ones. Which by 1974 led to Anton's decision to institute extensive probationary periods for would-be Grottos before formally chartering them. This was the state of affairs in 1975, when there were still quite a few nice Grottos around; the problem ones were disallowed pretty quickly.

As for the Priesthood of Mendes III°, it continued to develop and formalize its identity during this same period. The original 1968-70 examination (discussed briefly in COS p. 74-6) was soon considered to be too "narrow" for what a true Satanic Priesthood should encompass, so in 1973 the LaVeys asked me to redo it (p. 322). This resulted in the "Letter of III° Nomination" (A#89), which Anton approved and was sent out by him to all prospective III°s 1973-75.

This was the state of affairs when in May 1975 Anton made his decision to deformalize both the Grotto system and the degree system. Henceforth all such terms would be simply at his whim, with no relevance to a higher, impersonal, or sacred standard (as, for example, enunciated in the Satanic Baptismal Rite (COS A#20) or the III° Ceremony of Ordination (COS A#65))

 Quote:
Or is it submerged with a hidden priesthood and no grottos or else secret grottos, with a high priest, who insists that one gain tangible results in the real world, rather than being focused on full-time church membership?

This is of course the position that Anton took after 1975, in which the "Church of Satan" was simply the sum-total of his friends and fans, "Satan" merely a metaphor of convenience for his fetishes, and titles such as "Priest" and "Magister" nothing more than marks of vague personal favor. I doubt that Jake, for instance, ever undertook a curriculum of formal study or examination for any degree, or was expected to handle "field" responsibilities away from the premises of 6114. [Which isn't to cast aspersions on either his personal integrity or his selfless efforts around/within 6114, or whatever/wherever his Melek Taus Chapel.*]

 Originally Posted By: *
Prior to 1975 "chapel" was a rarely-used, unofficial term to describe groups of members too small or irregularly-functioning to qualify even as provisional Grottos. Examples: Priestess Margaret Wendall's San Jose Bubastis Chapel of the Santa Cruz Karnak Grotto, or Warlock William Murray's Carpathia Chapel in Winnemucca, Nevada.

I might add that this post-1975 situation was obviously not evident to a number of persons who subsequently joined the "Church" on the assumption that it was still the functioning, sincere organization it had been previously. Many of these eventually found their way to the Temple of Set "sadder but wiser"; others just quit in disillusionment or disgust, or simply faded away without bothering.

 Quote:
Can real world results and a full-time church membership and involvement be possible, or rather could one make a sort of career out of being a member of the Priesthood of Mendes?

As should be clear from the COS documents, profane education, accomplishment, and experience were all considered to be relevant factors in any initiatory degree evaluation. The test of a Black Magician is not just what he knows, but what he does with it, and with what judgment, artistry, and of course success. But underlying all of this, and both intrinsic and essential to it, was a commitment to Satan as the genius and origin of this discretionary consciousness in all sentient beings. That is why the original, authentic Church of Satan was the Church of Satan, and not merely a club of ASLV admirers and emulators.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#32621 - 12/07/09 08:03 AM Re: Jesuit grading and testing system [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I did indeed take the examination for elevation to the II* for the Church of Satan and served as an Agent as well. (Of course, since I was granted the II° without the knowledge of Dr. Aquino, my status there and as an Agent was obviously of inferior quality.) The duties of an Agent were to accept new members, should they wish to do so, to serve as a go-between to Central and, if they desired, to form and operate groups, such as the Melek Taus Chapel, in which those members and other members of the Church of Satan might participate.

As I have said before, any further elevation I may have received within the Church was granted to me by Dr. LaVey himself, as indeed was his option, for services rendered to the Church of Satan. No, I didn't BUY them with cash or goods. I was an NCO in the military. The amount of cash that I could be expected to come up with to "bribe my way" into a Priesthood would be laughable. I suppose buying Dr. LaVey a burger at the Jack In The Box on Lombard might have been considered a bribe, but I had to eat anyway. Besides, Basil Ratbone (LaVey's pet gray rat) shared my fries. I NEVER saw anything that would indicate that others were funneling cash or goods to the Church or the LaVeys either.

One thing that we did hear a lot was that there was a feeling of "as above, so below," and that since the Priests and Magisters represented the Church of Satan to the outside world, it would be ludicrous to simply hand out degrees of elevation based solely on an examination. The reason, I'm sure you know people that can pass a test with flying colors, but can't apply the knowledge to "save their souls." There are Mensans who are living in their mother's basements at 40 and have never held a job, there are PhDs in Physics who are stocking shelves because they can't make it in their field, there are military men who are passed up the ranks by virtue of testing and time in grade that can't make it in the field, officers who climb socially to that magical grade of Major and sit out their 20... why would The Church of Satan wish to cast its lot with someone who was such a shining example of success? At least while I was in the conversations, there was a feeling that one should show what they could do with what they had learned. A professional who contributed to his specialty outside of the Church indicated that his contributions within the Church as an elevated member could be expected to be commensurate with that elevated degree. I see nothing wrong with that at all.

Yes, post 1975, the Church of Satan functioned without the permission of Dr. Aquino. Dr. LaVey was a sad and broken man and cried constantly because Dr. Aquino was no longer there. There were constant problems arising because Dr. Aquino wasn't there and therefore people had to run to for aid and assistance in a world in which they were scarcely able to cope. In fact, we had such a hard time taking down all of the statues and laudatory plaques that had been erected in honor of Dr. Aquino that from 1975 until Dr. LaVey's death, we had to devote thousands of manhours to simply patching the holes in the Black House walls where they had stood and hung.

But that's why our Witches wore short skirts.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#32636 - 12/07/09 08:56 PM Re: BTW Maw, my friend and critic. [Re: Jake999]
Gemini Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 56
Loc: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
 Originally Posted By: GillesdeRais


Once it is realized that Satanism only means the following of a few simple ideas and concepts, apparently first offered by Satan, and NOT the actual following of and worshipping of Satan as the new God, it is finally made clear that Satanism places the individual at the center of the universe, to look at things from a purely personal point of view ("how does THAT affect ME?") while religions with a deity will all place their God at the center of the universe and make all serve the God. It is the pureness and simpleness of this point of view that will often trigger the decision to become a Satanist ... but it was the erroneous and incomplete explanations of Satan offered by the Bible that started the process of discovery leading to the decision to become a Satanist.

While most religions clearly state the need for a God, and offer their God as the true one, Satanism asks if a God is really needed, and if we can get by without one, by just being the best and the most that we can be ... it asks if you would rather be an obidient pet sheep to a dominant God, or would you rather rule yourself ... and this is what appeals to those who make the choice ...


If I'm going to keep it real as a Satanist and as an individual, I have to give credit where credit is due and tell you that this was the most succinct and insightful paragraph and a half that I have read on the boards in a long time. Kudos to you Gilles.


I'm going to have to go ahead and second that. If you can't understand Satanism after reading that, you're probably never going to.
_________________________
http://www.soundcloud.com/onewingedangel

-Gemini

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#32643 - 12/08/09 02:17 AM Re: Jesuit grading and testing system [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
I did indeed take the examination for elevation to the II* for the Church of Satan and served as an Agent as well. (Of course, since I was granted the II° without the knowledge of Dr. Aquino, my status there and as an Agent was obviously of inferior quality.) The duties of an Agent were to accept new members, should they wish to do so, to serve as a go-between to Central and, if they desired, to form and operate groups, such as the Melek Taus Chapel, in which those members and other members of the Church of Satan might participate.

As previously, I do not question either your sincerity or your administrative capabilities in the least.

 Quote:
As I have said before, any further elevation I may have received within the Church was granted to me by Dr. LaVey himself, as indeed was his option, for services rendered to the Church of Satan. No, I didn't BUY them with cash or goods.

The irony of Anton's decision to sell the Satanic degrees, as documented in COS, is that they had such prestige and glamor as they did precisely because of the accomplishments and reputation of those ladies and gentlemen around the country who had earned and manifested them in the previous nine years. Once all these departed in 1975, Anton's ability to sell them on the backs of our legacy evaporated along with us. With whom thereafter would a newly-designated "Priest" or "Magister" interact as peers and colleagues? The answer to that is self-evident over the subsequent years.

 Quote:
I NEVER saw anything that would indicate that others were funneling cash or goods to the Church or the LaVeys either.

Nor should you have. The 8th Article of the Church of Satan's 1971 incorporation states:

 Originally Posted By: COS A#156
Eighth: The property of this corporation is irrevocably dedicated to charitable and religious purposes and no part of the net income or assets of this organization shall ever inure to the benefit of any director, officer, or member thereof or to the benefit of any private persons. Upon dissolution or winding up of the corporation, its assets, remaining after payment, or provision for payment, of all debts and liabilities of this corporation shall be distributed to a non-profit fund, foundation, or corporation which is organized and operated exclusively for charitable and religious purposes, and which has established its tax-exempt status under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.

Nevertheless in Diane's subsequent palimony suit and Anton's consequent bankruptcy, both of them stated that they had treated the Church as a "business partnership", which in bankruptcy court testimony Anton amended to "sole proprietorship". If you did not handle the Church's bank accounts, you were out of the loop in that respect.

 Quote:
A professional who contributed to his specialty outside of the Church indicated that his contributions within the Church as an elevated member could be expected to be commensurate with that elevated degree. I see nothing wrong with that at all.

Contributions of talent, influence, and reflected prestige were always welcomed and appreciated by the Church. But until 1975 they were never confused with nor "rewarded" by the initiatory degree system. In 1973, for instance, I presented Sammy Davis, Jr. the white Baphomet of an [honorary] Warlock II° onstage at the Circle Star (!) Theater because that's where we agreed his recognition by the Church was merited. [Indeed, as few realized and we never disclosed, Sammy had had a longtime interest in the Black Arts and was more than casually skilled in them.]

 Quote:
Yes, post 1975, the Church of Satan functioned without the permission of Dr. Aquino ...

Cute, but that is not the issue at all. The real question is whether it continued to acknowledge Satan as its source and patron, hence could consequently be properly called a church of same. And that answer is quite clearly, and historically/factually, no.

Analyses of the changing nature of activities at 6114 California Street are just that: descriptions and evaluations of time-periods and the ideas/events therein. There is no point in getting angry about any of this, any more than about whether atheists should simply and properly be called atheists. In one of the Church of Satan's more charming original rituals, "The Madness of Andelsprutz" (COS A#4), the asylum inmate deemed the most insane, hence suited for release to the outside world, was given [among other tools] "a magnifying glass to detect imperfections ... and a can of black spray paint to instantly cover up inconvenient imperfections". Q.E.D.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#32649 - 12/08/09 08:19 AM Re: Jesuit grading and testing system [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I know well of Andelsprutz. Was it hard for you to get the spray paint off? I would think that it would clash with your uniform.

You keep assuming that people are getting angry while sounding like little more than that woman (or man) that we've all had who broke off from us for some reason, and then spent the rest of their lives trying to tell the world what bastards we were for jilting THEM. Get over it.

If you spent as much time trying to build up The Temple of Set and you have trying to negate The Church of Satan, the Temple of Set might actually be preeminent in the minds of those seeking initiation into darker side, rather than as having the asterisk of "formed by a former member of The Church of Satan." Again, get over it. YOU left the Church of Satan. YOU formed the Temple of Set. Your posts and constant carping only show the sad inner workings of a man who seems to be incapable of just moving on and "reigning in hell."

Sorry, but that's the way it looks, and this from a man who's always said that he respected you for at least believing enough in yourself to move on when you disagreed with the organization. Seems like I was wrong about you.

And this is not to denigrate you or lessen your achievements over the decades. Those around here who seem to think that being Satanic is in getting stoned and behaving like morons should be hanging on your every word, but it seems that almost every post you make seems to smack of a personal agenda or self promotion. Sad, when there is a lot people COULD be learning from you.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#32654 - 12/08/09 02:08 PM Re: Jesuit grading and testing system [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
I know well of Andelsprutz. Was it hard for you to get the spray paint off? I would think that it would clash with your uniform.

You keep assuming that people are getting angry while sounding like little more than that woman (or man) that we've all had who broke off from us for some reason, and then spent the rest of their lives trying to tell the world what bastards we were for jilting THEM. Get over it.

I am comfortable letting readers decide for themselves which one of us is being defensive and insulting.

Where the Church of Satan and Anton LaVey are concerned, I have always [and not just here] tried to be factual and objective. In my experience, most have understood and appreciated that. Some who have personal agendæ or who bought unquestioningly into Anton's/sycophants' post-1975 revisionism have not. I can't help that, but I don't think I should fall silent concerning the truth just for their illusions and comfort.

 Quote:
If you spent as much time trying to build up The Temple of Set and you have trying to negate The Church of Satan, the Temple of Set might actually be preeminent in the minds of those seeking initiation into darker side, rather than as having the asterisk of "formed by a former member of The Church of Satan."

Actually the Temple of Set is doing just fine, thank you: since 1975 tens of thousands of present and former Setians who have enjoyed it, an enormous amount of Temple/Order/Pylon literature, ongoing annual international, national & regional conclaves, and several Internet resources and forums. I retired as High Priest of Set in 1996 and am also very pleased that I am not only "unnecessary" but that in all areas of its interest the Temple has long since evolved substantially beyond my expertise. I don't discuss it here because it is Setian, not Satanic; although I have answered the occasional question where pertinent.

 Quote:
Again, get over it. YOU left the Church of Satan. YOU formed the Temple of Set. Your posts and constant carping only show the sad inner workings of a man who seems to be incapable of just moving on and "reigning in hell."

Sorry, but that's the way it looks, and this from a man who's always said that he respected you for at least believing enough in yourself to move on when you disagreed with the organization. Seems like I was wrong about you.

Well, once again I am content to let readers judge for themselves as to whether my historical posts here about the Church and Anton amount to "carping", or rather to an honest attempt to set the record straight where I have the background, credentials, and experience to do so. Just as obviously, readers are welcome to take or leave my comments; I don't sit up nights worrying about it.

Why did I write COS, and why do I continue to talk about it and Anton? Because, as I discussed in the book, I think that it and he are too important and consequential to be relegated to the mists of the past, or to be remembered only as cheap, phony aberrations. It was a good institution built by many good, honorable, and bright people; and he was a good, decent, kind, and brilliant man. If you think that everything he did, and those around him did in the name of the "Church" after 1975 continue to substantiate that, that's up to you, Densley, Gilmore, et al. to argue.

I will tell you something else. Do you think that I enjoyed anything about the 1975 disintegration of the Church? Or Anton's fall from being the High Priest of Satan to what one national magazine later dismissed as a "junkyard intellectual"? I was his senior lieutenant and [in his words] "Devil-Son". I loved him as much as my own father, and Diane as much as my own sister. I would unhesitatingly have stopped a bullet for him anytime. I took the stand that I did in 1975 because I was a Priest of Satan, period. So if you want to sneer about my motives or emotions either then or now, you can kiss my ass.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#32656 - 12/08/09 03:02 PM Re: Jesuit grading and testing system [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

I will tell you something else. Do you think that I enjoyed anything about the 1975 disintegration of the Church? Or Anton's fall from being the High Priest of Satan to what one national magazine later dismissed as a "junkyard intellectual"? I was his senior lieutenant and [in his words] "Devil-Son". I loved him as much as my own father, and Diane as much as my own sister. I would unhesitatingly have stopped a bullet for him anytime. I took the stand that I did in 1975 because I was a Priest of Satan, period. So if you want to sneer about my motives or emotions either then or now, you can kiss my ass.


The problem I have is that you seem to think you have some kind of lock on that feeling about LaVey and that post 1975, anyone involved with the Church of Satan was some sycophantic idiot that was just along for the ride. I can easily echo your emotion considering LaVey, although I was fond of Lady Diane, I had less contact with her. I too had feelings for him that surpassed those I had for my father. I too would have taken that bullet. And make no mistake. If he had told me he wanted one delivered, I would have gladly done it. So, as far as ass kissing goes, pucker up.

And I dealt with Densley first hand. I could see what she was as a manipulator and a disaster waiting to happen. Had I been in the position to stay and try to protect Dr. LaVey and The Church, I would have. All I could do is tell him, "Watch her, Boss" before had to do my duty for my country on another assignment overseas. And that eats away at me to this day. That's a prime reason I'm a pitbull when it comes to the man that I would have died for.

To have someone say that we were nothing post 1975 IS insulting. If you can't understand that, I can't help you. But you're right. People can read. And the ones that would think any less of Dr. LaVey are people I don't need.

Another quick factoid... I am no supporter of Densley (Barton), Gilmore, or any of their clique. I am a supporter of LaVey and HIS vision for the Church of Satan. Like the presidency under Bush, I can only hope that one day people will come to their senses.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#32657 - 12/08/09 03:13 PM Re: Jesuit grading and testing system [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
[ I was his senior lieutenant and [in his words] "Devil-Son".


On a lighter note, he told me I was his "Luca Brasi".

http://www.joker.si/images/clank/2144_510.jpg
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#32658 - 12/08/09 04:16 PM Church of Satan Perspectives [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
The problem I have is that you seem to think you have some kind of lock on that feeling about LaVey and that post 1975, anyone involved with the Church of Satan was some sycophantic idiot that was just along for the ride.

I believe that I have stated here several times that I have seen no reason to question either your sincerity or competence as an associate/assistant of Anton's, or, for that matter, your affection for Anton & Diane as individuals.

As to whether the Church of Satan existed as such beyond the mere exploitation of its name past 1975, you are, as I have also said, more than welcome to contend that if you wish.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#32667 - 12/08/09 05:55 PM Fiddler's Green [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
Can we not agree that our personal opinions of Satanism / CoS are based on our own, subjective experiences?

Actually I think that Jake and I would respect & enjoy one another's company & conversation - maybe after a hotfoot apiece just for the hell of it.

I am also aware that my religious convictions may occasionally seem extreme, if not meant to be abrasively so.

 Originally Posted By: H.P. Lovecraft, The Case of Charles Dexter Ward
There seemed to lurk in Joseph Curwen's bearing some cryptic, sardonic arrogance, as if he had come to find all human beings dull through having moved among stranger and more potent entities.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#32681 - 12/08/09 07:59 PM Re: Fiddler's Green [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



To Dr. Aquino.

I personally believe that tendering your resignation to the LaVey’s must have been one of the hardest things you have had to do. I can feel it when I read your book.

Did Dr. LaVey, the Church and the Priesthood of Mendes have a real infernal mandate or not? This seems to be the central question for me. If there was a real infernal mandate then the actions taken in relation to the 1975 crisis seem reasonable to me.

Unfortunately I cannot answer this question, regarding a real infernal mandate, as I was not there.

Just from looking through the enormous amount of material you have provided in your book, it seems to me, that there was a consistent message coming out of the Church in the early to mid 1970’s, via interviews and articles.

Then we have ‘Quo Vadis,’ published in the Hoof in July/August 1974 with its rather startling content.

Then in September 1974 there is the release of the ‘Phase Four’ document.

I feel that something is up here, but I can’t figure out all the angles. I am trying to figure out Dr. LaVey’s thinking here, the reasoning behind Phase Four.

I can understand his critique of a huddling membership and his concern over the performance of grottos and the way the grottos may reflect on the Church, but I feel that there is something else here, which I can’t put a finger on.

To Jake

Thanks very kindly for the information you have provided. There’s no substitute for learning from people who were actually there.

The CoS has to be one of the most interesting institutions I personally have come across.

Your mention of Magistra Barton and her agendas really drew my attention!

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#32708 - 12/09/09 12:23 AM Alternate Futures [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
... I feel that something is up here, but I can’t figure out all the angles. I am trying to figure out Dr. LaVey’s thinking here, the reasoning behind Phase Four.

I can understand his critique of a huddling membership and his concern over the performance of grottos and the way the grottos may reflect on the Church, but I feel that there is something else here, which I can’t put a finger on.

The simplest, and probably most accurate answer is that throughout its decade the Church of Satan was always a spontaneously, often comically haphazard "work in progress", not a neatly-preprogrammed package. Anton started it with the idea that it would be a local San Francisco group meeting in his home. Suddenly it was a nationwide phenomenon, and neither he nor Diane had any experience with an extended organization, or any idea what an "institutional" Church of Satan could/should be. He also felt it crucial to maintain his "Black Pope" image, which required his appearing to be, so to speak, in "absolute Black Magical control of everything".

The more the national membership grew and interacted in interGrotto and then regional conclave activities, along with a blizzard of local, Regional Agent, etc. newsletters, the less the Church resembled an SS marching formation and the more it resembled a herd of cats. The "Phase 4" announcement was Anton's effort to put the toothpaste back in the tube, which by 1974 was already too late. Even if Anton had never decided to sell the degrees, the Church was clearly heading towards a decision point concerning its structural future. It would either need to develop into a truly decentralized organization in which the High Priest became more of a chief executive than an autocrat, or it would dismantle every organized, structural extension and implode back into a 6114 existence with unstructured member-at-large affiliations in a "Movement" mythology.

Had the Church taken the organizational/decentral route, I think it would probably have evolved into something structurally very much like the Temple of Set, though whether it would have sustained its also-rapidly-constricting Judæo-Christian imagery is also questionable. Even in its earliest days, as exemplified by the multicultural "daemons" listed in the SB, the Church was extending far beyond the old, stereotypical J/C scarecrow-Satan.

It's somewhere between great fun and barfmeout to imagine some of the directions in which the C/S might have gone. Anton was an extrovert and a showman like Walt Disney; visualize a Satanic theme park or perhaps a Satanic Vegas resort. Satanic variations on the Playboy Clubs, with horned & barbed-tailed hostesses? [In the '60s Anton was envisioning not just local churches with tridents instead of crosses atop their steeples, but "Pleasure Domes" a la Kenneth Anger in case local Satanists felt like dropping in for an occasional Bacchanale.] By the 1970s Satan & Satanism were fast becoming perfectly community-acceptable terms, sort of on the most exotic extreme of New-Ageism. It was understandable to the average person both in philosophy and in imagery.

[None of this was/is remotely possible with the Temple of Set. From the moment of its founding it [& I as HP] were adamantly anti-media, and remained so until forced into public dialogue by the 1980s' "Satanic panic". Set is generally unknown outside of Egyptology, and Setian philosophy is very complex & abstract. And of course we never bothered with real estate; when we felt the need for Egyptian atmosphere in an international conclave, we just booked the Luxor.]
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#32711 - 12/09/09 01:33 AM Re: Alternate Futures [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Thanks very much Dr. Aquino for all this information regarding Dr. LaVey and the CoS.

He and his organisation are remarkable in my view.

I definitely have to sit down and go through your book again.

I have to admit I am a bit of a philosophical ham. Whether I am any good at it is questionable, but I do love the subject of philosophy.

When you say that Setian philosophy is complex and abstract that tends to tempt me to study it.

I tend to like complex information.

I have already downloaded a copy of your book on the TOS and will read it when I can.

There is so much to read and so little time.

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#32716 - 12/09/09 05:46 AM Re: Church of Satan Perspectives [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I think there are as Maw stated personal differences here.

I look at the CoS, as having 3 phases:
Aquino's years
Jake's years
and the Gilmore years.

You guys have more in common than not, below is the short version:

You were both members of the CoS when it's leadership meant something.

When it was respected, or at the very least made sense.

Your personal relationships, and the knowledge that you both have to share with those of us here is a gift.

You both share a military background, and understand things in regards to personal honour, and who you would fight for.

You both are not happy with what the CoS has evolved into.

BIG NEWS FLASH
Most members here are not happy with what the CoS has evolved into with the Gilmore era.

A bunch of the members here think the current CoS under Gilmore sucks, is a joke, and were banned or just said NO to it.

I think it would help, if you guys just look at it that way.
Your individual time periods, outlooks, and experiences are so different but yet so much the same.

I am thankful that you BOTH choose to talk about and discuss your experiences, and knowledge with all of us here.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#32727 - 12/09/09 08:09 PM Re: Church of Satan Perspectives [Re: Morgan]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Hi Morgan (and other interested members),

May I ask you some questions?

I just wanted to clarify my reasons for asking these questions, first though, before I ask.

I am very interested in Dr. LaVey and the history of the Church, and how the past and present hierarchy of the Church are regarded by members today and why they are regarded as such.

This is a learning experience for me.

Here are the questions:

• Why do many members dislike High Priest Gilmore and Magistra Barton so much?

• Has their leadership been somehow destructive to the church, and if so why?

What specifically interests me at the moment is what actually happened to the church after Dr. LaVey passed away.

It seems to me that there were two main problems, which arose upon Dr. LaVey’s death.

• The first and most obvious was that one had to mourn the man and try to move on.

• The second was that Dr. LaVey’s organisation had to go on and survive.

At the moment it is the second question which interests me most.

My own prior studies suggest that it was Magistra Barton, who took on the responsibility for guaranteeing the Church’s future and that this is precisely what she did.

After a period of time she then appointed - a then Magister Gilmore - to the position of High Priest and some time later Magistra Nadramia to the position of High Priestess.

I believe that after Dr. LaVey’s death there were power struggles and legal battles, but when the smoke had cleared it was Magistra Barton who held the reins of the Church and guaranteed the church’s existence.

Is this how you see it?

It also seems to me that High Priest Gilmore may run the Church differently, but he still holds to the basic tenants of Dr. LaVey.

Is this how you see it?

Sorry to ask all this, but I am a curious ole fossil.

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#32733 - 12/09/09 09:32 PM SF Chronicle Article [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
"SATAN'S DEN IN GREAT DISREPAIR:
Relatives of S.F. hellhound Anton LaVey battle over 'Black House'"
- by Don Lattin, _Chronicle_ Religion Writer
_The San Francisco Chronicle_
Monday, January 25, 1999, page #A-1
©1999 _San Francisco Chronicle_
URL: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/01/25/MN77329.DTL

If the condition of the infamous Black House is any indication, San Francisco's Church of Satan has really gone to hell.

For three decades, this sinister Richmond District home, painted black and smoky purple, was the worldwide headquarters of Anton LaVey, whose blend of sex, Satan and showmanship made him the media's favorite devil worshiper.

Today, the property at 6114 California St. looks like the Addams Family home after a Saturday night frat party. Smashed furniture and a soiled mattress lay amid a mountain of garbage in the small front yard, behind a tall chain-link fence topped with barbed wire.

Adding insult to injury, some blasphemous graffiti artist has scrawled the words "Jesus Rulz" on the mail slot.

LaVey, 67, died of heart disease in 1997, two days before Halloween, at (of all places) St. Mary's Hospital in San Francisco.

Often called "the Black Pope", LaVey has left behind a messy legacy of lawsuits, family infighting and decaying real estate.

Earlier this month, lawyers for LaVey's two grown daughters, Zeena Schreck and Karla LaVey, along with an attorney representing Blanche Barton - his last consort, high priestess and mother of his 5-year-old son, Xerxes - appeared before a probate judge in San Francisco Superior Court.

Friday a tentative settlement was reached in the case.

At issue was a handwritten will dated March 9, 1995, in which LaVey left Barton "all writings, artwork, property and holdings". Continuing royalties from his books, including his 1969 manifesto, the _Satanic Bible_, were to be held in a trust for Xerxes "unless Blanche Barton deems otherwise".

Karla LaVey challenged the will in a lawsuit filed last year, contending that her father "was not of sound and disposing mind and was under the influence of medication".

She further alleged that Barton had "undue influence" over her ailing father because, as his only caregiver, she "threatened to leave him if he did not do what she wanted".

In response, Barton posted a proclamation on the Internet, a favorite vehicle for satanic communication, accusing Karla LaVey of falsely "claiming the title of High Priestess of the Church of Satan for herself".

"Though she has reluctantly agreed to a handful of interviews over recent years," Barton wrote, "she hasn't participated in the actual operation of the Church for a very long time."

Barton has also sought to deny any inheritance to Anton LaVey's younger daughter, Schreck, noting that she joined a rival satanic sect, the Temple of Set, and publicly denounced her "un-father" in 1990.

Both Karla LaVey and Schreck were the product of LaVey's common-law marriage to Diane Hegarty from 1962 to 1986.[1] One of the highlights of that unholy union was Schreck's 1967 satanic baptism at the Black House, when she was 3 years old. The liturgy featured a naked 30-year-old priestess draped over the altar, breathing heavily, while Anton LaVey intoned, "Hail Satan!"

LaVey lost ownership of the Black House in 1991, when a San Francisco judge ordered him to sell the property, along with his satanic memorabilia, and split the money with his estranged wife. Included among the devilish artifacts were a shrunken head, a reproduction of King Tut's sarcophagus, and a stuffed wolf.

Despite the liquidation sale, the Black Pope was able to remain in the Black House by selling the property to a friend, San Francisco real estate developer Donald Werby, who let LaVey live out his final years in the notorious home.

After LaVey's death, Barton started a fund-raising campaign to buy the house back and turn it into a historic landmark, hoping to create a San Francisco shrine to the birthplace of latter-day devil worship.

Just before she was evicted last summer, Barton sent a letter to members of the church, calling the property a priceless piece of satanic history.

"Its roots went all the way to Hell," she wrote. "Now Anton LaVey is gone, and the people who own the property want to tear it down to build an apartment complex."

While Barton tried to raise money to save the Black House, several would-be satanists complained to the _Chronicle_ about lengthy delays in processing their $100 membership fees to join the church, which they sent to a San Francisco post office.

"The Church of Satan is dead as an entity," said one disgruntled member. "Its High Priests and Magisters have become nothing more than absentee landlords trying to convince those inside and out that they still exist so the money keeps coming in."

High Priestess Barton, who is now living in San Diego, declined a request for an interview.

But another church leader, Magister Peter Gilmore, disputes reports that the Church of Satan has gone to hell.

"The church is fine," said Gilmore, a church leader in New York City. "Part of the application process is testing people to see if they have patience."

"We want people to live their own lives, so we leave them hanging to see how they respond," he said. "You are your own God."

Attempts to reach Schreck and Karla LaVey through their attorneys were unsuccessful.

On Friday, lawyers for all three of the feuding devil worshipers filed a tentative settlement in the lawsuit over LaVey's estate.

Barton, Karla LaVey and Schreck agreed to split future royalties to Anton LaVey's works, including _The Satanic Rituals_, _The Devil's Notebook_, _The Compleat Witch_, and _Satan Takes a Holiday_.

Personal property - including a bed of nails, a devil-horned cap, a cape with red lining and and an autographed[2] Marilyn Monroe calendar - will be divided among the three.

Schreck and Karla LaVey agree "to release any and all right to operate, manage or direct the operations of the nonprofit corporation known as the Church of Satan".

Meanwhile, the future of the Black House remains uncertain. Barton nows says she has called off her campaign to raise $400,000 to buy the property, saying donations fell way short, and promises that donors' money will be returned.

"We aren't abandoning all hope for the Black House," she wrote in a follow-up letter. "We have been in contact with a number of organizations in San Francisco who make it their business to see that historically significant homes aren't destroyed."

Werby, the owner of the property, has his own troubles. He pleaded guilty in 1990 to two misdemeanor counts of statutory rape of underage prostitutes and to two misdemeanor counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor by offering a place for drug use.

Executives at Werby's Grosvenor Properties referred questions about the Black House to Werby's son, Todd, who said the home has been devilishly difficult to sell.

"We've talked to a few brokers, but it's not easily marketed as a house," he said. "It is in such a state of disrepair."

Property records show that a separate company, the Cass-Bagley Corp., has been set up as the legal owner of 6114 California St. Todd Werby said that corporation has no other holdings, and is partly owned by his father.

"We haven't applied for a demolition permit, but we look at it as a development site for condos," he said. "You could put three units there."

In her latest missive to fellow satanists, Barton says she still hopes a dark savior will appear to save the Black House.

"If someone's in the market for a notorious home that needs love and attention, he need look no further," she wrote. "Please do all you can - call that distant rich aunt of yours and convince her she really needs a change of scenery."


------------------------------------------------------------------------
LaVEY SETTLEMENT

How some of Anton LaVey's personal property would be divided in an out-of-court settlement filed Friday in San Francisco Superior Court, possibly ending a bitter fight over Church of Satan memorabilia.

-- To High Priestess Blanche Barton - Rasputin chair, bed of nails and vintage Gramophone.

-- To daughter Zeena Schreck - Vampire boy painting, devil horned cap, Tyrone Power "Nightmare Alley_ movie poster and one-third of LaVey's cremated remains.

-- To daughter Karla LaVey - Skull from ritual chamber, Satin Doll pinball machine, coffin and examination table.

-- Items of property to be divided by Karla LaVey and Zeena Schreck - autographed Marilyn Monroe calendar, magic mirror with demons and Byzantine phallus.

* * * * *
[1] Inaccurate in the case of Karla, who was Anton's daughter by his first wife Carole. Zeena was Anton's daughter by his second wife Diane.

[2] by Diane LaVey, who later acknowledged that she forged an inscription and signature "by MM".

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#32736 - 12/09/09 11:59 PM Re: SF Chronicle Article [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



My word Dr. Aquino, what a bloody mess!

Hmmm it seems a bit rotten doesn’t it?

So there was a handwritten will leaving Blanche Barton in charge of everything!

A handwritten will????

And the claim was that Dr. LaVey’s mind was unsound and he was under the influence of medication and that Barton was threatening to leave him if Dr. LaVey did not do what she told him to do?

I do not know if this is true, but I am suddenly outraged!

So the will may be illegitimate?

Barton hasn’t participated in the actual operation of the church for many years?

No more, no more. What in the hell went so wrong?

I tell you what - the T.O.S is looking real good right now from what I am currently reading.

The problem is I am an Atheist.

And my apologies Dr. Aquino, I have just found this article in your book on the CoS. I haven’t read that part of the book for some time and had forgotten just what was at stake.

Jake, if you are out there, can you add your own comments on this?

Man I am pissed off and I don’t usually get that way.

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#32738 - 12/10/09 12:21 AM Re: SF Chronicle Article [Re: ]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
It is what it is and it was what it was.

I would note that the "Though she has reluctantly agreed to a handful of interviews over recent years," Barton wrote, "she hasn't participated in the actual operation of the Church for a very long time," is Barton referring to Karla LaVey.

One thing I would say is that it all pretty much belies any belief that LaVey was getting rich off of the membership of The Church of Satan, but then, those of us who knew him in the 80's and indeed up until his death in 1997 could have told you that. I didn't need to see his bankbook to know it.

But the chaos that followed LaVey's separation from Diane and the turmoil that followed his death are nothing unique. More public and a tad more bizarre maybe, but hardly unique.

As for Barton coming up with a hand-written will, as Gomer Pyle used to say, "Surprise, surprise, surprise!" While I was long gone from the Administration when this all occurred, and out of the loop, it didn't surprise me. Much as I loved LaVey, he'd been thinking with his dick, and when he became trapped by illness and circumstance, his vulnerabilities became the fatal flaw.

There are things beyond this that I have heard rumors of, but being that I have no direct knowledge, I won't go into them, although knowing the players in the game, nothing they did would surprise me. Pretty much a cautionary tale all around.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#32741 - 12/10/09 12:49 AM ASLV Biography: "The Black Pope" [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
This is perhaps a good place to mention - not sure if I did previously - that Burton Wolfe recently finished an exhaustive update/revision of his Devil's Avenger biography of Anton LaVey - now retitled The Black Pope.

When I last corresponded with Burton, he hadn't found a print-publisher for it, but he does make it available in ebook format here.

As with its predecessor, it focuses more on Anton and the LaVey family, including offshoots, than the Church of Satan (except as a 6114 phenomenon). We don't see eye-to-eye on everything - he still thinks Anton porked MM - but Burton is honest about his own opinions and more careful about his facts than in the previous book. I think there are a lot of worse ways to spend $12.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#32743 - 12/10/09 01:22 AM Re: ASLV Biography: "The Black Pope" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Thanks very much gents.

Oh well we have the works of Dr. LaVey and they are valuable.

To the hierachy of the currect CoS if you are spying on the opposition here - explain yourself or kiss my ass!

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#32768 - 12/10/09 08:05 PM Re: ASLV Biography: "The Black Pope" [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



One of the problems is in the dynamics of the signifying activity in my view.

Words are culturally loaded, they are embedded in an historical framework, and when one uses them, they carry that history and culture with them and one has to deal with that baggage.

I just want to quickly compare two institutions by just examining the way they are named and what those words could mean.

The Church of Satan

This is a very powerful name for an organisation, with words which are a part of the cultural and historical framework of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

The Judeo-Christian tradition still appears to be the most dominant belief system in the West.

If one sets oneself up as ‘the opposition’ or as ‘believers or followers of the enemy,’ in the dominant tradition’s eyes, then this is going to create some problems and some issues.

The main problem seems to be that the CoS hierarchy, both past and present, are going to have to spend an enormous amount of time and effort just clarifying what is meant by Satan and what is meant by a Church of Satan and where the CoS stand in relation to the wider Judeo-Christian framework.

This seems to be critical because if this isn’t done then the framework and advocates of the Judeo-Christian system will define it for you.

You also have to defend yourself against the fundamentalists Christians; the media; state sanctioned or approved actions; nutcases and their possible criminal actions and just plain old general misunderstanding etc. etc.

The main advantage seems to be that you declare yourself openly and if people don’t like then they can stick it.

Man alive, how tough and gutsy was Dr. La Vey and his organisation!

It seems to me that as time wore on Dr. LaVey got sick and tired of having to answer yet more questions, and attend yet more interviews, and deal with yet more crap from the wider culture and he disappeared into the Den of Iniquity, to play the music he loved and in that environment just dealt with a small group of associates.

The problem seems to be that he cut himself off from too many people and paid the price because he didn’t seem to have that additional input and support of others.

Or else somebody or someone (no names mentioned) cut him off from the support and input of others? (Grrrrrr!)

He should have been taken better care of in his final days! (Sorry, I get a bit angry here.)

The Temple of Set

This is quite remarkable. Instead of having to exist within the Judeo-Christian framework you simply get rid of it altogether.

As a result it would seem that you can largely avoid unwanted media exposure and scrutiny, and the established Christian institutions won’t take as much notice of you, and maybe you can even rid yourself of some of the nutcases etc?

You may be able to fly under the radar and just work more within your organisation, without having to continually clarify it and defend it, or yourself, to the world outside.

The average guy on the street is just not going to know who or what Set is, in most cases, and would probably be confused by the word Temple, and may actually assume it is a cult of some sort.

The T.O.S seems, at least to me, to be a more studious, more controlled and cool institution. It would appear to be more philosophical and speculative, with more of an interest in the occult.

Dr.Aquino, I assume you are enjoying a rather leisurely retirement, whilst still pursuing your philosophical and occult interests when you wish, maybe with a glass of nice cold beer in hand?

You may have had dramas over the years (some more terrible than others) but you worked through them well I believe and there may have been less of them?

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#32774 - 12/10/09 10:12 PM Church of Satan/Temple of Set [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
... The main problem seems to be that the COS hierarchy, both past and present, are going to have to spend an enormous amount of time and effort just clarifying what is meant by Satan and what is meant by a Church of Satan and where the COS stand in relation to the wider Judeo-Christian framework.

During 1966-75 we did have to "clarify" in interviews, but it really wasn't all that hard, since the public profile of the C/S was pretty easy, and fun, to understand. And no other institution or interest group was seriously antagonistic; even Christian churches & clergy seemed more curious & amused by the C/S than anything else. We gave lectures, participated in panels at other churches & seminaries, colleges, high schools, etc.

 Quote:
It seems to me that as time wore on Dr. LaVey got sick and tired of having to answer yet more questions, and attend yet more interviews, and deal with yet more crap from the wider culture and he disappeared into the Den of Iniquity, to play the music he loved and in that environment just dealt with a small group of associates.

No, on the whole he enjoyed being in the public eye, and gave interviews & photo-shoots until he became terminally ill. The only time he had to "work" at explaining the C/S and himself was in the 1966-69 period. After that it & he were well-known enough so that he didn't have to "start from scratch" each interview, and instead could go off on favored personal tangents.

 Quote:
The problem seems to be that he cut himself off from too many people and paid the price because he didn’t seem to have that additional input and support of others.

During 66-75 he was very active within, and enjoyed the nationwide C/S: flying around to visit local Priests/Priestesses & Grottos, welcoming visiting Satanists at 6114 and so forth. Thereafter, as discussed elsewhere, the national structural Church & Priesthood vanished, but Anton had plenty of personal friends and admirers around.

 Quote:
He should have been taken better care of in his final days! (Sorry, I get a bit angry here.)

No disagreement there, but what went on behind the doors of 6114 in the Densley era, when I gather she and her relatives lived there, will probably remain a mystery, except as commented upon by Karla & Zeena.

 Quote:
The Temple of Set

This is quite remarkable. Instead of having to exist within the Judeo-Christian framework you simply get rid of it altogether.

As a result it would seem that you can largely avoid unwanted media exposure and scrutiny, and the established Christian institutions won’t take as much notice of you, and maybe you can even rid yourself of some of the nutcases etc?

You may be able to fly under the radar and just work more within your organisation, without having to continually clarify it and defend it, or yourself, to the world outside.

The average guy on the street is just not going to know who or what Set is, in most cases, and would probably be confused by the word Temple, and may actually assume it is a cult of some sort.

The T.O.S seems, at least to me, to be a more studious, more controlled and cool institution. It would appear to be more philosophical and speculative, with more of an interest in the occult.

"All of the above." \:\) Quite pleasantly so until the "Satanic Panic" of the 1980s, when Lilith & I were targeted in one of the scams, which dragged the Temple of Set into the public eye, which meant that I and other Setians had to spend an annoying amount of time on TV/radio interviews, panels, talks, blah blah. That BS didn't subside until the early 1990s, after which we've generally been able to get back to our initiatory interests.

 Quote:
Dr. Aquino, I assume you are enjoying a rather leisurely retirement, whilst still pursuing your philosophical and occult interests when you wish, maybe with a glass of nice cold beer in hand?

Where the Temple of Set is concerned, I retired from the High Priesthood of Set in 1996 and since then am just one more individual Setian. The TS continues to do fine, and I am working on my Temple of Set ebook memoir to complement my Church of Satan. TOS is much more difficult because the TS is much more complicated, with many smart people & groups doing lots of interesting stuff. Impossible to jam into just one book, so I'm still grappling with the project.

I don't drink alcohol & have zero tolerance for it. Anton didn't know this when ordaining me to the Priesthood at 6114 on 6/21/70, when he gave me the Chalice of Ecstasy to drink during the ceremony - filled with his favorite Wild Turkey. Talk about a religious experience.

 Quote:
You may have had dramas over the years (some more terrible than others) but you worked through them well I believe and there may have been less of them?

The extreme/dangerous BS of the late '80s is certainly over. Back to the normal amount of interview requests (all declined), polite questions (try to help), death threats, romantic overtures, occult-war challenges, attempted Christian conversions, requests to curse ex's - you know, the usual stuff. ;\)
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#32776 - 12/10/09 10:52 PM Re: Church of Satan/Temple of Set [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Well that's good, I'm glad that it was at least some fun for you and Dr. LaVey to explain the CoS and Satanism during those years.

Also good news that the Christian's were curious and amused as well.

I have to admit that in the ole days I liked a glass of Wild Turkey and Coke, but rarely drink Bourbon Whiskey nowadays. Very little tolerance for it either.

Was it just Wild Turkey in the Chalice? No Coke or water?
Hell! Dr. LaVey must have had a fairly strong constitution for alcohol! I couldn't have done it.

I am glad that he hadn't lost supporters and the friendship of other people even during those later years.

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#32878 - 12/13/09 08:30 PM Re: Fiddler's Green [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
FdB Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Las Vegas, NV / Dallas, TX / K...
Oh boy, I'm going to try and give this a try. Trying to explain what I believe often feels more difficult than I set it out to be. I am not the author Dr. Aquino is \:\)

* The views reflected in this posting are those of the author and may or may not reflect the views or opinions of Karla LaVey, the FSC or its members. *

Atheistic Satanist. Yes that is what I am because it is the easiest to explain. And while its true, its also false. The idea of taking the word "Satanist" away and the flash is gone is also true and also false. I still won't go away.

The problem is that people are still making comparisons based on Christianity. Comparing me to a christian, yes I am Atheist. Comparing me to an Atheist, I am not. It has nothing to do with the fact that I worship myself, its a much bigger picture.

When you compare me, you must select the appropriate group for comparison. If I compare a Buddhist to a christian, the Buddhist is now Atheist. If I compare a Buddhist to an Atheist he no longer is. If you compare a Buddhist to me you now have an interesting topic for comparison.

Buddha is not a god that is worshiped and isn't a deity to a Buddhist. The same way that Satan is not a god that is worshiped and isn't a deity to me. You can take away the name, the ritual and other factors etc, but its too late. I exist and am set in motion. I don't need the name but the name is my definition.

Buddhists follow the inspiration that is of his essence. I follow the inspiration that is of Satan. The rules apply. It doesn't matter that I have no affiliation with the religion that declares him evil.

Being a Buddhist and proclaiming it brings pride in that you are proclaiming what you stand for. It is the same when I declare myself Satanist. What other word should I use? Atheist sure doesn't cut it. Should I turn my back on the name for which my inspiration comes? I think not.

Buddhists are not atheists because of the belief of an external/internal omnipresent force in nature. I believe the same therefore not Atheist.

Buddhists want to ascend into the energy, and well um I want to own it. Buddhists believe all things are possible through your own mind, so do I. I could go on and on.

The basic fact is that I am always being compared as the opposite of christianity. I am in fact the opposite of Buddhism. If you keep comparing me in the incorrect manner of course it comes out that I am an Atheist.

I don't think it would be fair to compare a Settian without knowing what I should compare it to. Comparisons only work when you are comparing it to something relative.

I also think this is true for many Satanist. I think they have spent so much time being compared against Christianity, they have forgotten to compare themselves to the multitude of other religions not based on that religion. Its interesting to see the results when you do.






Edited by Fluffy D. Bunny (12/13/09 08:45 PM)
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#32889 - 12/14/09 12:35 AM Re: Fiddler's Green [Re: FdB]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Fluffy D. Bunny
Oh boy, I'm going to try and give this a try ...

Good try.

 Originally Posted By: Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. `They've a temper, some of them -- particularly verbs, they're the proudest -- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs -- however, I can manage the whole of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

`Would you tell me, please,' said Alice `what that means?`

`Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. `I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'

`That's a great deal to make one word mean,' Alice said in a thoughtful tone.

`When I make a word do a lot of work like that,' said Humpty Dumpty, `I always pay it extra.'

`Oh!' said Alice. She was too much puzzled to make any other remark.

"Satan"/"Satanism" is in much the same situation. You, or I, or anyone else can define it any number of ways. That's the easy part. The hard part is using it in dialogue with others such that there is a reasonable level of mutual understanding and agreement concerning its definition.

If you go back through Anton's, or my, or anyone else's writings, talks, or interviews throughout 1966-75, you'll see what an enormous amount of time was devoted to just explaining who/what Satan is, and how the application of Satanism is supposed to reflect, express, or otherwise impart Earthly relevance to this.

And when we were through, we would still find ourselves confronting the undying ogre of Generally Accepted Meaning. "Well, if that's what you believe," the ogre would say, "then you should use some other name, because everyone knows that Satan is the Bad Guy."

Back then we were out to redefine Satan as the Good Guy. We succeeded within the Church of Satan; we didn't get very far outside. [Well, there were only about 250 of us, and we only worked at it for 10 years.]

After 1975 the effort has been to redefine Satan as nothing: A Satanist is an Atheist. And the same ogre of GAM is still saying the same thing in response.

If you don't give a damn outside the 600 Club or the FCS, that's your option. But then understand that the ogre's always going to be lurking around. The only way to satisfy him is to use GAM yourself.

Incidentally this is hardly a problem limited to Satanism. People have been fighting, much longer and more furiously, about what "Christianity" means. Not to mention capitalism, communism, terrorism, patriotism, and all sorts of other -isms & -ologies. I spent much of my military career as a PSYOP officer trying to make some sense of this food fight, and control it.

In the final analysis, I think, we all come to the realization that the GAM ogre not only will never understand us; he won't even understand himself [or much care to]. That puts the ball back in our court: We have to explain ourselves at least to ourselves. In this case why Satan needs Atheism or Atheism needs Satan at all.

Most ardent atheists, for instance those in the FFRF, will maintain that Satan is just as insubstantial and unnecessary as God.

Most strict Satanists would probably dismiss Atheism as similarly wrong. Otherwise why invoke, evoke, swear to/by, or in any other way pretend the existence of someone who ain't there? This would just be, in the words of the Emperor Ming, "a sign of your weakness".

I titled my earlier post "Fiddlers' Green" as a gesture to the lack of resolution that I expect this question will always continue to have. In the U.S. Army Cavalry, in which I was originally commissioned in 1968, there was one blessing [or curse] that we alone enjoyed. We might be killed, but we would never completely die; instead we would go to Fiddlers' Green.

Perhaps that is the dark truth underlying the 600 Club.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#35022 - 02/02/10 02:39 PM Re: Fiddler's Green [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Sceevin Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 16
Loc: Washington
to add a small bit of clarification as to why i made the choice of the term atheistic Satanism, is because, although they are influenced by LaVey (at least it the past twenty or thirty years it appears they have come under some of his influence) they are not a 'LaVeyan' order. They do not practice the 'we are our own gods'. Hence, atheistic. Completely lacking any form of god.

just throwin that out there.

Though this topic has turned into a rather thorough exploration of the 'theistic' views of Satanism. And for that, i thank all of you.
_________________________
They will all burn in the fires of our black sun
"Engineer, Surgeon, Magician, I AM GOD!"-Rotwang

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#36734 - 03/19/10 12:00 AM Re: Theosophy? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
97and107 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 267
Loc: New Mexico
Atheistic Satanism is really the only kind of Satanism that has any kind of value. Satanist are free to do what they will...but it is a personal choice, not comprising Satanism itself. Isaac Newton and Thomas Jefferson were Satanists imo. They didn't give a fuck about what the church wanted them to believe or say, and the church couldn't do anything about it.

So sure...don your black cape and do whatever the fuck you want...that doesn't mean that religiosity means shit to beans in the grand scheme of things...Satanism is about genius

Magick and Occultism are sometimes allied with Satanism, but not always. I can't stand pseudoscience and mystical mumbo jumbo, something that draws the line between Pagans and Alchemists, the two primary bodies in the realm of Occult. Satanism seems to skirt the balance between the two, or else I'm not aware of other divisions.

Anyways its all worthless when you drag tacky circus shit into the fray. But can we throw good parties? Why not?

When the shit hits the fan, the messiahs of Satanism are and always will be Logos, Gnosis and Sophia...Satanism is Art and all the shock value that comes with it. It is not boogeymanism nor a fucking circus.


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#36755 - 03/19/10 10:18 AM Re: Theosophy? [Re: 97and107]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I agree completely. But, although I think Jefferson and Newton had a certain "Satanic spirit" to them like Blake and other thinkers did, I wouldn't call them outright Satanists considering they would have never called themselves such.

Granted, they are certainly better candidates for the title than the lot of posers who think Satanism means dressing up in black and being able to scare your parents.
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#36757 - 03/19/10 10:30 AM Re: Theosophy? [Re: 97and107]
SOLERIFT Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 31
Loc: Dallas, TX
 Originally Posted By: 97and107
Atheistic Satanism is really the only kind of Satanism that has any kind of value. Satanist are free to do what they will...but it is a personal choice, not comprising Satanism itself.


Depends on how you define Atheist. For some people - Atheism, for some, has become just as religious, as it became the pin that closed their eyes to any and all anomalous data - keeping them from discovering that there is more than meets the eye with the entire "god" delusion.

Many people have said to me that Atheism is "not believing in god" or the "supernatural" - and I would reply that this may be a narrow interpretation - idea of an ultimate arbiter of all universal destiny that judges, condemns, rewards, and punishes is absurd on many levels - but that does not exclude the existence of AWARENESS that exists at different levels. There is nothing supernatural, just "natural" that is not yet understood - the entire idea of "supernatural" is a contradiction in terms.

One crude example would be to say that we as humans, are basically "gods" to the animals, we have modified them, created new species, and they have little choice but to comply with our directives. We occupy the same space, but animals perceive it totally differently than humans because of their lack of mental abstraction and the ability to form concepts.

We have been able to grasp that we are floating on a rock in the middle of the dark seas of infinity - but dare I infer that animals, insects, etc... are not aware of this. An ant is not aware that the place where it gathers its food is actually your kitchen counter because it could have no concept of what a kitchen is. By that example, I could be somewhat humble and realize that that there could be other life more advanced than ours that we interact with all the time, but are not totally aware of it.

Realizing that there may be intelligences in this universe beyond my own comprehension and possibly existing in states of matter that could be said to be "less-than physical" does not make one a "believer" in literal "dieties" and all the psychological baggage that the word "deity" carries with it.

 Originally Posted By: 97and107
Magick and Occultism are sometimes allied with Satanism, but not always. I can't stand pseudoscience and mystical mumbo jumbo, something that draws the line between Pagans and Alchemists, the two primary bodies in the realm of Occult. Satanism seems to skirt the balance between the two, or else I'm not aware of other divisions.


I am interested in what you are saying here - Pagans and Alchemists - were you saying that the line that separates Alchemists from Pagans is that pagans are playing with "pseudoscience" and "mystical mumbo jumbo"?

If you ask me, the most worthwhile goal in the occult is Alchemy, and ignorance of that fact is what leads to quija board mystics, seance junkies and pop culture occultists..... ;\)

Alchemy, by varying degrees of practice, goes by many different names : I believe the Setians refer to it in their system as "Xeper and Remanifest", Laveyan Satanists refer to it and "self-transformative psychodrama", and the age old terms of "removing the sword from the stone" - the Authurian dramas, the raising of the beast, and the Great Red Dragon are all poetic symbolism to describe the goal of perfecting ones self - be it through martial arts, ritual psychodrama, metaphysical encounters, etc..... (please pardon my intrusion if I am "preaching to the choir")

 Quote:
When the shit hits the fan, the messiahs of Satanism are and always will be Logos, Gnosis and Sophia...Satanism is Art and all the shock value that comes with it. It is not boogeymanism nor a fucking circus.

I wish more would-be satanists climbing the theist ladder would see it that way. When I encounter someone who tells me they pray to satan and that he is their master and they serve him (which thankfully, is rare)- I want to kick them really hard in the teeth, just as much so as when I encounter the satanist that is such a rebel skeptic that everything they do not understand is labeled "stupid"

The main problem I have for a few (not all) of the "theistic" satanists I have encountered is this : What is the purpose for giving admiration and respect to the idea of the "adversary" and the "renegade", - the "dark master" archetype - if you do not actually attempt to model yourself accordingly?

It reminds me of christians who want to believe in christ, but have no intention on trying to live as they claim he did. Pointless. If they could accomplish that, they would have my respect more than my contempt, despite the glaring differences in our philosophies.

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#51966 - 03/31/11 10:37 AM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Sceevin]
Nikolai Rasputin Offline
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Registered: 03/18/11
Posts: 1
I have heard of them. Or at least what they seem to want people to hear about them. They claim to have started as religious organization that was started in Germany in the twenties or thirties that was a combination of Christianity and traditional Germanic paganism. And at some point after migrating to the U.S. they became a satanic cult. Kindof smells like that old stink of "We are old, we promise!"
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#57138 - 07/19/11 05:09 AM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Sceevin]
444ovthedirt Offline
banned
stranger


Registered: 07/18/11
Posts: 36
 Originally Posted By: Sceevin
HOBS, i have been a member of a local chapter for about three months. Before finding this group, the only time i had ever heard mention of it was as a possible connection to the NAZIs and through the Temple of Set. Going to their meetings(few and far between as they are) they do appear to have a lagit founding. But they have a policy of letting members be in contact only with those below them, and then those directly in grade above them.
As for their ritual use, they are more of a generic Atheistic left handed order then specificly belonging to one specific path.
I have been trying to figue out if they really are a real order. The only time i have seen the majority of the members in one place at one time was the last Walpurgisnacht. And all the members there wore black hooded robes with face masks.
The part that struck me as odd, was the fact that they have no plicy against speaking to non members about being a member. Its like they want attention. They just told me not to share the inner rituals.
Does any one know anything about this order?


On a hunch just today I went searching out information on the black sun archetype.

I found these:

Asatru

http://www.asatru.org/aboutasatru.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Neopaganism

Just because some Nazi's identify with it does not mean they get to claim it as their own.

To me it looks like an old archetype being revived taking on newer interpretations . I am finding it quite fascinating so far.
I do believe I will be looking much further into it in the coming days.

I have always loved the Idea of a black sun and the solar eclipse is a common archetype in my dreams and visions.

This Astaru paradigm tickles my Welsh and Swedish genetic fancy. Though I do not identify myself in any way with Nazi's. I believe there should definatly be an effort to make and keep people aware that there are differences between neo-nazis and the reclamation and revival of old northern traditions (Astaru).

Fascinating stuff.



Edited by 444ovthedirt (07/19/11 05:11 AM)
_________________________
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#57147 - 07/19/11 11:35 AM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: 444ovthedirt]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
This I can appreciate. . I'll take what resonates with me with Asatru. I'll be inverting it of course, to my preference of the Thurses.

I've not read outside the Edda's except for the work of a particular author, and whenever I mention Vexior218's work, I get criminalised on this forum. I work with the Thurses, the primal, uncontrolled forces of Nature.

That Judeo-Christianity hasn't molested the Old Norse lores is more than a little suspect, after all, they destroyed everything else. But, there's no warping or twisting the Old Norse warrior ethos.
_________________________


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#57157 - 07/19/11 02:41 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Nikolai Rasputin]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Nikolai Rasputin
I have heard of them. Or at least what they seem to want people to hear about them. They claim to have started as religious organization that was started in Germany in the twenties or thirties that was a combination of Christianity and traditional Germanic paganism. And at some point after migrating to the U.S. they became a satanic cult. Kindof smells like that old stink of "We are old, we promise!"

If you want to get a serious grip on German occultism during the Weimar period, I'd recommend this.

The Satanic Rituals notwithstanding, there was no "Black Order" in Nazi Germany [other than, of course, the SS]. And essentially the Nazis shut down all "occult" societies; they wanted to be the only game in town.

Today's "Black Sun" stuff started from a misinterpretation of the Westphalian Vehmic emblem on the floor of the Grail Room (also mistakenly called the "SS Generals Hall", but actually inspired by Wagner's Parsifal set) in the Wewelsburg. Lots of people have had lots of fun with it since then, and I think my two favorite Internet sites for "Black Sun" gonzo are this and this.

Today's "Black Sun Orders" don't have any Temple of Set connection. Our Order that has North European/Germanic occultism as one of its interests is the Order of the Trapezoid.

If you want to get into NE/G occultism in a serious way, I recommend Category #24 in the Temple of Set Reading List (included with Black Magic on my webpage.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#57158 - 07/19/11 04:37 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
For the past year I've been devouring every last bit of the "Fraternitas Saturni" that I could get my hands on. I find them particularly fascinating because they are a LHP-oriented order that predates the majority of present groups, and still appear to have a level of secrecy about them.

"Fire and Ice" is an excellent book, and those interested in further reading (and can wade through German well enough) should definitely look at Gregor A Gregorius's "Magic Letters" to get a more technical view of the Brotherhood.

http://english.grimoar.cz/?Loc=book&Lng=2&Back=key&UID=379

Of particular notice is the tract "Satanistiche Magie" (Satanist Magic), which presents Satanism as an initiatory perspective in relation to Gnosticism and the "Saturnian Way". This stands in stark contrast to most other portrayals of Satanism at the time that were tainted by the disclaimers and self-righteous denunciations of "White-Lighters". It is all the more interesting to consider that this was written in 1926.
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#62476 - 12/10/11 02:26 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Sceevin]
kvac Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/29/11
Posts: 20
Loc: raleigh NC
Actually it is in close to the Vril Society. Most of the ones Im familiar with are well off and connected with another order as well.
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#62729 - 12/18/11 03:19 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: kvac]
Sorcerer Offline
Banned
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Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 23
If I may be permitted, I would like to mention my new site, orderoftheblacksun.com, and announce that we, the Black Sun Obscurati, have targeted December 21, 2012 as the date of the onset of the Black Sun Aeon. Our sorcerers are working feverishly to devise a Black Sun Working which will usher in the new dark age, but we need your help. Our style, goals and methods are those of a Cthulhu Cult, the Ahnenerbe and the Sith; our philosophy is cosmicist-Satanic-nihilist; our methods equal parts science, art, magic and madness; our goal the overthrow of the religions of the Light and the foundation of the Black Sun Empire.

OBS is currently seeking exceptional individuals to fill executive-level positions within our Ministries -- everything from Psycho-Sorcerer Supreme to Esotericist-In-Chief to Master of Assassins. I therefore invite the fine people of The 600 Club to visit orderoftheblacksun.com and become part of the New Order. The hour is late, apocalypse approaches, and there is much work yet to be done…

Sean the Sorcerer,

Doctor of Doom, Emperor of Dreams, Sorcerer Supreme
Grand Master of the Obscurati, Black Pope of the Magisterium Malum

Orderoftheblacksun.com

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#62731 - 12/18/11 04:00 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Sorcerer]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
our goal the overthrow of the religions of the Light and the foundation of the Black Sun Empire.


Another aeon? First we have the Aeon of Saturn, then the Aeon of the Mother, and Aeon of Horus, Aeon of Satan, Aeon of Set, Aeon of Fire, Aeon of Chaos, Aeon of Cthulhu, Aeon of Lucifer, Aeon of I-don't-give-a-fuck anymore. This once-profound term has been so overused and watered-down that nobody even thinks twice before declaring themselves a Magus and pulling some arbitrary "Word" out of their ass like it's some sort of a goddamn prerequisite for being an occultist.

The next wannabe-Crowley who announces his own personal aeon is going to get a steel-capped jackboot lodged knee-deep into his colon.

 Quote:
our goal the overthrow of the religions of the Light and the foundation of the Black Sun Empire.


You and your three active forum members? I know humility isn't at the top of the list of Satanic virtues, but you should give it a try sometime.


Edited by The Zebu (12/18/11 04:04 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#62732 - 12/18/11 04:40 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: The Zebu]
Sorcerer Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 23
Thank you for your criticisms. "Aeon" may be overused, but that's probably because it is a useful word which expresses an idea better than anything else available. Do you have another suggestion? For the record, I know little about Crowley and don't aspire to imitate him, but what exactly is objectionable about a million Crowley-wannabes running around declaring themselves emperors of their own personal Aeons? I say let a million cults bloom!

You are correct that the Black Sun Empire doesn't currently have a large following and is still largely theoretical. However, if you had met Genghis Khan when he was an outcast youth subsisting on carcasses in the Mongolian wilderness or Adolph Hitler as a disheveled young artist in the flophouses of Vienna, would you have taken them seriously either if they had described to you their dreams of future empires? Such is the eternal fate of those who walk alone under the Shadow of the Black Sun...



Edited by Sorcerer (12/18/11 04:46 PM)

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#62748 - 12/19/11 04:52 AM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Sorcerer]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
Damn I was interested until I noticed the position of hugely superior bullshitter extraordinaire was already filled.

Funny you compare yourself with a young AH or a young GK but your profile says you are 45? Hitler was chancellor of Germany by age 44 and Genghis Khan from a bit of research seems had amassed a small army by age 20.

I think you suffer from disillusions of grandeur oh mighty ruler of a website.

Derrick is that you?

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#62751 - 12/19/11 05:57 AM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: ta2zz]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
It's December 18th and I just pipped Sorceror to the post by ushering in my own Aeon of Hotei. That's the manifestation of Buddha in his Howling With Laughter At Bullshit form.

Sorry, Zebu. You can have a special title if you'd like? \:\)
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#62753 - 12/19/11 10:27 AM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: felixgarnet]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
My crystal ball reveals me there will be an Aeon of the Asylum following all those others.

It's quite a career he is making: Sean the Mystic, Sean the Sorcerer. I'll wait until "Sean who Wears his Sleeves on his Back" until I consider participating.

But that photo on his website, that was great. It looked really real and such.

D.

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#63409 - 01/06/12 08:47 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: The Zebu]
Merkwürdigliebe5 Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 60
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
For the past year I've been devouring every last bit of the "Fraternitas Saturni" that I could get my hands on. I find them particularly fascinating because they are a LHP-oriented order that predates the majority of present groups, and still appear to have a level of secrecy about them.

"Fire and Ice" is an excellent book, and those interested in further reading (and can wade through German well enough) should definitely look at Gregor A Gregorius's "Magic Letters" to get a more technical view of the Brotherhood.

http://english.grimoar.cz/?Loc=book&Lng=2&Back=key&UID=379

Of particular notice is the tract "Satanistiche Magie" (Satanist Magic), which presents Satanism as an initiatory perspective in relation to Gnosticism and the "Saturnian Way". This stands in stark contrast to most other portrayals of Satanism at the time that were tainted by the disclaimers and self-righteous denunciations of "White-Lighters". It is all the more interesting to consider that this was written in 1926.


As I believe Dr. Flowers acknowledges in the forward to Fire and Ice the information he used to compile that book was supplied to him by Frater U.D., and was representative of the magical curriculum under Gregorius' headmastership of the lodge.

Currently, there are two main branches of the Saturnian tradition still in existence, the Fraternitas Saturni and the Ordo Saturni.


Edited by Merkwürdigliebe5 (01/06/12 08:48 PM)
_________________________
"To a new world of gods and monsters!"

-Dr. Septimus Pretorius

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#63411 - 01/06/12 08:56 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Merkwürdigliebe5]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Frater U.D. is a interesting writer.
I really liked his book "Secrets of Western Sex Magic".
His other book that I have is "High Magic" it's kinda dry, but I am working my way through it. So I am kinda reserving judgement till its done.

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#63412 - 01/06/12 09:05 PM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Morgan]
Merkwürdigliebe5 Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 60
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Frater U.D. is a interesting writer.
I really liked his book "Secrets of Western Sex Magic".
His other book that I have is "High Magic" it's kinda dry, but I am working my way through it. So I am kinda reserving judgement till its done.

M


From what was told to me, relations between Frater U.D. and the OS are not the best.

I do know that the current headmaster of the OS is working on a book of his own detailing the Lodge's history and current curriculum.
_________________________
"To a new world of gods and monsters!"

-Dr. Septimus Pretorius

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#63415 - 01/06/12 09:16 PM Re: Theosophy? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
seekswisdom Offline
member


Registered: 01/04/12
Posts: 104
Loc: California,U.S.
Well said Dr Aquino,
If a house divides against it self it can not stand.Satan is the foundation of the 600 club,the life and the force behind it. Instead of fighting eachother over who's not a Satanist because he's a Atheist bullshit. Learn to work together for the cause of living above good and evil.It's about finding you own way and that for that purpose is why we need to stand together in harmony.

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#63416 - 01/06/12 09:46 PM Re: Theosophy? [Re: seekswisdom]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"why we need to stand together in harmony."

Ughh, really, really??
Pukes a little....

I think you need to reread the Satanic Bible, as well as read some more posts on this board.

You might be in the wrong place.....

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#63421 - 01/07/12 03:04 AM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: Merkwürdigliebe5]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
From what was told to me, relations between Frater U.D. and the OS are not the best.


I'm pretty sure that the Ordo Saturni and the current Fraternitas Saturni are the result of a schism. I really don't know the background of it, though, but the OS seems to be the more outspoken of the two, at least on the internet.

 Quote:

I do know that the current headmaster of the OS is working on a book of his own detailing the Lodge's history and current curriculum.


Sounds interesting. This is definitely going on my radar.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#63428 - 01/07/12 10:54 AM Re: Hermetic Order of the Black Sun [Re: The Zebu]
Merkwürdigliebe5 Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 60
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I'm pretty sure that the Ordo Saturni and the current Fraternitas Saturni are the result of a schism. I really don't know the background of it, though, but the OS seems to be the more outspoken of the two, at least on the internet.


You are correct, the OS established itself as a separate lodge in order to preserve the correct teachings of Gregor A. Gregorius. The neo-FS of today is no longer working in Gregorius' tradition.

Due to the political climate in Germany now, the OS prefers not conduct itself online.

Of course repression of the Saturnian tradition is not new in Germany. The original FS lodge was forced closed by order of Himmler in 1937 and could not openly practice again until 1950.
_________________________
"To a new world of gods and monsters!"

-Dr. Septimus Pretorius

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