#31866 - 11/17/09 10:24 PM
What makes something natural or unnatural?
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CJB
member
Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
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Continuing a discussion from another thread (Vegetarian something something stuff) that was rather off-topic...and I have to admit might be a bit of arguing on semantics, in which case just blast me down or ignore me...
Unnatural means NOT OCCURRING IN NATURE. Not a terribly difficult concept to grasp...at least that is what one would think.
Cool. So nature would be...? As I had said before, is this referring to mother nature? If that's so, then are we not part of mother nature? Is it the laws of how the living things on Earth interact, or the interactions themselves?
If I read you right, everything that happens to us or that we do that occurs elsewhere in nature is natural, but anything we do that doesn't happen elsewhere in nature is unnatural? Eating, breathing, shitting, fucking, shooting out babies would be natural things, but anything outside of that, from making fire, houses, cars, plastic, clothing, etc., are unnatural? (And even though fire occurs without human intervention, rubbing two sticks together to make fire requires human intervention...so would that particular fire be unnatural?). Humans are the only animals (as far as I know) that cook food, so is cooking food unnatural? If cooked food (a human creation) is not unnatural, but a car (a human creation) is unnatural, what is the difference between the two?
Right, but I never said "their creation runs contrary to the laws of how the universe works". Yet the fact still remains that they have to be created. They are made from natural ingredients but you will never find a Boca patty growing on a soybean plant. Unless scientists come up with a way to alter soy bean plants. Even then it would still be unnatural because it took human intervention to create.
Again, so it is only unnatural if it takes human intervention to create? Is the definition of unnatural then the same thing as artificial? Artificial basically differentiates objects between those created by nature (natural) and those created by humans (artificial. I guess "humanural" just didn't sound right). Unnatural differentiates between things that happen in nature and things that do not. Unnatural would be a male becoming pregnant, water catching on fire at 0 degrees Celsius, or other such things.
No, that is not what I am implying at all. I don't even see how you could make such an irrational leap in conclusion. I think I know what you are getting her so let me clear it up for you. Yes, humans give birth to other humans; essentially humans make other humans. Here is the catch though: child birth occurs in nature.
Right: child birth occurs in nature, and so do animals changing their environment to better suit them. (by the way, that wasn't what I was getting at) That's what every artificial thing created is: something a specific animal (a human) has made something in its environment to better help the human. It's natural for a human to want to make stuff to make his life easier and/or more enjoyable...why then are the things he makes unnatural?
This thread is off track though so if you would like to continue you can make a new thread. If you do please just try to avoid the slippery slopes. 
Done and...maybe done, though probably not. I happen to like slippery slopes...they're fun!
_________________________
~~CJ
"To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.'"
-Ayn Rand
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#31867 - 11/17/09 10:33 PM
Re: What makes something natural or unnatural?
[Re: CJB]
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GillesdeRais
member
Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
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Yes, humans give birth to other humans; essentially humans make other humans
Shouldn't such bold and presumptive statements be limited to a new thread that only concerns gynecology?
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
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#31870 - 11/17/09 11:56 PM
Re: What makes something natural or unnatural?
[Re: CJB]
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ballbreaker
member
Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
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Enlighten me...why is it significant to try distinguishing between natural and unnatural?
I'm not being facetious...
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#31873 - 11/18/09 01:29 AM
Re: What makes something natural or unnatural?
[Re: TheInsane]
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GillesdeRais
member
Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
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They, or MIchael Aquino I guess, actually hold the LHP religions as psyche worshipping religions and the psyche is seen as of unnatural origin. While they also tend to call religions such as Christianity a nature worshipping religion
I have never been associated with the ToS in any way (other than ripping off some of their copyrighted material from the net), but I think you're proceeding from false assumptions about that organization, bubba...
Psyche worshipping? Maybe enlightened individuality, but I don't think Set-O-Philes (Setians) sit around much thinking about anything besides their own 'becoming', and I DEFINITELY don't think they see Christians as being 'Nature Worshippers'.
For your own amusement, check out their reading list...I know it's probably outdated but I'm sure that there probably hasn't been many changes made to the core rankings.
In particular, maybe the 'Gift of Set' category of the list would be of interest to you in understanding initiatory LHP doo-hickeys, and such.
Now I have to get back to reading my pirated copy of 'The Sapphire Tablet of Set', I left off at: "To date, however, I have not discussed the essential characteristics of the IV° -- the criteria according to which I considered and then recognized you."
Fun!!!
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
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#31874 - 11/18/09 01:59 AM
Re: What makes something natural or unnatural?
[Re: GillesdeRais]
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6Satan6Archist6
senior member
Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2233
Loc: Oregon
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Yes, humans give birth to other humans; essentially humans make other humans Shouldn't such bold and presumptive statements be limited to a new thread that only concerns gynecology?
Speaking of gynecology; how did you survive the coat-hanger?
Edit: RE:TheInsane - I never said there was anything bad, wrong, immoral etc. with unnatural things. Only that they are what they are, in the sense that I was speaking of them.
Edited by 6Satan6Archist6 (11/18/09 02:26 AM)
_________________________
Ultimate Satanic Bad Ass of Ultimate Satanic Bad Assery PhD Esq. LLC Inc.^∞ DCLXVI°
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#31879 - 11/18/09 06:17 AM
Re: What makes something natural or unnatural?
[Re: coelentrate]
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CJB
member
Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
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After reading this post and better understanding your logic it seems that we are hung up on semantics. That being said; I will concede to your points of contention.
OK, about a quarter of the way through making that post, that's what I was thinking.
Shouldn't such bold and presumptive statements be limited to a new thread that only concerns gynecology?
And fucking. And gynecologists fucking. Which actually sounds like a setup for a bad porn.
Re: TheInsane's post
(...sorry, got tired of copy and pasting)
That's what made me start thinking about it in the first place: the different way I view the world now. Whenever I first started formulating thoughts on how the world worked, there was a god involved, and certain things that I take for granted because of that occasionally pop up and make me wonder about it, like at present.
I had always before thought of a bunch of stuff humans do were unnatural, due to believing before that the human soul/psyche/consciousness/what-have-you was something unnatural (even supernatural!), and when I started thinking about it...how humans are just animals like anything else in nature, how we are part of nature, etc., it seems to me that nothing we do could really be labelled "unnatural".
At the same time, there are the other definitions of nature...but the more I think about it, since part of human nature is free will, how would anything a human does go against his nature?
As for Setians (at least the priests and higher) believing the psyche is unnatural, that's pretty much how I understood their thinking to be, as well, but I could be mistaken (I'm still having problems getting past the Platonic forms, myself). In this case, the "unnatural psyche" would mean something more of a supernatural variety.
_________________________
~~CJ
"To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.'"
-Ayn Rand
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#31901 - 11/18/09 04:04 PM
Re: What makes something natural or unnatural?
[Re: GillesdeRais]
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TheInsane
member
Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
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I have never been associated with the ToS in any way (other than ripping off some of their copyrighted material from the net), but I think you're proceeding from false assumptions about that organization, bubba... Psyche worshipping? Maybe enlightened individuality, but I don't think Set-O-Philes (Setians) sit around much thinking about anything besides their own 'becoming', and I DEFINITELY don't think they see Christians as being 'Nature Worshippers'. For your own amusement, check out their reading list...I know it's probably outdated but I'm sure that there probably hasn't been many changes made to the core rankings.
I have read most of the following documents by the ToS:
* Everything on the webpage
* All books bar one by Don Webb
* Stephen Flowers "lords of the left hand path"
* The crystal tablet of set
* the ruby tablets of set
* the scroll of set (membership magazine, my version apparently has every # from 1975 to 1999 bar one year - I believe 1988).
I also have the saphire tablet and the onyx tablet. Oh and I have studied and just completed a 60-70 page essay on the ToS's relation to ancient Egyptian mythology on university level. Basically I know what Im talking about. The most easy way for you is to read their "General Information and Admissions Policies" http://xeper.org/pub/gil/xp_TOC_gil_English.htm
The psyche-worshipping religions were more intellectually demanding than their nature-worshipping counterparts, since it is more difficult to reason a path through one’s span of conscious existence than it is to be swept along by a current of semi-rational stimulus and response.
I recomend that you read Dr. Aqinos essay "black magic". Parts of it reads:
The key which we apply to this problem is what Eric Hoffer refers to as “the
unnaturalness of human nature”. (#17D) The soul or self does not behave as though it
were merely a “sum total” of the brain’s sensory and manipulative capacities, combining
and recombining inputted information as though it were an “organic” electronic
computer. It has a sense of identity, a sense of uniqueness, a sense of distance and
differentiation from everything else that exists.
Thats just one part of it. The "unnaturalness of the human psyche" (as a ToS member would say, not my words) is indeed essential to their philosophy. Anyone who has really read things on the ToS should know this. Its everywhere in their writings. Set is seen as the unnatural god, the god that opposes the ordered universe and nature is seen as ordered to which the setian can have a relation, be seperate and therefore grow his/her individual existence.
This was always what I considered the main fault of the ToS. To me the notion of the soul as separate, not only from the body but also from nature and the objective universe itself, seems really out there and does not fit my own perception of reality at all.
Edit: I cant find the document that speaks of Christianity as "nature-worshipping" and Satanism or Setianism (cant remember which one or both) as psyche-worshipping. I will keep looking, I know its out there.
Edited by TheInsane (11/18/09 04:10 PM)
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#31903 - 11/18/09 04:17 PM
Re: What makes something natural or unnatural?
[Re: TheInsane]
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TheInsane
member
Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
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Ok it was right under my nose the whole time. Go to read Aquinos Black Magic and jump to the chapters called "the black magic theory on the universe". This includes the parts "The Non-Natural Approach to the Objective Universe" and "The Non-Natural Approach to the Subjective Universe".
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#31959 - 11/19/09 10:38 AM
Re: What makes something natural or unnatural?
[Re: coelentrate]
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TheInsane
member
Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
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Oh and I have studied and just completed a 60-70 page essay on the ToS's relation to ancient Egyptian mythology on university level. Basically I know what Im talking about. I've heard of the university level. That means you were 19, and you wrote it drunk the night before it was due, trying to tune out the commotion of the frat party across the street. Right? "I like the Temple of Set. The Temple of Set likes Egypt. They think it is neat..."
Its good to see the class clown making an appearance!
:P
Edited by Nemesis (11/19/09 11:35 AM)
Edit Reason: Is that the best rejoinder you could come up with? How sad. I highly suggest you don't do it again.
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#31970 - 11/19/09 04:22 PM
Re: What makes something natural or unnatural?
[Re: TheInsane]
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GillesdeRais
member
Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
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Basically I know what Im talking about
Really? In that case you must have access to the super-secret document purportedly authored by Set itself entitled: "What I Did On My Summer Vacation"! I myself have only heard insane diatribes/gibberings concerning the validity of it's very existence, and how it drives even some sixth-degree Set-O-Philes utterly mad upon exposure to it's sinister premises...
Actually, in my response to your post I was pretty clear about what I thought were the glaring misinterpretations of that (Setian) philosophy that you offered. You then responded by pointing out the extensive amount of information that you have at your disposal concerning your viewpoint, but you really didn't attempt to elaborate on why you thought Setians were "Psyche Worshippers" and that they (Setians) see X-tians as being "Nature Worshippers".
If you have problems with the way I critiqued your views, extrapolate on your own by PERTINENT citation, not by simply pointing me in what you consider as being the right direction...In this case Doc Aquino's first essay in the CToS, which I still don't see as reinforcing your argument, at all. BTW - I'm interested in reading your 60-70 page essay that you wrote about the ToS on the university level!!! Convert it to a pdf and PM me a way to get it.
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
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