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#32034 - 11/21/09 07:47 AM I am a born again , evangelical Christian
Eljon
Unregistered



hi all

my name is Angelo. I am a born again, evangelical Christian. English is not my native language, so sorry, if i write some things wrong, or am not able to express myself well. You might think right away, i am invading your space here. First of all, i want to make clear, that i am not here to try to convert anyone. I think however, there exist many conceptions about Christianity amongst Satanists, and people in general which do oppose the Christian faith, which are simply false, or not true. I might be able to clarify some questions. Not all, since there exist many questions, which are not answered through the bible. But many people have heard some things here, some there, without knowing in-depth, and forming opinions which are simply false.
There is not consensus amongst satanists, some believe, Satan exists, and worship him , and the most part do not believe in a personal, real entity called Lucifer, but believe only in their SELF. These do also not believe in the existence of God, Jahwe.
I would like to start this thread with the following question :

what evidence do you have, that made you come to the belief and conclusion, no powerful, all-knowing, eternal God, creator of the heavens, and the earth, exists ?

I belief, without taking any religious book into consideration, only by observing the creation, we can come to a pretty strong conviction, God must exist. Why do you think differently ?

Angelo

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#32035 - 11/21/09 08:40 AM Re: I am a born again , evangelical Christian [Re: ]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
 Quote:
what evidence do you have, that made you come to the belief and conclusion, no powerful, all-knowing, eternal God, creator of the heavens, and the earth, exists ?


What evidence do you have that god does exist? Merely by examining what you see or learn about has convinced you that the judeo-christian god must be real? I'm not a satanist, just a parlor-variety occultist, but I have to say the jury is pretty much still out on a monotheistic god's defacto existence. That's why you have to call it "blind faith". Blind as in you can see no real evidence, faith as in a belief that has no proof...Kind of a double-negative there.
As I said, I'm no satanist, but there are satanists-o-plenty here...I personally don't care if you post, but I'd advise against proselytizing, the mods/admin will be on you like a duck on a june-bug. They are ill-tempered and are always on the look out for fresh meat. Belial only knows they've nibbled on me a few times. Hail Mithra!
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#32037 - 11/21/09 09:10 AM Re: I am a born again , evangelical Christian [Re: ]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Angelo--

You are not the first Christian to come here attempting to either "understand" us, or try to answer our "questions" about your faith.

The fact is, your kind will never understand our kind.

We have no questions for you, nor do we care to argue creationism and specific points in the Bible. The simple fact is, you believe in fairy tales and we do not.

Capeche?

Now be a good little martyr and piss off.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#32038 - 11/21/09 09:13 AM Re: I am a born again , evangelical Christian [Re: GillesdeRais]
Eljon
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: GillesdeRais
 Quote:
what evidence do you have, that made you come to the belief and conclusion, no powerful, all-knowing, eternal God, creator of the heavens, and the earth, exists ?


What evidence do you have that god does exist? Merely by examining what you see or learn about has convinced you that the judeo-christian god must be real? I'm not a satanist, just a parlor-variety occultist, but I have to say the jury is pretty much still out on a monotheistic god's defacto existence. That's why you have to call it "blind faith". Blind as in you can see no real evidence, faith as in a belief that has no proof...Kind of a double-negative there.
As I said, I'm no satanist, but there are satanists-o-plenty here...I personally don't care if you post, but I'd advise against proselytizing, the mods/admin will be on you like a duck on a june-bug. They are ill-tempered and are always on the look out for fresh meat. Belial only knows they've nibbled on me a few times. Hail Mithra!


as said, i do not need to take the bible on hands, to make my point. Your answer is de facto a no answer, since you answered with a counter answer.

Blind as in you can see no real evidence, faith as in a belief that has no proof

there are no proofs, whether God exists, or not. But there is plenty of evidence that he exists.

one evidence :

3) Teleological (Design) -

P1. X is too complex, orderly, adaptive, apparently purposeful or beautiful to have occurred randomly or accidentally.
C1: Therefor, X must have been created by a sentient, intelligent, wise, or purposeful being.
P2. God is a sentient, intelligent, wise, or purposeful being.
C2: Therefor, God exists.

there are plenty of examples, that can be picked out, for example the extremely fine tuning of the universe to life. This is a hard, deductive argument for the existence of God.


Edited by Eljon (11/21/09 09:15 AM)

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#32040 - 11/21/09 09:43 AM Re: I am a born again , evangelical Christian [Re: ]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
 Quote:
there are plenty of examples, that can picked out, for example the extremely fine tuning of the universe to life. This is a hard, deductive argument for the existence of God.


Stephen Hawking once said (or typed): "Cthulhu probably exists inside a singularity"...So the most brilliant theoretical physicist we currently share the planet with believes (mathematically) that there are probably an infinity of universes/possible dimensions, where anything can, and does occur. Just because our little flat observable universe is nice, and pretty, and tuned, doesn't necessarily preclude the existence of places that aren't so finely tuned, or brightly lit, or anything else for that matter. So I call bullshit on the argument that because everything is perfect and humanity exists on a "Goldilocks" planet (not too hot, not too cold, but just right), that there has to be an 'over-god', a 'first-cause', or any other theological claptrap that the 'intelligent design' people like to beat other folks over the head with.


Edited by GillesdeRais (11/21/09 09:45 AM)
Edit Reason: grammar
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#32041 - 11/21/09 10:19 AM Re: I am a born again , evangelical Christian [Re: GillesdeRais]
Room 101 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Scotland
“God must exist.” Why? Are you serious? As far as the pseudo logical drivel that you have spewed so for goes, I don’t see any reason why I should consider you mentally well, let alone having a valid point.

Your augments are flawed. I see no evidence of a higher being at work, only your desperate attempt find a basis in reality that suits your fucking fairy tales.

You attempt to use the “creator” augment (something as pretty as a flower couldn’t just “happen”) to validate your own archaic belief systems. Heard of evolution? It’s a concept we in the 20th century have been toying with for some time now. You might wish to look into it. While this is a theory, it still holds more water factually than concept of a bearded being of omnipotence that small minded fools; such as yourself, cling to so that death hold's less fear.

Just because you can’t see over the end of your own pew doesn’t mean that the rest of us must suffer your dated, irrational and frankly ridiculous “Faith”.


Edited by Room 101 (11/21/09 10:26 AM)
_________________________
"Nothing is your own except the few cubic centimeters inside your skull." - George Orwell (1984)

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#32043 - 11/21/09 10:32 AM Re: I am a born again , evangelical Christian [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Eljon
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
Listen, there is no causal link between your P's and C's. They simply don't follow.


why do you think they do not follow ?

 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel

You *cannot* prove your god.


i have said right in the first post not to ask for proofs. There aren't any, whether God exists, or not.

 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel

Your arguments aren't worth shit, because they are not based in *any* fact.


The Universe is tuned to life. This is a scientific, undisputed fact, whether you want and accept it, or not. Therefor it must have a tuner. That is a logical deduction.

 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel

Saying existence is so complex it must have been created indicates you are ignorant of the theory of evolution, which has a *lot* more evidence going for it.

Grow the fuck up.


The theory of evolution does not answer much,and what it answers, it answers badly. Grow and use a educated language. fuck etc. is something used by teenagers on the schoolyard.

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#32044 - 11/21/09 10:36 AM Re: I am a born again , evangelical Christian [Re: GillesdeRais]
Eljon
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: GillesdeRais
So the most brilliant theoretical physicist we currently share the planet with believes (mathematically) that there are probably an infinity of universes/possible dimensions, where anything can, and does occur.


there is no evidence for that assertion. And Multi-verses do not exclude the necessity for a first cause.

Alexander Vilenkin is Professor of Physics and Director of the Institute of Cosmology at Tufts University. He wrote :

It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning (Many Worlds in One [New York: Hill and Wang, 2006], p.176).

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its
existence.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its
existence. that cause was God.

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#32045 - 11/21/09 10:40 AM Re: I am a born again , evangelical Christian [Re: Room 101]
Eljon
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: Room 101
Heard of evolution? It’s a concept we in the 20th century have been toying with for some time now. You might wish to look into it.


O sure. The ET does not explain how first live came to be. How the solar system got tuned to life.
How the Universe got tuned to exist, actually.
How the universe came to be. Since it had a beginning, it must have a cause.
BTW. Macro-evolution is very unlikely to be true. Nobody brought hard evidence to sustain that theory. Its far to be a fact, as many times asserted.

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#32048 - 11/21/09 10:58 AM Re: I am a born again , evangelical Christian [Re: ]
Room 101 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Scotland
Ehem, “Fuck you”. Educated enough?

“The Universe is tuned to life. This is a scientific, undisputed fact, whether you want and accept it, or not. Therefore it must have a tuner. That is a logical deduction.”

The universe is not tuned to life. “Life” is simply a buy product of the universes existence. It is not a scientific fact that the universe is tuned to life, it is a “fact” that life exists, that is all.

As for your argument regarding evolution, what is it that you fail to grasp? Have you read The Origin of the species? Are you aware that thanks to genetic research we can actually trace the lineage of a creature, as in, we can see which animals stemmed from the same original species?

“Macro-evolution is very unlikely to be true. Nobody brought hard evidence to sustain that theory.”
Macro evolution is a small part of a bigger process...grow a mind. Even the worst scientific theory, on its worst day, will still hold more “fact” than your faith nonsense.

As For the creation of the universe, this might be a good time for you to read some books on the subject. I recommend “The Universe in a nutshell” by Hawking.

“Cosmic beginning” may well be a question that will forever evade an answer, but this does not mean that we should, in the mean time, attribute its “beginning” to higher being. The Tuff’s professor’s comment does nothing but raise the same question, using it as evidence to support your stupid concepts really isn’t very bright.

For the love of YOUR god, bring something to the table, other than your idiocy.


Edited by Room 101 (11/21/09 11:05 AM)
_________________________
"Nothing is your own except the few cubic centimeters inside your skull." - George Orwell (1984)

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#32050 - 11/21/09 11:21 AM Re: I am a born again , evangelical Christian [Re: ]
ballbreaker Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Well I think the question of 'life' etc. can be pretty easily solved.

I can see where you're coming from...and let's imagine, for the sake of argument, that natural scientists couldn't provide an explanation for how the first living being developed, what caused the creation of earth, or even why exactly apples tend to fall down from their trees and not up into the clouds.

None of these 'failures' makes your point, i.e. that God fills in the gaps of science/makes everything possible/etc. The lack of a sound explanation does not give us recourse to assuming one. The reason atheists always ask theists to demonstrate God's existence is precisely because they know the theists can't do it...if they could, this "debate" would be over long ago.

Your problem is that you're confusing a concept that is fundamentally one of faith with the natural sciences, which attempt to give order to the chaos that is life. As it stands religion does very little to supplement our understanding of how natural phenomena 'are' the way they are, and 'do' the things they do. The recent intrusion into the natural sciences by xtian theorists of 'intelligent design' is embarassing the whole idea of God...you could, hypothetically, toss Darwin out the window, but none of this would help us explain natural phenomena more accurately, which is fundamentally what science is about. If 'intelligent design' only 'succeeds' in the "FirstCause" department by asserting "God", then what exactly does this hypothesis help us with? We neither possess a better understanding of the natural world nor an accurate one, since the "absence" of a known "first cause" does not, indeed, imply simply "God".

Strictly speaking, does this mean God does not exist? Of course not. It doesn't mean anything. But if history can teach you anything it's that not only can you not compete in the natural sciences (because anthropomorphizing God is childish and does you a disservice), but that doing so doesn't actually help us ascertain any truth to the matter.

Really, you are best off to just say "it's a matter of faith". You cannot empirically provide evidence of God's existence, and we don't expect you to. Remember: the lack of an explanation does not mean we can make wild assumptions without evidence.

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#32053 - 11/21/09 11:54 AM The Infamous "Problem of Evil"... [Re: ]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Quote:
what evidence do you have, that made you come to the belief and conclusion, no powerful, all-knowing, eternal God, creator of the heavens, and the earth, exists ?

The Christian God is more than that. He is all loving, just, and eternally good, according to your theologians.
If such a merciful deity is behind all life on Earth, them how do you explain the brutality of nature as seen in these videos?
Doesn't seem like the handiwork of a merciful sky daddy to me:







Meq


Edited by Meq (11/21/09 05:42 PM)
Edit Reason: Disabled autostart on first video

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#32059 - 11/21/09 12:44 PM Re: I am a born again , evangelical Christian [Re: ]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
It is fun to notice that despite the facts that this person is nothing more then yet another ignorant sub-creature violating the current board/social rules, he/she/it deserves more attention then deserved. The most funny thing is the actual discussion of the existance of a god is being held once again.

I carefully hold my position to a nice "fuck-off" and "read before you write". Your two questions have been answered numerous times. Don't be a lazy-ass and start searching thoroughly. A search-option has been implemented.

I would kindly raise my vote to close this topic since it would only end up in a useless discussion of belief/ don't belief.
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#32060 - 11/21/09 01:21 PM Re: The Infamous "Problem of Evil"... [Re: Meq]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
re: Meq

That pretty much hits the nail on the head. Our knowledge of creation and cosmology is vague and fuzzy enough to fill in the gaps with some sort of a "creator" or "creation force", but once you start to give it human attributes, such as "ultimate love" or "omnibenevolence", something starts to look very, very wrong.

===========

All the videos showed the daily struggles of the Animal Kingdom, but it's not that much different for humans. Now, a common argument (which I assume is going to be pulled out here) is to claim that human suffering is caused by individual choice to sin, such as murder, rape, etc.

However, the world is filled with all sorts of natural abominations such as disease, cancers, parasitism, starvation, cannibalism, etc, that Mankind does not cause. If there is a Creator of all of this, he is either too detached from mankind to care about it... or he is an imperfect Demiurge who wants us to suffer, or is not powerful enough to stop it.

To thank God for your blessings, you must also curse Him for all your misfortunes.
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«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#32061 - 11/21/09 01:40 PM Re: The Infamous "Problem of Evil"... [Re: The Zebu]
FriendlyS Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 39
Loc: Toronto, Canada
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
To thank God for your blessings, you must also curse Him for all your misfortunes.


Just to add to this, "It is folly for a man to pray to the gods for that which he has the power to obtain by himself." If God did exist, and he cared so much about those who follow him, do you not think that those who are faithful would have so much more than those who are not? Christians are no more "blessed" than anyone else because anything that can be gotten is gotten by the person, not given to them by their God.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I would kindly raise my vote to close this topic since it would only end up in a useless discussion of belief/ don't belief.


I agree. This forum is not a place for a Christian to come and "understand" Satanism and we should not have to defend what we follow or think for them. There is no proof that God exists because he doesn't, there is no proof that he doesn't exist because a negative cannot be proven. There's not much more to it.

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