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#39857 - 07/03/10 11:51 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Shadow Dragon]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
You might be on to something there but its still annoying and since a person who has had a sex change almost never seems to be able to truly act like one f the other sex its creates a weird appearance where one isnt sure of what they actually are. At least thats how I see it. As I said before I have nothing against it but in some ways it feels forced.

On a related note I discussed the gay culture with a femlae friend of mine and this is roughly what she had to say. She has nothing against homosexuals, she has even been in relationships with women (although she claims it was a phase and not really homosexual or bisexual). She also has gay friends which she used to have no problem with. She says that suddenly alot of them start to wear pink, act feminine, get fake tans only watch "gay movies" and look down upon people who has more traditional gender roles as if they were wrong. She feels that with more freedom for homosexual people the more some of them try to reverse the structure so to speak. If a "man is a man" he'sconsidered a macho swine and if a "woman is a woman" she is considered a bimbo.

I guess its like when one was a teen a some pople started to move into various subcultures and start to change alot (I was probably one of those people to be honest). Others couldnt understand the change and relations gets messed up because the change might not feel sincere for people who knew you before.

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#39864 - 07/03/10 12:52 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: TheInsane]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
"Obviously, this doesn't go for all ftm transwomen. Some are simply very feminine by nature. Others won't act in a feminine manner, even though they are transitioning." Shadow Dragon.

Some good points there but ftms are FEMALE-TO-MALE transsexuals like me! \:\)
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"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#39985 - 07/05/10 04:44 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: felixgarnet]
Shadow Dragon Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 95
 Originally Posted By: felixgarnet
"Obviously, this doesn't go for all ftm transwomen. Some are simply very feminine by nature. Others won't act in a feminine manner, even though they are transitioning." Shadow Dragon.

Some good points there but ftms are FEMALE-TO-MALE transsexuals like me! \:\)

Ha, my mistake. I meant mtf, not ftm. Though I wouldn't be surprised if some ftm transmen acted in an hyper-masculine manner when they first start transitioning.
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"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." - Socrates
Cogito ergo sum.

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#39994 - 07/05/10 12:01 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Shadow Dragon]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
Heh, some do, yes! The metaphorical "pissing contest" is quite a prevalent phenomenon amongst transmen. As is the hairier chest/ legs/face competition. Eventually, things settle down though and we just fall into being ourselves - whatever that may be. I know academics, van drivers, drag artists, photographers and local government officers, as diverse a group as any other.
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#39997 - 07/05/10 08:00 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: felixgarnet]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: felixgarnet
Heh, some do, yes! The metaphorical "pissing contest" is quite a prevalent phenomenon amongst transmen. As is the hairier chest/ legs/face competition. Eventually, things settle down though and we just fall into being ourselves - whatever that may be. I know academics, van drivers, drag artists, photographers and local government officers, as diverse a group as any other.

Throughout this entire thread I keep having flashbacks to an old "Little Annie Fanny" episode in Playboy in which our hapless heroine found herself in the middle of, and completely confused by, an LGBT social affair. One memorable quote: "My girdle's killing me - so's my jock!"

Is this a great country or what?
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Michael A. Aquino

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#39999 - 07/05/10 08:53 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
If you take a drive through San Francisco's "gay areas," you'll see just about every variation of homosexual from the people you'd have no idea for sure, to the trannys who could give some models a run for their money to guys who've opted for ultra feminine from Marilyn to Jessica Rabblt. Same thing for the female to male crowd as well. It's all pretty much just a matter of coming to grips with who and what they are in their mind, and making it show on the outside as best they can. It's seldom trying to BE.

I worked with a preop before I retired, and we were fairly close friends, as friends go. We'd have coffee near the office, share a joke or talk about some of the things going on in his/her life. SHE was in the full dressing and living as a woman phase by about 6 months before I left. You could tell the end result would be a handsome woman... probably not gorgeous, but definitely attractive. One day over lunch came the question. "Jake, once I get the surgery and am finally a woman, would YOU ever have sex with me?" I chugged down a swallow of my drug of choice (Diet Coke) and said, "That would be like doin' my own sister."

The question hadn't crossed my mind. We'd always just been friends, and good ones at that. I don't usually have sex with my friends, but I had to think about my personal comfort levels with a male/female transgender postop. For all intent and purpose, they are female at that point, although incapable of breeding... a plus in my book. I knew postop transexuals that I had a casual relationship with, and while we might joke, a serious liaison never came into question.

I still don't know how I would definitely answer that question, even today. I see them as female and support them in whatever gets them through the night. But having sex with them would probably fall into the same logic that I have when considering sex with a biological female. I'd have to WANT to, and I would have to find something in them that MAKES me want to. As for whether my head could wrap around it psychologically if it came down to it, I suppose that would be something that would have to be figured out in the harsh light of reality.
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#40007 - 07/05/10 11:44 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Jake999]
Clicks Offline
member


Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 114
Loc: New Orleans
Well I guess now is time for my Pattaya story. So basically how it goes is me and my 3 buds were on this tour up there from Khorat, and we get in there about 1 am, rules are we aren't allowed outside the hotel after midnight, but all 40 of us that were there said "fuck it!" and started leaving. We had a pretty good time being molested at all the bars and basically just walking around being menaces. Eventually, at like 4 am, we head back to the hotel and one of my buddies says, "Awright, now, I wanted to get laid tonight, so Miles and Stilwell, you guys go out and bring back some girls for us." So, me and Stilwell head out back to walking street. As soon as we get there this obvious transgender walks up to me saying something about 'sexy man' (I was lied to a lot there). Now Stilwell had it in is head that he had to do something great and bring back a bunch of lady boys to the other guys. I didn't realise his plan until this one particular one and 2 of her friends walked over to us. I was still trying to get legitimately laid though, so when this other girl came walking over from a different bar a little ways down the street I said "Ok Ima go with that one." So, at this point I think what we have is 3 lady boys and 1 legit female. So we head back to the hotel, I take mine upstairs, and the other 3 go with Stilwell to the other guys' room. I get upstairs, and this should have set off my sensors immediately, she just wanted to chill and have beers for a minute. So, we get around to doing what we were going to do, and when it finally comes time I slip it in and realise something is wrong. "Sorry bro, you gotta leave," I say, and she/he gets dressed and leaves. Then I go to the other room, and get a great story about what had happened in there. Stilwell delivered the trannies to the room. One of my buds wears glasses, but apparently could tell right away without them that they girls were dudes. So Stilwell pushes them inside and goes downstairs to smoke while he waits for me to finish. Now, upstairs, my buds were refusing to pay, so one of them, one of my current room mates, leaves the room, with poor Blooms left to fend for himself. Apparently when he still refused to pay them, two of them held him on the bed while the 3rd tries to force oral on him in an attempt to still get him to pay. Now blooms is a big enough guy, so even while drunk, he still manages to break free and escape out the window in his boxers onto a little eve. The lady boys are still waiting inside. Blooms realises that he has a taser that he bought from a 10 year old in the Philippines. So he goes back in the room, grabs it from his nightstand and tases them out of the room. They leave downstairs and demand money from Stilell, claiming that Blooms had sex with all of them. Eventually they leave, and a few minutes later Blooms comes downstairs and tases Stilwell in the outdoor lobby. Then they all head back upstairs and that's when I walk in. Later we got breakfast.

The point of the story, other than being hilarious, is that they do good enough work to be able to trick me, at least until I can get inside, and that I'm not comfortable having sex with a mtf transgender. To me, it's still a dude. And I'm not homophobic, but as soon as I realised, I lost all desire. I don't consider it a bad experience, it was what it was, which was funny as all hell.
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#40013 - 07/06/10 01:15 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Clicks]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
LOL! Not to start sharing military stories about transgenders and GIs... but when I was TDY to Iraklion, Crete, my group went out on the town to down a few and relax after a hard day's work. I dunno what the hell we were drinking, but it tasted something like Turkish RAKI and had a kick like a mule. After a while, we were all dancing with the women and laughing. Before we left, one of the guys was dancing really slow and close with a GORGEOUS woman. The music was soft and the lights were low, and we all sat there at the bar, watching our friend dance with the woman. Soon, we saw his hand go between them at crotch level... he stopped dancing, stood there with a look on his face that was something like a surprised Curley from The Three Stooges. The woman leaned over and whispered something in his ear, then kissed him on the cheek, and they finished off the dance. Afterward, be joined us at the bar and slammed his drink.

We asked, "What the hell was that all about?"
He said, "I decided to feel her up and she had a bigger dick than mine."
We asked, "What did she whisper in your ear?"
He said, "'Don't embarrass me. Just finish the dance and I'll leave.' And I AM a gentleman, so I did."
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#40017 - 07/06/10 09:04 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Jake999]
Clicks Offline
member


Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 114
Loc: New Orleans
The way I described the transgender I was with later in the morning to my buds was as "the sexiest man I'd ever seen." I wasn't drunk at all, and everything looked and felt real on the surface. I'm sure a lot of people that this happens to think, "Why couldn't they tell me beforehand?" But then that would be to them like having never changed at all. Instead of now being a women, they would instead be this man in drag.
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#41555 - 08/07/10 09:22 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Clicks]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
This what I woke up to this morning on FaceBook. A message from a Christian friend of 28 years standing:

Thanks for your greetings Felix. The reason I haven't written to you is very complex. We have been friends together for such a long time and we have both made changes and life changing decisions and respected one another's right to choice and change. But your decision not to be woman anymore has challenged me more than I can say. After years of standing up for our rights as women I cannot accept your decision not to embrace fully your female persona and because of this I don't feel I can be your friend any more because it would be dishonest of me. I do not have many male friends because I do not fundamentally like the male ego or presence. My husband is a very female person and my few male friends I keep at a friendly distance preferring to share my thoughts with women who are supporting women's issues. Of course I know you are not rejecting women's rights and you are still fighting for women's issues but that you are rejecting your personal womanhood means I do not want to talk about any issues because fundamentally you do not want to be part of womankind anymore. So I am sorry that our friendship is ending, it is because I cannot accept a male/transgender friend who is not proud of being a woman.

Well, there's agape in action.
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#41556 - 08/07/10 09:56 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: felixgarnet]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Felix, all I can say is that it's HER LOSS. You've got a place at my table any time. Obviously, your former "friend" has the insurmountable issues and a pretty profound lack of understanding.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#41558 - 08/07/10 11:13 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Jake999]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1137
Loc: Amarillo, TX
Your friend's comment reminds me of the essay Feminist on Testosterone. Some women get the idea in their heads that FTM's are traitors to their sex, as though their sex were supposed to be this guiding bastion of loyalty more important than one's own personal identity.

In Vamps and Tramps, commenting on gays protesting voluntary "correctional" therapy, Camille Paglia noted, "Is gay identity so fragile that it cannot bear the thought that some people may not wish to be gay?" I think the same applies to women who consider FTM's traitors to womanhood. Such a woman must be really insecure in her femininity if she needs all other women to celebrate their XX-ness to constantly affirm to her how beautiful a thing it is to be a woman.

As for the fact that new MTF's sometimes go over the top in expressing their femininity, just as newly "out" gay men sometimes become flamboyantly flaming, Dan Savage explained it best. It's a way of solidifying and confirming a new identity.

He noted that there are heterosexual men who are obnoxious in their expression of their sexual identity, too. Ever been to a frat party? It's a bunch of chest-thumping, ass-smacking, beer guzzling "my dick's bigger than your dick" nonsense. Same thing, different orientation. I think a person acting over the top with his/her sexual identity is preferable to condemning others who don't share it.
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#41569 - 08/07/10 05:05 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: felixgarnet]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Wow, Felix. All I can say is "WHAT THE FUCK????"

What a shitty thing to wake up to, that your friend can't support you in such a fundamental way, and for such a petty reason. Does she not think lesser of men who undergo surgery to become a woman? That's under the 'traitor' category too, isn't it? Or perhaps because they're joining "her" side, it must be ok. Damn.

Pay her no mind, man. Like Jake said, it's HER loss!
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Nothing is sacred.

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#41572 - 08/07/10 05:17 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: felixgarnet]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Sounds like a feminist with a very large amount of sand in her vagina. Possibly a lesbian in denial too; as she takes the time to point out the effeminate nature of her husband and her dislike of "the male ego or presence".

I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to be friends with someone like that anyways. In your position I would say "good riddance".
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No gods. No masters.

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#41587 - 08/07/10 09:48 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
XiaGui - thank you so, so much for that link. I've saved the article to my documents as an invaluable resource. I've been meaning to drop a line to Raven Kaldera for some time now and this may be the ideal excuse! Honestly, this piece is just what people need thrusting under their noses when they start kicking off about FTMs being "traitors" (to what, exactly?) while simultaneously calling MTFs too bad to burn as penis-wielding oppressors. 6 - you're right, this person is a feminist (fine) and may be suppressing lesbian feelings (OK) but for her to use me as a Shadow-Self to punch is not fine or OK. I honestly thought she had more intelligence and integrity than that.
Back to Kaldera - he describes himself along the lines of a "shape-shifting, whiplashinglover of the hermaphrodeities avenger of the transgender dead" which is pretty damn original. His Baphomet Ritual I find especially engaging, for a multiplicity of personal reasons. ;\)
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