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#41608 - 08/08/10 05:20 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: felixgarnet]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Oh but I never said it was okay for her to use you in that matter. In fact, I find it quite despicable. My point was simply to illustrate that a person with such a character is probably not the type of person you would want to see as being a friend.
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#41616 - 08/08/10 07:53 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
Oh, 6 I never said that you said that, LOL! Sorry if it looked like I implied it \:\)
Yes, I agree that maintaining a friendship under those circumstances may not be in my best interests (and they are, after all what counts) but this person needs educating. Do I want to be bothered being her unpaid tutor, though? Not if she doesn't want to listen.
On a somewhat lighter (?) note I plan - when sufficiently inspired ;\) - to offer a thread on gender transition and authenticity in the Subjective/Objective world matrix. It will more than likely include extremely subjective ramblings on the evolution of the Self and references to Levi's Baphomet and the Kabbalah. I hope that people reading this will give me some feedback as to whether this is something they might like to glance over or whether they would rather tear their eyes out with a wire coat hanger and rinse the sockets with bleach. \:\)
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"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#41738 - 08/10/10 08:21 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Nemesis]
Shadow Dragon Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 95
Sorry that you had to go through that Felix. Unfortunetly radical feminists (like other radical groups) don't tend to think things through. They prefer knee jerk reactions.

 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
What a shitty thing to wake up to, that your friend can't support you in such a fundamental way, and for such a petty reason. Does she not think lesser of men who undergo surgery to become a woman? That's under the 'traitor' category too, isn't it? Or perhaps because they're joining "her" side, it must be ok. Damn.

Oh, a lot of the radical feminists also greatly dislike mtf transgendered people as well. For instance, just look at this blog entry:

 Quote:
Should we assume/believe that the male’s urge/behavior to rape women is going to disappear simply because his penis is removed? Incidentally, I don’t think as many men actually surgically transition as they would like people to believe. Therefore, the dick is still there in many cases, waiting, just waiting for a reason to penetrate something or somebody.

http://aroomofourown.wordpress.com/2009/06/22/itisalwayswhatwomencandoformen/
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"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." - Socrates
Cogito ergo sum.

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#50352 - 03/02/11 06:17 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: birdstrike]
humanAreSlime Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 6
Loc: Ohio
The first paragraph, wow total truth. Fucking good shit to contemplate. I've been feeling like I'm a male trapped in a female's body for about five years now. But man, you open my eyes. The seccond paragraph: what the hell? I disagree.

Dog Fashion Disco kicks ass.
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#50357 - 03/02/11 07:03 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: TornadoCreator]
rites Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 23
My partner is a transsexual and we've been together for nearly twelve years now. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
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#50358 - 03/02/11 07:21 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: rites]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
Nice to see some new posts in this thread! I'll look forward to further input, rites and humanAreSlime and offer some of my own when I have a little more time. \:\)
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"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#50543 - 03/07/11 03:54 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: felixgarnet]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
I personally feel that going the way of drugs & scalpel is a tragic form of conformism.

Through the years I have known many a transvestite (sorry for the term, I'm helplessly old-school).
Dabbled a bit there myself as any true child of the 80s .

More or less reached a conclusion in my late 20s.
The rigidity of gender-affiliation in Judeo/Xian culture makes for bewilderment and loss of identity.
I have seen many examples (myself included) of individuals recognizing that they are not THE ONE, so they (somewhat desperately) tries to be THE OTHER.

This is IMO the result of misapplied logic.
I do not think that balance, and thus "happiness" are reached by slicing and/or fucking up your body & mind with chemicals.

It is a matter of coming to terms with your true identity, which of course is a individual mishmash of he/she.

Be what you will...
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Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#50548 - 03/07/11 07:15 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Woland]
TV is God Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
I don't get the obsession with being a certain sex to begin with. If by some magic spell I woke up tomorrow a woman I can't imaging I'd have a crisis about it. Just because I'm a man doesn't mean I have the need to be a man. I'd be me, just as I am, perhaps emotionally influenced by different hormones.

But I don't think of who I am in terms of sex. Yes I like my genitals (in fact I'm rather attached to them) but I wouldn't be heartbroken over the trade. Assuming those hormones don't make me switch teams I'd just be the lesbian version of myself and comfortable with that.

If somebody zapped me with a gay-ray and I suddenly had a hardon for other men. That might confuse the hell out of me for a while but the idea only seems undesirable and unwanted to me because I'm straight.

If it's about being able to act and look like the opposite sex then I don't understand why you feel you have to "be" that sex to do so. It's only a transition as long as you allow societies norms to define what you think of as "being" a man or woman.

The question is what is it to "be" a man or woman. I strip it down to base facts: XX or XY. The belief that having one set of genitals or the other determines who you are is a mistake.

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#50550 - 03/07/11 08:40 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: TV is God]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't know about others but I am without doubt a male. One can say gender does not define what they are but I'd disagree with that. No matter what those flashy female magazines like to write; we males think, feel and act differently. And that is, want it or not, because of our biology.

We are two distinct species for sure and as such, I do understand why some prefer to switch containers, should they, by who knows what reason, have the other biological setup in the wrong type of body.

D.

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#50561 - 03/07/11 02:32 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: TornadoCreator]
Damis Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 60
Loc: England
I'll throw my two pence in here seeing as my personal circumstances have led me to do research into this issue.

A lot of confusion begins with the term 'Transgender' in itself. The term itself is an umbrella term that encompasses a range of behaviours and conditions which 'deviate' from the considered gender norm. This includes Gender-Transients, people who feel their gender identity or physical sex is the opposite of the one they were assigned at birth and even people who consider themselves gender neutral e.g Christie Elan-Cane.

Both the medical and social sciences have been looking into the issues since the first half of the twentieth century but the real research into it really only started in the 1960s with notable people such as Dr Harry Benjamin. Professional attitudes have developed from viewing transgender as a deviation to be corrected and often associated to be a symptom of homosexuality to being seen as a mental condition in which the person feels a profound discomfort, dissatisfaction or misplacement with their current identity which is assigned to them at birth, in reference to their biological sex. Now you may say that the change in attitude is an outcome of steadily liberalised attitudes within society however the case is rather that all the attempts to 'cure' the issue through psychiatric therapy (including applied psychoanalysis and physical treatments such as shock therapy) proved ineffective, in fact it just inflicted damage and stress, this is where Dr.Benjamin made great strides in promoting help that seeks to bring the person inline with the gender identity they feel they are. The point is valid however that as far as I am aware, there is no commonly accepted theory as to the cause of trasgenderism itself, common theories range from the purely psychological to theories of hormonal affects upon the brain of the foetus and studies of differences and similarities of the brains of transgender identified people.

This leads me on to the concept of gender. Modern social sciences tend to view gender nowadays as something apart from the biological state of a body which is seen as the 'sex'. Gender is usually seen as a binary system of masculine and feminine and sex as male and female. Gender being the mainly socially constructed role and behaviour that makes a person a man or a woman, and sex as the physical configuration ultimately designed for the purpose of reproduction. I think that this is a vital distinction which lends credibility to the validity of a person's desire to change their gender identification. Although you could say it's a score one for the psychological side against the physical theory. Or you could even then try and portray it as an issue caused by social constraints around gender and sex relations.

As you can see the lack of information on the causes and the multitude of plausible theories in the face of the diversity of how transgenderism manifests, makes for a fucking minefield of confusion and there are a lot of factors which make finding one comprehensive theory very difficult. A good example is the disparate ratio of MTF (Male to female) to FTM (Female to Male) which is roughly around 3:1. Which I guess is important when it comes to the physical theories of transgenderism. Both sides however report similar feelings and experiences with the issue.

I think the concept of gender as a relative none sex locked sense of identity actually raises an important question. Which is:

If gender is as mentioned above, then it would stand to reason that by simply aligning ones gender to the preferred mode, including style of dress, behaviour and activities, one could remedy the issue, why then is surgery that alters biological characteristics felt needed by many transgender identified people? Does this not question the notion of gender as a relative and instead support the notion of being 'born in the wrong body'?

Well many transgender people see surgery such as breast implants, vaginoplasty, phalloplasty, mastectomy, orchiectomy as a means of bringing themselves inline with their gender identification. You could say that whilst gender isn't essentially locked to biology, it's generally associated with it and for social conformist reasons or personal preference, many undertake these procedures. However then there are some who insist on the full monty of surgical intervention in order to realise themselves in their gender. Without trying to shy away from the question in fear of finding out something I hope not to see, I'll admit that there isn't enough information that I am aware of in order to reconcile the difference in extent to which different people take surgical intervention to redress their discomfort. (In the interest of not appearing as if I'm speaking for anyone who is transgender identified on here, I'd like to add that some object and revile the view of a gender issue as a 'problem' to be 'corrected' and see it as a medicalisation and demonising). Although the sheer difference in knowledge and opinions of the transgender people themselves may play a part in the lack of a total one size fits all regimen of steps to alleviate the negative effects that transgederism has on the people who experience it. Some may take a more pragmatic stance as I've shown above with gender, whilst some may agree with the essentialist opinion of gender bar the opinion of 'wrong body' assignment as false.

Now previously I've covered the concept of gender in relation to the 'treatment' of transgenderism and I briefly brushed on the historical attitudes towards it. So I think it's fitting to provide some social context as well. Whilst there was media coverage of early transgneder people changing their gender (and sex if you equate surgery with the changing of it) such as Christine Jorgensen. They were usually explained in the context of different aspects of the time, Christine herself was said to have been allowed surgical intervention (which if memory serves correctly consisted of her travelling to Denmark for castration) on the grounds of 'him' being a homosexual. The 60's saw the beginnings of a new attitude in treatment like I mentioned above, however it was the 1970s and 1980s which saw transgenderism in it's early form (I'll come back to this) become known as an issue that affected people.
The theme of cross dressing and transvestism during these two decades was unfairly but understandably in my opinion associated with the issue of transgender particularly within the realm of sociological research. The relevance of this upon transgender issues however is that many who had these feelings facing the lack of information on gender issues, either turned to cross dressing as an attempt to alleviate the distress they felt or mistakenly thought themselves to be simply cross dressers. Furthermore cross dressers, transvestites and transgender people often frequented the same social clubs and private societies (Beaumont Society etc). Although in fairness, either way the wearing of clothes associated with the 'opposite gender' is a means of realising and identifying with the target gender anyway, and the cross-dressing aspect can therefore more correctly be associated socially with transgenderism during that time period by on one hand the lack of knowledge or availability of methods for which the trans people could realise how they felt about their identities. And on the other hand, the sheer visual similarities that cross-dressers and transgender people shared in relation to gender. (Wearing clothes associated with the other gender, presenting in a feminine/masculine manner). This blurred distinction can be seen in the pre 21st century works of Richard Ekins.

Coming back to my earlier remark of transgenderism in it's 'early form'. During the late 90s and the 2000s there was a marked change in how transgender was viewed. The awareness of the subtle distinctions of all the categories of people under the term 'transgender' came around, as well as the term itself for that matter. This is known as the 'Paradigm shift'. My guess is that it was a result of the steadily increasing resources of information on the subject together with the changes in the medical profession towards treating trasgenderism. The internet has been a powerful tool in developing the awareness even more through communication and the access to information that helps people to realise how they feel. The transgender archive witnessed a huge explosion of resources during the 90s and 2000s from around 400 or so publications to around 5,000 or more. It seems therefore that information and common communication of people with similar feelings led to the clarification of the social dimension to the issue.

I'd have liked to continue with an explanation of the common medical steps taken when facing the issue of transgenderism and the effects it can have on the lives of people. However this post is racking up length fast and I think the information I've provided is constructive enough for my contribution to the discussion. Hopefully i've been objective in describing the different sides to the matter and the common beliefs on the subject.

Here are some directions for those who would like to look closer into it:

http://www.amazon.com/Transgender-Phenom...99525924&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Male-Femaling-grou...99525998&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Blending-Genders-A...99526028&sr=1-5

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/pages/introduction.aspx

Stupid pricing on the books; I expect they can be found cheaper elsewhere.
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#50566 - 03/07/11 03:51 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: TV is God]
Shadow Dragon Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 95
 Originally Posted By: TV is God
I don't get the obsession with being a certain sex to begin with. If by some magic spell I woke up tomorrow a woman I can't imaging I'd have a crisis about it. Just because I'm a man doesn't mean I have the need to be a man. I'd be me, just as I am, perhaps emotionally influenced by different hormones.

But I don't think of who I am in terms of sex. Yes I like my genitals (in fact I'm rather attached to them) but I wouldn't be heartbroken over the trade. Assuming those hormones don't make me switch teams I'd just be the lesbian version of myself and comfortable with that.

It's easy to say this, without actually having experienced it. Even if you take out the social aspect (such as how others perceive you, which job opportunities are open to you, etc) there are many things in your life that are dictated by your sex (how your body reacts to stimuli, the ways that hormones affect your behavior, the way your body moves, your ability to add muscle mass, your center of gravity, the sensitivity of your skin, the way your hair grows, your scent, your voice, et cetera ad infinitum). Believe it or not, your sex plays a huge role in you life. Most humans would fine being in the body of the opposite sex to be very uncomfortable and would actively try to find a way to change back.

Transsexuals want all (or at least the vast majority) of the things that come with being the opposite sex. It it far more than just changing your genitals.

If somebody zapped me with a gay-ray and I suddenly had a hardon for other men. That might confuse the hell out of me for a while but the idea only seems undesirable and unwanted to me because I'm straight.

 Originally Posted By: TV is God
If it's about being able to act and look like the opposite sex then I don't understand why you feel you have to "be" that sex to do so. It's only a transition as long as you allow societies norms to define what you think of as "being" a man or woman.

If one acts like and looks like a woman pretty much all the time, then one is a woman, or vice versa. It's simply about being who you believe yourself to be.

As for the usage of the word transition, it's because it does greatly change your life over time, in terms of your physical being and your social status. It's a transition in the same way that puberty is a transition.

 Originally Posted By: TV is God
The question is what is it to "be" a man or woman. I strip it down to base facts: XX or XY. The belief that having one set of genitals or the other determines who you are is a mistake.

The problem with this belief is that there are XY women. As in, they were declared female at birth, they have periods and can give birth. And, while it may be a bit rarer, there are also XX males, who are males in every sense of the word except for their chromosomes. Generally, what hormones you're exposed to in the womb plays a larger role in determining physical sex, than the chromosomes do.
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Cogito ergo sum.

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#50570 - 03/07/11 06:33 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Woland]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1147
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Woland
I personally feel that going the way of drugs & scalpel is a tragic form of conformism...
I have seen many examples (myself included) of individuals recognizing that they are not THE ONE, so they (somewhat desperately) tries to be THE OTHER.

This is IMO the result of misapplied logic.

It's probably true that, for some, it's a matter of identity crisis and a need to fit into a distinct category. There are androgyny/gender-queer movements that are promoting comfort with something in between or just something different.

But I also know those who have described their desire to change as a desire specifically for physiological differences and not necessarily a change in identity, role, or social perception.

I've posted Raven Kaldera's link before, but this quote I think is particularly relevant:
 Originally Posted By: Raven Kaldera
Top Nine Things I Hated About Being A Woman:

1. Menstruation. Having to shed blood and have nasty cramps for 25% of my adult life - one week out of four. No way.

2. PMS. Yes, it's real, I had it, and I hated it.

3. Having a cycle - up, down, up, down. I like being steady-state, or as much as my hormone delivery system will let me. No more lunar cycles; I Sing The Body Solar-Electric.

4. Having to worry about getting pregnant when I slept with most penis-people. I did go through pregnancy once, and it was awful. I'm grateful for my daughter, but I'd far rather that someone else could have done that job for me.

5. Having breasts. Now, breasts are great things - again - on other people. Mine just got in the way, bounced when I tried to run, made my clothes fit poorly, and forced me to wear a bra or suffer pain. The only time I was grateful for them was the fourteen months I breast-fed my daughter. After that, I became completely sterile and they were useless. They gave me far less sexual satisfaction than they did trouble, so I got rid of them...because I could.

6. Being short. Well, this one I just have to live with.

7. Not being able to put on enough muscle. Before testosterone, no matter how hard I worked, I could only bind so much muscle to my body. I'm a farmer, and I like having the strength to do the heavy work around my farm.

8. Not having enough body hair. This sounds strange, but I really like having facial and body hair. It's soft and fuzzy and neat to touch. I was always hairy for a woman, and at first I was ashamed of that and plucked out my beard, shaved my body. Then my wife convinced me to just let it grow, and I did. And I wanted more of it. After T, it thickened even more, grew in all over my body like a halo of blond fur, an animal's pelt. I know that right now beards and fur aren't fashionable; that even straight men are starting to shave their chests, but it's what I want on my body.

9. Not having a penis. Why did I want a dick? Why, to have sex with, of course. Sure, you can strap on, but it's not the same as having something with nerve endings that you can penetrate your lovers with. Of course, phalloplasty being the not-very-satisfying experiment that it is, I have to deal with what I have.....which is more dicklike than what I started with, at least.

It seems to me that hormones are a reasonable means to the desired end, in this case.
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#50598 - 03/08/11 04:41 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
No matter what those flashy female magazines like to write; we males think, feel and act differently. And that is, want it or not, because of our biology.

Interestingly you say so. I read an article about the psychological impacts of passage rites. The article compared culture with "strong" rites of passage (from boy to man) with cultures without (or weak) rituals for a boy to become a man. One of their conclusions was that the culture where the boy didn't had a rite of passage could better anticipate on the feelings and ideas of a women. This was achieved by having the boys in isolation and have to rely on their own intellect, endurance and/or other skills to make "the transition". The psychological impact of such rites (both by belief and social view) triggered a stronger difference in thinking between man/woman.

(Can't seem to recover the article, my apologies).

Further reading:
http://www.johnvdavis.com/wild/wrop.htm
http://artofmanliness.com/2010/02/21/male-rites-of-passage-from-around-the-world/
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#50605 - 03/08/11 06:13 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm familiar with that study, it was linked in the article I posted while replying on rites of passage. ;\)

There are quite some differences, on average, between females and males; not implying the physical but at the level of their brains and how they function. Of course, when looking at individual aspects or specific behavior or reactions, how we respond or interpret is an individual issue and certain males might be more feminine in that while certain females might be more masculine.

Culture has impact too but the question is if it is as much cultural impact as it had been some sort from of selective breeding towards a certain preference. There is a new hotbox awaiting science which might explore if certain traits, like a disposition to violence as an example, has become a cultural common because it was a preferred requisite beneficial to the "tribe". There are hints suggesting into that direction but after the race/IQ of the past, very few feel comfortably opening Pandora's box again.

As such, in the non-rites tribe, the empathy might not as much be triggered by having no rites of passage as by reproducing with males that were more empathic than others.

D.

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#50606 - 03/08/11 06:30 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Diavolo]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1147
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
As such, in the non-rites tribe, the empathy might not as much be triggered by having no rites of passage as by reproducing with males that were more empathic than others.


I have to wonder if empathy reflects the sensitivity of someone who has suffered less. Wisenberg's essay "Holocaust Girls/Lemon" goes into this a little bit; she describes privileged, American-born girls who love to read about suffering (such as the Holocaust) because they have never suffered. It's usually those who live comfortably who have bleeding hearts; those who have suffered themselves are more likely to have an attitude of "psssh, you think that's bad?"

I think it makes sense, from an evolutionary standpoint, that those who are well off can afford to feel sorry for others, but those who have been through tough times are less likely to pity.
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