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#50607 - 03/08/11 06:38 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: XiaoGui17]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
What affects empathy most seems to be the level of testosterone one has, which explains why most males are so great at it. There seems to be a correlation in the size difference between your ring and index finger, the longer your ring-finger compared to the index, the more testosterone you have, or were exposed to while being in the womb.

Of course empathy is culturally stimulated too or even socially required and as such, often mimicked while not actually being there. It is a language one can learn even when it is not their natural one. In many groups it is considered bon ton to suffer along. Those that don't are watched with suspicion.

D.

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#50668 - 03/08/11 11:40 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Diavolo]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
There seems to be a correlation in the size difference between your ring and index finger, the longer your ring-finger compared to the index, the more testosterone you have, or were exposed to while being in the womb.

Makes perfect sense, just as hair growing in the palms of your hands indicates ...
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Michael A. Aquino

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#50677 - 03/09/11 03:46 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Quote:
In the Sex ID test we asked people about their index and ring finger measurements. Some scientists believe that the ratio of index finger length to ring finger length indicates how much testosterone we were exposed to in our mother's womb.

Higher testosterone exposure is thought to lead to a longer ring finger. This is determined as early as 14 weeks into a pregnancy.

On average, women's index and ring fingers are almost equal in length because they are exposed to less testosterone. In men, the ring finger tends to be longer because they have higher testosterone levels. In general, women exposed to more testosterone have more 'masculine hands' – ie longer ring fingers.

Sex ID


The "secrets of the sexes" series is quite interesting to watch; it's out there someone on google video.

Oh, and considering your unbelief, may I assume you got a really short ring finger? ;\)

D.

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#50682 - 03/09/11 06:01 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Damis]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Damis
As you can see the lack of information on the causes and the multitude of plausible theories in the face of the diversity of how transgenderism manifests, makes for a fucking minefield of confusion and there are a lot of factors which make finding one comprehensive theory very difficult. A good example is the disparate ratio of MTF (Male to female) to FTM (Female to Male) which is roughly around 3:1. Which I guess is important when it comes to the physical theories of transgenderism. Both sides however report similar feelings and experiences with the issue.


 Originally Posted By: Damis
Well many transgender people see surgery such as breast implants, vaginoplasty, phalloplasty, mastectomy, orchiectomy as a means of bringing themselves inline with their gender identification. You could say that whilst gender isn't essentially locked to biology, it's generally associated with it and for social conformist reasons or personal preference, many undertake these procedures. However then there are some who insist on the full monty of surgical intervention in order to realise themselves in their gender. Without trying to shy away from the question in fear of finding out something I hope not to see, I'll admit that there isn't enough information that I am aware of in order to reconcile the difference in extent to which different people take surgical intervention to redress their discomfort. (In the interest of not appearing as if I'm speaking for anyone who is transgender identified on here, I'd like to add that some object and revile the view of a gender issue as a 'problem' to be 'corrected' and see it as a medicalisation and demonising). Although the sheer difference in knowledge and opinions of the transgender people themselves may play a part in the lack of a total one size fits all regimen of steps to alleviate the negative effects that transgederism has on the people who experience it. Some may take a more pragmatic stance as I've shown above with gender, whilst some may agree with the essentialist opinion of gender bar the opinion of 'wrong body' assignment as false.



Dear Damis.
Thank you for a very enlightening and interesting post.

It's as always a pleasure to see the scientific material "exposed" by a questioning mind.
The one ting we can be certain of is; the scientific community does not know dick shit (pussy shit?) about this subject either...

The scientific approach when it comes to matters of the mind is pure assumption.
Symptoms are displayed? Bring forth drugs & dagger!
Lobotomy gets them home!

Now; if anyone wants to pay for self-mutilation; be my guest.
(Should I as a tax-payer front cash for it? I think not...)

Instead of admitting to the simple approach;

Can we do it?
Yes we can!
(Therefore we just do it...),

both subject and shaman (psychiatric science) insists that it be a matter of correcting nature.
Now; if this were to be a physical condition; where might evolutionary theory enter the equation?

When proving a point, going to extremes will do nicely...
Around 20 years ago, I saw a picture of my first "smoothie".
(Ehhh... Not the soft-drink, the soft-drink I truly detest.)

No; male & female individuals who had their outer (maybe inner as well, I do not know) genitals and gender-specific extremes surgically removed, in order to reach gender/sex neutrality.
That's bodymods for yah, indeed; but maybe not a primary sign of a sound mind and sociological balance?

One other extreme would be Body integrity identity disorder. (Pardon the wiki...)

We, as a society, are driven towards conforming to a socially acceptable identities.
And the individual reaction to this state of affairs, the feelings of estrangement and displacement, can be hurtful and morbid indeed.

It's not my fault!
It's my condition!

We seek diagnosis, always...
We seek the pill who can fix us, always...

White mans burden.
_________________________
Regards

Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#50703 - 03/09/11 01:54 PM I Show You Mine ... [Re: Diavolo]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Oh, and considering your unbelief, may I assume you got a really short ring finger? ;\)

I have a funny feeling that we may be seeing the beginning of the 21st century version of the "mine is bigger than yours" comparison, although I expect this comparison is less likely to be censored by Middle America.

Anyway:



[I had to scan the back, because for some mysterious reason there's so much hair on the front that it obscures my fingertips.]

O.K, Diavolo, let's see yours.

From a purely-scientific standpoint, I think that calloused knuckles (from constant dragging along the floor) would be a more accurate indicator of excess T than one's ring finger ...
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Michael A. Aquino

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#50707 - 03/09/11 02:34 PM Re: I Show You Mine ... [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
lol, close but not enough. I have no scanner to prove the ape is still roaming inside me, but even without that evidence, I will admit my defeat oh Sensei.

At first the idea appeared ridiculous, like phrenology and especially when knowing the big nose or big feet jokes but when I started to explore the "science of the finger"; digit ratio, there seems to be more behind it.

Of course it doesn't imply that within a couple of decades it's another of those scientific strolls in quite the wrong direction.

D.

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#50715 - 03/09/11 03:11 PM Re: I Show You Mine ... [Re: Diavolo]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Well... all I can say is that I got a long ring finger, size 10 shoes and hair for days. And I am like milk... I come in QUARTS!!!

Yep. I'm a MANLY MAN....

"I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok..."
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#50716 - 03/09/11 03:17 PM Re: I Show You Mine ... [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The most amusing thing about men is, that no matter what, they're always comparing "dicks" in any form possible.

I once wrote that when someone would stick a pencil up his ass, within a short amount of time another will grab a beer bottle.

We are truly a different species.

D.

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#50721 - 03/09/11 04:26 PM Re: I Show You Mine ... [Re: Jake999]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Well... all I can say is that I got a long ring finger, size 10 shoes and hair for days. And I am like milk... I come in QUARTS!!!

Yep. I'm a MANLY MAN....

"I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok..."


According to Manswers, that's the least excreted male body fluid, where snot is the most (and the Medical College of Wisconsin)! The ONLY time I watched Manswers with the males in this household and that WAS the one that was on!

"According to the journal of fertility and sterility, a guy busts off 1/10 of an ounce of gunk from his junk per funk session."

Right around 5:42 in the show....
http://www.livedash.com/transcript/manswers/7038/SPIKEP/Monday_February_7_2011/558238/

Sorry Jake..... \:\/
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If only just for today.....

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#50722 - 03/09/11 04:49 PM Re: I Show You Mine ... [Re: Nyte]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
I'll post more profound stuff on here when I've time. ;\)

Meanwhile . . . my index and ring fingers are almost the same length but the ring finger is a fraction shorter, like most natal females but not as pronounced. I like to think of my hands as hermaphrodite (almost). \:\)
Just for the hell of it a few years ago, those of us running a Transgender Arts Festival malarky over here decided to ask people to make a print of their hand on the way in and note a) what sex they were assigned at birth and b) if they identify any differently now. EVERY natal male, even the ones who now lived as female had a "male" hand BUT so did those born female and now living as male, even if they had had no testosterone treatment! At least 30 female-to-male transssexual folk turned up and EVERY ONE had a a long ring finger! I must be the exception that proves the rule - whatever that means. \:D
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#50728 - 03/09/11 07:23 PM Re: I Show You Mine ... [Re: felixgarnet]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
Following this logic apparently my right hand got more ~T~ than my left. What was this thread about again? Oh yes transgendered people.

Not really on topic but not far off I had to pick up my sister and her wife due to car trouble they get in the car and start making fun of the transgendered guy in the store. I listened for a few minutes before pointing out to them that they are not very different living the alternative lifestyle they do.

Ok more than one line.

~T~ (for testosterone) lol
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We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#50729 - 03/09/11 07:42 PM Re: I Show You Mine ... [Re: Diavolo]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I once wrote that when someone would stick a pencil up his ass, within a short amount of time another will grab a beer bottle.

Truer words were never spoken ...

 Quote:
"DAVIS PARTY PERFORMER SAYS HE'S SATANIC PRIEST"
- by Don Lattin, Chronicle Religion Writer
San Francisco Chronicle
May 8, 1997

San Francisco's civic sideshow got even stranger yesterday when the performance artist whose S&M act headlined a political birthday bash revealed himself as a Satanic priest.

Rev. Steven Johnson Leyba, an ordained priest in the San Francisco-based Church of Satan, had a satanic Pentagram carved on his back as part of the entertainment at political consultant Jack Davis' 50th birthday party Saturday night.

Davis' evening of debauchery was attended by many of the city's leading politicos and the top brass for the 49ers - the same folks who've hired Davis to convince San Francisco voters that the city needs a new football stadium.

Leyba, who leads a performance troupe called the United Satanic Apache Front, is upset that amid all the uproar over last week's party no one has explained why he goes onstage to be sodomized with a Jack Daniels bottle by a woman who dresses up like Pocahontas.

"The act is a literal metaphor for how alcohol was forced upon my people," said Leyba, who is one-quarter Mescalero Apache.

Leyba sees himself in the Native American tradition of the trickster - a clown of contrariness who seeks to "sabotage complacency".

Yesterday the trick was on Davis and local politicians trying to convince city voters to approve a June 3 bond measure to build a new 49er stadium and shopping mall. "No new stadium," said Leyba, explaining that he's against the measure because he used to get beat up by football players at his high school in Camden, Arkansas.

Leyba said he was ordained two years ago by the notorious Anton LaVey, who founded the Church of Satan in San Francisco in 1966.

Assisting Leyba in Saturday night's act - playing the part of Pocahontas - was Danielle Willis, a San Francisco performance artist, poet, and author.

Leyba calls his self-styled ritual the "Apache Whiskey Rite". It includes having a satanic Pentagram carved in his back, and being urinated on by other members of his troupe.

Yesterday, as several amazed customers looked on, Leyba sat in a San Francisco coffee house and proudly displayed his satanic scars to a Chronicle reporter and photographer.

"We were the main part of the show," Leyba said, referring to the birthday party. "Everyone said the strippers got naked, but they didn't. They were just go-go dancing. The only other person beside me who was naked was someone called 'The Diesel Dyke'."

Asked who hired him to perform at Davis' party, Leyba replied, "I'm not at liberty to discuss that. My lawyer told me not to discuss that."

LaVey, the Church of Satan leader, could not be reached for comment yesterday. And representatives of the Mescalero Apache tribe in New Mexico said they never heard of Leyba or the "Apache Whiskey Rite".
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#50735 - 03/09/11 09:11 PM Re: I Show You Mine ... [Re: ta2zz]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1143
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
Following this logic apparently my right hand got more ~T~ than my left.


Same here, only in reverse. On my left hand my ring finger is longer than my index finger, but on my right hand my index finger is longer than my ring finger.



This could be the new salad dressing test...
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Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

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#50739 - 03/09/11 10:27 PM Re: I Show You Mine ... [Re: XiaoGui17]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
LOL! OK... I STILL like Bleu Cheese on occasion. But then I was always persnickity that way. \:\)
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#57885 - 08/01/11 06:45 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Stag]
Ophelia Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 9
Loc: Portland, ME
Gender is a social construction based on our sexual organs. When we're born we're placed in either category, boy/man or girl/woman. We humans create roles to play in social relationships. Gender is a loaded word. It can mean many things to many people. Gender to me is how you act, dress, eat, how you react to certain stimuli, etc. You may be genderqueer, someone who is neither feminine or masculine but both.
As for feminism, it is neither about hating men nor women trying to act like men. It is a movement aimed at ending sexism either towards women or men be them trans, bi, Muslim, queer, etc. The movement is called feminism because of the history behind the term. Originally feminism can from France (with Christine de Pizan: querellas des femmes: the woman question).
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Yahweh is the only god I would have a party with.

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