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#59475 - 09/25/11 04:17 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: TornadoCreator]
Ashley Corinne Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Utah
As a woman trapped in a man's body, I have a lot to say on this topic. But I won't say too much.

I'm a queer sort of individual (no pun intended) because I'm physically male, psychologically female, but I'm a tomboy who likes girls. So I'm basically a straight man. Weird. Even on the rare occasion that I've told people about my gender identity they usually don't believe me. If God does exist, I guess he has a sense of humor.

But I'm making light of a serious topic. Transgendered people like me have an abnormally high suicide rate, and we are also targeted for "hillbilly justice" - that is, violence (beatings, rape, murder, etc.)

Transgendered people represent a small fraction of humanity, and thus we are a greatly under-represented community. It's very sad and I don't want to get too depressed about it.
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~Ashley

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#59479 - 09/25/11 10:29 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Ashley Corinne]
RAIDER Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 152
Loc: PA
I've heard reports of men in Jamaica performing 'corrective rape' on lesbian woman in their communities.......once the women 'come out of the closet' they aren't safe.
This shit....the 'hillbilly justice' fucking burns me up.
There were times in human history when homosexuals and transgendered folks were not only accepted, but even thought of as special, having both masculine and feminine qualities....of course this predates the major religions.
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DARK WOLF

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#59515 - 09/26/11 03:26 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Ashley Corinne]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
I'm a queer sort of individual (no pun intended) because I'm physically male, psychologically female, but I'm a tomboy who likes girls. So I'm basically a straight man. Weird.


Weird indeed. Having never been a female, how can you say you are psychologically female? Especially since you admit to liking girls and saying you are "basically a straight man."
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No gods. No masters.

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#59529 - 09/26/11 11:35 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1641
Loc: Orlando, FL
This is actually rather common; most trans guys I've met are "straight".

I think it's more of a body image thing. Trans men don't feel comfortable in male bodies; they feel like when they look in the mirror they should see a woman. If getting a gender change makes them feel better; more power to them. To me, it's no stranger than getting a tattoo, piercing, or other sort of body mod.

That's just my opinion as an outsider.
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«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#59530 - 09/27/11 12:08 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: The Zebu]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Oh, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with transgender people, the way this was explained just seemed odd to me is all.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#59562 - 09/27/11 06:26 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
RAIDER Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 152
Loc: PA
As an outsider also............my take is that gender identification and sexual orientation are two entirely different matters. I'm male and identify as male......being male feels natural to me. I am attracted to men primarily....I identify as gay ( societies label, but anyone who speaks English gets it).
Gender and orientation aren't always as 'black and white' as society would like to pretend.
The Kinsey Report demonstrates this very well, at least for orientation.
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DARK WOLF

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#59579 - 09/27/11 09:45 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: RAIDER]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
As an insider ;\) I'll get back to you on this in more detail later.
Raider - you're right. 6Satan - you make very valid points and they are ones that many transpeople tie ourselves into knots over, too!
Ashley - I know what you mean by the "straight man" thing! Many people assume I'm lesbian or from a lesbian background but I'm not. The majority of my partners have been male; my fiancee is a transwoman and father of two.
Zebu - by the way, transmen are people like me (female to male), whereas male to female people are transwomen. \:\)
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#59592 - 09/28/11 11:52 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: felixgarnet]
Wicked Satanist Offline
member


Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 244
Loc: Michigan
felix, I would be most interrested in reading what you have to say on the subject.

As for me, I am a straight male, I live with my girlfriend of 6 years, and enjoy many aspects of sex that might even be labeled as gay... foot fetish, bondage, especially anal play, etc. But I find these things fascinating.

I do work with a guy who is a pre-op and other than the fact that he talks to fucking much, he's awesome. Fun to be around, very intelligent, and charismatic. Everyone we work with thinks he is gay, but it's not the case. He doesn't get into details with most people at work because it's none of their business. But he is a woman inside and it shows. I think he even hates his genitalia and is looking forward to having it removed.

I want to just better understand this topic... it's my reason for the reply.
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Forever in Darkness,
Timothy

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#59912 - 10/11/11 03:13 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: TornadoCreator]
Impure Ayucaba Offline
lurker


Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 4
Loc: Florida
Although, I haven't fully spent the time to read all the replies towards your post, recently I wrote a short research psychology essay on transgenderism and sexually neutral environments for those "certain" transgendered children and Id to share a little bit of what I researched.

First and foremost rarely is there a female "transgendered" child even from the toddler stages, "true" transgenderism is mainly seen in young male children. And for the most part they rarely have problems with their genetalia, unless symbiotic discourse is to blame-usually with the mother and i.e. object associations within detrimental environments.

From the research I have gathered this in my opinion contingent upon working experts data this is the only true "form" of transgenderism, everything else is catagorized as homosexual, bisexual and so on. Concerning "transsexuals" there are the "no-hos" trans and the "post-op" transexuals i.e no-hos means no hormones.

Perhaphs it is simple to denote what an homosexual is due to gender variance opposed to a child that already has naturally derived at "their" intended sexual orientation.

If you had a child, transgendered or not how would you raise this children charged to gender roles through traditional societal inference with an appeal for a possible scope on gender neutrality?
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The dark path does not claim to be for all. -Thomas Karlsson

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#59915 - 10/11/11 04:41 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Impure Ayucaba]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
 Originally Posted By: Impure Ayucaba
Although, I haven't fully spent the time to read all the replies towards your post, recently I wrote a short research psychology essay on transgenderism and sexually neutral environments for those "certain" transgendered children and Id to share a little bit of what I researched.

First and foremost rarely is there a female "transgendered" child even from the toddler stages, "true" transgenderism is mainly seen in young male children. And for the most part they rarely have problems with their genetalia, unless symbiotic discourse is to blame-usually with the mother and i.e. object associations within detrimental environments.

From the research I have gathered this in my opinion contingent upon working experts data this is the only true "form" of transgenderism, everything else is catagorized as homosexual, bisexual and so on. Concerning "transsexuals" there are the "no-hos" trans and the "post-op" transexuals i.e no-hos means no hormones.

Perhaphs it is simple to denote what an homosexual is due to gender variance opposed to a child that already has naturally derived at "their" intended sexual orientation.

If you had a child, transgendered or not how would you raise this children charged to gender roles through traditional societal inference with an appeal for a possible scope on gender neutrality?


As someone who has lived with a transgender identity (born female) for almost 60 years and has an MA in Gender, Sexuality and Culture I feel it incumbent upon me to point out why I find your post extremely problematic.

You seem to confuse sexuality (sexual orientation - hetero, gay, etc) with gender identity. The two are completely separate; someone who has transitioned their gender (made certain changes to live as the sex they feel themselves to be) may be attracted to members of that same sex, or the "opposite", or both or nobody. Transgender people are not extreme examples of gay people exhibiting cross-gender behaviour (for example, a cross-dressing, feminine gay man).

It is simply not true that "true transgender" folk (where on earth did you get that term?) are usually male children. Calculating the number of people who personally identify as a gender other than the one they are assigned at birth is an impossible task because such a personal situation may remain hidden from data-gatherers and is also culturally bound. It is neither the concern nor the business of researchers to say who is "truly" transgender, any more than it is mine to decide whose experience is authentic. Unlike the self-styled "experts" you have read (and I very much assume one of them to be Michael Bailey) we respect the identity and struggle of others and don't attempt to classify them with names which they may feel inappropriate.

Neither is it accurate to say they "rarely have problems with their genitalia"; many do have a loathing of them while others make the best of what they were born with so long as they can endure this.

"No-ho" means nothing out of context. People may seek hormonal therapy and be denied it due to ignorant doctors, poverty, insurance which does not cover it or because of pre-exiating medical conditions.

"Post op" means little, too. To which "ops", exactly is this supposed to refer? Many laypeople will assume it to mean that which goes on below the waist. In fact, many transmen do not have any modification made of their genitals as it is a very dangerous, long-winded and expensive process which can take up to two years.

As to your reference to child-rearing, this again conflates gender and sexuality.

"Perhaphs it is simple to denote what an homosexual is due to gender variance opposed to a child that already has naturally derived at "their" intended sexual orientation."

This makes no sense, even grammatically.

I don't have children but my partner, a transgender woman, does. She raises them to be the best they can be and if they declare themselves to be other then their current birth certificates say then I am sure she and their mother will offer support as required and not assume the end of the world is nigh.

I'd advise you to conduct any further research by reading the work of scholars who actually know what they are talking about. Suggested authers: Kate Bornstein, Leslie Feinberg, Stephen Whittle, Jamieson Green, Julia Serano.
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#59939 - 10/11/11 02:46 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: felixgarnet]
Impure Ayucaba Offline
lurker


Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 4
Loc: Florida
Well, as it was a paper on gender neutral environments which i didn't fully elaborate on was my fault and for your remainder of the reply you sent me all I can say is that the "Scientific Method" is still steadfast in all avenues of the sciences. I'm sure people will identify with all sorts of assertions even with expertise but when it comes down to it no one is right.
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The dark path does not claim to be for all. -Thomas Karlsson

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#59960 - 10/11/11 04:54 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Impure Ayucaba]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
A research paper on gender neutral environments would have to have access to these for its samples and, so far as I know, attempts at creating them are very few and far between. What exactly was the purpose behind the paper? If it was to study the gender identity of children raised in an environment which aimed for gender neutrality then fair enough. However, no humane environment could possibly exclude all modern media - unless that was also part of the plan - so there would be "gendered" material accessible to children, such as television and newspapers which would inevitably impact on their perception of themselves.

The two families I know of personally where the children are raised to decide for themselves who and what they are and how best to express it have found that the latter are largely indifferent to the boy/girl toy market but understand that most people work within a binary sex model.

You are correct to say no one is right when it comes to science and its attempts to unravel human identity. Transgender and intersex people have a very negative experience with Science for the most part as it has been used to put them in mental institutions, sterilize them and operate on their genitalia a few hours after birth without informed consent.

I would like researchers to re-focus their attention away from trans people's personal lives and turn their attention to just why so many people feel the need to affirm as men or women and protect this to the point of violence. There is not, and never has been, any scientifically verifiable proof that sex as a category actually exists, including that of chromosomology. Genitals, XX and XY, pre-natal development, brain sampling - none of this offers the answer to what sex or gender identity is. I must reiterate for any scientists who may be reading, "Nothing about us without us", please. We have worked at this a lot longer and harder than anyone else.
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#60163 - 10/17/11 11:01 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: felixgarnet]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1641
Loc: Orlando, FL
I'm hardly one to argue that gender doesn't exist, but an open-minded person should never expect an individual to conform to whatever arbitrary cultural standards mandate for gender "identity". In my opinion it's on the same level as other labels such as "race"- to conform means little more than to adhere to stereotypes. Anyone with the slightest shred of individuality realizes that such phenomena are merely constructs.
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«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#60164 - 10/17/11 11:18 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: The Zebu]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
Yes, exactly.
There's often confusion when someone uses the term "transgender" because it is incorrectly assumed to mean an ultra-masculine woman or an ultra-feminine man (in the conservative senses of those descriptors). However, it is not about gendered performance but is, in the UK, usually used as an alternative word for transsexual, because the latter suggests a sexual orientation or practice rather than a core identity with another sex.

Many transsexual/transgender people are not conservative in their gendered behaviour or heterosexual in preference. I'm not "masculine" in the "typical" (?) sense and my partner is a male to female transsexual who is pretty butch and tough and rips motorbikes to bits as a hobby. She is also father to two children (not mine) but cannot live happily as a man; neither do I feel complete as a woman. \:\)
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#64887 - 02/25/12 03:18 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: TornadoCreator]
namingthestars Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 14
Several of my friends (including one who I respect more than almost anyone else) are FtM or MtF transsexuals, and I'm completely supportive of them, as well as very protective (people better not insult them when I'm around). I'm very sympathetic towards how hard it is to be transgender, so I admire their strength to go through that. I also have two friends who claim to be genderless, and while I'm kind of skeptical, I still respect their feelings on that.

As for the third group, I could almost fit into that, though I don't consider myself transgender. There have been plenty of times when I wished to be the opposite sex, but in general, I just consider myself a girl with an extremely masculine spirit. I usually prefer to be a girl and I don't dress butch or anything like that, though it would be fun to try being a guy if there was a way to instantly switch back and forth.

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