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#64916 - 02/26/12 12:37 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: namingthestars]
RAIDER Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 152
Loc: PA
I really like this topic as it challenges the very notion of what 'normal' is. It would seem that transgenderism, by it's very existence, would be the antithesis of biological reality....but any study of transgenderism in the animal kingdom proves otherwise....it's fucking fascinating...ie.-fish that can change their gender, animals that can diguise themselves as their 'opposite' gender......these are NATURAL occurnces.
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#64926 - 02/26/12 04:21 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: RAIDER]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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You can't compare the ability of specific animals to change gender with humans trying to change their gender.

That's like me saying that surgically adding horns to my skull is very natural because goats and cows have them too.

That's a comparison that just does not make sense.

D.

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#64930 - 02/26/12 07:26 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Diavolo]
RAIDER Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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I'm not comparing them, humans are obviously a different species ...and, as such, express a shift in gender in a different manner. Also, one does not have to have surgury to consider oneself transgendered.
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#64931 - 02/26/12 07:27 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: RAIDER]
felixgarnet Offline
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Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 689
Loc: UK
 Originally Posted By: RAIDER
I really like this topic as it challenges the very notion of what 'normal' is. It would seem that transgenderism, by it's very existence, would be the antithesis of biological reality....but any study of transgenderism in the animal kingdom proves otherwise....it's fucking fascinating...ie.-fish that can change their gender, animals that can diguise themselves as their 'opposite' gender......these are NATURAL occurnces.


Yes, I find these stories fascinating and personally valuable, too. \:\)
Diavolo makes a good point, though. Even though we are all in a continual state of change so far as hormones go, we can use artificial means to create the physical body which most closely mirrors our innate sense of "self".
I now have the testosterone levels of a genetic male and this automatically causes redistribution of fat away from the hips, deeper voice, a shift in the skull plates to a more masculine face, firmer musculature and increased body hair.
It also makes your pee smell, your appetite ravenous and produces the urge to fiddle about with your genitalia (which also grows considerably) at any opportunity. Or encourage someone else to. \:D


Edited by felixgarnet (02/26/12 07:40 PM)
Edit Reason: Incorrect name!
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#64932 - 02/26/12 07:58 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: RAIDER]
Diavolo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: RAIDER
I'm not comparing them, humans are obviously a different species ...and, as such, express a shift in gender in a different manner. Also, one does not have to have surgury to consider oneself transgendered.


It's not about different species, it's that to desire another gender, you need to have a notion of self. Without this, you don't have a notion of your sex either. This rules out the majority of animals and explains why you won't see a chicken stick feathers up its ass in an attempt to be a rooster.

Gender change in animals is of a completely different nature and evolved because it improved the odds of their survival. But at no point, it is related to individuality.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (02/26/12 08:39 PM)

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#64933 - 02/26/12 10:09 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Diavolo]
RAIDER Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 152
Loc: PA
Diavolo........I agree that gender change in different animals is different. This is a species specific thing. Some species physically become the other gender, some imitate the other gender without a physical transformation, and humans ( with some help, as felix explains) can do both.
Yes, the motivation for species other than human would be survival.
My intention was to present information, I think you're confusing comparing with contrasting.
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#72339 - 10/31/12 10:43 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: RAIDER]
Naama Offline
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Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 318
Loc: NewYork
I am theoretically fascinated with the idea of transgenderism.
From what I've read about shaman culture ... gender transformation was considered to be one of the best achievements that a shaman can do.

Having lesbian sex with beautiful MtoF sounds irresistible...
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#76129 - 04/26/13 08:46 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: felixgarnet]
IGNVSA Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 7
Loc: Manchester, Maryland
Ive been looking for ways to tie my Satanism into my transition, as well as intriguing reads on both subjects. I think its a hice idea.
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#76137 - 04/27/13 02:08 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: IGNVSA]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3220
 Quote:
Ive been looking for ways to tie my Satanism into my transition, as well as intriguing reads on both subjects. I think its a hice idea.

How about viewing it as the transition of the dominant male approach of Satanism, through the use of archetype and symbols, towards the more feminine approach where there is a striving to embody the virtues of a Satanic witch/goddess Baphomet?

To understand the primarly male-oriented approach I refer to the "classics": Satanic Bible, Devils notebook, PostModernSatanism...
For the more female orientated approaches I refer to:
This (shameless self-promotion) and this one (PDF)
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#76179 - 04/29/13 01:42 PM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: Dimitri]
IGNVSA Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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Loc: Manchester, Maryland
I find it intriguing that you would suggest such a perspective, and follow it with a link containing comparisons between Baphomet and Freyja. These thoughts had actually been cropping up in my own mind, over the past several months; but seperately.
Oddly enough, the thought to combine them had never occured. Thank you for that insight.
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#76425 - 05/18/13 10:49 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: TornadoCreator]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7041
Loc: Virginia
It's a fascinating topic. A recent news report which may be of interest to you: Couple sues state over Surgery The Crawford's adopted child (now 8) was assigned a gender by removing ambiguous genitalia. They claim at this stage the child identifies as male, seeks to look male and dress in boy's clothing.

This case is unique in that the child has both reproductive structures internally, so it wasn't just the removal of a superficial penis.

What most Clinicians have opined about the issue is that gender identity develops over time vs. a genetic predisposition for gender-identity.

In my personal observation, the sense of self is nurtured over time and the sum total of influences and experiences. This notion of 'Born This Way', I remain skeptical of.

In my personal dealings with friends and associates that are transgendered, it seems to be a social issue vs. one of biology. I think it makes some people happy to go through the motions of transforming their gender from one to another or in some cases none at all, such as gender-neutral. Others seem to go through a constant state of internal conflict and that emanates from every pore of their being. Pretty tragic if you ask me.

I know of a young high school girl (a friend of my BF's younger sister) who was born with no internal reproductive organs or genitalia. A surgery had to be performed for her to be able to defecate. She's an extremely pretty girl, but she's tried to commit suicide a number of times and has been in and out of Mental Hospitals for years (as well as heavily medicated).

As far as Clinical Gender goes, they've basically used the Genetic markers to sex her, but ideally she has no sex. She's been reassured that later in her live (post maturity) she can seek to construct genitalia for normalcy. I remain skeptical that this child will ever feel normal, no matter what hope she's offered for the future.

The condition is rare, but it's a birth defect that people prefer to keep private. I recall a news report of a woman born in Norway that made headlines. She was more or less a subject of ridicule and perhaps an oddity of fascination more than anything else. ( article here )

Socially, the issue of gender will always be part of our cultural strata. With gender-roles and law that seeks to protect people from... Well, other people. How can it not be?

As a woman, I don't sit around contemplating my gender. Even when faced with obvious sexism, I just find it telling of a person's mind and the correlations they make.

As a mother of a male child, I can tell you people make a big deal about gender when your raising offspring. When my son was just an infant, I feel pretty confident that he viewed me as God. He sought to emulate everything I said and did and looked upon me with such awe and admiration. It's surreal when you're a young mother. One of his favorite things to do was to watch me apply make-up. He wanted to emulate that, so I gave him empty make-up containers so he could pretend. When his father saw him patting his nose with a powder compact, I thought he was going to explode. He lambasted me on the dangers of turning him into a Queer. Naturally, I'd respond to this from a critical stance rather than react to his antics. He'd been programmed as a man, and his sense of self seemed to stem from what others told him he was, and should be. He was (is) always concerned with other people thought or would think. I didn't allow him to have such influence over my child, but you can't shelter them from everything.

No matter what you do or say, every person is subjected to influence. Whether by care-givers, television, peers, or the systems within any given society.


I've also seen my fair share of how children turn out being raised by Single parents (we weren't married long). Some women/men replace adult male companionship with that of their children, and turn their kids into perplexed human beings that often suffer an identity crisis.

It's all rather complex as each person is an individual, but generally speaking I still feel pretty firmly that gender identity is a social mechanism vs. a biological one.
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#76621 - 05/24/13 12:51 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: SIN3]
IGNVSA Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 7
Loc: Manchester, Maryland
I suppose "fascinating" may be the best way to describe the subject of gender, in my mind. I only began my research about a year ago, on a genderqueer site (genderqueerid), but I spent the first three days and nights enthralled in the discussions I read.

Ive also found the subject of intersex to be something amazing; though, I'm so caught up in my transition I've been focusing more on that.

"Born this way": this is something that I'm not particularly crazy about; honestly, I feel like I had little choice in my gender, but if someone chose to be male, female, GQ, etc. there should be no shame in that either. While justifying being trans* (something I feel needs no justification) with "it's not a choice", we may be harming those who have chosen (if anyone does choose). Not to mention, the brain is plastic, and changes over our lives; therefore gender, a part of how we see ourSelves, may well be plastic too.
Im using a PS3, and it limits how much I can type, so Ill probably have to stop typing now.


Edited by IGNVSA (05/24/13 12:56 AM)
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#76622 - 05/24/13 12:56 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: SIN3]
IGNVSA Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 7
Loc: Manchester, Maryland
I suppose "fascinating" may be the best way to describe the subject of gender, in my mind. I only began my research about a year ago, on a genderqueer site (genderqueerid), but I spent the first three days and nights enthralled in the discussions I read.

Ive also found the subject of intersex to be something amazing, though, I'm so caught up in my transition I've been focusing more on that.

"Born this way": this is something that I'm not particularly crazy about; honestly, I feel like I had little choice in my gender, but if someone chose to be male, female, GQ, etc. there should be no shame in that either. While justifying being trans* (something I feel needs no justification) with "it's not a choice", we may be harming those who have chosen (if any does choose). Not to mention, the brain is plastic, and changes over our lives; therefore gender, a part of how we see ourSelves, may well be plastic too.
Im using a PS3, and it limits how much I can type, so Ill probably have to stop typing now.
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#76624 - 05/24/13 06:58 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: IGNVSA]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7041
Loc: Virginia
My thoughts on shaming, is that the person who identifies is the person attached to shame. For example, if a person did choose to change their gender through physical manipulation, any opinion about that shouldn't incite shame in a person unless they personally feel ashamed. If they do, they may want to reflect on that. People usually do the most harm to themselves.

I agree, in terms of the 'self'. That perception can change many times over a lifetime; however I'm not entirely certain that the core does.
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#101058 - 06/25/15 04:07 AM Re: Transgenderism. [Re: x.emo.danny.x]
Blood Cleric Offline
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Registered: 05/28/15
Posts: 39
Loc: California
I would for the sake of your own sanity veer away from gender stereotypes. They are often more harmful than not. If you seem to be drifting towards a new gender identity than go with the flow but at the very least understand the procedures that will make a more complete you before going through with them fully; basically research the hell out of your options before making steps.

All the best of luck in your self searching.


Edited by Blood Cleric (06/25/15 04:07 AM)
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