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#33083 - 12/20/09 04:11 PM Subjectivity is Truth
Natalia666 Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Alabama
"Subjectivity is Truth." -Kierkegaard

I have been pondering this statement. Is Subjectivity Truth? Is this really the essence of "magick" or any impacting philosophy? For the longest I was a devout theistic witch. Then over time I began to pick at what I found to be true. Slowly I became Atheist, then agnostic, nihilistic, then theistic, I went from one to the other.

For awhile I considered if one's Subjectivity was based completely on Objectivity then it was the most "rational and healthiest" way of being. But this alone is not enough. Satanism states we are "God" of our Subjectivity. I agree. But what of ritual and "magick"? Does "Subjectivity is Truth" tie into using fantasy and emotionalism of ritual to further enhance/empower the Subjective?

I feel my Subjective has been weak and flimsy for too long. Yet I find it hard to indulge in a strong 'magickal' Subjectivity because I feel it is at odds with Objectivity. Does that make sense?

In essence, is it true to say Satanism/LHP is empowering the Subjective Perspective to a powerful and "Godlike" state?

thanks,
natalia
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"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
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#33084 - 12/20/09 04:58 PM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: Natalia666]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3109
 Originally Posted By: wikipedia
Subjectivity refers to a person's perspective or opinion, particular feelings, beliefs, and desires. It is often used casually to refer to unsubstantiated personal opinions, in contrast to knowledge and fact-based beliefs.
Objectivity is both a central and elusive concept in philosophy. While there is no universally accepted articulation of objectivity, a proposition is generally considered to be objectively true when its truth conditions are "mind-independent"—that is, not the result of any judgments made by a conscious entity. Objective truths are those which are discovered rather than created.


 Quote:
I feel my Subjective has been weak and flimsy for too long.

Taking the definition of "subjectivity" (in a philosophical sense) I'm starting to wonder what you meant with this part...

From occult knowledge I can say that all things seen, touched,.. are nothing more then subjective sensations. Yet LHP/Satanism (IMO) only empowers a subjective perspective if the power of logic is being used. Everything is being perceived subjectively, yet to attain this "powerfull-state" an objective viewpoint should be put forth and be maintained.

In other words: Think before acting/ giving in to an impulse.


Edited by Dimitri (12/20/09 05:00 PM)
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#33086 - 12/20/09 05:07 PM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: Dimitri]
Natalia666 Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Alabama
I meant that as in, my Subjective perspective has not been very forceful or stern. It has went from one perspective to another, one philosophy to another, one belief to another.

If "magick" is conforming the Objective to the Subjective, then it would require a steadfast and impacting Subjective perspective. Like a stern hand molding Reality to one's Will.
_________________________
"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
-Simone De Beauvoir




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#33090 - 12/20/09 08:38 PM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: Natalia666]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Hi Natalia,

Subjectivity and objectivity are tricky little beasts, in my opinion.

Truth claims about the world and about ourselves tend to be defined in so called objective terms.

If you read Habermas' 'Philosphical Discourses of Modernity,' which is a good book, you will find that the dominant concern of modern philosophy (in nis view) is the question regarding the subject/object relation, and more specifically the critique of a subject centered reason, and a resulting object of knowledge.

I am personally skeptical, regarding what Claude Levi-Strauss described as 'the spoilt brat of philosophy,' that is the Cartesian cogito and I would extend this to the Husserlian ego.

I am in fact skeptical regarding any subject centered discourse.

The reason? Because the philosophical subject is an illusion, a construct, an effect of language and discourse in my view.

I would also be tempted to extend my skepticism to such philosophical positions as the absolute validity and Platonic formalism of universals and particulars, and of the Hegelian notion of dialectical progress.

Oops I better be careful though, cause I may have a very prominent of the 600 club member after me.

P.S. What is Satanic magic? The successful mainpulation of cultural codes in my view.

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#33091 - 12/20/09 09:28 PM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: ]
Natalia666 Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Alabama
Well, if we look at Subjectivity as our own Individual Perspective. And Objectivity is the Universe at Large, as in, the world we live in without a bias lens, aka Realism.

Of course one can debate if the Objective is actually Subjective and go into Quantum mechanics, etc etc. There are many theories including Solipsism. One can say there is no separation between the two. There are too many theories without enough firm evidence. What we can understand is Self, the World, and the relation between the two.

What I am concerned with is the Subjective Perspective of the Individual. That this is the essence of 'being God'. For example, a sheep's Subjective Perspective is passive, conforming, and dull, generally speaking. While a Satanic Subjective Perspective is as Ayn Rand's Individualism. The Subjective Perspective is forward, progressive, becoming, and powerful. It Impresses and Projects onto the Objective World.

Now one can look at that as a Theist or Atheist. A Theist would say having a powerful Subjective Perspective impresses upon the Universe to changing according to his Will, aka Magick. An Atheist would say having a powerful Subjective Perspective is what drives a person to succeed and accomplish pragmatically, thus changing the Objective World to his Will.

There is also the middle ground that LaVey covered. If I understood him correctly. He states that ritual is what has empowered humans to believe in Lies, then why not use rituals to empower us to believe in Truth? As in, a Ritual being the empowerment of Subjective Perspective and it's Impression on the World.

This is actually a very new understand for me. I'm still contemplating and have been all evening. To me, it seems like the middle ground between "magick/occult" and Realism.
_________________________
"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
-Simone De Beauvoir




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#33093 - 12/20/09 10:20 PM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: Natalia666]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I will adopt the paradigm of an absolute subject centred discourse in order to think these issues through with you.

If I claim the status of Godhood than, in my view, I am an absolute subject and I am free to intend my world as I wish to.

In this sense my claims about the world are “objectively valid”, from my point of view, because I have awarded myself Godhood.

The problem of solipsism, which you mentioned, does become a definite issue.

Dr. LaVey does mention that solipsism should be avoided and there are some very good reasons for this.

One of the main reason so it seems to me – because we are necessarily involved with other beings, who may also be interpreting themselves as Gods.

In this sense there may be competing truth claims because all the other gods are doing the same thing I am.

I can only confirm the validity of my claims a priori or necessary and universal through some sort of truth gaining method, which all can agree to.

We Gods, may be able to make all sorts of claims about the objectivity of ourselves and the world, but in a world where we are compelled to make choices about survival and defence within the context of a society, it may be prudent to ground our knowledge in a truth which we all hold more or less dear.

If we wish to magically succeed than it would seem right to do two things:

• Find out what the social conventions are and use them for our own rational self interest, through ritual or through lesser magic.
• State that our subjectivity is objectivity to the world or a group and then force a consensus in some way.

I hope this helps.

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#33102 - 12/21/09 02:19 AM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: Natalia666]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3109
 Originally Posted By: Natalia666
I meant that as in, my Subjective perspective has not been very forceful or stern. It has went from one perspective to another, one philosophy to another, one belief to another.


If your views have changed, then to me it is an indication you are still searching and that your subjective perspective is forcefull enough. There is a certain fluidity, what you came to write is an indication of the will to personal evolution. Something which should be cheered about. It is only when your views stop changing that it becomes a bad thing.

What you came to describe is a way to learn. An effective one that is.

 Quote:
If "magick" is conforming the Objective to the Subjective, then it would require a steadfast and impacting Subjective perspective. Like a stern hand molding Reality to one's Will.

As far as I know, there is no such thing as "magic", 'magik' or 'magick'. These words indicate a certain degree of self-delusion. But I assume you meant with magick the "power to manipulate or alter a person or multiple persons view or actions to suit you". Let me point out that using charisma and other psychological tricks are a good enough to "mold reality". You don't even have to make sense if you are good at it.
Let religion be the best example...
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#33119 - 12/21/09 04:33 PM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: Natalia666]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Yes, you know you have talent when you can step in and out of philosophical or theoretical frameworks at will, while being skeptical of all of them.

And, in my view, you definitely have talent when you can work within a particular framework, in order to manipulate others or the system, or the framework itself and advance your own cause.

That is a very powerful form of magic in my view.

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#33121 - 12/21/09 05:22 PM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: ]
Natalia666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Alabama
To me, that is what I call "chaos magick". I can view the world as a witch, or a magician, or an Atheist. I learn plenty from each. I prefer to stay mainly Satanist/Luciferian including ritual magick.

We are God of our Subjective Perspective. It can either fuel us or work against us.
_________________________
"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
-Simone De Beauvoir




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#33122 - 12/21/09 06:22 PM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: Natalia666]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I like the figures of Stanton Carlisle and Sir Basil Zaharoff.

I like the idea that you can create an illusion of reality in order to confuse, startle and draw the attention of the rubes and then get the booty.

Or, you work within the prevailing systems and take advantage of economic and political and cultural situations and prejudices in order to be the middle man, the one who sells to both sides, without the slightest concern for the ethical implications.

I love Charles Foster Kane, Michael Corleone and Dr. Phibes as well, but for different reasons.

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#33124 - 12/21/09 07:48 PM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: ]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I have to add another post here because this is another thing that fascinates me.

How in the hell did Cagliostro manage to convince people that he was over five thousand years old?

He must have started out with a deep understanding of the dominant belief systems of his time and operated within those systems.

He also must have believed that he could get away with it, at least for a while.

Cagliostro must have understood who his audience was and what they needed to hear, based on what his audiences belief system was.

He must have attracted and held attention. I don’t know if he employed Mortensen’s principles or not, but he employed something.

Just brilliant stuff!

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#33126 - 12/21/09 08:34 PM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: ]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Sorry, another one.

You know what I would love to do if I had the time - seriously study the bibliography to The Compleat Witch.

If you have read Dr. Aquino's book on the Church than you will no doubt know how highly regarded this bibliography is.

Apparently not only does this bibliography support Dr. LaVey's book, but is also a listing of many of the books on the shelves at 6114.

Dr. Aquino states, if I remember correctly, that a whole new conception of the human animal emerges through the careful study of these works. I believe he also stated that a black magician would do very well to study that bibliography. Essential reading.

Man, how many of those books are even in print now and that damn Mortensen book. Apparently you can get a copy for just $2,000.00.

Anyway I would have loved to have browsed the shelves at 6114, but no doubt Dr. LaVey would have cut my hands off fortouching those precious items!

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#33128 - 12/21/09 09:16 PM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: ]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Depends. He didn't want people randomly grabbing books off of the shelf, but if you were on the staff and had a little time to kill, he was known to let you read in the purple room while he was doing something else. No, you wouldn't get close to The Command To Look, he kept some of the more esoteric volumes out of view, but there were a lot of great books to keep you interested.


There's no telling where some of those great books are today.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#33129 - 12/21/09 10:03 PM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: Jake999]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I would certainly love to get my hands on some of those books Jake.

I just bet Dr. LaVey had one hell of a good film collection as well with all sorts of strange gems hidden away.

He seemed to me to be a great collector of things and I think that many of them would have been interesting and obscure.

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#33132 - 12/21/09 11:34 PM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: Jake999]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Actually I thought I might just take a look on Amazon and found some good news for interested collectors.

You can get copies of The Command to Look for about $300 - $400.00 USD.

That's not bad because the last time I looked (some time ago) the book was being sold for something like $1,000.00 to $2,000.00.

I am going to have to pull out the Compleat Witch bibliography again and carefully go through it and see what Amazon and other book sellers actually have and what the books cost.

Who knows, maybe many of these gems are still out there looking for a home.

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#33133 - 12/22/09 12:08 AM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: ]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
There is currently a bardback with dust jacket copy of The Compleat Witch on EBAY.

http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-COMPLEAT-WITCH-A...4#ht_9731wt_909

You could get lucky.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#33134 - 12/22/09 01:11 AM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: Jake999]
Natalia666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Alabama
pardon me, lol, but it looks so fanciful to be LaVey! :P
_________________________
"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
-Simone De Beauvoir




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#33135 - 12/22/09 01:23 AM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: Natalia666]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Judging a book by its cover is never a good idea. But it was colorful, which pretty much reflects the times.

And it won't tell you anything about using chicken hearts, blood or hair in curses.


Edited by Jake999 (12/22/09 01:25 AM)
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#33136 - 12/22/09 01:39 AM Re: Subjectivity is Truth [Re: Jake999]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Thanks for this info Jake.

I would like to own Dr. LaVey's works in hard back, so I will have a shot at winning the bid.

To Natalia,

The Compleat Witch is a work of genius, as far as I am concerned, from the opening words to the end of the bibliography.

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