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#36619 - 03/17/10 03:31 AM Re: The Legitimacy of Greater Magic [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Doomsage680 Offline
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Registered: 10/01/09
Posts: 111
Loc: NJ, USA
I always believed that LaVey made his statements about the force of Satan slightly vague so as to aid Satanists in their willful ignorance. But it is always Willful and ignorance. Only taint your perception to the point it aids you, going further defeats the purpose of embracing our material reality. Telepathy sounds nice, but don't allow yourself to believe that you are the source of truth. Truth is an objectively verifiable thing, not something only one person can know. If it isn't falsifiable it isn't a legitimate theory. If it isn't verifiable then you probably shouldn't be basing decisions on it. The Self is a biased observer of this kind of phenomenon. For example, if you do a ritual anytime soon where you would normally appeal to a single or set number of entities, try asking for more to make their presence known to you. If you work up the energy you may actually perceive more entities. Simply because you wanted to perceive them. Then ask yourself whether you are a worthy magician to earn that type of presence. I used to be steeped in this theistic stuff. The moment you stop believing the fog of spiritual pipe dreams clears out.
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"I who have nothing but the comfort of my sins"
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#36650 - 03/17/10 03:09 PM Re: The Legitimacy of Greater Magic [Re: Dimitri]
CanisMajor Offline
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Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Just for the sake of argument I like to use the word "drama" as a synonym for the term magic...

The real greater magic didn't took place behind closed curtains, it was there for all to see. Showbizz is just greater magic everyone enjoys and has the privilege to witness.


While I see your point about show business as greater magic;glamour,fascination,the principals of the command to look,virtual hypnotism (especially in commercials):these are staples of lesser magic.

Overlap? Possibly television and film as examples of "dual-use" magic?

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#36652 - 03/17/10 03:26 PM Re: The Legitimacy of Greater Magic [Re: CanisMajor]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3110
 Quote:
While I see your point about show business as greater magic;glamour,fascination,the principals of the command to look,virtual hypnotism (especially in commercials):these are staples of lesser magic.

I see Greater magic the same as Lesser magic.
The only point of difference would be that GM is used on a "greater audience"/more persons at once and being less personal (depending on which branch is being talked about in GM).
LM would be the same thing only used on much smaller scale and more on personal level.

Now GM, as I see it, can on it's turn be divided in two seperate boxes. First one being the extension of LM (i.e use of LM on larger scale) as being done in showbizz and media. The second one would be the most favoured by Theists and which is called "ritual magic".
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#36656 - 03/17/10 03:37 PM Re: The Legitimacy of Greater Magic [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3110
 Quote:
Greater Black Magic can be simplistically/mechanically be referred to as auto-manipulation, or the willed change of the self. Lesser Black Magic is changing your surroundings.

That's why I mentioned GM can be divided into two boxes, one being the "extension of LM" (describing the auto-manipulation on a larger scale), and the ritualistic box (describing manipulation or willed change of the self).

Both boxes put together would form the general "definition" idea most practitioners have.

Btw: GBM? Should I make the dancing nigger joke again?


Edited by Dimitri (03/17/10 03:42 PM)
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#36658 - 03/17/10 03:51 PM Re: The Legitimacy of Greater Magic [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3110
 Quote:
OK, I'm thinking you're on to something curious here. Are you talking about using GBM and LBM in conjunction during a ritualized performance of some sort?

Only stating that, IMO, the use of GM also implies the use of LM.
I'm actually saying that without knowing the workings of LM to a certain degree the use of GM is futile. It is in my view that LM is needed to perform GM.

Stating this brings up a problem (to me) in defining where LM "ends" and where talking about GM can start. I sorted it out by seeing GM as a sum of two seperate "boxes" being the extension of LM and Ritual Magic.

The extension of LM would imply that a person uses his ability of altering his surroundings on much larger scale. It implies that not only people in his direct envirronement are being influenced, but also people beyond that (let's say someone at the other end of the earth/country). An effect closely resembling showbizz.

Ritualistic magic is the second part of the general definition and is nothing more then the use of LM by means of altering one owns will or the willed change of the self.


Edited by Dimitri (03/17/10 03:52 PM)
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#36659 - 03/17/10 04:06 PM Re: The Legitimacy of Greater Magic [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
CanisMajor Offline
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Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
Greater Black Magic can be simplistically/mechanically be referred to as auto-manipulation, or the willed change of the self. Lesser Black Magic is changing your surroundings.


This was precisely the perspective I had in mind.

However,Dimitris' statement implies an important point:while GM and LM are not polar opposites per se,there are points of overlap between the two that suggest a 'sliding scale'.

It's something I hadn't previously given much thought.As a practical matter,I am much more proficient at LM.

I'm no stranger to greater magic,I just don't have as much need for "self-contrived ignorance" these days.

But when the time arises (as it surely will),well...



Edited by CanisMajor (03/17/10 04:20 PM)
Edit Reason: tentacles everywhere!
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#36782 - 03/19/10 10:05 PM Re: The Legitimacy of Greater Magic [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
BloodRaven Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 12
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Greater Magic is often referred to as a “psychodrama”. That is precisely what it is to me. By having an emotionally stimulating ritual one can help free themselves of unwanted negative emotions such as anger (in the case of a destruction ritual). Emotions if not properly released can lead negative behavior and inhibition.

I’m pretty sure all civilizations have/had some form of ritual and I think that says something about their effectiveness. Apparently, humans have a need for ritual. LaVey recognized rituals effectiveness when he synthesized Satanism.

Now on to the more speculative stuff….. LaVey also did often describe magic as something of a supernatural phenomenon, lots of examples towards the end of the “Compete Satanic Witch”. But you also have realize LaVey was a showman and Satanism is certainly a reflection of that. When he worked for the police department investigating calls on paranormal stuff there would often be times that when he gave a rational explanation to a phenomena, the callers would be disappointed. Another example of this is looking at all of these ghost hunter shows they have on now. Sometimes people are not interested in rational explanations they prefer sensationalism. Although many people myself included have no use for supernatural mumbo jumbo. This is why I think LaVey’s definition of Greater Magic is so open. “The change in situations or events in accordance with one’s will, which using normally accepted methods be unchangeable” (The Satanic Bible Pg 110). So for us scientifically inclined we can view the mechanisms behind GM as pure psychology while the more whimsically inclined can view it as a psychic laser beam or whatever… People just have different needs…

As a side note though, the ritual chamber is no place for intellectualizing the mechanisms behind GM. When one enters the ritual chamber they must focus their emotions in order for the ritual to be successful.

Lesser Magic is just using applied psychology to control others.

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#36963 - 03/23/10 10:32 PM Re: The Legitimacy of Greater Magic [Re: ]
exadust Offline
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Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 91
Loc: georgia
Since I don't believe in a possibility that demons exsist I believe that the results of greater magic are from the following.

The effects produce a psychodramatic effect which in turn creates confidence and maybe a boost in ego.

With a boost in confidence with reguards to the lust ritual I believe if in presence of the target the body may produce pheromones and may help with acheiving the desired effects.

Just remember what LaVey said in reguards to the balance factor you must know yourself and the object of your desire.

And as far as the destruction ritual if it really worked I'd probably be on the FBI's radar.
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#36971 - 03/24/10 02:36 AM Greater Black Magic [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2512
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
Greater Black Magic (GBM) is the causing of change to occur in the subjective universe in accordance with the will. This change in the subjective universe may cause a similar and proportionate change in the objective universe.

Examine this definition. A deliberate effort is made to alter one’s subjective frame of reference, so that a thing which used to be conceptualized one way is now conceptualized in another. A distasteful situation may be adjusted to produce a favorable outcome; a live enemy may be adjusted to be thwarted or nonexistent; a desire of any sort may be realized.

Magical manuals from the medieval grimoires to the Satanic Bible have discussed the use of imagery as an aid to this conceptualization. Perhaps the most stereotypical example of this is the sticking of pins into a wax effigy to cause harm. In Walt Disney’s Dumbo the little elephant was given a feather to hold with his trunk. He was told that it was a magic feather which would enable him to fly - and he did so by flapping his ears. When he eventually lost the feather, he started to fall, until he was told that the feather was really nothing more than an ordinary feather. As soon as he realized that he was the source of the “magic”, he flapped his ears again and regained altitude.

Photographs, wax images, talismans, music, fires, swords, statues, and indeed entire ritual chambers have no more intrinsic magic in them than Dumbo’s feather. Their effectiveness in magic, again like Dumbo’s feather, comes from their significance to the magician. If he grants them certain powers in his subjective universe - if he credits them with atmospheres, auras, curses, or blessings - they will assuredly have them. They will possess these qualities absolutely in the subjective universe.

Once this occurs, the phenomenon of the Magical Link between the subjective and objective universes will transfer a portion of the quality to the items’ objective mass. The potency and endurance of the transfer depends upon the skill and willpower of the consecrating magician, the scope of the working, the amount of distortion in the objective universe attempted, and a wide variety of physical and environmental factors which may range from sunspot activity to a sore toe which intrudes upon the magician’s concentration. Perception and activation of the imbued qualities by another magician will similarly depend upon the skill and willpower which he brings to bear upon such objects.

The implications of this principle are fascinating. Among other things it explains why sophisticated magical workings based on a variety of different gods or pantheons have worked. It makes no difference whether the gods be socially generated (like those of ancient Greece) or personally created (like those of H.P. Lovecraft). It makes no difference whether the Enochian Keys be phrased in honor of YHVH (as in John Dee’s diaries), in honor of Satan (as in the Satanic Bible), or in honor of Set (as in the Word of Set). Accusations of heresy, blasphemy, and/or inauthenticity - whether historically justified or not - are simply barking up the wrong tree from a magical standpoint.

Another implication of the operational principle of GBM is that there is a large amount of it “loose” in the objective universe by individuals who are generating it without calling it by that name and without even realizing what they are doing. Every time we have an “objective impression” of something possessing a quality which its physical characteristics do not substantiate, we are sampling the results of a GBM operation on the objective universe.

To take a few common examples: Snakes and rats are usually thought to be sneaky and evil, birds and cats beautiful; smog and sludge unnatural, trees and flowers natural. Many subjective universes agree upon and reinforce such interpretations, and in the objective universe it becomes increasingly difficult to identify the phenomenon in question without the subjectively-imposed “overlay”. [Such overlays may also be called “biases”, “prejudices”, or “points of perspective”.]

We are thus the victims of a world-wide GBM epidemic which has manifest itself as political ideologies, artistic æsthetics, advertising, social morality, etc. We cannot honestly say that we “live” in the objective universe, but rather in a crazy-quilt of subjective overlays on the objective universe. The first thing the magician must do is realize this; the second thing he must do is attempt to see and understand the actual objective universe through all the camouflage. The third thing he must do is attempt to change parts of it carefully and precisely through his own magical workings, both LBM and GBM.

The “unconscious” GBM of profane society works because of sheer mass, as a herd of buffalo will break through a fence that would easily stop any one of them. At the same time this profane effort is chaotic, unreliable, and ultimately random in its consequences.

Attempts to control such massive social forces have been made by many political and religious leaders throughout history. All have failed in whole or in part, even when the illusion of control could be created. The individual Black Magician cannot change the objective universe through raw force; his is only a single, isolate will. He does possess, however, an understanding of how GBM works and the consequent ability to narrow his use of it to a precise, directed focus. It is this focus that enables his workings to succeed.
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#36998 - 03/24/10 10:15 PM Re: Greater Black Magic [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Thank you for this excellent post Dr. Aquino.

I want to take some time to study the post before I add any sort of further response.

GM is a complex phenomenon.
Then take some time before you post *anything*, Matthew. No thread needs spacer posts like this. Either post something constructive or don't post.


Edited by MawhrinSkel (03/25/10 02:32 AM)

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#37041 - 03/26/10 03:55 AM Re: Greater Black Magic [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I think I have a better understanding of the content of your post Dr. Aquino after having taken some time to study it and think about it.

I realise from reflecting on my experiences that I subjectively frame what I sense in the world and as a result I am actively intending, meaning or conceptualising what I sense in some definite way and for a particular purpose. I adopt a position in regards to my world or specific aspects of my world. I recognise that I may or may not be able to articulate some of the reasons for adopting this position and what the consequences of this position may be.

I seem to be decorating my world. I am conceptually fleshing out and colouring the bare bones of an objective world - a bare objective skeleton of a world.

The central concern of Greater Magic would seem to me to be fourfold:

1. To identify how I currently mean my world; to discover the myriad ways by which I intend or mean my subjective world; and to determine why I have meant my world in this way and then to find out what this says about me.
2. To describe and clarify the will. To determine the objective sought and then to bring forth and elaborate the subjective frame which will be most beneficial in achieving the desired objective. Or, to determine the objective sought and to change the subjective frame so that the objective sought is already achieved or else its achievement is a forgone conclusion.
3. To employ appropriate tools and work within an appropriate site and to subjectively invest these tools and this site with power in order to discern, focus, clarify and magnify the will – to articulate and impose a subjective frame of reference.
4. I may be able to effect a change in the objective world as a result of my changing my subjective frame of reference. I can conceptually acquire or rather appropriate an object by meaning it and as result setting it within a conceptual universe of my own making and have it function there in a way which pleases me or advances my cause. I realise that my options may be limited by others.

This may sound silly, but I liken GM to ceramics. I don’t know if any of you have made a clay pot on a Potters wheel, but (at least for me) the process of the Greater Magical ritual can be likened to making a pot on a wheel.

You start with that shapeless and useless lump of clay and you are hunched over the wheel and you are working and watering that slowly spinning clay and you gently touch it here and you cup and manipulate it there and you are building something functional and something which will have a place in the world.

The clay is your will. You start with a block of useless soft matter and you build it and build it and work it until it is ready to go out into the world. And all those tools you employ and that chamber you use are specifically set aside for your work and must be at hand for the work to be made and to be made successfully.

And you must realise what sort of pot you can make, what you can do and get away with talent – wise. Will your audience accept your work as quality and genuine.

Dr. LaVey mentions that it is possible to effect individuals with Greater Magic when they sleep and that this is an ideal time to perform GM. The magician is attempting to impose his or her subjective framework on a recipient/s in order to determine how and what the recipient/s will mean or intend in more or less specific circumstances.

Dr. Aquino your reference to us being “the victims of a world-wide GBM epidemic which has manifest itself as political ideologies, artistic æsthetics, advertising, social morality, etc.” reminds me that the subjective framework which we use to negotiate our relationship with this bare bones objective world is in so many cases determined by power – the power to classify, exclude, examine, to organise and project and disperse. Awareness is an important key to magical success for sure.

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#37056 - 03/26/10 04:45 PM Re: Greater Black Magic [Re: ]
Room 101 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Scotland
Erg. I honestly can’t believe that SANE, RATIONAL persons are discussing their imaginary friends here.

Magic or “Magik” to the trendies, is simple psychology.

If you impart a “curse” on another, its effect on the second party is always greater if they know it has been applied.

I agree with Morgan and Maw when they say that YOU are the figure that is directly affected by any ceremony/ritual. It’s all about your grey matter, where YOU stand on an issue.

It’s a fucking sugar pill, do what makes you feel better, but in the end, you’re the only one that has sway over the world you live in.
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#37103 - 03/28/10 09:48 AM Re: The Legitimacy of Greater Magic [Re: ]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 860
Loc: Nashville
Just a couple of quick things:

“Magic is never totally scientifically explainable…”
T.S.B. P.110

“If only people were aware of the thoughts injected into their minds while they slept!”
T.S.B. P.123

I wonder if LaVey really believed this. I suspect that he sometimes said such things with fingers crossed, to make magic seem more otherworldly and entertaining to the masses. The Satanic Bible was and is, of course, a commercially produced book. However, it’s a shame he said such things because I think they go against what LaVeyan Satanism is about. As summed up well by Fabiano:

- Lesser magic is the art of manipulating others
- Greater magic is the art of auto-manipulation

Magic is real-world, scientifically explainable stuff. People who know or care nothing about Satanism do it all the time. I just wish LaVey had been more forthright about this.

This leads to the second thing. Magic is, first and foremost, about taking action. It’s great to talk about magic, to theorize and philosophize about it, but unless you’re out there getting things done it’s just a bunch of empty thoughts. I would have more respect for a Christian with a successful career than a self-proclaimed Black Magician living in his parents’ basement.

Talk is cheap. People need to produce tangible results or shut the hell up.
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#37105 - 03/28/10 11:37 AM Re: The Legitimacy of Greater Magic [Re: William Wright]
Arianwen Seren Offline
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Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 3
Loc: UK
"Magick when explained to the satisfaction of the masses becomes science"

Magick is a real phenomenon and as such is part of what is natural. However, as we do not understand fully how it works we label it as supernatural. If you experience what is termed magickal on a daily basis then it becomes normal rather than paranormal.

It is all down to experience, perception and understanding of any natural phenomenon. We have to look past the labelling to see what is actually there.

Magick IS.


Edited by Arianwen Seren (03/28/10 11:38 AM)
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Arianwen Seren
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#37110 - 03/28/10 07:09 PM Re: The Legitimacy of Greater Magic [Re: Arianwen Seren]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 860
Loc: Nashville
Arianwen - first, welcome to the forum.

If I didn't understand how something works, I wouldn't call it supernatural or paranormal. I'd simply say I don't understand it yet. It's a mistake, I think, to attribute what I don't understand to the supernatural or paranormal. I would say something is supernatural only if I saw what I considered compelling evidence of it. As of yet, I've seen nothing of the sort.
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