Page 1 of 2 12>
Topic Options
#33433 - 12/31/09 03:39 PM Nihilism and Satanism
Natalia666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Alabama
Recently I've been studying Nihilism. I've found the radical book "Nihilism" by Freydis to be a pretty cool read about the subject. I've found many similarities between it and Satanism. I am curious about others research and application of Nihilistic philosophy.

In short, one could say Nihilism dismisses unproven abstract constructs, deconstructs the mind/reality/society to the bare bones. Most of all, the act of destroying for the sake of creation. I find this incredibly powerful. We must first destroy to then create, whether it be self-progression or actual societal revolution. Most of all, our abstract constructs of society are only constructs we have dreamed up and have given power. Whether it be morality, god, gender, government, tradition, etc.

Also, as I have stated in another thread, the power of Subjectivity in this scheme. Our Subjectivity is a powerful tool in this Objective world. Even if our Subjectivity is abstract or unproven, such as "magick", it can still deem to be a powerful device. In the light of Nihilism, one could say there truly are no abstract rules other than those we create. Therefore, I would say, in the light of Nihilism, the abstracts of our Subjectivity should empower as to the fullest.

Any insight is appreciated.

-natalia


Edited by Natalia666 (12/31/09 03:42 PM)
_________________________
"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
-Simone De Beauvoir




Top
#33434 - 12/31/09 03:59 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Natalia666]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
I have yet to meet a nihilist that wasn't a political leftist and secular humanist at their core. Nihilism is something people like to write about because it seems avant garde to do so. I would argue that it's study is the realm of posturing disaffected artist would be Beatniks and wannabe Bohemians.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

Top
#33435 - 12/31/09 04:02 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Natalia666]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Nihilism conflicts with Satanism in that the Satanist creates his own meaning within his own bubble-universe while the Nihlist absolutely denies meaning whatsoever. Nihlism is an outside in philosophy, dictating to the follower what is true/what has meaning, while Satanism inverts that, defining what is true and what matters from the inside.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#33438 - 12/31/09 11:20 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Natalia666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Alabama
Does one not deconstruct the "meaning" of the Universe to then create one's own?

Nihilism does state that there is no meaning. But we can still create meaning, even if, when we know inside it is simply our own creation, an unproven abstract.

I can understand your feelings about Nihilists being over-exaggerated artists, lol. I guess it's the same as Nihilists might think Satanists are stupid rebel teens who burn churches!
_________________________
"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
-Simone De Beauvoir




Top
#33823 - 01/10/10 05:24 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Natalia666]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: Natalia666
Also, as I have stated in another thread, the power of Subjectivity in this scheme. Our Subjectivity is a powerful tool in this Objective world. Even if our Subjectivity is abstract or unproven, such as "magick", it can still deem to be a powerful device. In the light of Nihilism, one could say there truly are no abstract rules other than those we create. Therefore, I would say, in the light of Nihilism, the abstracts of our Subjectivity should empower as to the fullest.


The Objective is nihilistic, a vacuum, devoid of all purpose, all design, all meaning. Acknowledging this vacuum is empowering to the Subjective, but only if the Subjective sees the vacuum as something to fill, rather than a place to die. The nihilism of the Objective is real and all around us, but it's an enemy to fight, not a master to bow down to, and it has a glass jaw that shatters upon contact with our fist, and then our purposes become the Objective's purposes, our designs its designs, our meanings its meanings, because the very essence of the Subjective, the sum total of what it is, is to be the antithesis of nihilism.
_________________________
The baboon is the soul of man.



Top
#33829 - 01/10/10 11:10 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
Natalia666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Alabama
wow, that's a very cool summary. That has begun to happen slowly since I posted this thread about a week ago. Do not seek Meaning...it is not there. Create meaning!
_________________________
"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
-Simone De Beauvoir




Top
#33855 - 01/11/10 05:52 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



ďThe Objective is nihilistic, a vacuum, devoid of all purpose, all design, all meaning. Acknowledging this vacuum is empowering to the Subjective, but only if the Subjective sees the vacuum as something to fill, rather than a place to die. The nihilism of the Objective is real and all around us, but it's an enemy to fight, not a master to bow down to, and it has a glass jaw that shatters upon contact with our fist, and then our purposes become the Objective's purposes, our designs its designs, our meanings its meanings, because the very essence of the Subjective, the sum total of what it is, is to be the antithesis of nihilism.Ē


This is one of the most ridiculous pieces of poetry, I have yet come across.

The Baron is invited to step out in front of a speeding bus, or to jump off a high cliff or bridge to test his theories.

If one ignores reality and the sets of rules, which underpin it, than one will more than likely end up dead or in prison.

Top
#33860 - 01/11/10 09:04 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
The Baron is invited to step out in front of a speeding bus, or to jump off a high cliff or bridge to test his theories.


How would jumping off a high cliff test the "theory" that the Objective is without purpose, design, or meaning? Jumping off a high cliff would trigger the law of gravity. So what? Natural law is nothing more than predictability, a probability of one hundred percent. If I jump off a high cliff, the probability that I will drop is one hundred percent. So what? What purpose has the Objective demonstrated? What design? What meaning? None of these things can exist in the Objective. They can only exist in the Subjective. Purpose, design, and meaning are the essence of what the Subjective is and does. The Objective, by definition, is the antithesis of this.

Add one more principle; namely, that Subjectivity exists exclusively in living biological systems; and the clarifying power of Atheism becomes evident.

 Quote:
If one ignores reality and the sets of rules, which underpin it, than one will more than likely end up dead or in prison.


True. And utterly irrelevant to the topic under discussion.
_________________________
The baboon is the soul of man.



Top
#33866 - 01/11/10 10:14 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



A probability of 100% - sounds like objectivity to me.

How can you state that you are an Atheist? Upon what basis do you make this claim about the universe? How can you make any truth claims about the universe whatsoever if there is no objectivity?

You mention biological systems, do you agree that the human species is regulated, in some sense, by the theory of evolution? If so, how do make this claim?

Do you exist or not? Doesyour existence have any objective basis or not?

Top
#33868 - 01/11/10 10:29 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Natalia666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Alabama
Mathew, your points are mostly metaphysical.

Objectivity is reality without a Subjective lens. Of course, being human, we are all susceptible to subjectivity, some more than others.

Perhaps a topic here is Intelligent Design versus Atheism? Design implying an end goal or purpose to existence, or rather a higher power. While Atheism states the natural world is indifferent. It has no purpose, end goal, or intelligence behind it. Of course there is no DEFINITE answer whether it is Designed or not Designed, whether there is a higher purpose or not. Personally I find the evidence to be proving Atheism rather than Intelligent Design. Any belief of a design, purpose, end goal, or higher power is completely Subjective. This isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Baron is not saying there is no such thing as Objectivity, he is saying that it is without Design or Consciousness.

Nihilism is the absence of ANY meaning. This can be very powerful and life changing. It has been for me. But this gives me the freedom and power to learn to create my own Meaning for existence.

Is the human species regulated? No one knows what the next evolutionary step of humans will be. None of us will be alive when it happens I can assure you. Yes we are regulated. There have been instances of "magick" which I could consider. But we are regulated. If I cut myself, I will bleed. I do believe humans big time sell themselves short. If you can find me someone who can turn water to wine or shoot fireballs from his hands then I will say we are not regulated. Until then I will say our biological body has limits and is regulated by the processes of biology, etc.

Do I exist or not? I think therefore I am? This is still a controversial issue. Is our MIND simply the result of brain chemicals? Is the MIND the process of BRAIN? Or does our MIND exist non-locally? There is still no definite answer to this. Again I find the materialistic view holding more evidence. Even with such things as astral projection and lucid dreams.


Edited by Natalia666 (01/11/10 10:31 PM)
_________________________
"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
-Simone De Beauvoir




Top
#33870 - 01/11/10 10:37 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Natalia666]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



If this is the case than any claims we make about Atheism and intelligent design are fundamentally meaningless and cannot be validated.
Top
#33872 - 01/11/10 11:05 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Okay here is some more of my thinking point by point:

1. I am convinced there is a material world and universe independent of the human subject
2. I am convinced that this material world and universe, can be an object of knowledge for human beings, and that one can make universal and necessary claims in relation to it. That our truth claims can correspond to it.
3. I am convinced that this material world and universe is objective in some sense.
4. I am convinced that one cannot have ones cake and eat it as well. You cannot state that the objective has no meaning or purpose, and than claim that an objective world or universe is ontologically valid.
5. Purpose or design? Why does this have to be articulated in the tired old dichotomy of Atheism/theism yet again. What is the meaning or purpose of the theory of evolution? To help guarantee the continuation of the species. What is the purpose and meaning of the laws of physics? They are abstract laws which regulate the existence of the universe.
6. If you are going to appeal to Induction, then donít. 100% probability is objective in my view.

Wow, this place is having an effect on my thinking! I used to one of these nihilists at one point. Fist, I have to admit I was an art college guy and you are quite right about many of us.

Top
#33886 - 01/12/10 06:01 AM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
A probability of 100% - sounds like objectivity to me.


Well, first, I wasn't discussing objectivity, if what you mean by that is the attempt to eliminate as much subjectivity as possible from one's mental apparatus. I was discussing the Objective, and what I meant by that is all of reality that isn't the Subjective, the latter term referring to the entire domain of consciousness as experienced by anything anywhere. Matter and probabilities are the Objective. Perceptions, thoughts, emotions, desires, and intentions are the Subjective. These two domains are mutually exclusive realms of being; not realms of thought, but realms of being, with the second of the two having thoughts as part of its substance. Add the two domains together into one super-domain, and that super-domain will be all of reality, outside of which, nothing is.

 Quote:
How can you state that you are an atheist? Upon what basis do you make this claim about the universe?


Type One Atheists say, "There is no God and I can prove it."

Type Two Atheists say,"There is no solid empirical evidence for the existence of God, therefore I make no claim that God exists, and I reject any such claim if made by others."

Type One Atheists make a truth claim. Type Two Atheists do not; rather, they refrain from making a truth claim and reject the truth claims of others.

I am a Type Two Atheist.

 Quote:
How can you make any truth claims about the universe whatsoever if there is no objectivity?


I haven't said there is no objectivity, nor have I said there is no Objective. I have merely said that the Objective is without purpose, design, or meaning. Matter and probabilities exist. Matter and probabilities are without purpose, design, or meaning. This is true by definition, since the Objective and the Subjective are mutually exclusive, and the Subjective is the domain of purpose, design, and meaning.

 Quote:
You mention biological systems, do you agree that the human species is regulated, in some sense, by the theory of evolution? If so, how do make this claim?


Strictly speaking, theories don't regulate. But I know what you were getting at. I embrace the Darwinian view of living things, whereby mutation and natural selection (with sexual selection) drive the emergence of new attributes within species and ultimately the emergence of new species. Mutation and natural selection (with sexual selection) are processes that take place in the Objective. As such, they exist and have effect. But they are without purpose, design, or meaning, because their domain is the Objective, and that domain is characterized by the absence of purpose, design, or meaning.

 Quote:
Do you exist or not? Does your existence have any objective basis or not?


I exist. My atoms and biological processes are located in the Objective, and thus exist. My perceptions, thoughts, emotions, desires, and intentions are located in the Subjective, and thus exist. My atoms and biological processes are without purpose, design, or meaning. My perceptions, thoughts, emotions, desires, and intentions are the very fountainhead of purpose, design, and meaning.
_________________________
The baboon is the soul of man.



Top
#33887 - 01/12/10 06:28 AM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
Before reading this post by me, please read the one by me that is directly above it in this thread.

 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1

1. I am convinced there is a material world and universe independent of the human subject
2. I am convinced that this material world and universe, can be an object of knowledge for human beings, and that one can make universal and necessary claims in relation to it. That our truth claims can correspond to it.
3. I am convinced that this material world and universe is objective in some sense.


I agree with all of the above.

 Quote:

4. I am convinced that one cannot have ones cake and eat it as well. You cannot state that the objective has no meaning or purpose, and than claim that an objective world or universe is ontologically valid.


Why? What is the necessary link between meaning/purpose on the one hand and ontological validity on the other? But first - what do you mean by ontological validity?

 Quote:

5. Purpose or design? Why does this have to be articulated in the tired old dichotomy of Atheism/theism yet again. What is the meaning or purpose of the theory of evolution? To help guarantee the continuation of the species. What is the purpose and meaning of the laws of physics? They are abstract laws which regulate the existence of the universe.


You are confusing effect with meaning/purpose. The effect of mutation and natural selection (with sexual selection) is the emergence of attributes within species and ultimately the emergence of new species, as well as, very often, in fact most often, the extinction of species, or at least the death of individual non-viable mutants. The effect of the laws of physics, which are really nothing other than one hundred percent probabilities, is predictability in the myriad processes of the universe. These effects as described in this paragraph are demonstrable. To say that something has an effect isn't by any means the same as saying it has meaning/purpose.

Meaning/purpose only exist where there are perceptions, thoughts, emotions, desires, and intentions. For the first four billion years that it was circling our sun, the Earth was utterly devoid of meaning/purpose, and perhaps even a little longer than that, unless we postulate that bacteria take part in the Subjective somehow, which is a hypothesis I wish I could test, as my intuition tells me that wherever there is life, there is the Subjective, regardless how simple that life might be, and how simple, therefore, its partaking of the Subjective must be. But certainly, prior to the first bacterium or proto-bacterium, there was no Subjective on the Earth, and therefore no meaning/purpose. The first four billion years of Earth's existence was the Age of Nihilism.

 Quote:
6. If you are going to appeal to Induction, then donít. 100% probability is objective in my view.


I don't understand your point about appealing to Induction.

 Quote:
Wow, this place is having an effect on my thinking!


A good reason for posting here, perhaps, and reading the responses thereto.
_________________________
The baboon is the soul of man.



Top
#33896 - 01/12/10 12:03 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
Natalia666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Alabama
I believe many people misunderstand Objectivity has having no Meaning to extend to Life having no Meaning. This was a misunderstanding I suffered when I first became an Atheist.

The division of Objectivity and Subjectivity is a very important way of understanding the world. Of course, we can play the quantum theory and say the Objective if affected by our Subjective via "law of attraction" or some hooha. This only confuses matters. Non-Arisotelian thinking is great for an exercise in Mind and Belief, but not altogether practical.

The Subjective is outright vital for our existence. I have learned if you seek Meaning, you won't find anything. Meaning is Created. As a Satanist or Existentialist, it is up to me to nurture my Subjective and create meaning. A strong confident and positive Subjective will shape the Objective to your Will via your Actions, Decisions, etc. Saying the Objective has no Meaning, which is essentially Nihilism, also states that the Subjective has MUCH meaning.

There always must be a degree of honesty in this though. I completely admit my Meaning and Purpose is NOT objective, it is my Subjective. Even if a person believes in Spiritual or Religious things, if only they were honest and said...No it is NOT Objective, it is my Subjective! This makes ALL the difference.

One exercise, if you could erase our Subjectivity, as we were millions of years ago. Erase the Mind. Erase society. There is only Nature and it has no purpose. It simply does. Man is the creator of purpose. In symbolic words, the watch does not have to have a maker.
_________________________
"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
-Simone De Beauvoir




Top
Page 1 of 2 12>


Moderator:  TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Woland, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.028 seconds of which 0.001 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.