Page 2 of 2 <12
Topic Options
#33898 - 01/12/10 05:29 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Natalia666]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: Natalia666
The Subjective is outright vital for our existence. I have learned if you seek Meaning, you won't find anything. Meaning is Created. As a Satanist or Existentialist, it is up to me to nurture my Subjective and create meaning. A strong confident and positive Subjective will shape the Objective to your Will via your Actions, Decisions, etc. Saying the Objective has no Meaning, which is essentially Nihilism, also states that the Subjective has MUCH meaning.


I agree with every syllable of that. I especially like your reference to Existentialism. I am, in fact, an Existentialist, as well as an Atheist and a Satanist. The three are synergistic and so tightly meshed in my thought that teasing them apart without doing violence to at least one of them can at times be impossible.

No famous Existentialist (to my knowledge) ever made the leap beyond good and evil into happy amorality, but I have found that leap to be the most natural thing in the world, easy and graceful to undertake, in fact the path of least resistance. If, for sapients, existence precedes essence - Existentialism - and my essence is nobody's business but my own - Atheism - then why in the world would I want to burden my essence with phantasms? No, I will accept no burden but that of fulfilling my own wants, and being smart about it, and brave, and disciplined. Moses is doing a fine job of carrying his stone tablets on his back. I will leave him to it.

The nihilism of the Objective and the sublime anti-nihilism of the Subjective are contained within all the mental pathways of Atheism, and Existentialism, and Satanism, and represent the most fertile philosophical soil I have ever tilled.
_________________________
The baboon is the soul of man.



Top
#33899 - 01/12/10 06:06 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I think I get a clearer idea of this.

One the one hand there is a subject and on the other an object. They are of two distinct realms of being.

The objective is real and is characterised as matter and probability and has no meaning or purpose.

No intelligence or design underpins or orders it and sets it running and keeps it running.

The subjective is a meaning investing consciousness - possibly Cartesian or present in some other philosophical form, maybe Dasein.

Baron, we may be arguing about two different types, or aspects of Nihilism?

My previous assumption regarding your position: you are denying that knowledge of the objective, or truth is possible - an “extreme” ontological or epistemological nihilism?

Your actual position from what I am now reading: since the objective is only matter and probability, it is real and knowable. But since it is only matter and probability, than it cannot be meaningful or purposeful - that no intelligent design or creator can underpin it, generate it or keep it functioning.

The objective is not consciousness or the absolute idea etc. It is knowable, in so far, as it is an object for a subject.

I would agree with this so called “actual position,” which I stated above regarding intelligent design or of a creator.

Here’s what I do not understand – Darwin. Evolution is a meaningful and purposeful process. Genes themselves appear to be meaningful and purposive within the context of evolution. Genetic research appears to be justifying evolution and the purposive or meaningful character of genes.

How is this possible?

Top
#33901 - 01/12/10 07:08 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
I think I get a clearer idea of this.

One the one hand there is a subject and on the other an object. They are of two distinct realms of being.

The objective is real and is characterised as matter and probability and has no meaning or purpose.

No intelligence or design underpins or orders it and sets it running and keeps it running.

The subjective is a meaning investing consciousness - possibly Cartesian or present in some other philosophical form, maybe Dasein.


A good summary of my world view.

 Quote:

Baron, we may be arguing about two different types, or aspects of Nihilism?


To some extent, yes, although I think it's truer just to say that we were striving to communicate with one another, and hit some roadblocks early on, which we have now gotten past.

 Quote:

My previous assumption regarding your position: you are denying that knowledge of the objective, or truth is possible - an “extreme” ontological or epistemological nihilism?

Your actual position from what I am now reading: since the objective is only matter and probability, it is real and knowable. But since it is only matter and probability, than it cannot be meaningful or purposeful - that no intelligent design or creator can underpin it, generate it or keep it functioning.

The objective is not consciousness or the absolute idea etc. It is knowable, in so far, as it is an object for a subject.

I would agree with this so called “actual position,” which I stated above regarding intelligent design or of a creator.


Another good summary of my world view.

 Quote:

Here’s what I do not understand – Darwin. Evolution is a meaningful and purposeful process. Genes themselves appear to be meaningful and purposive within the context of evolution. Genetic research appears to be justifying evolution and the purposive or meaningful character of genes.

How is this possible?


To understand, we must differentiate between causality and purpose. Imagine this scenario. A shingle is loose on the roof of my condo. Strong winds blow, and the shingle detaches from the roof. The shingle is hurled through space, striking a bird's nest in a nearby tree. In the nest there were eggs, one of which gets knocked out of the nest, falling to the ground and breaking. What might have developed into a baby bird, is now just yolk on the grass. A hungry cat happens by and licks up the yolk, quite pleased with its good fortune.

Was there any purpose in any of that? There was causality, certainly. But the only purpose was at the very end, when the cat licked up the yolk. Prior to that event, everything else was the actions of inanimate objects. Yet from the cat's perspective, the chain of causality was quite fortuitous! If the cat were sapient and imaginative, it might fantasize that the cat goddess Bast had sent the yolk in answer to the cat's complaints of hunger. The cat would thus be seeing purpose and meaning in what had actually been purposeless and meaningless.

And what of the mother bird? From her perspective, the chain of causality was disastrous! An egg that might eventually have hatched into a baby bird was now lost to the mother bird forever, the shards of the broken shell scattered in the grass, the yolk being digested in the cat's stomach. If the mother bird were sapient and imaginative, it might imagine that the bird god Horus had punished the mother bird for her sins by killing her baby. The mother bird would thus be seeing purpose and meaning in what had actually been purposeless and meaningless.

Causality doesn't imply purpose. Nor does good fortune, nor bad fortune.

The fact that our eyes process light is good fortune and the result of a long chain of causality reaching back millions of years. The causality is real and the good fortune is real, but neither implies purpose. Being sapient and imaginative, we have a strong tendency to tell ourselves stories to explain our good fortune and our bad fortune. These stories always involve purpose and meaning and often design. We want these stories to be true because we want the Objective to have purpose, design, and meaning. But only the Subjective has those things, and only living creatures partake in the Subjective. DNA and RNA are not, in themselves, alive. DNA and RNA do amazing things, but they don't partake of the Subjective, therefore the amazing things they do are done without purpose, design, or meaning, despite the fact that these amazing things are very good fortune, usually, for some living thing.
_________________________
The baboon is the soul of man.



Top
#33902 - 01/12/10 07:41 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
Natalia666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Alabama
The Objective does not have a Meaning, it simply is. The Subjective is what gives Meaning. The Subjective is what has even created the very concept of Meaning!

In our society, a clock has a meaning, we created it to tell time. So naturally we project this "must have a Meaning" onto the Objective World, stating there must be purpose behind evolution or whatever. It does not HAVE to have Meaning. The Earth revolves around the Sun. There is no Meaning or Purpose for this. It is simply the results of what is. Now to us, Subjectively, its Meaning can be anywhere from giving us light, vitamin D, or a Sun God to worship!

There are a few different 'aspects' of Nihilism. Many people misunderstand it. Passive, or Existential Nihilism, is when one deconstructs our societal constructs, such as deconstructing religion, philosophy, ethics, tradition, etc. We will find that ALL this has been born from Man's Mind. Even the "Meaning for our Existence" is deconstructed. Kierkegaard called it "leveling". When all the societal constructs and beliefs are demolished. We realize there is only the Objective, that which IS. A person sees that nothingness is at the essence of every construct. This may even result in severe depression. One says...everything is Meaningless, then why even live?

Then there is Active Nihilism and even Political Nihilism. Active Nihilism states...yes all these constructs are Meaningless, therefore I must create Meaning! This gives me full freedom!

Political Nihilism is the destruction or extreme skepticism of religion, state, mass media, and other societal memetic viruses. Destroy the government and start new!

If we can imagine a Painting, it is all the Meanings man has created about the world and life. Then we throw turpentine on it and watch the colors run off revealing the Nothingness underneath. Oh what sad tragedy! But then we realize, we have the paintbrush and paints to begin anew, painting your own Meaning. Pardon my cheesy symbolism. I still find it accurate, lol
_________________________
"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
-Simone De Beauvoir




Top
#33903 - 01/12/10 08:06 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I must be honest and state that I cannot refute your views Baron and must accept them at this stage, because I have no evidence to provide, which would somehow justify any other position.

Baron, I was beginning to think I was finding a way out of Nihilism, but I am not so sure now.

Possibly I wasn't actually finding a way out at all.

I must state that my views over the years have been influenced by Feuerbach, Marx and the best thinkers of that tradition, Nietzsche, Freud, Russell, Heidegger, Foucault, and Derrida.

An eclectic bunch for sure.

With such bedfellows one may have a variety of political positions being thrown at one and a great deal of infighting, but the status of god or intelligent design seems to me to be fairly clear.

Sigh, I seem to be stuck with these strange old bedfellows, but then again, why not.

It would seem from studying Satanic philosophy that the nihilism you have argued for would be one of the so called foundations.

Anyway, Baron do not jump off a cliff or step in front of speeding bus.

Have a glass of cold beer and some all meats pizza instead.

Please report back on any subjective sensations you have in relation to it, but don't crow too loudly because I will be terribly jealous. I really want beer and pizza right now.

Top
#33910 - 01/12/10 11:41 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
I must be honest and state that I cannot refute your views Baron and must accept them at this stage, because I have no evidence to provide, which would somehow justify any other position.


Empiricism is first step of a journey that leads through materialism to Atheism and then to Satanism. But there's a side journey which, if taken, strengthens the self against nihilism. Existentialism is that side journey.

 Quote:

Baron, I was beginning to think I was finding a way out of Nihilism, but I am not so sure now.

Possibly I wasn't actually finding a way out at all.


There are three ways to overcome or sidestep nihilism. The sub-human way is to be so dim witted as to never see the possibility of nihilism in the first place. The delusional way is to narcotize oneself with fantasies of cosmic heroism. The fully awake way is Existentialism.

 Quote:

I must state that my views over the years have been influenced by Feuerbach, Marx and the best thinkers of that tradition, Nietzsche, Freud, Russell, Heidegger, Foucault, and Derrida.


Atheists all.

 Quote:

With such bedfellows one may have a variety of political positions being thrown at one and a great deal of infighting, but the status of god or intelligent design seems to me to be fairly clear.


None of the men you name would have argued for intelligent design.

 Quote:

It would seem from studying Satanic philosophy that the nihilism you have argued for would be one of the so called foundations.


Only in the Objective. Never in the Subjective.

Here's how Existentialism overcomes nihilism. It teaches that meaning isn't something you search for up in the sky, but rather, it is something you make with your hands and feet down here in the mud. Meaning isn't something that pours into you from outside yourself, but rather, it is something you pour out from within yourself. Meaning isn't something you were born with, but rather, it is something you give birth to. Meaning isn't submission to the will of some imaginary entity, but rather, it is the actualization of your own will. That is Existentialism, and as you can surely see, it is very compatible with the Left Hand Path.

_________________________
The baboon is the soul of man.



Top
#33911 - 01/12/10 11:50 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



How do you see the implications of this nihilism playing out when one considers it in terms of the so called social contract and of a life - world of human beings, who may have to more or less work together to provide for their common defence, or their common wealth?

What interests me: how individuals, who have granted themselves Godhood, as a logical result of their adoption of the Satanic philosophy, are, in some sense, able to compromise and accept the laws and norms of their society and engage with others.

One could argue that it is rational to follow the law, because to break the law may entail incarceration and a loss of personal freedom.

Or, possibly one could say that if we all follow the law, than I can expect protection under the law and therefore that is in my interest, so I will comply and follow it.

I am wondering how far one can go in applying the principles of The Book of Satan, and particularly the concepts of Lex Talionis, within the context of the types of societies we live in and the type of culturally constructed norms and laws we currently have?

I am assuming common sense and pragmatism would be the key here.

My own view – one must further ones interest within the parameters of what the culture has set up for itself. One can possibly stretch and push the boundaries of acceptability through the nine parts social respectability to one part outrage model.

The Satanic philosophy, in my view, is fundamentally a philosophy of the Epicurean and the responsible.

Greater magical ritual and lesser magical manipulation are essential tools I think.

Yes, all of those bedfellows are atheists!

Yes, for sure, I make my own meaning because I will not receive the law of the Gods, or the word from above.

Legitimacy underpinning action is generated by me, but within the context of what I can get away with, be responsible for and what is rational.

Top
#33912 - 01/13/10 01:20 AM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I think you, like many before you, are getting tripped up on the word 'god'. It's a really loaded word.

Being ones own god does not impart one with any abilities. Being ones own god is the recognition and realization, on a base level, that you and you alone are responsible for your fate. The recognition and further the embracing of the fact that you are, and always have been, the center of your own universe. In a sense, the creator of your own universe.

Of course none of this puts one at odds with society or reality by default. It is in fact the opposite that is true. It's a matter of realism vs idealism. Satanists deal in the 'what is' rather than what they might think 'should be'. The world is what it is. Sink or swim.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#33913 - 01/13/10 01:52 AM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Yes.

I understand the below to be true, but at times I am not always sure whether other members would agree with the conclusions I reach because of the way I articulate myself:

I understand that the world/universe is material in nature.

I understand that there is no deity or universal intelligence which initiates, regulates and sustains the action and reaction of the universe.

I am an I - theist.

I understand that Satan is a symbol, which I have adopted because that symbol represents me in many ways. It is a symbol which represents my independent and critical nature.

I understand that there is a philosophical tradition, which leads from empiricism, materialism, nihilism, existentialism, realism etc and finally to Satanism. I see myself as having followed a step by step process, possibly similar to The Baron's.

I know what it means to suffer from Sartre's nausea.

I understand that I intend and value and mean my own world and that my world gains its sense from me, and that I am the centre of my world.

I understand that I have to deal with reality because solipsism, self deceit, hypocrisy and stupidity are unacceptable to me.

I must face reality at all times and under all conditions or else I may become a victim, rather than a master of my own "fate."

The Book of Satan engages me and represents a reality for me.

Top
#33940 - 01/13/10 08:30 AM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
What interests me: how individuals, who have granted themselves Godhood, as a logical result of their adoption of the Satanic philosophy, are, in some sense, able to compromise and accept the laws and norms of their society and engage with others.


I dislike the "I am my own God" metaphor and don't use it. The metaphor is a way of saying that I am the center of my own reality, the sole source of any meaning, design, or purpose my life will ever have, and, if I choose to indulge in good and evil, then I am the sole arbiter of which is which; or else, if I do not choose to so indulge, then, by my will, good and evil are banished from my reality. I embrace completely every syllable of that. I merely dislike the metaphor itself, the imagery, the poetic dimension of it. The word "God" has too much baggage, too many absurd implications, such as omnipotence and omniscience, and the status of being the genesis of all matter and all probability. I don't choose to carry that baggage around in my writings. When I speak of God, I speak of something whose existence I dispute, period. I don't dispute the entity's existence on one hand and then claim metaphorically to be that entity on the other hand. That would be too cluttered for me, too tangled.

As for the Satanist being able to compromise with others or comply with laws in order to obtain the wanted or avoid the unwanted, there is no paradox in this, no inherent fallacy, no logical inconsistency. The Satanist is pragmatic, realistic, and cynical, all of which orient behavior in the direction of compromise and of compliance with law. If I get what I want and avoid what I don't want, then I have actualized my will, and fulfilled the promise of my Satanism.

 Quote:
I am wondering how far one can go in applying the principles of The Book of Satan, and particularly the concepts of Lex Talionis, within the context of the types of societies we live in and the type of culturally constructed norms and laws we currently have?

I am assuming common sense and pragmatism would be the key here.


Yes.

 Quote:

My own view – one must further ones interest within the parameters of what the culture has set up for itself.


Yes.

 Quote:

One can possibly stretch and push the boundaries of acceptability through the nine parts social respectability to one part outrage model.


That is new to me and sounds interesting. Please elaborate.

 Quote:

The Satanic philosophy, in my view, is fundamentally a philosophy of the Epicurean and the responsible.


Yes.

I need to get to work so I'll stop here.
_________________________
The baboon is the soul of man.



Top
#33962 - 01/13/10 05:47 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
I don't think you and I are at odds over any of this, but we're basically arguing linguistics. Call it what you like. We might as well call ourselves 'becoming'. When done right, this process feels like a dance floor as the music takes off, sexual climax, a really good glass of scotch, breaking your own record at the bench, a grilled cheese sandwich when you haven't eaten in a day or even the anticipation of meeting a lover.


I think you're talking about GBM. Correct me, please. I practice something similar to what I think you're talking about. I don't use autotheism but I use something similar: autodemonolatry. I'll leave that to your imagination.

But autodemonolatry is something I only do in GBM. I don't go there in regular conversation, not even with other Satanists. I don't see a reason to.

My GBM practice is an occasional thing. I do it when I want or need to point myself in a new direction. For example, I started training in karate and cardio kickboxing September 2009. That was very new to me in very broad ways. I needed a whole new psychological framework. I built that with GBM and very successfully. In many ways I'm a new self. Best thing I ever did.

If I started using my autodemonolatry language in my posts here on the forum, I would come across as the kind of dweeb you must surely get here from time to time, the sort who is obviously on a weird fantasy trip to Mordor or the nearest Deathstar. I suspect it's language like, "I am my own God," that draws in these madcap marvels like flies to honey. Yet I have no doubt that for people who have an affinity for it, such language is very effective in GBM, and I salute those people with a hearty "Hell yeah!"
_________________________
The baboon is the soul of man.



Top
#41223 - 08/01/10 03:51 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Natalia666]
SODOMIZER Offline
pledge


Registered: 07/04/10
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: Natalia666
In short, one could say Nihilism dismisses unproven abstract constructs, deconstructs the mind/reality/society to the bare bones.


Too bad Freydis (who is a coward) then turns that into the exact opposite, which is a callow fatalism/liberalism. The guy's an idiot.

In my view, nihilism is the removal of all presumption of inherent meaning. It's a gateway to making decisions based on forward logic.
_________________________
SC / O9A

Top
Page 2 of 2 <12


Moderator:  TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Woland, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.027 seconds of which 0.002 seconds were spent on 25 queries. Zlib compression disabled.