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#33433 - 12/31/09 03:39 PM Nihilism and Satanism
Natalia666 Offline
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Recently I've been studying Nihilism. I've found the radical book "Nihilism" by Freydis to be a pretty cool read about the subject. I've found many similarities between it and Satanism. I am curious about others research and application of Nihilistic philosophy.

In short, one could say Nihilism dismisses unproven abstract constructs, deconstructs the mind/reality/society to the bare bones. Most of all, the act of destroying for the sake of creation. I find this incredibly powerful. We must first destroy to then create, whether it be self-progression or actual societal revolution. Most of all, our abstract constructs of society are only constructs we have dreamed up and have given power. Whether it be morality, god, gender, government, tradition, etc.

Also, as I have stated in another thread, the power of Subjectivity in this scheme. Our Subjectivity is a powerful tool in this Objective world. Even if our Subjectivity is abstract or unproven, such as "magick", it can still deem to be a powerful device. In the light of Nihilism, one could say there truly are no abstract rules other than those we create. Therefore, I would say, in the light of Nihilism, the abstracts of our Subjectivity should empower as to the fullest.

Any insight is appreciated.

-natalia


Edited by Natalia666 (12/31/09 03:42 PM)
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#33434 - 12/31/09 03:59 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Natalia666]
Fist Moderator Offline
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I have yet to meet a nihilist that wasn't a political leftist and secular humanist at their core. Nihilism is something people like to write about because it seems avant garde to do so. I would argue that it's study is the realm of posturing disaffected artist would be Beatniks and wannabe Bohemians.
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#33435 - 12/31/09 04:02 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Natalia666]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Nihilism conflicts with Satanism in that the Satanist creates his own meaning within his own bubble-universe while the Nihlist absolutely denies meaning whatsoever. Nihlism is an outside in philosophy, dictating to the follower what is true/what has meaning, while Satanism inverts that, defining what is true and what matters from the inside.
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#33438 - 12/31/09 11:20 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Natalia666 Offline
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Does one not deconstruct the "meaning" of the Universe to then create one's own?

Nihilism does state that there is no meaning. But we can still create meaning, even if, when we know inside it is simply our own creation, an unproven abstract.

I can understand your feelings about Nihilists being over-exaggerated artists, lol. I guess it's the same as Nihilists might think Satanists are stupid rebel teens who burn churches!
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"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
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#33823 - 01/10/10 05:24 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Natalia666]
Baron dHolbach Offline
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Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: Natalia666
Also, as I have stated in another thread, the power of Subjectivity in this scheme. Our Subjectivity is a powerful tool in this Objective world. Even if our Subjectivity is abstract or unproven, such as "magick", it can still deem to be a powerful device. In the light of Nihilism, one could say there truly are no abstract rules other than those we create. Therefore, I would say, in the light of Nihilism, the abstracts of our Subjectivity should empower as to the fullest.


The Objective is nihilistic, a vacuum, devoid of all purpose, all design, all meaning. Acknowledging this vacuum is empowering to the Subjective, but only if the Subjective sees the vacuum as something to fill, rather than a place to die. The nihilism of the Objective is real and all around us, but it's an enemy to fight, not a master to bow down to, and it has a glass jaw that shatters upon contact with our fist, and then our purposes become the Objective's purposes, our designs its designs, our meanings its meanings, because the very essence of the Subjective, the sum total of what it is, is to be the antithesis of nihilism.
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#33829 - 01/10/10 11:10 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
Natalia666 Offline
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wow, that's a very cool summary. That has begun to happen slowly since I posted this thread about a week ago. Do not seek Meaning...it is not there. Create meaning!
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#33855 - 01/11/10 05:52 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



“The Objective is nihilistic, a vacuum, devoid of all purpose, all design, all meaning. Acknowledging this vacuum is empowering to the Subjective, but only if the Subjective sees the vacuum as something to fill, rather than a place to die. The nihilism of the Objective is real and all around us, but it's an enemy to fight, not a master to bow down to, and it has a glass jaw that shatters upon contact with our fist, and then our purposes become the Objective's purposes, our designs its designs, our meanings its meanings, because the very essence of the Subjective, the sum total of what it is, is to be the antithesis of nihilism.”


This is one of the most ridiculous pieces of poetry, I have yet come across.

The Baron is invited to step out in front of a speeding bus, or to jump off a high cliff or bridge to test his theories.

If one ignores reality and the sets of rules, which underpin it, than one will more than likely end up dead or in prison.

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#33860 - 01/11/10 09:04 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Baron dHolbach Offline
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Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
The Baron is invited to step out in front of a speeding bus, or to jump off a high cliff or bridge to test his theories.


How would jumping off a high cliff test the "theory" that the Objective is without purpose, design, or meaning? Jumping off a high cliff would trigger the law of gravity. So what? Natural law is nothing more than predictability, a probability of one hundred percent. If I jump off a high cliff, the probability that I will drop is one hundred percent. So what? What purpose has the Objective demonstrated? What design? What meaning? None of these things can exist in the Objective. They can only exist in the Subjective. Purpose, design, and meaning are the essence of what the Subjective is and does. The Objective, by definition, is the antithesis of this.

Add one more principle; namely, that Subjectivity exists exclusively in living biological systems; and the clarifying power of Atheism becomes evident.

 Quote:
If one ignores reality and the sets of rules, which underpin it, than one will more than likely end up dead or in prison.


True. And utterly irrelevant to the topic under discussion.
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#33866 - 01/11/10 10:14 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



A probability of 100% - sounds like objectivity to me.

How can you state that you are an Atheist? Upon what basis do you make this claim about the universe? How can you make any truth claims about the universe whatsoever if there is no objectivity?

You mention biological systems, do you agree that the human species is regulated, in some sense, by the theory of evolution? If so, how do make this claim?

Do you exist or not? Doesyour existence have any objective basis or not?

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#33868 - 01/11/10 10:29 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Natalia666 Offline
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Mathew, your points are mostly metaphysical.

Objectivity is reality without a Subjective lens. Of course, being human, we are all susceptible to subjectivity, some more than others.

Perhaps a topic here is Intelligent Design versus Atheism? Design implying an end goal or purpose to existence, or rather a higher power. While Atheism states the natural world is indifferent. It has no purpose, end goal, or intelligence behind it. Of course there is no DEFINITE answer whether it is Designed or not Designed, whether there is a higher purpose or not. Personally I find the evidence to be proving Atheism rather than Intelligent Design. Any belief of a design, purpose, end goal, or higher power is completely Subjective. This isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Baron is not saying there is no such thing as Objectivity, he is saying that it is without Design or Consciousness.

Nihilism is the absence of ANY meaning. This can be very powerful and life changing. It has been for me. But this gives me the freedom and power to learn to create my own Meaning for existence.

Is the human species regulated? No one knows what the next evolutionary step of humans will be. None of us will be alive when it happens I can assure you. Yes we are regulated. There have been instances of "magick" which I could consider. But we are regulated. If I cut myself, I will bleed. I do believe humans big time sell themselves short. If you can find me someone who can turn water to wine or shoot fireballs from his hands then I will say we are not regulated. Until then I will say our biological body has limits and is regulated by the processes of biology, etc.

Do I exist or not? I think therefore I am? This is still a controversial issue. Is our MIND simply the result of brain chemicals? Is the MIND the process of BRAIN? Or does our MIND exist non-locally? There is still no definite answer to this. Again I find the materialistic view holding more evidence. Even with such things as astral projection and lucid dreams.


Edited by Natalia666 (01/11/10 10:31 PM)
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#33870 - 01/11/10 10:37 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Natalia666]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



If this is the case than any claims we make about Atheism and intelligent design are fundamentally meaningless and cannot be validated.
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#33872 - 01/11/10 11:05 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Okay here is some more of my thinking point by point:

1. I am convinced there is a material world and universe independent of the human subject
2. I am convinced that this material world and universe, can be an object of knowledge for human beings, and that one can make universal and necessary claims in relation to it. That our truth claims can correspond to it.
3. I am convinced that this material world and universe is objective in some sense.
4. I am convinced that one cannot have ones cake and eat it as well. You cannot state that the objective has no meaning or purpose, and than claim that an objective world or universe is ontologically valid.
5. Purpose or design? Why does this have to be articulated in the tired old dichotomy of Atheism/theism yet again. What is the meaning or purpose of the theory of evolution? To help guarantee the continuation of the species. What is the purpose and meaning of the laws of physics? They are abstract laws which regulate the existence of the universe.
6. If you are going to appeal to Induction, then don’t. 100% probability is objective in my view.

Wow, this place is having an effect on my thinking! I used to one of these nihilists at one point. Fist, I have to admit I was an art college guy and you are quite right about many of us.

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#33886 - 01/12/10 06:01 AM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Baron dHolbach Offline
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Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
A probability of 100% - sounds like objectivity to me.


Well, first, I wasn't discussing objectivity, if what you mean by that is the attempt to eliminate as much subjectivity as possible from one's mental apparatus. I was discussing the Objective, and what I meant by that is all of reality that isn't the Subjective, the latter term referring to the entire domain of consciousness as experienced by anything anywhere. Matter and probabilities are the Objective. Perceptions, thoughts, emotions, desires, and intentions are the Subjective. These two domains are mutually exclusive realms of being; not realms of thought, but realms of being, with the second of the two having thoughts as part of its substance. Add the two domains together into one super-domain, and that super-domain will be all of reality, outside of which, nothing is.

 Quote:
How can you state that you are an atheist? Upon what basis do you make this claim about the universe?


Type One Atheists say, "There is no God and I can prove it."

Type Two Atheists say,"There is no solid empirical evidence for the existence of God, therefore I make no claim that God exists, and I reject any such claim if made by others."

Type One Atheists make a truth claim. Type Two Atheists do not; rather, they refrain from making a truth claim and reject the truth claims of others.

I am a Type Two Atheist.

 Quote:
How can you make any truth claims about the universe whatsoever if there is no objectivity?


I haven't said there is no objectivity, nor have I said there is no Objective. I have merely said that the Objective is without purpose, design, or meaning. Matter and probabilities exist. Matter and probabilities are without purpose, design, or meaning. This is true by definition, since the Objective and the Subjective are mutually exclusive, and the Subjective is the domain of purpose, design, and meaning.

 Quote:
You mention biological systems, do you agree that the human species is regulated, in some sense, by the theory of evolution? If so, how do make this claim?


Strictly speaking, theories don't regulate. But I know what you were getting at. I embrace the Darwinian view of living things, whereby mutation and natural selection (with sexual selection) drive the emergence of new attributes within species and ultimately the emergence of new species. Mutation and natural selection (with sexual selection) are processes that take place in the Objective. As such, they exist and have effect. But they are without purpose, design, or meaning, because their domain is the Objective, and that domain is characterized by the absence of purpose, design, or meaning.

 Quote:
Do you exist or not? Does your existence have any objective basis or not?


I exist. My atoms and biological processes are located in the Objective, and thus exist. My perceptions, thoughts, emotions, desires, and intentions are located in the Subjective, and thus exist. My atoms and biological processes are without purpose, design, or meaning. My perceptions, thoughts, emotions, desires, and intentions are the very fountainhead of purpose, design, and meaning.
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#33887 - 01/12/10 06:28 AM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Baron dHolbach Offline
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Posts: 162
Before reading this post by me, please read the one by me that is directly above it in this thread.

 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1

1. I am convinced there is a material world and universe independent of the human subject
2. I am convinced that this material world and universe, can be an object of knowledge for human beings, and that one can make universal and necessary claims in relation to it. That our truth claims can correspond to it.
3. I am convinced that this material world and universe is objective in some sense.


I agree with all of the above.

 Quote:

4. I am convinced that one cannot have ones cake and eat it as well. You cannot state that the objective has no meaning or purpose, and than claim that an objective world or universe is ontologically valid.


Why? What is the necessary link between meaning/purpose on the one hand and ontological validity on the other? But first - what do you mean by ontological validity?

 Quote:

5. Purpose or design? Why does this have to be articulated in the tired old dichotomy of Atheism/theism yet again. What is the meaning or purpose of the theory of evolution? To help guarantee the continuation of the species. What is the purpose and meaning of the laws of physics? They are abstract laws which regulate the existence of the universe.


You are confusing effect with meaning/purpose. The effect of mutation and natural selection (with sexual selection) is the emergence of attributes within species and ultimately the emergence of new species, as well as, very often, in fact most often, the extinction of species, or at least the death of individual non-viable mutants. The effect of the laws of physics, which are really nothing other than one hundred percent probabilities, is predictability in the myriad processes of the universe. These effects as described in this paragraph are demonstrable. To say that something has an effect isn't by any means the same as saying it has meaning/purpose.

Meaning/purpose only exist where there are perceptions, thoughts, emotions, desires, and intentions. For the first four billion years that it was circling our sun, the Earth was utterly devoid of meaning/purpose, and perhaps even a little longer than that, unless we postulate that bacteria take part in the Subjective somehow, which is a hypothesis I wish I could test, as my intuition tells me that wherever there is life, there is the Subjective, regardless how simple that life might be, and how simple, therefore, its partaking of the Subjective must be. But certainly, prior to the first bacterium or proto-bacterium, there was no Subjective on the Earth, and therefore no meaning/purpose. The first four billion years of Earth's existence was the Age of Nihilism.

 Quote:
6. If you are going to appeal to Induction, then don’t. 100% probability is objective in my view.


I don't understand your point about appealing to Induction.

 Quote:
Wow, this place is having an effect on my thinking!


A good reason for posting here, perhaps, and reading the responses thereto.
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#33896 - 01/12/10 12:03 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
Natalia666 Offline
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I believe many people misunderstand Objectivity has having no Meaning to extend to Life having no Meaning. This was a misunderstanding I suffered when I first became an Atheist.

The division of Objectivity and Subjectivity is a very important way of understanding the world. Of course, we can play the quantum theory and say the Objective if affected by our Subjective via "law of attraction" or some hooha. This only confuses matters. Non-Arisotelian thinking is great for an exercise in Mind and Belief, but not altogether practical.

The Subjective is outright vital for our existence. I have learned if you seek Meaning, you won't find anything. Meaning is Created. As a Satanist or Existentialist, it is up to me to nurture my Subjective and create meaning. A strong confident and positive Subjective will shape the Objective to your Will via your Actions, Decisions, etc. Saying the Objective has no Meaning, which is essentially Nihilism, also states that the Subjective has MUCH meaning.

There always must be a degree of honesty in this though. I completely admit my Meaning and Purpose is NOT objective, it is my Subjective. Even if a person believes in Spiritual or Religious things, if only they were honest and said...No it is NOT Objective, it is my Subjective! This makes ALL the difference.

One exercise, if you could erase our Subjectivity, as we were millions of years ago. Erase the Mind. Erase society. There is only Nature and it has no purpose. It simply does. Man is the creator of purpose. In symbolic words, the watch does not have to have a maker.
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"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
-Simone De Beauvoir




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#33898 - 01/12/10 05:29 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Natalia666]
Baron dHolbach Offline
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Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: Natalia666
The Subjective is outright vital for our existence. I have learned if you seek Meaning, you won't find anything. Meaning is Created. As a Satanist or Existentialist, it is up to me to nurture my Subjective and create meaning. A strong confident and positive Subjective will shape the Objective to your Will via your Actions, Decisions, etc. Saying the Objective has no Meaning, which is essentially Nihilism, also states that the Subjective has MUCH meaning.


I agree with every syllable of that. I especially like your reference to Existentialism. I am, in fact, an Existentialist, as well as an Atheist and a Satanist. The three are synergistic and so tightly meshed in my thought that teasing them apart without doing violence to at least one of them can at times be impossible.

No famous Existentialist (to my knowledge) ever made the leap beyond good and evil into happy amorality, but I have found that leap to be the most natural thing in the world, easy and graceful to undertake, in fact the path of least resistance. If, for sapients, existence precedes essence - Existentialism - and my essence is nobody's business but my own - Atheism - then why in the world would I want to burden my essence with phantasms? No, I will accept no burden but that of fulfilling my own wants, and being smart about it, and brave, and disciplined. Moses is doing a fine job of carrying his stone tablets on his back. I will leave him to it.

The nihilism of the Objective and the sublime anti-nihilism of the Subjective are contained within all the mental pathways of Atheism, and Existentialism, and Satanism, and represent the most fertile philosophical soil I have ever tilled.
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#33899 - 01/12/10 06:06 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I think I get a clearer idea of this.

One the one hand there is a subject and on the other an object. They are of two distinct realms of being.

The objective is real and is characterised as matter and probability and has no meaning or purpose.

No intelligence or design underpins or orders it and sets it running and keeps it running.

The subjective is a meaning investing consciousness - possibly Cartesian or present in some other philosophical form, maybe Dasein.

Baron, we may be arguing about two different types, or aspects of Nihilism?

My previous assumption regarding your position: you are denying that knowledge of the objective, or truth is possible - an “extreme” ontological or epistemological nihilism?

Your actual position from what I am now reading: since the objective is only matter and probability, it is real and knowable. But since it is only matter and probability, than it cannot be meaningful or purposeful - that no intelligent design or creator can underpin it, generate it or keep it functioning.

The objective is not consciousness or the absolute idea etc. It is knowable, in so far, as it is an object for a subject.

I would agree with this so called “actual position,” which I stated above regarding intelligent design or of a creator.

Here’s what I do not understand – Darwin. Evolution is a meaningful and purposeful process. Genes themselves appear to be meaningful and purposive within the context of evolution. Genetic research appears to be justifying evolution and the purposive or meaningful character of genes.

How is this possible?

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#33901 - 01/12/10 07:08 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Baron dHolbach Offline
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Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
I think I get a clearer idea of this.

One the one hand there is a subject and on the other an object. They are of two distinct realms of being.

The objective is real and is characterised as matter and probability and has no meaning or purpose.

No intelligence or design underpins or orders it and sets it running and keeps it running.

The subjective is a meaning investing consciousness - possibly Cartesian or present in some other philosophical form, maybe Dasein.


A good summary of my world view.

 Quote:

Baron, we may be arguing about two different types, or aspects of Nihilism?


To some extent, yes, although I think it's truer just to say that we were striving to communicate with one another, and hit some roadblocks early on, which we have now gotten past.

 Quote:

My previous assumption regarding your position: you are denying that knowledge of the objective, or truth is possible - an “extreme” ontological or epistemological nihilism?

Your actual position from what I am now reading: since the objective is only matter and probability, it is real and knowable. But since it is only matter and probability, than it cannot be meaningful or purposeful - that no intelligent design or creator can underpin it, generate it or keep it functioning.

The objective is not consciousness or the absolute idea etc. It is knowable, in so far, as it is an object for a subject.

I would agree with this so called “actual position,” which I stated above regarding intelligent design or of a creator.


Another good summary of my world view.

 Quote:

Here’s what I do not understand – Darwin. Evolution is a meaningful and purposeful process. Genes themselves appear to be meaningful and purposive within the context of evolution. Genetic research appears to be justifying evolution and the purposive or meaningful character of genes.

How is this possible?


To understand, we must differentiate between causality and purpose. Imagine this scenario. A shingle is loose on the roof of my condo. Strong winds blow, and the shingle detaches from the roof. The shingle is hurled through space, striking a bird's nest in a nearby tree. In the nest there were eggs, one of which gets knocked out of the nest, falling to the ground and breaking. What might have developed into a baby bird, is now just yolk on the grass. A hungry cat happens by and licks up the yolk, quite pleased with its good fortune.

Was there any purpose in any of that? There was causality, certainly. But the only purpose was at the very end, when the cat licked up the yolk. Prior to that event, everything else was the actions of inanimate objects. Yet from the cat's perspective, the chain of causality was quite fortuitous! If the cat were sapient and imaginative, it might fantasize that the cat goddess Bast had sent the yolk in answer to the cat's complaints of hunger. The cat would thus be seeing purpose and meaning in what had actually been purposeless and meaningless.

And what of the mother bird? From her perspective, the chain of causality was disastrous! An egg that might eventually have hatched into a baby bird was now lost to the mother bird forever, the shards of the broken shell scattered in the grass, the yolk being digested in the cat's stomach. If the mother bird were sapient and imaginative, it might imagine that the bird god Horus had punished the mother bird for her sins by killing her baby. The mother bird would thus be seeing purpose and meaning in what had actually been purposeless and meaningless.

Causality doesn't imply purpose. Nor does good fortune, nor bad fortune.

The fact that our eyes process light is good fortune and the result of a long chain of causality reaching back millions of years. The causality is real and the good fortune is real, but neither implies purpose. Being sapient and imaginative, we have a strong tendency to tell ourselves stories to explain our good fortune and our bad fortune. These stories always involve purpose and meaning and often design. We want these stories to be true because we want the Objective to have purpose, design, and meaning. But only the Subjective has those things, and only living creatures partake in the Subjective. DNA and RNA are not, in themselves, alive. DNA and RNA do amazing things, but they don't partake of the Subjective, therefore the amazing things they do are done without purpose, design, or meaning, despite the fact that these amazing things are very good fortune, usually, for some living thing.
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#33902 - 01/12/10 07:41 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
Natalia666 Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Alabama
The Objective does not have a Meaning, it simply is. The Subjective is what gives Meaning. The Subjective is what has even created the very concept of Meaning!

In our society, a clock has a meaning, we created it to tell time. So naturally we project this "must have a Meaning" onto the Objective World, stating there must be purpose behind evolution or whatever. It does not HAVE to have Meaning. The Earth revolves around the Sun. There is no Meaning or Purpose for this. It is simply the results of what is. Now to us, Subjectively, its Meaning can be anywhere from giving us light, vitamin D, or a Sun God to worship!

There are a few different 'aspects' of Nihilism. Many people misunderstand it. Passive, or Existential Nihilism, is when one deconstructs our societal constructs, such as deconstructing religion, philosophy, ethics, tradition, etc. We will find that ALL this has been born from Man's Mind. Even the "Meaning for our Existence" is deconstructed. Kierkegaard called it "leveling". When all the societal constructs and beliefs are demolished. We realize there is only the Objective, that which IS. A person sees that nothingness is at the essence of every construct. This may even result in severe depression. One says...everything is Meaningless, then why even live?

Then there is Active Nihilism and even Political Nihilism. Active Nihilism states...yes all these constructs are Meaningless, therefore I must create Meaning! This gives me full freedom!

Political Nihilism is the destruction or extreme skepticism of religion, state, mass media, and other societal memetic viruses. Destroy the government and start new!

If we can imagine a Painting, it is all the Meanings man has created about the world and life. Then we throw turpentine on it and watch the colors run off revealing the Nothingness underneath. Oh what sad tragedy! But then we realize, we have the paintbrush and paints to begin anew, painting your own Meaning. Pardon my cheesy symbolism. I still find it accurate, lol
_________________________
"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
-Simone De Beauvoir




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#33903 - 01/12/10 08:06 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I must be honest and state that I cannot refute your views Baron and must accept them at this stage, because I have no evidence to provide, which would somehow justify any other position.

Baron, I was beginning to think I was finding a way out of Nihilism, but I am not so sure now.

Possibly I wasn't actually finding a way out at all.

I must state that my views over the years have been influenced by Feuerbach, Marx and the best thinkers of that tradition, Nietzsche, Freud, Russell, Heidegger, Foucault, and Derrida.

An eclectic bunch for sure.

With such bedfellows one may have a variety of political positions being thrown at one and a great deal of infighting, but the status of god or intelligent design seems to me to be fairly clear.

Sigh, I seem to be stuck with these strange old bedfellows, but then again, why not.

It would seem from studying Satanic philosophy that the nihilism you have argued for would be one of the so called foundations.

Anyway, Baron do not jump off a cliff or step in front of speeding bus.

Have a glass of cold beer and some all meats pizza instead.

Please report back on any subjective sensations you have in relation to it, but don't crow too loudly because I will be terribly jealous. I really want beer and pizza right now.

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#33910 - 01/12/10 11:41 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Baron dHolbach Offline
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Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
I must be honest and state that I cannot refute your views Baron and must accept them at this stage, because I have no evidence to provide, which would somehow justify any other position.


Empiricism is first step of a journey that leads through materialism to Atheism and then to Satanism. But there's a side journey which, if taken, strengthens the self against nihilism. Existentialism is that side journey.

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Baron, I was beginning to think I was finding a way out of Nihilism, but I am not so sure now.

Possibly I wasn't actually finding a way out at all.


There are three ways to overcome or sidestep nihilism. The sub-human way is to be so dim witted as to never see the possibility of nihilism in the first place. The delusional way is to narcotize oneself with fantasies of cosmic heroism. The fully awake way is Existentialism.

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I must state that my views over the years have been influenced by Feuerbach, Marx and the best thinkers of that tradition, Nietzsche, Freud, Russell, Heidegger, Foucault, and Derrida.


Atheists all.

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With such bedfellows one may have a variety of political positions being thrown at one and a great deal of infighting, but the status of god or intelligent design seems to me to be fairly clear.


None of the men you name would have argued for intelligent design.

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It would seem from studying Satanic philosophy that the nihilism you have argued for would be one of the so called foundations.


Only in the Objective. Never in the Subjective.

Here's how Existentialism overcomes nihilism. It teaches that meaning isn't something you search for up in the sky, but rather, it is something you make with your hands and feet down here in the mud. Meaning isn't something that pours into you from outside yourself, but rather, it is something you pour out from within yourself. Meaning isn't something you were born with, but rather, it is something you give birth to. Meaning isn't submission to the will of some imaginary entity, but rather, it is the actualization of your own will. That is Existentialism, and as you can surely see, it is very compatible with the Left Hand Path.

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#33911 - 01/12/10 11:50 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Baron dHolbach]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



How do you see the implications of this nihilism playing out when one considers it in terms of the so called social contract and of a life - world of human beings, who may have to more or less work together to provide for their common defence, or their common wealth?

What interests me: how individuals, who have granted themselves Godhood, as a logical result of their adoption of the Satanic philosophy, are, in some sense, able to compromise and accept the laws and norms of their society and engage with others.

One could argue that it is rational to follow the law, because to break the law may entail incarceration and a loss of personal freedom.

Or, possibly one could say that if we all follow the law, than I can expect protection under the law and therefore that is in my interest, so I will comply and follow it.

I am wondering how far one can go in applying the principles of The Book of Satan, and particularly the concepts of Lex Talionis, within the context of the types of societies we live in and the type of culturally constructed norms and laws we currently have?

I am assuming common sense and pragmatism would be the key here.

My own view – one must further ones interest within the parameters of what the culture has set up for itself. One can possibly stretch and push the boundaries of acceptability through the nine parts social respectability to one part outrage model.

The Satanic philosophy, in my view, is fundamentally a philosophy of the Epicurean and the responsible.

Greater magical ritual and lesser magical manipulation are essential tools I think.

Yes, all of those bedfellows are atheists!

Yes, for sure, I make my own meaning because I will not receive the law of the Gods, or the word from above.

Legitimacy underpinning action is generated by me, but within the context of what I can get away with, be responsible for and what is rational.

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#33912 - 01/13/10 01:20 AM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3883
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I think you, like many before you, are getting tripped up on the word 'god'. It's a really loaded word.

Being ones own god does not impart one with any abilities. Being ones own god is the recognition and realization, on a base level, that you and you alone are responsible for your fate. The recognition and further the embracing of the fact that you are, and always have been, the center of your own universe. In a sense, the creator of your own universe.

Of course none of this puts one at odds with society or reality by default. It is in fact the opposite that is true. It's a matter of realism vs idealism. Satanists deal in the 'what is' rather than what they might think 'should be'. The world is what it is. Sink or swim.
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#33913 - 01/13/10 01:52 AM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Yes.

I understand the below to be true, but at times I am not always sure whether other members would agree with the conclusions I reach because of the way I articulate myself:

I understand that the world/universe is material in nature.

I understand that there is no deity or universal intelligence which initiates, regulates and sustains the action and reaction of the universe.

I am an I - theist.

I understand that Satan is a symbol, which I have adopted because that symbol represents me in many ways. It is a symbol which represents my independent and critical nature.

I understand that there is a philosophical tradition, which leads from empiricism, materialism, nihilism, existentialism, realism etc and finally to Satanism. I see myself as having followed a step by step process, possibly similar to The Baron's.

I know what it means to suffer from Sartre's nausea.

I understand that I intend and value and mean my own world and that my world gains its sense from me, and that I am the centre of my world.

I understand that I have to deal with reality because solipsism, self deceit, hypocrisy and stupidity are unacceptable to me.

I must face reality at all times and under all conditions or else I may become a victim, rather than a master of my own "fate."

The Book of Satan engages me and represents a reality for me.

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#33940 - 01/13/10 08:30 AM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: ]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
What interests me: how individuals, who have granted themselves Godhood, as a logical result of their adoption of the Satanic philosophy, are, in some sense, able to compromise and accept the laws and norms of their society and engage with others.


I dislike the "I am my own God" metaphor and don't use it. The metaphor is a way of saying that I am the center of my own reality, the sole source of any meaning, design, or purpose my life will ever have, and, if I choose to indulge in good and evil, then I am the sole arbiter of which is which; or else, if I do not choose to so indulge, then, by my will, good and evil are banished from my reality. I embrace completely every syllable of that. I merely dislike the metaphor itself, the imagery, the poetic dimension of it. The word "God" has too much baggage, too many absurd implications, such as omnipotence and omniscience, and the status of being the genesis of all matter and all probability. I don't choose to carry that baggage around in my writings. When I speak of God, I speak of something whose existence I dispute, period. I don't dispute the entity's existence on one hand and then claim metaphorically to be that entity on the other hand. That would be too cluttered for me, too tangled.

As for the Satanist being able to compromise with others or comply with laws in order to obtain the wanted or avoid the unwanted, there is no paradox in this, no inherent fallacy, no logical inconsistency. The Satanist is pragmatic, realistic, and cynical, all of which orient behavior in the direction of compromise and of compliance with law. If I get what I want and avoid what I don't want, then I have actualized my will, and fulfilled the promise of my Satanism.

 Quote:
I am wondering how far one can go in applying the principles of The Book of Satan, and particularly the concepts of Lex Talionis, within the context of the types of societies we live in and the type of culturally constructed norms and laws we currently have?

I am assuming common sense and pragmatism would be the key here.


Yes.

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My own view – one must further ones interest within the parameters of what the culture has set up for itself.


Yes.

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One can possibly stretch and push the boundaries of acceptability through the nine parts social respectability to one part outrage model.


That is new to me and sounds interesting. Please elaborate.

 Quote:

The Satanic philosophy, in my view, is fundamentally a philosophy of the Epicurean and the responsible.


Yes.

I need to get to work so I'll stop here.
_________________________
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#33962 - 01/13/10 05:47 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
I don't think you and I are at odds over any of this, but we're basically arguing linguistics. Call it what you like. We might as well call ourselves 'becoming'. When done right, this process feels like a dance floor as the music takes off, sexual climax, a really good glass of scotch, breaking your own record at the bench, a grilled cheese sandwich when you haven't eaten in a day or even the anticipation of meeting a lover.


I think you're talking about GBM. Correct me, please. I practice something similar to what I think you're talking about. I don't use autotheism but I use something similar: autodemonolatry. I'll leave that to your imagination.

But autodemonolatry is something I only do in GBM. I don't go there in regular conversation, not even with other Satanists. I don't see a reason to.

My GBM practice is an occasional thing. I do it when I want or need to point myself in a new direction. For example, I started training in karate and cardio kickboxing September 2009. That was very new to me in very broad ways. I needed a whole new psychological framework. I built that with GBM and very successfully. In many ways I'm a new self. Best thing I ever did.

If I started using my autodemonolatry language in my posts here on the forum, I would come across as the kind of dweeb you must surely get here from time to time, the sort who is obviously on a weird fantasy trip to Mordor or the nearest Deathstar. I suspect it's language like, "I am my own God," that draws in these madcap marvels like flies to honey. Yet I have no doubt that for people who have an affinity for it, such language is very effective in GBM, and I salute those people with a hearty "Hell yeah!"
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#41223 - 08/01/10 03:51 PM Re: Nihilism and Satanism [Re: Natalia666]
SODOMIZER Offline
pledge


Registered: 07/04/10
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: Natalia666
In short, one could say Nihilism dismisses unproven abstract constructs, deconstructs the mind/reality/society to the bare bones.


Too bad Freydis (who is a coward) then turns that into the exact opposite, which is a callow fatalism/liberalism. The guy's an idiot.

In my view, nihilism is the removal of all presumption of inherent meaning. It's a gateway to making decisions based on forward logic.
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