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#33442 - 01/01/10 11:32 AM The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidence
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Research by Rupert Sheldrake involving the mind extended beyond the brain. In the later Q&A session, he mentions things such as the Randy Prize and interaction with Richard Dawkins.
90 min...whether you find it intriguing and valid in research or pseudo-scientific...enjoy.

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#33469 - 01/02/10 08:49 AM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidence [Re: Born]
Dimitri Offline
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Haven't really seen the entire movie since 90 minutes is a bit too long to watch for me.
I'll give my opinion about it based on the knowledge I already have concerning this topic.


First of all, while some will find it pseudo-scientific I can see a certain degree of "truth" in it. The use of objects outside the body to use as some kind of "memory" to activate certain zones within the main core (our brains) is a commonly used action in daily life.
From what I remember there was an example given about an Alzheimer patient using a notebook in which he described the things he saw during a visit at a museum, in the meantime another person with a "good" memory payed the same museum a visit without writing down the things he saw.
The notebook was then described as an object for the Alzheimer patient as some kind of extended memory, ie it helped him to remember and recreate the whole visit even tough his Alzheimer disease let him forget the visit.

While there are objections against this example, I ask the question: what about photographs? When someone lost their memory some start to regain it when an object is being shown he or she is daily confronted with or has strong emotions about.
Can this not been seen as an "extended mind"?


The subject is intriguing and more in-dept research might be done. After all, the brain is the most complex part of an organism.
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#33548 - 01/04/10 10:45 AM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidence [Re: Dimitri]
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I ask the question: what about photographs? When someone lost their memory some start to regain it when an object is being shown he or she is daily confronted with or has strong emotions about.
Can this not been seen as an "extended mind"?


I suppose in a way it can be seen as 'extended mind' but moreover would be an external trigger to a memory currently stored...even if the retrieval system is somewhat 'damaged'.

When still in College, I did job placement at a High School working with 'at risk' students. One student in particular, had a myriad of learning disabilities and was at a very low cognitive level. It was my job to try and teach this young man History, and ensure he understood what was being taught. Rather than following any prescribed text book teaching, we spent our time on field trips to museums and historical landmarks etc. Through out the year I kept giving him disposable cameras to recall each trip, and at the end of the year, his exam was a collected scrap book.

This kid got the best grades he had ever received during his time in school, thanks to using images to trigger memory, when 'multiple choice' would have sank the dear boy.

In what Sheldrake asserts here, this field theory is mostly applicable to an emotional bond, rather than simple proximity. 'A Mother always knows' etc.

One experiment conducted was quite interesting...a test in 'telephone telepathy'. A phone was placed down, three relatives of a participant (and the participant themselves) went through the exercise. The phone would ring and the subject had to guess 'who'. Sheldrake reports that results exceeded the percentage of random probability in guessing the caller. An average correct guess rate of around 76% when the percentage given on 'averages' was just over 50%.
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#33549 - 01/04/10 10:54 AM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidence [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
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 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
The moment any reasonably respected member of the scientific community starts bringing mystical 'fields' into his discourse, I think he's stretching. Why invent something new, something unfalsifiable, to suit his theories? It's too ad-hoc, too wishful thinking, too ulterior-motive. As soon as ol' Rupert gets his fields' existence taken as true, he can piggyback all kinds of nonsense on top of it.


Reminds me of the Scientology explosion and subsequent 'Dianetics' crap lol.

He's surely working hard to prove his theories but agreed, what would be to follow once this theory is proven. What's locked in the vault awaiting it's field theory usher...There always seems to be a motive other than 'this is driving me nuts, I've got to prove it's more than theory, finally feel satisfied and share what I've found'.
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#33552 - 01/04/10 01:07 PM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidence [Re: Born]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
I suppose in a way it can be seen as 'extended mind' but moreover would be an external trigger to a memory currently stored...even if the retrieval system is somewhat 'damaged'.

I think that was the basic idea of an "extended mind". At least as far as I can remember it was. Quite some time ago I read about it, might as well refresh the topic a bit as soon as I got the time for it.

Also needed to add on the previous response that research might be done, yet keeping up the BS filters is recommended. When it comes to such matters paranormal thinking is just around the corner, and the least I would like to hear is some asshole validating his claims with this incomplete finding.
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#33560 - 01/04/10 08:57 PM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidence [Re: Dimitri]
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 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
The moment any reasonably respected member of the scientific community starts bringing mystical 'fields' into his discourse, I think he's stretching.


Sheldrake gets more interesting if you turn the focus from the "morphic fields" issue to the evidence accumulated.

 Quote:
He's making shit up to suit his agenda...


He's engaging in theoretical biology -- a bit more than just making shit up. There was a good response to this by Aquino on the L-fields topic.

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#33572 - 01/05/10 05:02 AM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
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The common event, that is possibility too, of weaker brains resting on stronger, to interpret the environment, just by imitating or pretending to imitate what the strongest brain does. Thus by feeling secure and confident with his real or apparent presence, the dependant lowers his conscious defenses, and lets his mind glide in the others responses. That other person could had been so admired that a mental image, real or unreal (asserted or not), is recorded on the sub-conscious and projected as responding forward, when gliding in his presence apparent or not.
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#33578 - 01/05/10 08:24 AM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
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Just to be a bit of a Devil....

What would be the point of anyone wanting to come out of the closet and prove telepathy/psychic shit is possible?

What would it really get you?

Locked up in some government hospital, banned from casinos, lottery games, and forget about a "normal" life.

Would the million bucks be worth a lifetime of head aches?

Would it not be better to just keep it all hidden and on the down low?

Morgan
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#33581 - 01/05/10 04:46 PM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: Morgan]
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This thread is a hoot. I must admit I started watching this last night and by 20 minutes in realized most of the replies here were written by people who did not watch the movie. Either that or they were too blinded by disbelief to pay any attention. I will also be honest and admit I only made it about 40 minutes in but plan to watch the rest.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
What would be the point of anyone wanting to come out of the closet and prove telepathy/psychic shit is possible?

Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist but, if the Government knew any truths behind telepathy what makes anyone think it wouldn’t be classified for national security. Wouldn’t some high-ranking official come out with a study as to why it couldn’t work as misdirection?

I have seen the phenomena with dogs waiting when someone is on the way home and with looking at someone to have them turn to look directly into your eyes. Not to mention how easy it is at times to simply think someone up. So I must at least agree that there might be something to the phenomena, not necessarily the theory or research.

This mans agenda is no different than any others he wants fame and fortune, to be recognized as having realized something of substance, simply to be accepted by his peers. Sadly science that isn’t mainstream gets pushed to the side and anyone supporting it labeled a quack. While certain mainstream sciences are as guilty of creating fantastical unproven fields to support accepted theories.

How many brilliant ideas have been lost due to this?

~T~

Closing Thought: We like to complain and call others stupid for beliefs in fantastical things at times for daring to even think outside the box. Yet it is this and the ability to make what seems as fantasy an eventual reality, that truly makes us human. Without this we might still be in caves.
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#33595 - 01/06/10 04:48 PM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
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MawhrinSkel,

How far have you dug in Sheldrake's data?

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#36062 - 03/04/10 05:01 AM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
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Given the opportunity of telepathic phenomenon, human or un-human, we should try not to study it inductively but deductively; either we shouldn’t consider failed individual tests as disproves of the phenomenon, without considering the circumstances that affect telepathic communications.
In a controlled group of 100 individuals it should be recognized that there are a hundred transmitters and a hundred receivers, multiplied by the number of real complete messages emitted produced by the transmitters, consciously or unconsciously (Theoretically every phrase will be a complete message). In the controlled group, because of lack of understanding of the functions of the transmitters there will be hundreds of emissions sent by each individual, multiplied by a hundred, exceeding the capacity of interpretation of the receiver of distinguishing a message by tens of thousands. Mathematically this could cause message distortion. Adding to this we should consider the ecosystem circumstances, like: sound resonance (how sealed is the capsule), natural phenomenon’s (as wind), electromagnetic field, satellite interruptions, etc. We could call it: telepathic vector field.
In order to explain the given tails of telepathic communications among hundreds of individuals, is possible to apply rules like the ones that govern electromagnetic communications (thus as cell phones) in which each message is distinguished by an electromagnetic code, which identifies the transmitter. Such as an IP Address. Relaying on this theory, the sender’s identification process will depend on the receivers “browser efficiency” to distinguishing among different signals. We could call it concentration.
Now, being this possible, be careful with the Hackers.
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#37075 - 03/27/10 12:00 AM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
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Good science attempts to explain clearly observable phenomenon.

As pointed out in the lecture, current conventional science is unable to explain the movements of schools of fish or flocks of birds.

Anyone who has ever stalked game or people (or have been stalked) knows that other living things will look back directly at you if you stare at them. It is an observable phenomenon that can easily replicated by anyone. This is well know phenomenon, it has been well know for ages, yet current conventional science lacks any convincing explanation.

It must be remember that every well know scientific fact was once seen a fringe theory.

We well know gravity exists yet current conventional science is completely unable to explain phenomenon. Physicist routinely offer up a great many essentially baseless theories to account for observable phenomenon that they cannot explain. Because Physics is considered a serious hard science people accept make believe notions of super-strings, dark matter, gravitons and other completely made up constructs. Physicists are rarely asked to support their theories and millions of research dollars are spent on snipe chases that attempt to 'prove' their theoretical notions. As a physicist to actually explain how a photon 'knows' to act like a particle yet travel like a wave, and just how he came by this knowledge.

On the other hand, para-psychology is the red headed step child of science. Proof is demanded and theories are often dismissed out of hand. Yet, clearly we can observe all manner of para-psychological phenomenon that begs for theories.

On the old site I had several links that dealt with this subject. You can google around for the same sort of information but there are more than a few well thought out papers that deal with the concept of the human mind acting as a quantum computer (google it). In short, it is entirely possible that a great deal of our thought process, and by extension perceptions, occur at the quantum level and thus in non-linear space-time.

For our purposes I think this this concept is the most relevant. Among the most purely Atheistic left brain LeVayan types this causes great consternation. However, I believe that this concept of the quantum mind lies at the heart of Acausal Science (Aeonic Magic), Chaos Magic, the Aristotelian first principles of the TOS and other such systems that understand there is more going on around us than the simple causal Newtonian world view would have you believe.
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#37089 - 03/27/10 01:19 PM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: Fist]
Morgan Offline
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Okay, maybe this is just stupid naieve, but I thought Gravity was a by-product caused by the earth spinning on its axis (at high speeds) in a rotation/loop/pattern/circle around the sun, with the north and south magnetic poles being associated/contributing factors.

Fist is right with the stalker/back of the neck staring shit. Also sometimes works with phone calls...

"However, I believe that this concept of the quantum mind lies at the heart of Acausal Science (Aeonic Magic), Chaos Magic, the Aristotelian first principles of the TOS and other such systems that understand there is more going on around us than the simple causal Newtonian world view would have you believe."

Could be rabbit, could be........

M
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#37090 - 03/27/10 03:02 PM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: Morgan]
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Much is known about the effects of gravity (although there are a couple of unexplained phenomena) but very little is known about what actually causes these effects. Currently they are trying to look if they can affirm the theory about gravitons which is quite hard since they have to look for evidence in something which cannot be detected.

I watched this doc a week or so ago which was quite interesting even when the main presenter is somewhat an übergeek.

What On Earth Is Wrong With Gravity?

D.

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#37093 - 03/27/10 04:43 PM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: Diavolo]
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"Okay, maybe this is just stupid naieve, but I thought Gravity was a by-product caused by the earth spinning on its axis (at high speeds) in a rotation/loop/pattern/circle around the sun, with the north and south magnetic poles being associated/contributing factors."

What you're thinking of is centripetal and centrifugal force. They do contribute to how large forces interact, but actually its the force of gravity that actually influences the spin of the planet, not the other way around.

As I remember from my Astro-physics teacher, a very smart man, there are two forms of gravity. One is the concept of having a bowling ball on a mattress, the ball will weigh down the surrounding area and if you roll a marble near the ball, it will roll in its own direction at first, but turn towards the bowling ball till it's pulled towards it. This form of gravity is how large bodies of mass interact in space, but rather, in three dimensions, rather than the flat 2 dimensions observable on the mattress.
The other form of gravity is the simpler one where we fall straight down to the earth when we jump. Both are products of the same phenomenon, but because our gravity is far outweighed by the earth, ours is nearly non-existent.
Some believe gravity is a similar phenomenon to electro-magnetism, others believe it is its own force that all mass has. It's really hard to tell and no theory fully explains it yet, but we do know that gravity is an incredibly weak force. Consider this- if you jump off of a skyscraper, all the strength of gravity you build through the fall is repelled by the first layer of atoms in the grass's electro-magnetic repelling force. The force of the first layer of atoms is enough to bounce the force back into you and create the concussion, otherwise people jumping off buildings would smash through the ground and be embedded an equally deep depth as they fell. (Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, so the entire force of the fall must be equal to the force of electromagnetism in just a few inches of grass and dirt.) Atoms actually almost never touch, it's only the electro-magnetic forces that interact. Hard to grasp at first but pretty interesting. Gravity loses to electro-magnetism.
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#37205 - 04/01/10 02:52 AM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: Morgan]
Dimitri Offline
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The phenomena you describe here is actually the earths electromagnetic field. Also quite an important effect which made life possible on this planet.

There are different theories about gravitation.
One would be that in every atom a "graviton" is present.
This particle would make explaining that every object/person has a certain "gravitation field". As mentioned by doomsage this cannot be seen due to interaction by the larger field we currently are residing in. ( On a side note; in satellites and spacecentra this effect is still present. These objects are not floating in space but are merely in a continuous state of falling to the earth.) Gravitons would be current in infinite amounts and should have the ability to attract. The snare-theory prophecies the existence of gravitons.
But with the graviton there is a little catch: it's hypothetical.

Another theory would be that gravitation is an equal strong force as electromagnetism but whom is sipping trough another dimension, which results it is a much weaker force in the dimension/universe we are residing in.


Edited by Dimitri (04/01/10 02:52 AM)
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#37495 - 04/10/10 07:00 PM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
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I very briefly browsed Shaldrake's contribution to peer-reviewed research. This is much quicker than risk enduring 90 mins of bollocks. Initially, the stuff he does reminded me (sort of) of similar things that were tried in the seventies, such as Ganzfeld-experiments. These created a lot of hubbub, but in the end only true believers clung on to this branch of parapsychology.

The statistical significance Sheldrake quotes in one of his abstracts is impressive, and I think he immediately should do the following: i) take his results to Science, PNAS or Nature and submit them to the harshes peer-review possible, ii) say "Hello" to the Randi challenge, and iii) ask an independent group of scientists to reproduce his results.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. Since MawhrinSkel already has the best signature, I'll sign with the wisdom of Sagan, Truzzi and Laplace.
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#37498 - 04/10/10 07:50 PM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: Apion]
Wijesin Offline
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I followed the link provided by Maw above, and needed only to read the abstract to conclude that Sheldale is not much of a scientist, despite having a presence on pubmed. He did some Clever Hans-ing, and if he fooled himself, he certainly should not fool you. This effect has been known for donkey's years, so I won't parrot on about it. What will the next thing be? Staring down goats until they explode?

Whew. I'm rather happy that I did not spend 90 min watching that clip. Thanks, Maw.
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#37506 - 04/11/10 07:41 AM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: Wijesin]
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What exactly are you questioning? Most of this phenomenon is clearly observable. In particular, the phenomenon in people knowing when they are being watched.
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#37517 - 04/11/10 03:10 PM Re: The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidenc [Re: Fist]
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I question i) the repeatability of his results, ii) the experimental setup (give me double-blind, randomized trials, please, with proper negative controls and rigorous statistics), and iii) his ability to convince other experts in the field.

When it comes to quantum mechanics (QM) and the mind, I admit to having a soft spot for Prof. Roger Penrose and his take on QM and consciousness. Penrose is the mathematician and physicist behind the Penrose tiling problem, so his intellectual credentials are excellent to say the least. He's not much into telepathy, though.

Penrose position, briefly, is that consciousness cannot be reduced to an algorithm - no matter how large or complex. According to himself, his strongest argument is mathematical in nature: "If a human mathematician can solve a problem that cannot be solved by any algorithm, then human (and all other) consciousness(es) must arise from some other mechanism." He finds an example of this, tries to convince the reader, and goes on to postulate a QM mechanism for the mind.

What I like with Penrose is that while his claims are grand, he systematically and openly tries to answer criticism - from, for instance, Stephen Hawkings. He may be wrong, but deserves credit forwarding ambitious hypotheses. An experimental test of a central Penrose concept requires according to himself gigantic arrays of optics in orbit, so don't hold your breath.

Sheldale, on the other hand, makes grand claims that are more easily explained by well-documented effects, i.e., badly designed experiments.

I hope that this answers your question and give you an alternative to Sheldale. I recommend Shadows of The Mind by Penrose. It is a good popular work, but be prepared for formal mathematics, QM physics and much speculation.
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