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#34324 - 01/21/10 09:28 AM Re: Geraldo, it's all just symbolism. [Re: Jake999]
111Cal Offline
member


Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
Hey Jake

Ive read his ebooks over the years and have read his comments. HOWEVER from my recollection I dont recall his opinions on what he feels LaVey believed post 1975. Dr. Aquino is vocal in his statements that pre-75 LaVey believed in a literal entity of Satan, and that he shyed away from that... but my question is
does Dr. Aquino believe that Anton LaVey STILL believed in a literal Satan post-75? Or that he simply stopped talking about him?

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#34326 - 01/21/10 10:02 AM Re: Geraldo, it's all just symbolism. [Re: 111Cal]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Really? Does every thread have to turn into this redundant argument? Whatever happened to STAYING ON TOPIC?

"Yes he did."

"No he didn't."

"Yes he did."

"No he didn't."

"Yes, he, DID!"

"No, he, DIDN'T!"

It's enough to make a man's head spin. I fear it won't be long before every thread on this forum is turned into an argument about what LaVey did or didn't believe.

Admins, Mods, can something please done about this? At the very least have a specific thread created for this topic. Personally I think it is retarded idea for thread but this argument is not going away anytime soon and it is better for it to have its own thread than to have continue you in every other thread.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#34340 - 01/21/10 02:23 PM Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: 111Cal]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2521
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: 111Cal
I am very curious as to your opinion. Post-1975, do you believe that LaVey stopped believing in Satan as a literal entity all together??? Or simply stopped talking about it with others?

I mean that quite honestly. I do not question your integrity at all, but am curious if you feel that LaVey had a change of beliefs or simply decided to become quiet on the issue?

Anton's belief in and commitment to Satan prior to 1975 was adamant and uncompromising. I saw his handwritten Pact, which he kept in a strongbox and presumably burned per the Ninth Solstice Message. I saw and heard him myself in countless nonpublic ritual and nonritual situations.

Indeed I always shake my head that I even have to argue this point, considering that he dedicated his entire life and being to "the Man Downstairs"; but that's apparently the result of the Church;s aforementioned emphasis on "symbolism" when dealing with the public, and of course the 1975 crisis - after which of course he could not just go back and undo it.

 Originally Posted By: Heinrich Himmler 4/21/45
We have made serious mistakes. If I could have a fresh start, I would do many things differently now. But it is too late. We wanted greatness and security for Germany, and we are leaving behind us a pile of ruins, a fallen world ...

I'm not a mindreader, but Anton and I were long & close-enough friends - he called me his "Devil son" - that I came to know how he thought (on which he also commented more than once). I think that after 1975 the metaphysical dimension of Satan & Satanism became something that he just blanked out. He remained, of course, a brilliant and multitalented man with a voluptuously decadent lifestyle, so he had plenty "else" to preoccupy him, as his writings, music, and other post-75 expressions amply evidence.

It is no small irony to me that if there's one thing on which today's ASLV supporters and detractors back-slappingly agree, it's that he was a "religious phony" who did not really believe in the Devil. That comforts those who used to hate and fear him, because now they can dismiss him as just a carny snake-oil salesman and "junkyard intellectual". It also reassures and validates those who are titillated and inspired by his later lifestyle, but who are either too jaded or too afraid to face the Darkness themselves.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#34356 - 01/21/10 10:42 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
A BIG IN GENERAL REPLY!!!!!!

OH MY FUCKING EVIL GOD!!!!!!!!

Seriously, people.

Can't someone just believe in both things?
Why does everything need to be so cut and dry.
You evolve and choose to eat different food from when you were a child.
You also choose not to eat the same food every day.

I made a pact too. Over 30 fucking years ago!!!!!!!

Has my thinking evolved a bit, sure.
Do I use Satan as a figure in Ritual use, YES.
Do I believe in a literal Hell, NO.
Do I think Satan is going to walk through my door and have dinner with me, NO.
Do I use the archetype of Satan in my life, YES.
DO I have the mark of the Devil or Baphomet tatted on me, YES.

Satanism is about living and doing.

Sweating over the small details of what a dead man believed in his heart is stupid and pointless.
He's dead, and can't tell you the whys and reasons behind what he said and to whom he said it and what it all meant.

You take solice in your memories, your knowledge earned, and the things you experienced. You wrap up everything and make it a part of who you are.

Who you are, and what you know is unlike anyone anywhere at any point in time.
THUS.....
Suck it up, no one will ever agree upon the same thing.
Your TOTAL LIFE VIEW will NEVER BE anyone else's TOTAL LIFE VIEW.

The only thing you can agree upon is that you believe in the Truth of the basic words written in the Satanic Bible.

In the darkest corners of your heart, you know if you are a Satanist or not, and no one can take that from you.

Morgan

_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#34359 - 01/21/10 11:15 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: Morgan]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
I agree entirely, Morgan. Concerns about what Dr LaVey "really" believed will inevitably lead to futile arguments. People who have been inspired by someone no longer alive will want to mould that person's memory to fit their own interests and biases. This is not a case of conscious manipulation, rather the outcome of a desire to honour that person's memory and to fight their detractors.
The opinions and comments expressed on this thread remind me of the followers of "Crowleyanity" both within and without the OTO who will excuse their habit of cadging money, hospitality and so on by claiming that Crowley was an incorrigible user of others' resources and quoting, "The slaves shall serve".
I prefer to quote Gautama Buddha, "Be you lamps unto yourselves". The LHP is something every individual has to carve out and follow for themselves. Dr LaVey had his and its purpose was to serve as an example, not a map.
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#34380 - 01/22/10 07:12 AM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: felixgarnet]
111Cal Offline
member


Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
I would disagree 100%. What LaVey did or did not believe has a direct influence on Satanism today. And is a valid discussion.

JUST as we discuss years later other past figures such as Lincoln, Washington, Hitler, Christ, Buddha, Aristotle, Plato, and on and on and on.

It is true that we may never really know 100%, however since there are so many still here, who have firsthand knowledge, I think its a useful discusssion (even if we do go round-and-round-and-round at times)

As for believing both? I see Morgans point and I can respect her views... but the fact is that one either believes in a Theistic Satanism or doesnt.... There is either a literal Satan as an entity or not. Now of course, there can be varying degrees and interpretations to that... but its one of those things that either IS or ISNT... at least on some level.

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#34390 - 01/22/10 09:01 AM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: 111Cal]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
LaVey had a major effect when he was ALIVE.
Once he died, it became open to speculation and personal interpretation.

The idea of what LaVey thought and felt inside his own heart, is anyone's guess at this point. If two of his closest friends can not agree upon what he felt, then maybe that itself speaks volumns. The back and forth banter has gone beyond what is really necessary.

Aquino = LITERAL SATAN, and everything that comes with it.
Jake = FIGURATIVE SATAN and everything that come with it.
They stand apart on this issue and never the twain shall meet.

There is no need to take pot shots at who is more Satanic than the next guy. BECAUSE no one should care. As a Satanist, why should you give a fuck about what anyone says when you know the truth inside your own heart.

Cal, Please make up your mind, you contradict yourself.

"but the fact is that one either believes in a Theistic Satanism or doesnt.... There is either a literal Satan as an entity or not."

"Now of course, there can be varying degrees and interpretations to that... but its one of those things that either IS or ISNT... at least on some level."

So Cal, what are your own feelings?
Are you for a literal or figurative Satan in your life?

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#34436 - 01/23/10 04:11 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: Morgan]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3812
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I really don't get people who get a hard on for LaVey to the point of near deification of the man. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but the highest respect for what the man did, by giving a name to something that needed a name, but if he was secretly a jehovahs witness or a scientologist it wouldn't matter a WHIT as to what Satanism IS.

I laugh when I see yet another outward facing joker trying to turn Satanism inside out to fit their views because the idea of autodeification and all that comes with it is completely alien to them. If it's not the theists it's the post mortem sycophants that probably pray to LaVey for guidance when nobody is looking.

Such is life I suppose.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#34577 - 01/25/10 11:03 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: Morgan]
111Cal Offline
member


Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
LaVey had a major effect when he was ALIVE.
Once he died, it became open to speculation and personal interpretation.

The idea of what LaVey thought and felt inside his own heart, is anyone's guess at this point. If two of his closest friends can not agree upon what he felt, then maybe that itself speaks volumns. The back and forth banter has gone beyond what is really necessary.

Aquino = LITERAL SATAN, and everything that comes with it.
Jake = FIGURATIVE SATAN and everything that come with it.
They stand apart on this issue and never the twain shall meet.

There is no need to take pot shots at who is more Satanic than the next guy. BECAUSE no one should care. As a Satanist, why should you give a fuck about what anyone says when you know the truth inside your own heart.

Cal, Please make up your mind, you contradict yourself.

"but the fact is that one either believes in a Theistic Satanism or doesnt.... There is either a literal Satan as an entity or not."

"Now of course, there can be varying degrees and interpretations to that... but its one of those things that either IS or ISNT... at least on some level."

So Cal, what are your own feelings?
Are you for a literal or figurative Satan in your life?

Morgan


My feelings? Having been a CoS member for decades (although not ACTIVE since LaVey died) I have encountered a lot of people who did know LaVey early on and throughout his life. Personally, I am closer to the Aquino school of thought on the matter.... but not exactly. I am more for a literal "Satan" although not a single entity, but more of an omnipresent life force... that may or may not express itself as an entity at times. To be honest, most of my view points and most of my personality traits are more closely in tune with LaVey (post 75), but I also believe that LaVey most likely did, at some point believe in a literal Satan also... to what extent I am not certain.

I do not however,think that simply because we can never get a 100% positive answer that we should silence the debate. IN FACT I would say that there are those still alive who could shed some light on the subject. Yes Dr. Aquino and Jake are both vocal in their views and both knew the man well. But I think that if Diane LaVey/Hegarty and/or Karla LaVey were to take part in the discussion.... they could shine some light on the matter.

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#34580 - 01/26/10 12:14 AM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: 111Cal]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"But I think that if Diane LaVey/Hegarty and/or Karla LaVey were to take part in the discussion.... they could shine some light on the matter."

I honestly think that I have a better chance of winning the lottery than either of those two Ladies responding to this question.

Plus, in the end, I don't think it would change anything at all.

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#34594 - 01/26/10 07:37 AM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: Morgan]
111Cal Offline
member


Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
Actually, maybe not so far fetched.... we all know Karla LaVeys group has a link on this site, so its not so far fetched to think she might glance at it on occasion. AND I know that Stanton LaVey has viewed this site before... and since he and his grandmother Diane are very close, and since she has become a bit more active in the LaVey world again (she took part in an Anton LaVey art show last year and allowed her art of Antons to be included and has written several "letters to the editor" in recent years on the CoS and LaVey that have appeared in print.) So its possible that she has read it as well.

Still a longshot, but not impossible.... and since Diane was an uncredited co-author to the Satanic Bible and Rituals and very active in the initial set up, I think her views would hold some weight, were she to share them with us.

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#65844 - 04/01/12 04:06 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: 111Cal]
JayGraven Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 5
Loc: California
Well going back to the original topic..

According to a documentary I saw a number of years ago on roman history, one of their leaders who was known as Nero aparently did alot of "evil" things, and they used a system (which I forgot the name of or how to do it) to break down names into a number. so Nero's name broke down to 666. Alot of the citizens of rome referred to Nero as the antichrist, Through word of mouth since then 666 has always been attributed with the antichrist. Of corse I could be wrong becuase I havent spent a whole lot of time finding this out.

The number for Satan is Actually 616

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#65846 - 04/01/12 05:54 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: JayGraven]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
We recently took this matter into question over in the Illuminati thread. Long story short, we can't know for sure whether or not the number was 666 or 616, as there is debatable scholastic evidence for both.

The politically-charged message of John's Apocalypse gives more weight to the Nero theory, although both forms Nero and Neron Caesar can be connected to either 666 or 616, so the question is not resolved. One should take modern correspondences of this number with much greater skepticism, considering how easy it is to make any numeric connection imaginable with the alteration of a couple letters.

I suggest you read up on the history of the Roman Empire and the birth of ecclesiastical Christianity if you want to get the full context of it all.

One should also note that, biblically speaking, 666 not the number of Satan per se. 666 is the number of the beast from the earth, who derives his authority from the beast from the sea, who in turn is commanded by the red dragon, Satan. There is a connection but it is important to note the difference between these figures to avoid confusion and get a clearer idea of the text.


Edited by The Zebu (04/01/12 05:59 PM)
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#65847 - 04/01/12 08:14 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: The Zebu]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
The Book of Revelation also claims that 666 is "the number of a man." (c13, vs 16-17, KJV)

This intriguing assertion may have its basis in Jewish numerology, gematria or notariquon which have little relation to the "New Age" Kabbalah of today.

The three sixes can, like all numbers, be played with ad infinitum. They can be added to make 18, which can then be added to reduce to 9, the final number before the decimal system of counting ends and restarts itself. This suggests Wo/Man is a creature eternally created, destroyed and reborn as the indestructible Yahweh makes them in its image. This cycle image is not to be confused with the Buddhist Wheel of Life. Jewish people are expected to stay dead for the most part; the religion holds no belief in reincarnation, although Elijah and Moses may return as prophets - Jesus was asked if he were one of them.).

In the Jewish alphabet, 9 is attributed to the letter Teth, the hieroglyph of which is a serpent (!). 18 is the number of Tzaddi, a fish-hook - that which reaches in/down and drags out a creature from the darkness of water.

It's all very interesting stuff and one can play happily with this stuff for hours or years. To make any assertion that "666" is The Devil and a Very Naughty Boy coming to get us in the Last Days is silly, Christian theology mixed with "The Omen". \:\)


Edited by felixgarnet (04/01/12 08:17 PM)
Edit Reason: Tidying up.
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#65857 - 04/02/12 04:04 AM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: felixgarnet]
Frumious Offline
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Registered: 03/13/12
Posts: 102
Loc: New Jersey
By the way, Felix, as of 4:01 AM Eastrn Time on Monday, April 2nd, you have 663 posts. Three more and you better look up in the sky in case that Tzaddi fish-hook is coming down to snatch you heavenward from out the waters of darkness!
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