#34324 - 01/21/10 09:28 AM
Re: Geraldo, it's all just symbolism.
[Re: Jake999]
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111Cal
member
Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
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Hey Jake
Ive read his ebooks over the years and have read his comments. HOWEVER from my recollection I dont recall his opinions on what he feels LaVey believed post 1975. Dr. Aquino is vocal in his statements that pre-75 LaVey believed in a literal entity of Satan, and that he shyed away from that... but my question is
does Dr. Aquino believe that Anton LaVey STILL believed in a literal Satan post-75? Or that he simply stopped talking about him?
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#34340 - 01/21/10 02:23 PM
Who knows what evil lurks ..?
[Re: 111Cal]
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Michael A.Aquino
veteran member
Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
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I am very curious as to your opinion. Post-1975, do you believe that LaVey stopped believing in Satan as a literal entity all together??? Or simply stopped talking about it with others?
I mean that quite honestly. I do not question your integrity at all, but am curious if you feel that LaVey had a change of beliefs or simply decided to become quiet on the issue?
Anton's belief in and commitment to Satan prior to 1975 was adamant and uncompromising. I saw his handwritten Pact, which he kept in a strongbox and presumably burned per the Ninth Solstice Message. I saw and heard him myself in countless nonpublic ritual and nonritual situations.
Indeed I always shake my head that I even have to argue this point, considering that he dedicated his entire life and being to "the Man Downstairs"; but that's apparently the result of the Church;s aforementioned emphasis on "symbolism" when dealing with the public, and of course the 1975 crisis - after which of course he could not just go back and undo it.
We have made serious mistakes. If I could have a fresh start, I would do many things differently now. But it is too late. We wanted greatness and security for Germany, and we are leaving behind us a pile of ruins, a fallen world ...
I'm not a mindreader, but Anton and I were long & close-enough friends - he called me his "Devil son" - that I came to know how he thought (on which he also commented more than once). I think that after 1975 the metaphysical dimension of Satan & Satanism became something that he just blanked out. He remained, of course, a brilliant and multitalented man with a voluptuously decadent lifestyle, so he had plenty "else" to preoccupy him, as his writings, music, and other post-75 expressions amply evidence.
It is no small irony to me that if there's one thing on which today's ASLV supporters and detractors back-slappingly agree, it's that he was a "religious phony" who did not really believe in the Devil. That comforts those who used to hate and fear him, because now they can dismiss him as just a carny snake-oil salesman and "junkyard intellectual". It also reassures and validates those who are titillated and inspired by his later lifestyle, but who are either too jaded or too afraid to face the Darkness themselves.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino
[On Ignore: Dan_Dread, 6Satan6Archist6, Caladrius, MindFux]
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#34356 - 01/21/10 10:42 PM
Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..?
[Re: Michael A.Aquino]
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Morgan
senior member
Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2303
Loc: New York City
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A BIG IN GENERAL REPLY!!!!!!
OH MY FUCKING EVIL GOD!!!!!!!!
Seriously, people.
Can't someone just believe in both things?
Why does everything need to be so cut and dry.
You evolve and choose to eat different food from when you were a child.
You also choose not to eat the same food every day.
I made a pact too. Over 30 fucking years ago!!!!!!!
Has my thinking evolved a bit, sure.
Do I use Satan as a figure in Ritual use, YES.
Do I believe in a literal Hell, NO.
Do I think Satan is going to walk through my door and have dinner with me, NO.
Do I use the archetype of Satan in my life, YES.
DO I have the mark of the Devil or Baphomet tatted on me, YES.
Satanism is about living and doing.
Sweating over the small details of what a dead man believed in his heart is stupid and pointless.
He's dead, and can't tell you the whys and reasons behind what he said and to whom he said it and what it all meant.
You take solice in your memories, your knowledge earned, and the things you experienced. You wrap up everything and make it a part of who you are.
Who you are, and what you know is unlike anyone anywhere at any point in time.
THUS.....
Suck it up, no one will ever agree upon the same thing.
Your TOTAL LIFE VIEW will NEVER BE anyone else's TOTAL LIFE VIEW.
The only thing you can agree upon is that you believe in the Truth of the basic words written in the Satanic Bible.
In the darkest corners of your heart, you know if you are a Satanist or not, and no one can take that from you.
Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass.
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#34380 - 01/22/10 07:12 AM
Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..?
[Re: felixgarnet]
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111Cal
member
Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
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I would disagree 100%. What LaVey did or did not believe has a direct influence on Satanism today. And is a valid discussion.
JUST as we discuss years later other past figures such as Lincoln, Washington, Hitler, Christ, Buddha, Aristotle, Plato, and on and on and on.
It is true that we may never really know 100%, however since there are so many still here, who have firsthand knowledge, I think its a useful discusssion (even if we do go round-and-round-and-round at times)
As for believing both? I see Morgans point and I can respect her views... but the fact is that one either believes in a Theistic Satanism or doesnt.... There is either a literal Satan as an entity or not. Now of course, there can be varying degrees and interpretations to that... but its one of those things that either IS or ISNT... at least on some level.
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#34390 - 01/22/10 09:01 AM
Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..?
[Re: 111Cal]
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Morgan
senior member
Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2303
Loc: New York City
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LaVey had a major effect when he was ALIVE.
Once he died, it became open to speculation and personal interpretation.
The idea of what LaVey thought and felt inside his own heart, is anyone's guess at this point. If two of his closest friends can not agree upon what he felt, then maybe that itself speaks volumns. The back and forth banter has gone beyond what is really necessary.
Aquino = LITERAL SATAN, and everything that comes with it.
Jake = FIGURATIVE SATAN and everything that come with it.
They stand apart on this issue and never the twain shall meet.
There is no need to take pot shots at who is more Satanic than the next guy. BECAUSE no one should care. As a Satanist, why should you give a fuck about what anyone says when you know the truth inside your own heart.
Cal, Please make up your mind, you contradict yourself.
"but the fact is that one either believes in a Theistic Satanism or doesnt.... There is either a literal Satan as an entity or not."
"Now of course, there can be varying degrees and interpretations to that... but its one of those things that either IS or ISNT... at least on some level."
So Cal, what are your own feelings?
Are you for a literal or figurative Satan in your life?
Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass.
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#34577 - 01/25/10 11:03 PM
Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..?
[Re: Morgan]
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111Cal
member
Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
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LaVey had a major effect when he was ALIVE.
Once he died, it became open to speculation and personal interpretation.
The idea of what LaVey thought and felt inside his own heart, is anyone's guess at this point. If two of his closest friends can not agree upon what he felt, then maybe that itself speaks volumns. The back and forth banter has gone beyond what is really necessary.
Aquino = LITERAL SATAN, and everything that comes with it.
Jake = FIGURATIVE SATAN and everything that come with it.
They stand apart on this issue and never the twain shall meet.
There is no need to take pot shots at who is more Satanic than the next guy. BECAUSE no one should care. As a Satanist, why should you give a fuck about what anyone says when you know the truth inside your own heart.
Cal, Please make up your mind, you contradict yourself.
"but the fact is that one either believes in a Theistic Satanism or doesnt.... There is either a literal Satan as an entity or not."
"Now of course, there can be varying degrees and interpretations to that... but its one of those things that either IS or ISNT... at least on some level."
So Cal, what are your own feelings?
Are you for a literal or figurative Satan in your life?
Morgan
My feelings? Having been a CoS member for decades (although not ACTIVE since LaVey died) I have encountered a lot of people who did know LaVey early on and throughout his life. Personally, I am closer to the Aquino school of thought on the matter.... but not exactly. I am more for a literal "Satan" although not a single entity, but more of an omnipresent life force... that may or may not express itself as an entity at times. To be honest, most of my view points and most of my personality traits are more closely in tune with LaVey (post 75), but I also believe that LaVey most likely did, at some point believe in a literal Satan also... to what extent I am not certain.
I do not however,think that simply because we can never get a 100% positive answer that we should silence the debate. IN FACT I would say that there are those still alive who could shed some light on the subject. Yes Dr. Aquino and Jake are both vocal in their views and both knew the man well. But I think that if Diane LaVey/Hegarty and/or Karla LaVey were to take part in the discussion.... they could shine some light on the matter.
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#34594 - 01/26/10 07:37 AM
Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..?
[Re: Morgan]
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111Cal
member
Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
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Actually, maybe not so far fetched.... we all know Karla LaVeys group has a link on this site, so its not so far fetched to think she might glance at it on occasion. AND I know that Stanton LaVey has viewed this site before... and since he and his grandmother Diane are very close, and since she has become a bit more active in the LaVey world again (she took part in an Anton LaVey art show last year and allowed her art of Antons to be included and has written several "letters to the editor" in recent years on the CoS and LaVey that have appeared in print.) So its possible that she has read it as well.
Still a longshot, but not impossible.... and since Diane was an uncredited co-author to the Satanic Bible and Rituals and very active in the initial set up, I think her views would hold some weight, were she to share them with us.
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