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#33867 - 01/11/10 10:16 PM Concise meaning of 666?
Gldn Sprl Pth Offline
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Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 2
666 is such a famous number and since we are at the 600 club, I thought this would be a good place to ask what others know about the number and what it represents.

I am looking to get a more clear and concise understanding of it.

Since 666 is a trinity of 6, first I just think about 6.
So when I analyze 6, here are my thoughts:

First of all 6 is the archetype for structure, function, and order.

The number 6(six;sex) is the balance between the spirit Kether and the earthly Malkuth, thus placing it (Tiphareth; the sun) at the center of the "tree."

Sex(6) is the union of opposites, so the six-sided shape (hexagon) is composed of one upwards triangle(above;male;spirit) unionized by one downwards triangle(below;female;matter).

666 emphasizes and encompasses the above mentioned, but 666 is also the highest triangular rep-digit number. In other words 666 is the numerical symbol of the strongest archetypal power born of Kether: The power of the sun;light;mind.

Looking at it in the macrocosm, and then the microcosm:

Macrocosm: The Planets revolve(do "work") around the Sun(666), while the Sun being in the center doesn't do any physical work: it has the most energy and it is in charge (the "boss" of the planets).

Microcosm: The Workers(employees) revolve( do work) around the Boss(CEO, etc). The Boss being at the center of operations doesn't do any physical work: he has the most mind/light/sun energy and he is in charge of the workers (the planets that revolve around him).

So it is no wonder that 666 is also symbolic of the beast/adversary, because that is what a big shot wealthy boss is going to seem like to an emPLOYee (slave) who makes nothing in comparison.

But don't piss off your boss, or as Donald Trump would say "You're fired!" as if getting burned by the SUN (Boss).


Does anyone disagree with anything I said, have any questions, or have anything to add? Your thoughts please.
_________________________
How many corners do I have to turn,how many times do I have to learn,that AllTheLoveiHaveIsInMyMind.

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#33869 - 01/11/10 10:34 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: Gldn Sprl Pth]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Sometimes a number is just a number...

 Originally Posted By: Gldn Sprl Pth
First of all 6 is the archetype for structure, function, and order.


And you base this on what exactly? What if I were to say that 3 is the archetype for structure, function,and order?

Kether? Malkuth? Tiphareth? Gibberish?


*DISCLAIMER* I am providing this next link for entertainment purposes only:Vicarius Filii Dei

 Quote:
Vicarius Filii Dei (Latin: Vicar or Representative of the Son of God) is a phrase used in the forged medieval Donation of Constantine to refer to Saint Peter. It also features in the argument put forth by some Protestant groups who identify the phrase with the "number of the beast" (666) from the book of Revelation and subsequently the Pope with Antichrist, based on the counting method (gematria) of Roman numerals.
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#33874 - 01/11/10 11:27 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: Gldn Sprl Pth]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
Boy am I ever getting into the innermost secrets of the original Church of Satan in this Forum ... Well, I like what I've seen of the 600 Club.

So 666: First please throw the entire Hebrew Cabala in the trashcan where it has always belonged, as what Anton called "occult pornography". Good. Now let's get going.

Start by reading Anton's "The Unknown Known" at the tail end of the Satanic Rituals. Notice the power of 9? Anton was a prize 'og for 9 in all of its semblances, manifestations, and radiations. Like the Pentagram, whose key is explained in Appendix #6 of The Temple of Set, 9 kicks far more Black Magical ass than RHP occultists ever imagined.

In this instance, and as used on the Church's original Seal of the Council of YouKnowWhat, 666 is merely a demonstration of 9: 6+6+6=18 and 1+8=9. 6x6x6=216 and 2+1+6=9. Wasn't that easy - and right there before you all the time. What the heck, why stop now: 18+216=234 and 2+3+4=9. 216-18=198 and 1+9+8=18 and 1+8= ... Isn't this fun?

Once sensitized to 9, the Black Magician can use its power in many ways - for calculation, prediction, suggestion, revelation. Here, I'll show you:

Think of any number between 1 and 10.
Multiply it times 9.
You now have a 2-digit number. Add the digits together to get a 1-digit number.
Subtract the Pentagram (5) from that number.
Now pick the letter of the alphabet that corresponds to your new number (example: 1=A, 2=B, etc.)
Think of a country whose name begins with that letter.
Think of an animal whose name begins with the last letter of that country's name.
Think of a fruit whose name begins with the last letter of that animal's name.

Now go to the thread "Read Concise Meaning 666 First" over in "Food & Drink".

That's the power of 9 in action. Now that you know, enjoy all sorts of experiments and operations with it.

_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#33877 - 01/11/10 11:55 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Good job of spoon feeding.

Dr. Aquino is right though. All of this mental masturbation about 666 and trying to warp the world to fit into IT is indeed the antichrist. The number 6 and 666 has always been more anecdotal to the Church of Satan than anything else, and, as you will learn by READING The Unknown Known at the end of The Satanic Rituals, for good reason.

And LaVey wasn't above a few inside clues to those who had their heads on straight and the blinders off. The license plates on two of his most popular vehicles carried the digits 999, being his Toronado, 999 FCS and the Cord, 999 BOM.

"Now, if 6 turned up to be 9,
I don't mind, I don't mind.
If all the hippies cut off their hair,
I don't care, I don't care.
Dig, 'CoS I got my own world to live through
And I ain't gonna copy you."

Jimi sang it... pretty sure he knew.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#33904 - 01/12/10 08:41 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
666 is quite obviously the number of the beast in most western translations; those with a boner for the science of esoteric correspondences (aka, our lovely "occult porn") can draw a correlation to the multiplied sum of the cabalistic square of the Sun derived by Agrippa in his Three Books of Occult Philosophy; interpreted, one can come full circle by linking this to a relation to the concept of Lucifer as a solar-phallic deity akin to Horus or Sol Invictus.

Of course, this doesn't really mean squat since the original number in the earliest greek manuscripts was in fact 616.

It's fun to sort through the endless volumes of Qabalistic wisdom, only to conclude at the end that it's a giant load of nonsense. (Admittedly; nonsense of a deliciously engrossing variety.)
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#33906 - 01/12/10 09:39 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Gldn Sprl Pth Offline
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Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 2
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
Sometimes a number is just a number...

What? So you're saying sometimes a heptagon is just a square?

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

 Originally Posted By: Gldn Sprl Pth
First of all 6 is the archetype for structure, function, and order.


And you base this on what exactly? What if I were to say that 3 is the archetype for structure, function,and order?


To me it is self-evident that 6 is structure, function, and order; that is like saying: "oh, so you think light (or heat) is required for life? And you base that on what exactly?"

Wisdom is a type of "instinctual knowledge," but if you just don't get it, then maybe you should get or read the book A Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe: Mathematical Archetypes of Nature, Art, and Science by Michael S. Schneider. It gives the basics on all of the numbers 1-10. It's a beginner's book but you have to start somewhere. Search for it and read the reviews from Amazon.


 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Kether? Malkuth? Tiphareth? Gibberish?


This has to do with the Cabala (there are many correct alternative spellings for "Cabala" such as "Qabalah").

I think Michael implied the system as only Hebrew, but this is not true. It is a universal system found in many different cultures. I suggest reading The Mystical Qabalah by Dion Fortune, even though it is the Hebrew based system, because they are all basically very similar.

 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

So 666: First please throw the entire Hebrew Cabala in the trashcan where it has always belonged, as what Anton called "occult pornography". Good. Now let's get going.


How could I possibly disregard the information when much of it is self-evidently true to me? I understand most of the books are way off in regards to certain key points and omits key information, as even the book The Mystical Qabalah by Dion Fortune does, but it still has a lot of good information.

 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

Start by reading Anton's "The Unknown Known" at the tail end of the Satanic Rituals. Notice the power of 9? Anton was a prize 'og for 9 in all of its semblances, manifestations, and radiations. Like the Pentagram, whose key is explained in Appendix #6 of The Temple of Set, 9 kicks far more Black Magical ass than RHP occultists ever imagined.


I am open minded to analyzing all knowledge.

 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

In this instance, and as used on the Church's original Seal of the Council of YouKnowWhat, 666 is merely a demonstration of 9: 6+6+6=18 and 1+8=9. 6x6x6=216 and 2+1+6=9. Wasn't that easy - and right there before you all the time. What the heck, why stop now: 18+216=234 and 2+3+4=9. 216-18=198 and 1+9+8=18 and 1+8= ... Isn't this fun?


Please excuse my lack of modesty as my devil horns temporarily come out.
In regards to 666 being reduced to 18, and then again 9, I figured that out a long time ago, and it is very basic "101" knowledge in regards to analyzing 666. Speaking of 216, that number was mentioned in the movie Pi ( a Darren Aronofsky film) as being the number of letters to contain God's name. Even though the movie never revealed the "puzzle," it took me about 2 minutes to figure out that the number 216 mentioned in the movie was relating to 6 cubed.

 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

Once sensitized to 9, the Black Magician can use its power in many ways - for calculation, prediction, suggestion, revelation. Here, I'll show you:

Think of any number between 1 and 10.
Multiply it times 9.
You now have a 2-digit number. Add the digits together to get a 1-digit number.
Subtract the Pentagram (5) from that number.
Now pick the letter of the alphabet that corresponds to your new number (example: 1=A, 2=B, etc.)
Think of a country whose name begins with that letter.
Think of an animal whose name begins with the last letter of that country's name.
Think of a fruit whose name begins with the last letter of that animal's name.

Now go to the thread "Read Concise Meaning 666 First" over in "Food & Drink".

That's the power of 9 in action. Now that you know, enjoy all sorts of experiments and operations with it.


Don't mistake me for having the intelligence level of the profane:
Because of one of the laws of 9, the two-digit number will always be a number that reduces to 9, which means that after subtracting 5 you will always get the letter "D."
The rest plays out the way it does for obvious psychological reasons.

 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel

I think at its core the linguistic trick mentioned above (which exists in many permutations, by the way!) is a good example of what we would term LBM.

I remember a course I took called "Mind Reading: Language, Cognition and Literature". It was an amazing course, and focused on cognitive mechanics and the mind's tendency toward certain imagery and linguistic models. The mathematical/linguistic trick played here is a perfect example of leading someone in a direction you want them to go. Sweet, sweet manipulation.

A simpler version is to write 'orange' on one side of a piece of paper and 'apple' on another, then asking people to mention a fruit. In more than 90% of all cases English-speaking subjects will respond with one of the two fruits. Simply pull out the note with the right side forward and ask how you could guess the fruit the person was thinking of.

The use of a piece of paper is a dramatic tool, much like Bergman's focus on fetishes and displays of physical aptitude in the theatre. A person eating a food item on stage will magically attract attention. A person tearing a newspaper into five exactly congruent shapes will attract attention. A person guiding your mind through an exercise will hold sway over your gullibility, since your critical faculties automatically switch off as you ride shotgun.

It's good fun, and good practice.


I see what you're doing here, like Michael, But those tricks are for kids.
Silence is Golden, so I'm done talking, besides no one really answered my question.
_________________________
How many corners do I have to turn,how many times do I have to learn,that AllTheLoveiHaveIsInMyMind.

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#33908 - 01/12/10 09:56 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: Gldn Sprl Pth]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
What? So you're saying sometimes a heptagon is just a square?


No. I am saying that sometimes a number is just a number. Read it again if that still didn't sink in.

 Quote:
To me it is self-evident that 6 is structure, function, and order; that is like saying: "oh, so you think light (or heat) is required for life? And you base that on what exactly?"


You know, some people think it is "self evident" that there is a God, yet I still require more evidence or proof of such claims. What you are essentially saying is "it seems true to me". Sorry but the world doesn't work like that. Just believing something, no matter how sincere that belief may be, does not make it true.

So either explain how, why and to what end, a number, specifically the number 6, "is structure, function and order" or admit you are talking out your ass. And just for the sake of argument: light (or heat) is not required for life. Consider all the different species that make their homes in the greatest depths of the ocean where there is surely no light or heat.
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No gods. No masters.

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#33914 - 01/13/10 01:56 AM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: Gldn Sprl Pth]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3117
As Satanarchist said, a number is a number.
There is an history behind the 666 issue, being it used in the book of revelation which was written during a time Christians were being searched after and put before the choice of converting to the old Roman religion or staying a Christian and be put to death.
The number 666 was used as a reference to the Caesar Nero who in his time was prosecuting Christians. I guess you'll find more then enough information about it if you search well enough.

There is nothing "magical" about numbers, unless ofcourse you start estimating the power of maths. Integrals, differentials, the unknown and variable "x", Pythagoras, the number i with the special ability of i^2= -1,..
And many other mathematical discoveries and possibilities.
Many numbers are used in a metaphysical way or just as a symbol, do whatever you please, but keep the bullshit like the magical power of 666 and others out of my sight if it isn't in a hystorical context.

BBC did a nice documentary once about the subject-->
clickie
click around a bit and you'll find the whole thing.


Edited by Dimitri (01/13/10 02:03 AM)
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#33916 - 01/13/10 02:41 AM The Number of the Duck [Re: Gldn Sprl Pth]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Gldn Sprl Pth
... Don't mistake me for having the intelligence level of the profane ... besides no one really answered my question.

Gee willikers, you're right! You asked such a bright question, and all you got were stupid answers. Forget about "The Unknown Known", fish your cherished Hebrew Cabala out of the trashcan, and spend years immersed in it.

The rest of us will probably be over on YouTube watching Walt Disney's Donald in Mathmagic Land; at least I will be, since that's more my speed.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#33919 - 01/13/10 03:23 AM Re: The Number of the Duck [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
PeteOfTheDead Offline
member


Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Brunswick, Melbourne, Victoria...
Disney? Nah I'll be watching Iron Maiden videos:

<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Vn_j9T_DD4k&hl=en_US&fs=1&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Vn_j9T_DD4k&hl=en_US&fs=1&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>

When I've finished doing that I'll watch The Omen:

<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3PuIBNLOeEU&hl=en_US&fs=1&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3PuIBNLOeEU&hl=en_US&fs=1&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>
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"The snake will always bite back."
"Every moment is an experience."
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#33938 - 01/13/10 06:45 AM Re: The Number of the Duck [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
And we all know why 6 was afraid of 7. Because 7 8 9.

Like I said before, the whole 666 thing today is simply the insane effort of people of some level of intelligence trying desperately to cram their personal theories into an established "code of evil." You can find theory after theory after theory on why 666 is the devil's number and why it's the number that will control the world. Well, you can see the same phenomenon with 777 and other numbers. It's a case of co-option of a symbol to give some validity to an otherwise untenable delusion -- or at best a catchy and quirky theory.

But then, look at all of the gyrations and mental contortionism that we see to fit things into Satanism. The tag is a source of readymade power, so if there's a way to hang one's hat on its hook, one might feel that it lends some credence to the incredulous. Remember Satianity? Before that the Synagogue or Satan? We've seen a lot of this phenomenon here.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, but calling shit a rose still stinks.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#33942 - 01/13/10 10:08 AM Re: The Number of the Duck [Re: Jake999]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
I have never given numerology the study I probably should. My interest in it really came from my study of the Kabbalah.

Never the less, it has been my observation that few really seem to be able harness any power from it beyond various parlor tricks.

I don't know enough about these systems to truly discount them but there is little that would cause me to put much stock in them.

Food for thought - sometimes, burning candles and chanting to yourself in the dark is just that...
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#33979 - 01/14/10 04:52 AM Re: The Number of the Duck [Re: Fist]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: Fist
I have never given numerology the study I probably should. My interest in it really came from my study of the Kabbalah.


An entertaining experiment to do, and which I have done, is to tell someone who doesn't know any better that last year was a (insert number here) year for them and then explain what that means, but purposely give the person the wrong number. Watch the person rationalize how incredibly accurate that was!

It's easy to do. "Correctly" calculated, a person's year number is their birth month plus birth day plus the calendar year with the resulting sum's digits added and re-added until the result is a single digit or 11 or 22. So if a person's birthday is July 13, then last year's number equals 2009 + 7 + 13 which equals 2029 - then add the digits to get 13 - then add those digits to get 4. Now tell that person their year number was 3 or 5, let's say, and watch the rationalization begin! Meanings of numbers are readily found on the web.

Rationalization works similarly with respect to astrological personality interpretation. Any practicing astrologer will tell you that to interpret a personality, it isn't enough to use only the sun sign, but the moon and rising sign as well. Thing is, once you're using three signs, there are enough different traits represented that if the customer says, "Wow, my sun sign doesn't sound like me, I'm more like this," the practitioner can almost always say, "Oh, but that trait is from your moon sign" - or, "That trait is from your rising sign" - and the customer will be amazed at how brilliant it all is! \:\)

Systems like these were invented to bilk the rubes, of course, and must have seemed almost like old friends to a carny like LaVey.
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#33999 - 01/14/10 08:36 PM Re: The Number of the Duck [Re: Baron dHolbach]
zippadydooda Offline
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Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 61
Loc: San Diego, California
On the subject of 666, I found my mother and father watching a video on it some months ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtquNNEO7Fw

I'm aware that Walid Shoebat is a fraud, but It's still interesting how he tries to make 666 be about Islam. Even though he's a fraud, he still might be onto something about a mistranslation.

A step further (warning: contains poorly thought out conspiracy theory. Read at your own risk)

If he is correct about the mistranslation of 666, than it's very possible that Islam its self is a conspiracy, a self fulfiling prophecy designed by muhamad to create the anti christ.

*Assuming there was SOME truth to what he said.
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Blathering nonsense.

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#34168 - 01/18/10 11:15 AM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: Gldn Sprl Pth]
Meq Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
The number 666 in connection with the Beast appears to have originated from the book of Revelation(s) in the Christian New Testament:

"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." (Revelation 13:18, KJV)

Revelation 13:18 in various translations

Despite fundamentalists' disdain for numerology and other 'occult' practices, there is much evidence of numerology in the New Testament.

Also, the author of the Book of Revelation was 1) not St John the Apostle (as traditionally thought), and 2) situated on the island of Patmos, famous for both natural gas fissures and psilocybin mushrooms (then as today). The kind of nightmarish visions described in Revelation are much more likely the result of ingesting such substances than an "inspiration by the Holy Spirit", despite Church dogma to the contrary...

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#34172 - 01/18/10 12:14 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: Meq]
DistroyA Offline
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
Plus, wasn't the number of the Beast originally 6 *1* 6 in the Catholic Bible?

Edited by DistroyA (01/18/10 12:15 PM)
Edit Reason: Needed asterisks for added emphasis
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#34173 - 01/18/10 01:07 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: DistroyA]
Meq Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
The Wikipedia article covers some interesting points, including arguments that the original number was 616, and the adoption of 666 by Aleister Crowley (see other interpretations).

This may also be of interest:
Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobia (fear of the number 666)


Edited by Meq (01/18/10 01:35 PM)
Edit Reason: Added article

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#34177 - 01/18/10 04:28 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: Meq]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Just for fun, adding some "occult porn" on 6 and Allah.

In the Arab Abjad, Allah is numerically transposed as 5 (ha) 30 (lam) 30 (lam) & 1 (alif) for a total of... 66 \:o

Can we conclude Allah is 2 thirds of a beast ? LOL ! \:D

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#34180 - 01/18/10 05:57 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: Meq]
Baron dHolbach Offline
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Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162


I think I have long-ass-word-a-phobia.

In any case, I like 616 better because if you add the digits together the sum is 13, so it's two for the price of one! So then you can have 666-phobia and 13-phobia simultaneously and really scare the shit out of yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triskaidekaphobia
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The baboon is the soul of man.



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#34243 - 01/19/10 10:39 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



“Once sensitized to 9, the Black Magician can use its power in many ways - for calculation, prediction, suggestion, revelation.”

I am running a bit late here in responding to this particular thread, but I still wanted to add a post.

To Dr. Aquino

I find the information which you have provided to this Gldn Sprl Pth to be rather remarkable and I am surprised that he or she is not going to follow it up further.

There are many aspects of the Satanic philosophy and the practices of the C.O.S, which I am still trying to work out and understand. The significance of the 9 is one of those aspects.

I have read The Unknown Known a few times and am still surprised by its content.

Dr. LaVey seems to be drawing out definite periods of time, such as workings, ages, epochs etc. on the basis of a law of the 9.

Time or history seem to be understandable or readable (at a very broad level) through a logic of the 9, and further human beings and their societies and their actions are possibly readable or understandable (at a very broad level), through a logic of the 9 as well.

I do not know if I am off track here or not – more study required.

I am not sure how serious Dr. LaVey was about all this, or whether he was speaking tongue in cheek, but it is interesting that there is of course a Council of 9.

It seems obvious that 9 was an important number to The Church and still is in some sense.

I do take 6’s point on numbers just being numbers, but…

Obviously, I have a hell of a lot of work to do here to get a deeper understanding of this. Some of Fist’s intellectual heavy lifting is required.

The example you have provided to this Gldn Sprl Pth is interesting - If one follows the formula, than the outcome of thinking is completely predictable every time. I am assuming that this is just one of many such formulas. Will enjoy studying this!

Does your example and your understanding of the power of the 9 have any sort of relevance to your work in Psy – ops?

Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree, but I have a feeling that some vast and dark order is wrapped up in all this.

Best wishes to you.

Matt from Sydney

P.S. have a ton of work to do on the trapezoid as well and the particular place it held in Mortensen’s work, and consequently the perception, knowledge and organisation or order of The Church.

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#34251 - 01/20/10 04:02 AM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: ]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
“Once sensitized to 9, the Black Magician can use its power in many ways - for calculation, prediction, suggestion, revelation.”


I'll toss this in for fun, since it seems it will interest you. There is a reason businesses will price their products at X dollars and 99 cents, instead of X+1 dollars. Part of it is the obvious; I.e, the dim witted will perceive the price as nearer to X than to X+1; but there is, in addition to that, another element at play. Studies have been done that indicate a statistically greater likelihood for consumers to buy a product priced at X dollars and 99 cents, than at lower prices, such as X dollars and 84 cents*. There is a psychological triggering power to the number 9. Remember that I'm saying psychological. I'm talking strictly about the Subjective. But on the Subjective the number 9 has demonstrated enough power as to help justify a ubiquitous business practice, that of pricing products at X and 99 cents.

*Obviously businesses will rather price at X and 99 cents as opposed to, say, X and 84 cents, if the former will trigger more sales, since the former has the added virtue of being a higher price and thus increases the profit margin at point of sale.
_________________________
The baboon is the soul of man.



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#34253 - 01/20/10 05:09 AM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
Time or history seem to be understandable or readable (at a very broad level) through a logic of the 9, and further human beings and their societies and their actions are possibly readable or understandable (at a very broad level), through a logic of the 9 as well.

I do not know if I am off track here or not ...

On track. As the esteem'd Baron has just pointed out, one of the properties of 9 is that people are drawn to it, much as they are to the Golden Ratio. So if you talk of 9-year cycles, or 9-anything-else, you will always elicit more attention & interest than, say, 8-s. [Ever hear of that great Hollywood film Plan 8 from Outer Space?] If I had to guess, I would say this is probably a subconscious ripple-effect from all the mathemagic connected with that number.

 Quote:
I am not sure how serious Dr. LaVey was about all this, or whether he was speaking tongue in cheek, but it is interesting that there is of course a Council of 9.

Completely serious. Even when we were just goofing off in Santa Barbara or L.A., any 9-phenomenon always got him going. He would have gone apeshit with Google.

The Church of Satan's Council of Nine actually had varying and arbitrary membership pre-1975; its original title was Council of the Trapezoid, but later took the C9 title after Mundy's The Nine Unknown. When we founded the Temple of Set in 1975, we formalized the C9 as the Temple's corporate Board of Directors, with each Councillor serving a 9-year term (one expiring each successive year). A board or council of that size works out very well in practice, and of course doesn't tie-vote either.

 Quote:
Does your example and your understanding of the power of the 9 have any sort of relevance to your work in Psy – ops?

Only to the extent that in PSYOP intelligence and campaign-design we would always consider target audience susceptibilities, including superstitions. You could, for example, use stage magic 9-tricks to suggest that you were a sorcerer or shaman, which can be useful at times, etc.

 Quote:
I have a feeling that some vast and dark order is wrapped up in all this.

Well, the Order of the Trapezoid has considered it one of its signature interests, and has amassed a startling amount of research & lore over the decades. You get astronomers, physicists, theoretical mathematicians, and other assorted weirdos together for a weekend and things can get very freaky very fast.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#34282 - 01/20/10 06:03 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I wanted to include The Unknown Known in a post for members to examine.

No doubt many members have already read this piece of writing before, but some members may not have.

It may also be useful to remove it from the text of TSR and look at it in isolation.

THE UNKNOWN KNOWN

Despite others' attempts to identify a certain number with
Satan, it will be known that Nine is His number. Nine is the
number of the Ego, for it always returns to itself. No matter
what is done through the most complex multiplication of Nine
by any other number, in the final equation nine alone will stand
forth.

The true ages of time are cast in the likeness of Nine, with
all cycles obedient to its Law. All matters of terrestrial concern
may be evaluated by the infallible resolution of Nine and its
offspring. Action and reaction relative to humanity's tribal
needs are contained within successive nine-year periods: the
total of both (eighteen years) is called a Working. The beginning
and end of each Working is called a Working Year, and
each midway point between the Working Years displays a
zenith of intensity for the Working which has been brought
about.

Nine eighteen-year Workings equal an Era (162 years).
Nine Eras equal an Age (1,458 years), which has been mistakenly
called a millennium. Nine Ages equal an Epoch
(13,122 years).

Each Age (1,458 years) alternates as Fire or Ice, each
differing in the means by which the Control presents its dictum.
During an Age of Ice, man is taught to refrain from his pride
and to retreat from himself; then he will be good. During an
Age of Fire, man is taught to indulge himself and to tear
himself open and look inside; then he will be good. During
an Ice Age, God is above. During a Fire Age, God is beneath.
Throughout each Age, big things occur each eighteen years, for
the Control must maintain a cycle of action and reaction within
the greater cycle of Fire and Ice.

Meaningful and portentous messages are cast forth each
eighteen years, and are acted upon for the eighteen years which
follow, at the end of which a new statement appears. The Ice
Age from which we recently emerged began in the year 508
"A.D." Just as the zenith of passion for what each Working
has inspired occurs halfway between the Working Years, so the
greatest intensity of each Age's message occurs at its midpoint.
Thus in the year 1237 "A.D." man's fervor for what the last
Ice Age represented had reached its summit. That Age ended
in 1966, and the new Age of Fire was born.

The twentieth century has prepared us for the future and
the coming of the Age of Fire was well heralded in the last
Working Years of the Ice Age. The peoples of the Earth have
been touched by the vehicles of 1894, 1912, 1930, and 1948,
and communication has been well wrought. The new Satanic
Age was born in 1966, and that is why His Church was built.

The infant is learning to walk, and by the first Working
Year of his age-that is to say 1984-he will have steadied his
steps, and by the next-2002-he will have attained maturity,
and his reign will be filled with wisdom, reason and delight.

REGE SATANAS!
AVE, SATANAS!
HAIL, SATAN!

There are a couple of initial points, I would like to make here:

• This particular piece of writing has been included at the end of a book of rituals. The piece of writing itself, however, does not conform to the structure or pattern of the rituals in the book. Is the Unknown Known a ritual or ceremony of some sort? And if so, what sort?
• Is The Unknown Known a sort of declaration of universal and necessary truth or a revelation of sorts?
• Is Dr. LaVey declaring his own particular subjective claims in The Unknown Known?

If this piece of writing cannot be construed as some sort of psychodrama, than LaVey held the opinion (at the time the Unknown Known was written and published) that Satan was a real conscious entity of some sort, in my view. The fact that the 9 became so important to The Church, suggests to me, that this piece of writing was more valuable than mere psychodrama.

If the above point is true than LaVey and his organisation held some form of infernal mandate, as far as LaVey and a certain portion of his organisation was concerned.

If the above point is true than his Church was a real and genuine C.O.S and its degrees were genuine, as far as LaVey and his organisation was concerned.

Now before the Atheist cops come rushing in here to trash this, can you please look at The Unknown Known and make a comment on it and the conclusions I am drawing here. I am an Atheist as I have stated before and I am not trying to force you to reject your position, nor am I trying to alter mine at this stage.

I know that LaVey publicly stated many times that Satan was a symbol. I have examined a large amount of Dr. LaVey’s public statements, including The Occult Explosion and I think I have quite a good grasp of The Churches public face.

To Jake

I don’t think I have to tell you this, but I have a high regard for you and Dr. LaVey so please keep this in mind. I am just exploring and trying to get an understanding of a particular piece of writing and its consequences.

To Dr. Aquino

How does this play out? I want to get into a deeper study of Set and the principles of the Temple, but would like to do that at a later time and am also not sure what I am authorised to read and study anyway.

Right now, I am interested in what Satan is or was to the pre 1975 Church and also how Satan functions as a genuine and intelligent entity?

Is Satan a dark flame or intelligence, which animates the carnal subject?

What sort of place can Satan hold when the cultural tradition from which he emerges is suspect in some sense, or occupied by an all powerful, but illusory God?

I’m sorry Dr. Aquino, you have probably been fielding questions of this sort for years.

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#34284 - 01/20/10 06:26 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: ]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Surely you understand the concepts of symbolism and metaphor.

"Satan" is used as a symbol. The personification of that symbol in prose is to give it intimacy with the reader. Nothing more.

It's as if I was saying, "Oh the demon rum... he tasks me sorely and makes me ill in the morning." Now, you and I both know that rum is an inanimate object... well, it can be animated going down my gullet... but it has no self determining power, nor has it any power to task me in reality. But as a metaphor for its effects... symbology given life in prose to make a point... it can be shown as an entity.

As for what LaVey's stance on the anthropomorphism of Satan was pre 1975, all you have to do is listen to the first minute of the 1973 LP recording THE OCCULT EXPLOSION, which you can find here: http://www.the600club.com/topic33445-1.html

The album came out in 1973, however, given lead times in making the interviews of LaVey and several other prominent "occultists" of the time, we can easily see that this was his belief prior to that time... to at least 1971. He states CLEARLY that Satan is not an anthropomorphic being, but that he understands that some members of the Church of Satan might think differently and why he allows that within the organization.

Now, I know it fits well with the agendas of some to have us think that LaVey was theistic. I'm sorry, but it just wasn't the fact. If you can't take it from his own words, then I can't help you with the delusion that he felt differently. We can speculate anything. But when a man tells you what he believes...
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#34294 - 01/20/10 08:39 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: Jake999]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Thanks for your post Jake.

Your position is certainly noted and I also recognise that Dr.LaVey made a number of statements to the public or other audiences regarding the symbolic or metaphorical quality of Satan.

It would seem to me that these particular statements of Dr. LaVey's focused on what Satan represents or how Satan represents, rather than whether Satan "himself" is real or not.

May I ask - in regards to The Unknown Known. How would you read this particular piece of writing?

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#34295 - 01/20/10 08:43 PM Re: Concise meaning of 666? [Re: ]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
WHAT THE FUCK PART OF "Satan, to us, is a SYMBOL, rather than an anthropomorphic being" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

You're either being intentionally obtuse or intellectually dishonest. I have no time for either.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#34300 - 01/20/10 10:42 PM Geraldo, it's all just symbolism. [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
I know that LaVey publicly stated many times that Satan was a symbol. I have examined a large amount of Dr. LaVey’s public statements, including The Occult Explosion and I think I have quite a good grasp of The Churches public face.

During 1966-75 both Anton personally and the Church organizationally presented an unthreatening public face and a serious, literal private face (particularly within the Priesthood). There was no doubt that Anton believed in [and personally represented as his High Priest] Satan; indeed it would have been unthinkable to even ask such a question.

It was just as obvious to him and us that this is exactly what would scare the Great Unwashed and result in villager torchight parades as you see in the old Universal monster films. Therefore "symbolism" was standard practice when giving lectures, interviews, etc.

Post-1975, for reasons which I think are obvious in my Church of Satan ebook, Anton generally stopped commenting on Satan as an entity altogether. "Satanism" and "Satanic" became lifestyle descriptions, most usually his own: how he behaved was de facto "Satanic", period. [Satan Speaks, typically, was "Anton Speaks".] That's the Anton that Jake met, so his take doesn't surprise me at all.

 Quote:
How does ["The Unknown Known"] play out? I want to get into a deeper study of Set and the principles of the Temple, but would like to do that at a later time and am also not sure what I am authorised to read and study anyway.

In COS I wrote:

 Quote:
At the conclusion of the Satanic Rituals there is a short epilogue entitled “The Unknown Known”. It touches obliquely on Hans Hörbiger’s Welteislehre, or Doctrine of Eternal Ice, in which the history of the universe consists of alternating cycles of fire and ice. The “Wel”, as it was termed, gained popularity in Nazi Germany because of Adolf Hitler’s enthusiasm for Hörbiger, whom he called “the German Copernicus”.

Anton LaVey, however, offers the theory in a social, not a cosmological context. The key number, he suggests, is nine - the number of the Devil because it always “returns to itself” when subjected to basic mathematical computations. [For example: 9x3=27 and 2+7=9. 92=81 and 8+1=9.]

History, says Anton, is divided into “Epochs” of 13,122 years. Each Epoch is divided into nine “Ages” (1,458 years), and each Age consists of nine “Eras” (162 years). An Era is divided into nine 18-year “Workings”.

A Working consists of nine years of “action” followed by nine years of “reaction”, with the mid-point year being a “zenith of intensity” and the beginning and ending years being “Working Years”. The initial Working Year sees the generation of the Working, while the final one is witness to its ultimate product.

Whether or not there is any external basis for this theory of social evolution, it is intriguing to note that the history of the Church of Satan itself adhered to it. At the mid-point of the mid-year of the “Working” begun in mid-1966, the Church went through a crisis which resulted in its transmutation into the Temple of Set.

Strictly speaking, the Temple is not so much a “reaction” to the doctrines or design of the Church as it is an “evolutionary succession” to them.

And what of the final Working Year (1983 CE)? At the Wewelsburg Castle in Westphalia in October 1982 CE, an appropriate Working was celebrated, the nature and results of which are beyond the scope of this volume and are discussed in the Jeweled Tablets of Set.

That last was the [famous/infamous] "Wewelsburg Working", which has since become a significant part of the castle's lore, most recently in this extensive anthology. [Or just Google "Aquino Wewelsburg" for raves, rumors, & rants.]

 Quote:
I’m sorry Dr. Aquino, you have probably been fielding questions of this sort for years.

No apology necessary, but I think we've crisscrossed much of this in other 600C threads to date, so you might want to browse through them. As for the documents of the Temple of Set, the vast bulk of them are membership-access only. A small portion has trickled/pirated onto the Internet, but much of that is inaccurate, incomplete, or obsolete; just about everything except historical material is constantly being revised, expanded, updated. Even when I was High Priest I had to scramble to keep up.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#34303 - 01/20/10 11:04 PM Re: Geraldo, it's all just symbolism. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Hello wall....
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#34321 - 01/21/10 09:09 AM Re: Geraldo, it's all just symbolism. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
111Cal Offline
member


Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
During 1966-75 both Anton personally and the Church organizationally presented an unthreatening public face and a serious, literal private face (particularly within the Priesthood). There was no doubt that Anton believed in [and personally represented as his High Priest] Satan; indeed it would have been unthinkable to even ask such a question.

It was just as obvious to him and us that this is exactly what would scare the Great Unwashed and result in villager torchight parades as you see in the old Universal monster films. Therefore "symbolism" was standard practice when giving lectures, interviews, etc.

Post-1975, for reasons which I think are obvious in my Church of Satan ebook, Anton generally stopped commenting on Satan as an entity altogether.


Dr. Aquino-----

I am very curious as to your opinion. Post-1975, do you believe that LaVey stopped believing in Satan as a literal entity all together??? Or simply stopped talking about it with others?

I mean that quite honestly. I do not question your integrity at all, but am curious if you feel that LaVey had a change of beliefs or simply decided to become quiet on the issue?

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#34323 - 01/21/10 09:23 AM Re: Geraldo, it's all just symbolism. [Re: 111Cal]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
He's done that one several times... although I'm sure he'll be more than glad to do it again. By the way, he wrote an ebook about it.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#34324 - 01/21/10 09:28 AM Re: Geraldo, it's all just symbolism. [Re: Jake999]
111Cal Offline
member


Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
Hey Jake

Ive read his ebooks over the years and have read his comments. HOWEVER from my recollection I dont recall his opinions on what he feels LaVey believed post 1975. Dr. Aquino is vocal in his statements that pre-75 LaVey believed in a literal entity of Satan, and that he shyed away from that... but my question is
does Dr. Aquino believe that Anton LaVey STILL believed in a literal Satan post-75? Or that he simply stopped talking about him?

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#34326 - 01/21/10 10:02 AM Re: Geraldo, it's all just symbolism. [Re: 111Cal]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Really? Does every thread have to turn into this redundant argument? Whatever happened to STAYING ON TOPIC?

"Yes he did."

"No he didn't."

"Yes he did."

"No he didn't."

"Yes, he, DID!"

"No, he, DIDN'T!"

It's enough to make a man's head spin. I fear it won't be long before every thread on this forum is turned into an argument about what LaVey did or didn't believe.

Admins, Mods, can something please done about this? At the very least have a specific thread created for this topic. Personally I think it is retarded idea for thread but this argument is not going away anytime soon and it is better for it to have its own thread than to have continue you in every other thread.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#34340 - 01/21/10 02:23 PM Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: 111Cal]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: 111Cal
I am very curious as to your opinion. Post-1975, do you believe that LaVey stopped believing in Satan as a literal entity all together??? Or simply stopped talking about it with others?

I mean that quite honestly. I do not question your integrity at all, but am curious if you feel that LaVey had a change of beliefs or simply decided to become quiet on the issue?

Anton's belief in and commitment to Satan prior to 1975 was adamant and uncompromising. I saw his handwritten Pact, which he kept in a strongbox and presumably burned per the Ninth Solstice Message. I saw and heard him myself in countless nonpublic ritual and nonritual situations.

Indeed I always shake my head that I even have to argue this point, considering that he dedicated his entire life and being to "the Man Downstairs"; but that's apparently the result of the Church;s aforementioned emphasis on "symbolism" when dealing with the public, and of course the 1975 crisis - after which of course he could not just go back and undo it.

 Originally Posted By: Heinrich Himmler 4/21/45
We have made serious mistakes. If I could have a fresh start, I would do many things differently now. But it is too late. We wanted greatness and security for Germany, and we are leaving behind us a pile of ruins, a fallen world ...

I'm not a mindreader, but Anton and I were long & close-enough friends - he called me his "Devil son" - that I came to know how he thought (on which he also commented more than once). I think that after 1975 the metaphysical dimension of Satan & Satanism became something that he just blanked out. He remained, of course, a brilliant and multitalented man with a voluptuously decadent lifestyle, so he had plenty "else" to preoccupy him, as his writings, music, and other post-75 expressions amply evidence.

It is no small irony to me that if there's one thing on which today's ASLV supporters and detractors back-slappingly agree, it's that he was a "religious phony" who did not really believe in the Devil. That comforts those who used to hate and fear him, because now they can dismiss him as just a carny snake-oil salesman and "junkyard intellectual". It also reassures and validates those who are titillated and inspired by his later lifestyle, but who are either too jaded or too afraid to face the Darkness themselves.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#34356 - 01/21/10 10:42 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
A BIG IN GENERAL REPLY!!!!!!

OH MY FUCKING EVIL GOD!!!!!!!!

Seriously, people.

Can't someone just believe in both things?
Why does everything need to be so cut and dry.
You evolve and choose to eat different food from when you were a child.
You also choose not to eat the same food every day.

I made a pact too. Over 30 fucking years ago!!!!!!!

Has my thinking evolved a bit, sure.
Do I use Satan as a figure in Ritual use, YES.
Do I believe in a literal Hell, NO.
Do I think Satan is going to walk through my door and have dinner with me, NO.
Do I use the archetype of Satan in my life, YES.
DO I have the mark of the Devil or Baphomet tatted on me, YES.

Satanism is about living and doing.

Sweating over the small details of what a dead man believed in his heart is stupid and pointless.
He's dead, and can't tell you the whys and reasons behind what he said and to whom he said it and what it all meant.

You take solice in your memories, your knowledge earned, and the things you experienced. You wrap up everything and make it a part of who you are.

Who you are, and what you know is unlike anyone anywhere at any point in time.
THUS.....
Suck it up, no one will ever agree upon the same thing.
Your TOTAL LIFE VIEW will NEVER BE anyone else's TOTAL LIFE VIEW.

The only thing you can agree upon is that you believe in the Truth of the basic words written in the Satanic Bible.

In the darkest corners of your heart, you know if you are a Satanist or not, and no one can take that from you.

Morgan

_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#34359 - 01/21/10 11:15 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: Morgan]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
I agree entirely, Morgan. Concerns about what Dr LaVey "really" believed will inevitably lead to futile arguments. People who have been inspired by someone no longer alive will want to mould that person's memory to fit their own interests and biases. This is not a case of conscious manipulation, rather the outcome of a desire to honour that person's memory and to fight their detractors.
The opinions and comments expressed on this thread remind me of the followers of "Crowleyanity" both within and without the OTO who will excuse their habit of cadging money, hospitality and so on by claiming that Crowley was an incorrigible user of others' resources and quoting, "The slaves shall serve".
I prefer to quote Gautama Buddha, "Be you lamps unto yourselves". The LHP is something every individual has to carve out and follow for themselves. Dr LaVey had his and its purpose was to serve as an example, not a map.
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#34380 - 01/22/10 07:12 AM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: felixgarnet]
111Cal Offline
member


Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
I would disagree 100%. What LaVey did or did not believe has a direct influence on Satanism today. And is a valid discussion.

JUST as we discuss years later other past figures such as Lincoln, Washington, Hitler, Christ, Buddha, Aristotle, Plato, and on and on and on.

It is true that we may never really know 100%, however since there are so many still here, who have firsthand knowledge, I think its a useful discusssion (even if we do go round-and-round-and-round at times)

As for believing both? I see Morgans point and I can respect her views... but the fact is that one either believes in a Theistic Satanism or doesnt.... There is either a literal Satan as an entity or not. Now of course, there can be varying degrees and interpretations to that... but its one of those things that either IS or ISNT... at least on some level.

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#34390 - 01/22/10 09:01 AM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: 111Cal]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
LaVey had a major effect when he was ALIVE.
Once he died, it became open to speculation and personal interpretation.

The idea of what LaVey thought and felt inside his own heart, is anyone's guess at this point. If two of his closest friends can not agree upon what he felt, then maybe that itself speaks volumns. The back and forth banter has gone beyond what is really necessary.

Aquino = LITERAL SATAN, and everything that comes with it.
Jake = FIGURATIVE SATAN and everything that come with it.
They stand apart on this issue and never the twain shall meet.

There is no need to take pot shots at who is more Satanic than the next guy. BECAUSE no one should care. As a Satanist, why should you give a fuck about what anyone says when you know the truth inside your own heart.

Cal, Please make up your mind, you contradict yourself.

"but the fact is that one either believes in a Theistic Satanism or doesnt.... There is either a literal Satan as an entity or not."

"Now of course, there can be varying degrees and interpretations to that... but its one of those things that either IS or ISNT... at least on some level."

So Cal, what are your own feelings?
Are you for a literal or figurative Satan in your life?

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#34436 - 01/23/10 04:11 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: Morgan]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I really don't get people who get a hard on for LaVey to the point of near deification of the man. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but the highest respect for what the man did, by giving a name to something that needed a name, but if he was secretly a jehovahs witness or a scientologist it wouldn't matter a WHIT as to what Satanism IS.

I laugh when I see yet another outward facing joker trying to turn Satanism inside out to fit their views because the idea of autodeification and all that comes with it is completely alien to them. If it's not the theists it's the post mortem sycophants that probably pray to LaVey for guidance when nobody is looking.

Such is life I suppose.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#34577 - 01/25/10 11:03 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: Morgan]
111Cal Offline
member


Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
LaVey had a major effect when he was ALIVE.
Once he died, it became open to speculation and personal interpretation.

The idea of what LaVey thought and felt inside his own heart, is anyone's guess at this point. If two of his closest friends can not agree upon what he felt, then maybe that itself speaks volumns. The back and forth banter has gone beyond what is really necessary.

Aquino = LITERAL SATAN, and everything that comes with it.
Jake = FIGURATIVE SATAN and everything that come with it.
They stand apart on this issue and never the twain shall meet.

There is no need to take pot shots at who is more Satanic than the next guy. BECAUSE no one should care. As a Satanist, why should you give a fuck about what anyone says when you know the truth inside your own heart.

Cal, Please make up your mind, you contradict yourself.

"but the fact is that one either believes in a Theistic Satanism or doesnt.... There is either a literal Satan as an entity or not."

"Now of course, there can be varying degrees and interpretations to that... but its one of those things that either IS or ISNT... at least on some level."

So Cal, what are your own feelings?
Are you for a literal or figurative Satan in your life?

Morgan


My feelings? Having been a CoS member for decades (although not ACTIVE since LaVey died) I have encountered a lot of people who did know LaVey early on and throughout his life. Personally, I am closer to the Aquino school of thought on the matter.... but not exactly. I am more for a literal "Satan" although not a single entity, but more of an omnipresent life force... that may or may not express itself as an entity at times. To be honest, most of my view points and most of my personality traits are more closely in tune with LaVey (post 75), but I also believe that LaVey most likely did, at some point believe in a literal Satan also... to what extent I am not certain.

I do not however,think that simply because we can never get a 100% positive answer that we should silence the debate. IN FACT I would say that there are those still alive who could shed some light on the subject. Yes Dr. Aquino and Jake are both vocal in their views and both knew the man well. But I think that if Diane LaVey/Hegarty and/or Karla LaVey were to take part in the discussion.... they could shine some light on the matter.

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#34580 - 01/26/10 12:14 AM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: 111Cal]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"But I think that if Diane LaVey/Hegarty and/or Karla LaVey were to take part in the discussion.... they could shine some light on the matter."

I honestly think that I have a better chance of winning the lottery than either of those two Ladies responding to this question.

Plus, in the end, I don't think it would change anything at all.

Morg
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#34594 - 01/26/10 07:37 AM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: Morgan]
111Cal Offline
member


Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
Actually, maybe not so far fetched.... we all know Karla LaVeys group has a link on this site, so its not so far fetched to think she might glance at it on occasion. AND I know that Stanton LaVey has viewed this site before... and since he and his grandmother Diane are very close, and since she has become a bit more active in the LaVey world again (she took part in an Anton LaVey art show last year and allowed her art of Antons to be included and has written several "letters to the editor" in recent years on the CoS and LaVey that have appeared in print.) So its possible that she has read it as well.

Still a longshot, but not impossible.... and since Diane was an uncredited co-author to the Satanic Bible and Rituals and very active in the initial set up, I think her views would hold some weight, were she to share them with us.

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#65844 - 04/01/12 04:06 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: 111Cal]
JayGraven Offline
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Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 5
Loc: California
Well going back to the original topic..

According to a documentary I saw a number of years ago on roman history, one of their leaders who was known as Nero aparently did alot of "evil" things, and they used a system (which I forgot the name of or how to do it) to break down names into a number. so Nero's name broke down to 666. Alot of the citizens of rome referred to Nero as the antichrist, Through word of mouth since then 666 has always been attributed with the antichrist. Of corse I could be wrong becuase I havent spent a whole lot of time finding this out.

The number for Satan is Actually 616

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#65846 - 04/01/12 05:54 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: JayGraven]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
We recently took this matter into question over in the Illuminati thread. Long story short, we can't know for sure whether or not the number was 666 or 616, as there is debatable scholastic evidence for both.

The politically-charged message of John's Apocalypse gives more weight to the Nero theory, although both forms Nero and Neron Caesar can be connected to either 666 or 616, so the question is not resolved. One should take modern correspondences of this number with much greater skepticism, considering how easy it is to make any numeric connection imaginable with the alteration of a couple letters.

I suggest you read up on the history of the Roman Empire and the birth of ecclesiastical Christianity if you want to get the full context of it all.

One should also note that, biblically speaking, 666 not the number of Satan per se. 666 is the number of the beast from the earth, who derives his authority from the beast from the sea, who in turn is commanded by the red dragon, Satan. There is a connection but it is important to note the difference between these figures to avoid confusion and get a clearer idea of the text.


Edited by The Zebu (04/01/12 05:59 PM)
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#65847 - 04/01/12 08:14 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: The Zebu]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
The Book of Revelation also claims that 666 is "the number of a man." (c13, vs 16-17, KJV)

This intriguing assertion may have its basis in Jewish numerology, gematria or notariquon which have little relation to the "New Age" Kabbalah of today.

The three sixes can, like all numbers, be played with ad infinitum. They can be added to make 18, which can then be added to reduce to 9, the final number before the decimal system of counting ends and restarts itself. This suggests Wo/Man is a creature eternally created, destroyed and reborn as the indestructible Yahweh makes them in its image. This cycle image is not to be confused with the Buddhist Wheel of Life. Jewish people are expected to stay dead for the most part; the religion holds no belief in reincarnation, although Elijah and Moses may return as prophets - Jesus was asked if he were one of them.).

In the Jewish alphabet, 9 is attributed to the letter Teth, the hieroglyph of which is a serpent (!). 18 is the number of Tzaddi, a fish-hook - that which reaches in/down and drags out a creature from the darkness of water.

It's all very interesting stuff and one can play happily with this stuff for hours or years. To make any assertion that "666" is The Devil and a Very Naughty Boy coming to get us in the Last Days is silly, Christian theology mixed with "The Omen". \:\)


Edited by felixgarnet (04/01/12 08:17 PM)
Edit Reason: Tidying up.
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"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#65857 - 04/02/12 04:04 AM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: felixgarnet]
Frumious Offline
member


Registered: 03/13/12
Posts: 102
Loc: New Jersey
By the way, Felix, as of 4:01 AM Eastrn Time on Monday, April 2nd, you have 663 posts. Three more and you better look up in the sky in case that Tzaddi fish-hook is coming down to snatch you heavenward from out the waters of darkness!
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#65864 - 04/02/12 01:45 PM Re: Who knows what evil lurks ..? [Re: Frumious]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
Indeed, Frumious, thank you! \:\)

Just bumping it to 664 by ruminating on the Tzaddi grabbing the Ichthys of the Piscean Age, exposing its short-comings and finishing it off . . .

I really should get out more.
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#82350 - 11/15/13 02:40 PM Re: Geraldo, it's all just symbolism. [Re: Jake999]
antikarmatomic Offline
BANNED
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Registered: 09/22/13
Posts: 3208
Loc: El Mundo
Rumor has it that the actual number was 616; but whatever.
Back to the subject - the only interesting thing about the number 666 is that it is the sum of integers 1 – 36 (1 + 2 + 3 … 36 = 666)

36 = “three sixes”… it’s about as “punny” as math gets. :p

As for this fixation on the number 9… ok sure 666 is divisible by 9 (666 / 9 =74).

The ONLY thing special about 9 is simply that it is the largest digit we can represent in a column using base 10 – switch to base 16 and none of its “magical properties" hold true

*Base 16 counts like this: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, C, D, E, F.

Just arbitrary squiggles to represent a quantity.

In base 10, oh sure the digits of any multiple of 9 add up to 9… but try that with base 16

The system breaks down miserably for digits larger than 99.

YET… try that same thing with “F” FF F+F = 1E. 1+E = F. Seems familiar?

Now 15 (F) is the new magic quantity.

What you are seeing has nothing to do with 9 itself, what you are witnessing are the mechanics of column counting… which is interesting in its own way. ;\)


Edited by antikarmatomic (11/15/13 02:49 PM)
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