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#34893 - 02/01/10 12:29 AM Re: Rite you are. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3892
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Hello, wall
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#34895 - 02/01/10 01:05 AM A first step into a larger universe ... [Re: Apion]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2575
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Apion
How does a personality operate without a "lens" (such as the physical body) to focus it into consensus reality? Sensory deprivation comes to mind on how the mind stops working smoothly without sensory input.

The physical senses are indeed "training wheels on a bicycle" to enable the psyche to become aware of itself by "bumping into things that it isn't". Noninitiates are content to let this bumper-car existence "define them", and don't worry, or bother beyond that. Initiation challenges you to discard the training wheels. As you do, you will experience the disorientation which results from having relied on them. That leads many to rush back to the wheels. Others continue into new universes, and that's what personal divinity is all about. But it is not at all a descent into madness, but rather, in Raghavan Iyer's words, coalescence into

 Originally Posted By: R.I.
... not the shadowy self or false egoity which merely reacts to external stimuli. Rather there is that Eye of Wisdom in every person which in deep sleep is fully awake and which has a translucent awareness of self-consciousness as pure, primordial light.

Sensory deprivation is a fascinating field; I am most familiar with the works of Dr. John Lilly in this area:

 Originally Posted By: M.A.A., Temple of Set Reading List
The Deep Self by John C. Lilly, M.D. NY: Warner Books #33-023, 1977. Lilly achieved prominence [or notoriety] as the principal proponent of, and experimentor with the sensory deprivation tank during the last two decades. This book summarizes and analyzes the findings of his earlier books and reports, and offers practical guidance concerning the construction and use of isolation tanks. Lilly, who along with his work was caricatured in the 1980 film Altered States, comments: "In the province of the mind, what one believes to be true either is true or becomes true within certain limits. These limits are to be found experientally and experimentally. When the limits are determined, it is found that they are further beliefs to be transcended. In the province of the mind, there are no limits. The body imposes definite limits."
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#34897 - 02/01/10 01:54 AM ... on Main Street! [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2575
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
I'm going to have to agree with Dan here. This shit is starting to get real old. Aquino, you are nothing but a shit disturber. You ass is still chapped about something that happened over 20 years ago. GET OVER IT. Maybe you are just scared of being forgotten so you are trying to convince people that you still hold any relevance. I must say that I am not sure that you ever did. You continue to blatantly mock members of this site - hiding behind your smileys and Star Wars references because you really have nothing to say. If anyone else were to continually mock "us" the way you do you can bet your ass they would be shown the door. Apparently people seem to think you are special and therefore allowed certain privileges. I, for one, do not agree. And if this post gets me in "trouble" then so be it; a man can only take so much.

Feel better now?

There is a difference between mockery and holding up mirrors, though sometimes the recipient may see the same image in both cases. He may get momentarily indignant or outright angry; the important thing is what [if anything] he learns once the initial shock is over. That either corrects or substantiates his position. Either way he is the better and stronger for it.

I have neither asked for nor [as far as I am aware] been given any "special privileges" on 600C. My ass has been handed to me on a plate in some discussions here, usually because of sincere differences in perspective and opinion. That's cool. As Freddy the Pig once observed, "If we knew everything beforehand, things wouldn't be much fun, would they?"
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#34899 - 02/01/10 02:17 AM Re: Rite you are. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
EvilDjinn Offline
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Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 31
I've seen this argument before, that if I don't believe in the objective existence of a separate being/consciousness called Satan then I am somehow not a Satanist.

I'm not opposed to the experience of this objective Other. However I have not had the experience, and have not yet seen the logic that would indicate His/Her/It's existence. That being said, Satanism (as defined in published Satanic literature like the Satanic Bible) perfectly encompasses who I am. It is as much my personality as my religion and philosophy.

So what then am I calling on when swinging a sword at a Baphomet? Not objective beings, daemons, Forms, etc. Well perhaps Forms, but maybe in a different way than has been used in this thread already. I find the creatures of the human mind, the demons of the underworld that exist in the psyche, to be potent enough that I put my "faith" in them when I use Ritual. Yes there is a kind of dialog between me and Them, especially during ritual experiences. But I don't see how they exist outside of my own mind. Or how my consciousness is not merely a product of physical processes that have evolved over millions of years. It's a weird thought, but it was an important turning point in my life when I confronted the world for what it was and didn't shrink from it.

In a way that was my form of initiation. "Crossing the Abyss" for me was looking at the world as the purely carnal (and sometimes horrible) place that it is and accepting it. It's something I think some atheists still have trouble doing, especially that ones that spend their time tirading against gods.

My experiences are no less magical simply because they are not being prompted by an external Satan. I don't see why Magic can exist only in the context of a god in the same way that I don't see why the universe can exist only in the context of a god.


Edited by EvilDjinn (02/01/10 02:18 AM)
Edit Reason: Bad English

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#34900 - 02/01/10 02:22 AM Re: A first step into a larger universe ... [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Apion Offline
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Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 18
Thanks for the reply.

 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

The physical senses are indeed "training wheels on a bicycle" to enable the psyche to become aware of itself by "bumping into things that it isn't".


I've read the section on the psyche in Black Magic and I came with the idea after reading it that the psyche is the ultimate identity of the individual. If one can keep retreating back to grasp one's essential identity through "bumping into things that it [the psyche] isn't", one can come to the realization that the Self (capital-S = distinction from the ego-self) isn't anything that can be experienced; we can ask the question, "Who is aware of this experience? I do, therefore I can't be that which I am experiencing." If we follow this a little further, how can the psyche become aware of itself (alas, "who knows about this thing called the psyche?")? It's an interesting conundrum.

 Quote:
Sensory deprivation is a fascinating field; I am most familiar with the works of Dr. John Lilly in this area.


So am I. Thank you for the reference though!

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#34901 - 02/01/10 02:31 AM Re: "Reality" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
Good, now all you have to do is to establish the actual limits of "reality" and how you can detect them. More often this is an arbitrary, self-limiting attitude.

These "limits of reality" are nothing more then the limits of the instruments used (ie, optical, sensory, scent,..).
It is easy to believe in something else. To show that something else is a whole other thing.

I wouldn't claim it is self-limiting. In the past 5 years I have learned to be critical of almost everything, yet that I should keep in mind that if A is being deconstructed that it may not implied for B,C,D,.. (even if it can be done most of the time). For those cases should be handled individually.

As for "self-limiting". Knowledge is a biscuit which should be taken slowly. You wouldn't teach a 3 year old the far limits of physics, isn't it? Self-limitation is being done by everyone, I would even say it is part of the primary instinct.
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#34902 - 02/01/10 02:41 AM All religions! - Roman Castevet [Re: Asmedious]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2575
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
I’m not sure which of Dr. Aquino’s categories I might fall under, since I tend to side 98 percent with Atheistic Satanism. That other 2 percent is a cautious curiosity of sorts.

That would make you an agnostic, which is the only really intelligent thing to be, until/unless you happen to meet a god face-to-face, as it were.

Most atheists are atheists "reactively": not because Atheism in itself has proven itself, but because the world's "theisms" (principally but not exclusively J/C/I) are such utter nonsense. The fact that for the last 2,000+ years people have been killing one another over this nonsense doesn't help things. Hence wise [and humanitarian] individuals tend to throw the entire subject into the garbage.

So to borrow a metaphor, I suppose you could say that an agnostic is an Atheist who hasn't been mugged yet [by theism].

 Quote:
The reason being, if anyone other then Dr. Aquino was making the statements that he makes, I would be able to dismiss them totally. However, I find him to be of very high intelligence, and someone who has achieved considerable success in life.

I appreciate the compliment, but ultimately the only thing that really makes a difference is what you yourself discover, reason, and/or realize. The First Beast said it best:

 Originally Posted By: Aleister Crowley, Confessions
I admit that my visions can never mean to other men as much as they do to me. I do not regret this. All I ask is that my results should convince seekers after truth that there is beyond doubt something worthwhile seeking, attainable by methods more or less like mine. I do not want to father a flock, to be the fetish of fools and fanatics, or the founder of a faith whose followers are content to echo my opinions. I want each man to cut his own way through the jungle.
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#34904 - 02/01/10 02:52 AM Now watch carefully ... [Re: Dimitri]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2575
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
These "limits of reality" are nothing more then the limits of the instruments used (ie, optical, sensory, scent,..).

Well, I think I have illustrated in various LBM-posts here just how fallible, deceptive, limited, and manipulative the physical senses are. They are used to jerk you around by everyone from stage magicians (benevolently) to politicians (not so benevolently).

"Science" is also a raging sea of selective, and often highly political and/or economic, data. The current bar-fights over abortion, global warming, economic crashes, etc. being cases in point.

None of this is to belittle your physical senses - just to encourage you to be all the more careful about trusting them too easily.
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#34906 - 02/01/10 03:26 AM Rite on! [Re: EvilDjinn]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2575
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: EvilDjinn
I've seen this argument before, that if I don't believe in the objective existence of a separate being/consciousness called Satan then I am somehow not a Satanist.

I'm not opposed to the experience of this objective Other. However I have not had the experience, and have not yet seen the logic that would indicate His/Her/It's existence. That being said, Satanism (as defined in published Satanic literature like the Satanic Bible) perfectly encompasses who I am. It is as much my personality as my religion and philosophy.

So what then am I calling on when swinging a sword at a Baphomet? Not objective beings, daemons, Forms, etc. Well perhaps Forms, but maybe in a different way than has been used in this thread already. I find the creatures of the human mind, the demons of the underworld that exist in the psyche, to be potent enough that I put my "faith" in them when I use Ritual. Yes there is a kind of dialog between me and Them, especially during ritual experiences. But I don't see how they exist outside of my own mind. Or how my consciousness is not merely a product of physical processes that have evolved over millions of years. It's a weird thought, but it was an important turning point in my life when I confronted the world for what it was and didn't shrink from it.

In a way that was my form of initiation. "Crossing the Abyss" for me was looking at the world as the purely carnal (and sometimes horrible) place that it is and accepting it. It's something I think some atheists still have trouble doing, especially that ones that spend their time tirading against gods.

My experiences are no less magical simply because they are not being prompted by an external Satan. I don't see why Magic can exist only in the context of a god in the same way that I don't see why the universe can exist only in the context of a god.

This post is so savvy that I've quoted the whole thing in the hopes that anyone who missed it the first time will read it here.

Just remember that the concept of That which is the Prince of Darkness is much older than 1966 [indeed much older and more multifaceted than the "Satan" of J/C/I], and that the SB was a snapshot of Anton's thinking as of 1969, as sanitized for commercial publication. Think of it as a sort of "call to arms" in the culture and society of that time.

As for what's going on in your head during a GBM ritual, the secret of any effective ritual chamber is that it is a mirror and an amplifier. Thus it's a key to a door, but that door is in your mind.

This is of course a whole different thing than a LBM ritual (such as the Missa Solemnis), or a purely illustrative ritual (such as the Tierdrama).
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Michael A. Aquino

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#34908 - 02/01/10 03:31 AM Re: Now watch carefully ... [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
Well, I think I have illustrated in various LBM-posts here just how fallible, deceptive, limited, and manipulative the physical senses are.

That's why I also mentioned "instruments used" ;\) .

 Quote:
"Science" is also a raging sea of selective, and often highly political and/or economic, data. The current bar-fights over abortion, global warming, economic crashes, etc. being cases in point.

Science is the art of knowing, investigation and study of facts and actions/events in nature.
I have to admit that modern science is being sponsored by politics, for the sole reason that those who are in power have the money to sponsor the somewhat costly experiments and investigations. The good times of doing "cheap" investigations is over. Science has evolved to extreme surrondings. It investigates the smallest bricks of the universe, it is trying to look billions of lightyears from the earth, ... all too costly.

Let me point out that:
- the ability and knowledge to perform abortion is scientific, BUT the actual action is pure politics and "leisure" (I.E. a personal choice purely dependant on those who want abortion and those performing the abortion).
- Global warming is interesting for those in ecology and environmental sciences, the whole video of Al Gore is pure politics on the other hand. An intelligent person has no problem showing the phallacies within the whole subject. ( Sadly enough, upon doing so you are considered a climate critic and therfor your views/findings are being dismissed).
Global warming is a fact, the influence of man on GW can be questioned. GW now, apart from a political statement, is an economical factor ( emission trading ) . The knowledge and mechanisms of GW are science, the politics around it aren't.

 Quote:

None of this is to belittle your physical senses - just to encourage you to be all the more careful about trusting them too easily.

Without senses a wise man would have nothing to trust. There is still the ability to enhance the senses.


Edited by Dimitri (02/01/10 04:25 AM)
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#34909 - 02/01/10 05:04 AM Re: Rite on! [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Baron dHolbach Offline
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Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
This post is so savvy that I've quoted the whole thing in the hopes that anyone who missed it the first time will read it here.


Wait. EvilDjinn was saying, unless I grossly misunderstood, that the human mind is a function of the human brain, which evolved over millions of years of mutation and natural selection; and that demons and other diabolical creatures, including Set, including Satan, exist and have their power exclusively in the human mind. Do you agree with what I think EvilDjinn was saying? If so, then a lot of the debate can come to an end, since many of us, myself included, agree completely with what I think EvilDjinn was saying.
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#34929 - 02/01/10 12:42 PM ... and I'm going to FIND the fucker! [Re: Baron dHolbach]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2575
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Baron dHolbach
Wait. EvilDjinn was saying, unless I grossly misunderstood, that the human mind is a function of the human brain, which evolved over millions of years of mutation and natural selection; and that demons and other diabolical creatures, including Set, including Satan, exist and have their power exclusively in the human mind. Do you agree with what I think EvilDjinn was saying? If so, then a lot of the debate can come to an end, since many of us, myself included, agree completely with what I think EvilDjinn was saying.

Perception of the neteru requires both the intelligence and the detached point of perspective to do so, hence in that sense the neteru can be considered to have mental manifestation; their function, as Forms of "nature" is of course in the physical/objective universe outside of the mind.

The one exception to this is Set, as the neter/Form of isolate consciousness itself. In this sense to be aware of your own distinct & separate identity is simultaneously to be aware of Set [or, more primitively, "Satan"]. The only question is whether you're deliberately & sufficiently introspective enough to realize & acknowledge this.

In this charming sense, like the Kinks' "Everybody's in Show Biz" song, every self-conscious, sentient being is a Setian/Satanist. You can't help it. Conventional religions exist to prey upon people's fear of this "great unknown" within them, to sell them grace, penance, punishment, etc. for it - which is about as effective as the jumping-jacks-in-the-snow that Anton prescribed for the equally-frightening Nocturnal Lurker.

All of this is why discussions about the existence of Set, or in 600C vernacular Satan, always strike me as tautologically funny. But then human beings are a very funny species.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#34933 - 02/01/10 01:10 PM What happened to my wallet? [Re: Dimitri]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2575
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
That's why I also mentioned "instruments used" ;\) .

See the thread on "Mad Labs" for particularly fun [and of course reliable] such instruments. I am also reminded of ASLV's "Madness of Andelsprutz" ritual, in which the most-insane [thereby suitable for release to society] asylum inmate is provided with "a magnifying glass to detect imperfections, and a can of black spray paint to instantly cover up inconvenient imperfections".

 Quote:
Without senses a wise man would have nothing to trust.

That's why Uri Geller and the "remote viewers" made such fools of the "scientific testing" Stanford Research Institute. Trust nothing and no one. Except me and Indiana Jones, of course.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#34934 - 02/01/10 01:26 PM See you at the Chestnut Tree Cafe. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2575
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
So, according to you, my mind is the manifestation of Set in the physical world? Fine. I'll just call it plain ol' Satan if that's all right with you. My mind has a vast expanse of unplowed ground, and there is always more of it to explore. To this extent, yes, I can concede that Set has notional existence. My mind is always expanding and exploring new thoughts and ideas, and to have the mental guts to look reality in the eye, no matter how cruel and unimaginable it is, is not common.

By George he's got it.

 Quote:
I still don't see him appear before me. Maybe that's because I'm not intelligent or introspective enough.

Not at all ... Room 101.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#34935 - 02/01/10 01:38 PM Re: ... and I'm going to FIND the fucker! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
I still don't see him appear before me.


I should probably stand aside and let the good Dr. answer this one himself... but I haven't gotten the impression that he's ever said Set materializes or has materialized.

Granted, I'm still reading the ToS book but this line makes things pretty clear to me:
 Originally Posted By: Aquino in ToS

I said there was nothing overtly sensational, supernatural or melodramatic about the Book of Coming Forth by Night working. I simply sat down and wrote it. It was not dictated to me by a materialized Egyptian god, nor did the words burn themselves into the pages like the fabled Hebrew Ten Commandments. The thoughts were “comfortable ” ones, comprehensible to me within my preexisting frames of reference.


Also of interest is this one:
 Originally Posted By: Aquino in ToS
What, then, distinguished the Book of Coming Forth by Night from a mere meditation or exercise in creative writing? No more and No less than a sensation I had then and a conviction ever since, that something beyond Michael Aquino was generating it.


Unless Dr. Aquino has said something here or elsewhere to the effect that a materialized Set has commanded his actions I don't see, really, what all the hubbub is about.

No one knows for certain what consciousness is or from whence it comes. Based on the books I've seen him recommend, and based on his writings, I'd say that the ToS is representative of a quest for truth for Aquino that happens to resonate with some others. Who cares what images he uses to get there?

I think it's a valid statement to say that most Satanists would agree that there does appear to be some sort of "dark and balancing" force in nature. Ritual is simply an attempt to qualify, quantify and test whatever this may be (as well as to serve the self). To my understanding what we 'know' as men is vastly outweighed by what we don't know.

One guy's quest for understanding doesn't bother me much. I find Aquino to be a fount of knowledge even if I haven't yet proven to myself that he's on to something. In fact, I've found some truth in the ToS's teachings as I've found some truths in Satanism.

I take my hat off to anyone who genuinely goes after answers to the best of their own abilities. If someone were to put all their thoughts in a box and never re examine them I'd say that they weren't people of the ilk I've encountered here.

Went a little tangential there... work awaits.


Edited by Fnord (02/01/10 02:03 PM)
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