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#117 - 09/04/07 11:31 PM Fundamentalist Satanists
Meq Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
From a member of satannet.com, the CoS forum:

"Satanists agree with -EVERYTHING- in the Satanic Bible. We do not need convincing or discussion. We just do. Agreeing with the Satanic Bible makes us Satanists. If you disagree with any part of the Satanic Bible (including and highlighted by Eleven Satanic Rules of Earth, Nine Satanic Statements, or Nine Satanic Sins) you are not a Satanist. Sorry, if you wanted the title but no Satanist needs to pick and choose what to agree with."

This is fucking insane.
Since when did LaVey claim divine inspiration and infallibility?

This approach makes being a Satanist a matter of dogmatic belief in a book (as opposed to, for example, real life achievements). It is not much different to the Christian fundies, just with a different Bible.
Belief, to these 'Satanists', may not get you salvation - but it guarantees them a place among the 'elite'.
Their elite status is 'proven' to them as they read TSB and resonate with it, on the basis that their beliefs make them a Satanist - and therefore, a 'natural born elite'...
Ego masturbation.


This degeneration of Satanism is similar to what happened with Christianity.
Christian Gnostics believed that being a member of the elite class required gnosis, spiritual enlightenment brought about through one's individual achievement.
Later Christians (especially Protestants) introduced the absurd idea that faith alone guarantees salvation (and thus membership in the 'elite' saved class), with 'faith' interpreted as belief in propositions written in a supposedly infallible 'holy book'.

Although Satanists usually seek hedonism and achievement over spiritual enlightenment, there are definite values and ideals a Satanist seeks to actualise (at least for commonly accepted definitions of Satanism - I'm not going to squabble over other definitions here).
If Satanists are born not made, what makes a person Satanic is their natural predisposition to practice those ideals, and NOT a natural predisposition to resonate with every word of 'Dr. Lavey''s writings.
The latter position (common on satannet.com) is a chickenshit fundamentalist Protestant Satanism, and it is also doublethink to consider this position compatible with independence of thought.
If one's status as a Satanist is dependent on one resonating with every word of TSB (as many on that forum suggest), then thinking stagnates. To allow one's thinking to progress and develop through life, to develop the ideas and philosophy further, to build on LaVey's work while not accepting every word, would in this mindset not be Satanic.
What fundamentalist book-worshipping bullshit.

It is also hypocritical for many of these 'Satanists' to claim elite status for themselves purely on the basis that they agree with every word of TSB (despite their often paultry achievements in life), and deny others that status (despite their much higher achievement) because they question the infallibility of Dr LaVey's Rule Of The Earth #4.

Like in every religion and philosophy, the masses end up eating the menu.

Doh!

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#118 - 09/05/07 12:14 AM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: Meq]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
I thought the CoS actively maintained a game of bullshit and hypocrisy so that their CoS soldiers that didn't know any better stuck up for the inner circle who actively were scamming everyone of a $100 membership and fuck knows what else for their own financial end? Duping the sheep and the stupid into thinking they were something special when in fact they were just stupid sheep.

Or was Ole Wolf just a pipe dream had by Ta2zz last Thursday when he dreamt this site of original thought and discussion had reappeared?

Zephyr
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#123 - 09/05/07 02:16 AM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: ZephyrGirl]
darkangel Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 16
Loc: CT
CoS is stupid anyways...organized religion for a religion that doesn't believe in organized religion lol....

Anyways that is bullshit because the Satanic Bible by LaVey is more of a guideline of how to live and the individual takes that and adds their own morals and beliefs to it. He never said to believe every single word in the book..it was just written for readers to agree and disagree and add their own interpretation of it. Be your own god and do what you enjoy, not worship every sentence and belief every punctuation mark in the book....

I fully agree with you Paula.
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#124 - 09/05/07 05:19 AM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: darkangel]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Ahh crap, I'm much too non-sober to do this, but...

The word "Satanist" is derived from Mister, not "Doctor" LaVey's book. I think we've all read it at this point, and it is almost required reading for anyone considering themselves "Satanist". We could derail and go into a long topic of historical "Satanists", but this would only aggravate the situation. In addition, it would address the notion that these historical peoples gathered their thoughts and "beliefs" in a willingness to accept "Satan" as their muse. Romantic as that is, I can't be sure of it's historical accuracy.

However, if we are to accept that "Mr." LaVey created a "religion" of sorts, called "Satanism", then they (CoS) are entirely correct. It is their "religion", and it is their first right. That being true, "We" are the Protestant Satanists. And, such as it is, "We" are just as ridiculous as they are.

Personally, I like the term "Satanist", maybe because I agree with Xear... it is taboo. That's not what he said, I know, but I'm not going to quote verbatim here...

If we call ourselves "Satanist", then we must either accept that LaVey had "something" to do with it, or try to pull the ol' "Traditional" approach... either way the word was there.

Semantics again...
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#125 - 09/05/07 09:44 AM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: daevid777]
97and107 Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 197
Loc: Olympia, WA. USA
The Church of Satan has been getting a little more annoying lately. I generally just ignore their goons. I like Lavey, but I've never read the Satanic Bible. I considered myself a Satanist before I had ever heard of them. Sounds strange, I suppose. Well Satan's been around since before Lavey discovered him. There are other avenues of 'discovering' Satanism.

We could rephrase this, Paula, replacing a few key words:


"Christians agree with -EVERYTHING- in the Holy Bible. We do not need convincing or discussion. We just do. Agreeing with the Holy Bible makes us Christians. If you disagree with any part of the Holy Bible (including and highlighted by the Ten Commandments) you are not a Christian. Sorry, if you wanted the title but no Christian needs to pick and choose what to agree with."

Sound more disgusting yet? It shouldn't. Both are equally abhorrent.

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#127 - 09/05/07 01:07 PM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: Meq]
Lisa Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 7
Loc: Ontario / SK / Los Angeles
The premise of the book is that these ideas are ones you already had and agree with. LaVey just compiled them together and gave it a name. Doesn't it make little sense to call yourself a Satanist and disagree with the philosophy? (I'm assuming this forum is still primarily non-spiritual/no-nonsense, and I'm not currently humoring other claims to Satanism as I understand why the CoS doesn't acknowledge any other forms.)

 Quote:
I thought the CoS actively maintained a game of bullshit and hypocrisy so that their CoS soldiers that didn't know any better stuck up for the inner circle who actively were scamming everyone of a $100 membership and fuck knows what else for their own financial end?

For me, I can't understand the money complaint. $100-$200 isn't a grand lot of money to cry about. Most people that whine about it claim they never wanted to join to begin with, and I have no problem with people that can throw that kind of money around without expecting anything. I might even assume they have some success in life if money isn't an issue to them.

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#129 - 09/05/07 04:07 PM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: Lisa]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
The thing that bothers me the most about this topic are the people that bitch about the CoS. Say whatever you want about them, they have done one thing which few others have...they've created and maintained a counter-cultural organization where people with similar ideals can congregate and be a part of something larger than themselves. In addition, they've gained incredible notoriety, published many books in several languages, and have maintained a very successful business. What other "satanic" organizations can say that?

Yes, yes. We all know what kind of crackpots the CoS folks can be. However, I give them full marks for their achievements thus far.
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#131 - 09/05/07 06:43 PM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: Meq]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1469
Loc: New York
I lost considerable respect for the CoS, after learning that several of its high ranking officials, are playing the bullshit evangelical card, to the lost black sheep, and have created the Temple of the Vampire.

For people who claim to follow common sense, it shows quite a bit of hypocrisy. Although, at the same time, there really isn’t anything wrong with milking for gain, those that want something supernatural in their lives, and are willing to spend money thinking that they are “special.”

Non of the present leadership of the CoS, comes even close to the kind of charisma and dark charm that Dr. LaVey had.

They’re just milking a dead cow for all it’s worth.

I find it disgraceful, that a bunch of “elite” people, couldn’t even come together to save a tiny piece of real-estate, known as the “Black House.”
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#132 - 09/05/07 06:50 PM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: Lisa]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
Maybe the problem for people though isn't the money itself, but rather that they feel 'duped' into beleiving that an organisation holds their beleifs when in fact it doesn't.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't feel like that, I have had little to do with Satanism other than this site and a couple of 'local' Satanists I've met, it's just that I recently came across the essay 'The Emporers New Religion' By Ole Wolf and found it to be a fairly compelling argument against the CoS.

In saying that however one would assume that Ole Wolf himself has something against them and on digging further I found that he sure did. But was his complaint really about $100 or was it about feeling used?

And if he was used, was he used purposefully or is it a case of we all see the same thing from a different angle and that angle may well be the Truth to us all.

I do know one thing. I personally have gotten involved in this site (now and in the past), to challange myself when it comes to seeing and accepting what actually IS rather than what I would like to believe. I'm now starting wonder if maybe Satanism isn't so much about the truth at all, but rather about making people feel they are much greater than they are.

Would this mean I was sucked in by vanity and self guile, two of the very thngs that TSB renounces and yet uses as a seductress?

Probably! Being told how clever I am has always been a way to my heart and yet smarts don't really have anything to do with getting TSB. It's common sense enough that you are going to agree with SOME OF IT and LaVey was clever enough to use that hook but tell you to discard what you don't believe.

So it's pretty much a win win situation. Why do you think there IS so much varied interpretation?

Maybe, Xear could start up a section that actually studies and discects TSB and see what a whole bunch of us people that like to think we are clever can disagree on. I bet there would be heaps.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#147 - 09/06/07 12:06 PM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: Meq]
woreloque Offline
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Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 8
LaVey described human nature. Everyone is a Satanist to begin with until they are progressively talked out of it by the mainstream belief systems.
The most Satanic are the most successful as they can exploit human nature for what it is. Things can always be sold with sex.
LaVey's recognition of powerful figures and positions in history illustrates the point. Basil Zaharoff for one.
Religious, political and business leaders are the most Satanic in practice and principle.
Everyone is a Satanist until they get scared and run to Jesus, ad nauseum.

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#150 - 09/06/07 12:55 PM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: daevid777]
blackdragon31560 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Hell Paso, TX
i would have to agree, this is something I’ve seen first hand when meeting other Satanists. There unwillingness to question LaVey or TSB even remotely. i agree Paula, daevid777 and most of the replies, to me the term "Satanist" mean nothing more then "Natural Human Animal" to me it's doesn't mean you will become elite, if you believe in such trivial labels.


 Quote:
"However, if we are to accept that "Mr." LaVey created a "religion" of sorts, called "Satanism", then they (CoS) are entirely correct"


I never believed LaVey made a religion, if you read the right books and simply live life, you would some of the same conclusions. To me the TSB and LaVey are nothing holy as CoS would have you believe. TSB is what I believe for the most pasrt, is what people will come to believe naturally, though life experience. I thought of joining the CoS (years ago) , until i saw all the hypocrisy. I would still like to see some unity, among satanist, not fallowing. which i think the site does in some way.

oh one more thing ZephyrGirl Satanism, to me isn't anything you have to do, its simply the way you live your life.
_________________________
Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil.

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#155 - 09/06/07 07:01 PM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: blackdragon31560]
Meq Offline
Banned
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
From dictionary.com:

Sa·tan·ism /ˈseɪtnˌɪzəm/ –noun
1. the worship of Satan or the powers of evil.
2. a travesty of Christian rites in which Satan is worshiped.
3. diabolical or satanic disposition, behavior, or activity.

sa·tan·ic /səˈtænɪk/ -adjective
1. of Satan.
2. characteristic of or befitting Satan; extremely wicked; devillike; diabolical.

This is not, of course, how modern Satanists define the terms. LaVey really introduced the modern symbolic definition of Satanism and Satan (which was rejected by the ToS in favour of the dictionary definition, with Satan defined as Set).

However, other people have kept the symbolic use of the term 'Satanism' (popularised by LaVey) while diverging from LaVey's original philosophy as outlined in TSB.
And why not. This is how ideas grow and develop.

LaVey himself developed ideas from Nietzsche, Crowley, Rand, Redbeard and others, while rejecting many of the ideas of his predecessors - yet the CoS has no problem in claiming a philosophical heritage from these thinkers.

Of course, the more fundamentalist LaVeyans get pretty pissed off by anyone who defines themselves as a (symbolic) Satanist yet disagrees with anything LaVey wrote.

It has always been the strategy of closed-minded groups to claim the exclusive right to define terms to suit their agendas - just as many fundamentalist Christians claim that a person has no right to call themselves a Christian unless they fully accept that Mahatma Gandhi is being roasted in a lake of fire for all eternity by a God of love.

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#183 - 09/08/07 07:36 PM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: Meq]
Asmodeus Xaxam Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/08/07
Posts: 17
Loc: Somerville TX. USA
Im disturbed to see that so many people on this site admittingly have not read the STB. If you'r going to comment on things. You really should have some kind of grip on what you'r talking about.

I have the Satanic Bible in e-book. It's a pdf. file. All you need is adobe reader. I will be more then happy to provide anyone who wants a copy with one at no charge. Just contact me on messenger or by e-mail.

-X
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-X

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#187 - 09/08/07 10:00 PM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: Asmodeus Xaxam]
Nemesis Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I don't think there is anyone on this forum who have not read The Satanic Bible. We've just progressed beyond the starting point it gave us. It was more like an information brochure, to get us thinking and find other paths to follow/start.
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#198 - 09/09/07 10:39 PM Re: Fundamentalist Satanists [Re: Nemesis]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
I think he might be talking about 97and107 saying that she'd never read it. However, his huge exageration on the amount of people "openly admitting" that they had never read it, led me to decide that he wasn't actually worth replying to.

Zeph

PS Have you seen Mel around since the site went back live?
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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