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#36708 - 03/18/10 01:03 PM The secret is out. [Re: Meq]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Meq
So is Set an actual anthropomorphic being which has similar emotions to humans (such as dismay and surprise), or an impersonal Platonic Form?

Neither - he's a Marvel Comics superhero.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#36712 - 03/18/10 02:34 PM Re: The secret is out. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
 Originally Posted By: Meq
So is Set an actual anthropomorphic being which has similar emotions to humans (such as dismay and surprise), or an impersonal Platonic Form?

Neither - he's a Marvel Comics superhero.

Or in other words, a cartoon.
As all anthropomorphic feeling and emotional deities ultimately are:
The familiar knowable human form projected onto an ultimately unknowable, impersonal and indifferent universe. A very human fallacy "we" have been committing for many thousands of years.

Today, to take such a deity's emotional side as anything more than a symbol or metaphor requires quite the Kierkegaardian leap of faith - together with what Kierkegaard described as a "crucifixion of the intellect". I'll pass. ;\)

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#36717 - 03/18/10 04:52 PM The Passion of Meq [Re: Meq]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Meq
As all anthropomorphic feeling and emotional deities ultimately are:
The familiar knowable human form projected onto an ultimately unknowable, impersonal and indifferent universe. A very human fallacy "we" have been committing for many thousands of years. Today, to take such a deity's emotional side as anything more than a symbol or metaphor requires quite the Kierkegaardian leap of faith - together with what Kierkegaard described as a "crucifixion of the intellect". I'll pass. ;\)

Meq, your response brought to mind this from my mother's childhood musings Pegasus in Pinfeathers:

 Originally Posted By: Betty Ford
FORCED ENTRANCE

There came a time when they were not content
To shriek against the portals and the shrine.
They crushed the silver gates, and in they went,
Hot-handed, on a search for the Divine.

And the white portals opened ceaselessly,
And the great purple curtains flapped and fell,
And the great mass of people swept to see
Naked Untruth, but how they could not tell.

Still they found nothing godlike, but a throne
Empty and time-worn, in an empty hall,
And a white heap of manuscripts, alone,
And the Sun’s rays that fell, nor ceased to fall.

And, in one sheltered crevass they went by,
A flight of stairs that wound into the sky.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#36729 - 03/18/10 10:04 PM Crimespeak! [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
MawhrinSkel has warned that responses in rhyme
Are inappropriate in this forum at any t***.
But since I can no longer delete "Forced Entrance",
I must ask readers to forget every single sent****.

While this may leave poor Meq in doubt
As to the theological implications of his p***,
The prevalence of prose upon this board
Must not be compromised or ign****.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#36754 - 03/19/10 10:13 AM Re: The secret is out. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 860
Loc: Nashville
Dr. Aquino, thank you for answering my questions. Although I have not been swayed from my prior position regarding Set, I do have a clearer understanding of your thoughts on the matter.

I’m sure you’ve grown quite tired over the years of arguing the existence of Set - hence your sarcastic “superhero” response. However, I’m sure you also understand that there’s no getting around it, that the subject will continue to rear its ugly head throughout your life. It is, to use a Christian analogy, your cross to bear.

With regard to the Temple’s initiatory process, it is true that I*’s and II*’s are not expected or required to believe in Set. However, the Priests and Priestesses who recognize them as such DO believe in him. It seems likely that the Priesthood’s acknowledgement of and perceived consecration by Set would affect their judgment and thus overshadow the recognition process.
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#36762 - 03/19/10 02:10 PM Re: Crimespeak! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
Curious mixture of iambs and trochees. End rhyme poetry is generally held as inferior to even free verse, since the only claim to poetic artistry lies in the harmonization of two contrasting words appearing at the end of each line.

I would certainly agree that this forum's banning of my poetry would be a merciful blessing to all readers. However I must with some righteous indignation deny that my "Crimespeak!" post above could by any stretch of demented imagination be called a poem.

 Quote:
Now, your mother produced a quite nice poem, but it doesn't need a home here. I think it's nice poem, and I'll read it.

Another Klein bottle phenomenon: How could you judge it "quite nice" if you haven't read it yet? Besides, Mom wrote it for Meq, not for you.

 Quote:
But here's the point: Not here. You are quite adept in both the rules of grammar and in constructing an argument, both abilities of which you've availed yourself in the past. In fact, few can match you in this regard. You wouldn't break those rules, now would you?

Perish the thought. And I am indeed honored to have my humble writing efforts praised by my betters.

 Quote:
Please don't break this either. If you need to, I would be most gratified if you could do so in PM.

I always enjoy gratifying those who wish it.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#36763 - 03/19/10 02:35 PM Re: The secret is out. [Re: William Wright]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
I’m sure you’ve grown quite tired over the years of arguing the existence of Set - hence your sarcastic “superhero” response.

Not tired in any disrespectful sense, because anyone asserting direct contact with a metaphysical intelligence must expect this. Moses doubtless had the same problem explaining his conversation with a bush.

As for my response to Meq in this case, I thought he was due for a friendly whoopie cushion, that's all. ;\)

 Quote:
However, I’m sure you also understand that there’s no getting around it, that the subject will continue to rear its ugly head throughout your life. It is, to use a Christian analogy, your cross to bear.

Well, Pentagram anyway. But that's why I'm writing The Temple of Set: to try to address such questions as thoroughly and integrally as I can. The Church of Satan was an attempt to do much the same thing for my experiences in that context.

I think it is important to note that the Temple of Set, both past and present, has served its purpose not because of my ideas and experiences, but even more because of those of the thousands of Setians who have found it to enhance their own initiation. Ask every Setian about Set and you will get an answer reflective of his or her unique consciousness & perception. And I am impressed by this; indeed I would feel there to be something fundamentally wrong with the Temple if Setians were just content to echo or trust in my own nœsis. In that case we would indeed be nothing but another variation of the profane religions.

 Quote:
With regard to the Temple’s initiatory process, it is true that I*’s and II*’s are not expected or required to believe in Set. However, the Priests and Priestesses who recognize them as such DO believe in him. It seems likely that the Priesthood’s acknowledgement of and perceived consecration by Set would affect their judgment and thus overshadow the recognition process.

I see no reason why it should, not to my knowledge has any Setian I° or Adept II° voiced such a concern. Indeed it is the Priesthood's realization of the distinction between the II° and the III° that enables it not to blur the two.

Recognition as a Setian I° is a judgment of sincerity and potential. Recognition a an Adept II° is a judgment of ethics, skills, and their combined application. You do not need to know how to build a bicycle, or who built it, to become an expert at riding it.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#36770 - 03/19/10 04:46 PM Re: How to kick ass! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
AND, although I really don't need to, but I will because it bears noting, that there's a fairly good reason, to my mind, why poetry gets the thumbs down here.

Simply put, Robert Frost, most of us AIN'T.

And for every Kubla Khan ever written, there are a million teenage angst-ridden "moon, June, spoon" poems, or deeply "satanic" epics with prerequisite death and devil pageantry by black lipped and clawed gothic masters who've analyzed the intricacies of the world and beyond at the tender age of 12.

I'm not saying that there's anything WRONG with good poetry, and I have to admit that I'm a fan of GOOD poetry... my mind even runs to connecting lyrics from songs to occasions in my life ("We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in school...") BUT who in the hell wants to plod through post after post of Iambic Pentameters or Dactylic Hexameters?

Forums are CHEAP... read pretty much free... in a lot or places. All you need is to sign up at one of the sites and build one. That takes a couple of minutes, and you can post just about whatever you want, as long as it falls within the guidelines of the forum's host provider. One COULD quite easily have a "Satanic Poet's Corner" up and running in a matter of minutes that would thrive or dive on its own merits.

But for sites that are owned and paid for, like this one, Dark Ryde, LTTD, and others, it's pretty much the province of the owner to decide what is the acceptable mode of posting and content allowed. It's the golden rule. "He who has the gold makes the rules." Here, the rule is set at no poetry. Same at Dark Ryde. Dunno about other places... boils down to having enough respect for the author of the feast to respect his wishes.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#36773 - 03/19/10 06:14 PM Don' throw me in dat briar patch! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
Now, I am by no means a psyops operative on par with the esteemed Dr. Aquino. Indeed, I would judge his abilities to be far superior to mine in any number of fields. Even so, I can recognize manipulation (LBM) when I see it.

The first thing you need to do is identify your opponent's weak spot. You can do this by trying any number of emotional stimuli. In Satanists, pride and a sense of aesthetics are the primary targets. Irony, sarcasm and cheap shots are great weapons in this regard, and the doctor wields these weapons like a surgeon wields a scalpel. I am in awe.

As much as I would like to take [dis]credit for some mustache-twirling zinger here, I guess I am missing something. I unthinkingly quoted a muse by my mother (aged 12) that seemed pertinent to Meq's previous, then acknowledged my error since I was now-unable to delete the outrage. No PSYOP involved; why should there be?

 Quote:
Poetry is one of the most innocuous of weapons, chiefly because it creates an emotional response and passes itself off as an intellectual one.

This is rather a startling statement: Do you really contend that all poetry is an "emotional weapon" and devoid of any intellectual content or merit? [Or, contrastingly, that prose is insulated from both of these perils simply because of its eschew of rhythm & rhyme?] Was your English teacher by any chance named Madam Mim?

 Quote:
I am by no means offended by the doctor's statements, but rather I find myself marvelling at how adroitly he managed to turn a simple warning about poetry into an indictment about the fundamental wrongness of our philosophical stances. Everybody should take notes. This is how you fight.



 Quote:
Feel free to carry this indictment further. Anyone who listens is free to do so. No poetry will be allowed regardless.

Poetry is crimespeak. Crimespeak is thoughtcrime. I love Big Brother.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#36774 - 03/19/10 06:43 PM Poetry: The "Devil" of 600C? [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
AND, although I really don't need to, but I will because it bears noting, that there's a fairly good reason, to my mind, why poetry gets the thumbs down here. Simply put, Robert Frost, most of us AIN'T.

Probably [and definitely in my case] true, but then some of the prose here isn't exactly Shakespeare either, so ..? It is just as easy to ignore one as the other. And if you preemptively blot it all out, well, there goes the baby with the bathwater. Maybe lots of babies.

 Quote:
And for every Kubla Khan ever written, there are a million teenage angst-ridden "moon, June, spoon" poems, or deeply "satanic" epics with prerequisite death and devil pageantry by black lipped and clawed gothic masters who've analyzed the intricacies of the world and beyond at the tender age of 12.

Coincidentally that was the average age at which my mother wrote Pegasus in Pinfeathers. Perhaps not all 12-year-olds are quite so quickly dismissible?

 Quote:
... who in the hell wants to plod through post after post of Iambic Pentameters or Dactylic Hexameters?

So skip them.

 Quote:
Forums are CHEAP... read pretty much free... in a lot or places. All you need is to sign up at one of the sites and build one. That takes a couple of minutes, and you can post just about whatever you want, as long as it falls within the guidelines of the forum's host provider. One COULD quite easily have a "Satanic Poet's Corner" up and running in a matter of minutes that would thrive or dive on its own merits.

But for sites that are owned and paid for, like this one, Dark Ryde, LTTD, and others, it's pretty much the province of the owner to decide what is the acceptable mode of posting and content allowed. It's the golden rule. "He who has the gold makes the rules." Here, the rule is set at no poetry. Same at Dark Ryde. Dunno about other places... boils down to having enough respect for the author of the feast to respect his wishes.

Point taken, but in the case of a forum which holds itself to be a/the standard-bearer for a larger, more general community of interest, there is presumably something of a commensurate, implied responsibility beyond the mere personal whims or prejudice of the owner. This is certainly a grey area with no easy or facile resolutions; but I would think that generally any medium which styles itself "Satanic" would want to err against, not towards censorship.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#36776 - 03/19/10 07:23 PM Re: Poetry: The "Devil" of 600C? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
This is certainly a grey area with no easy or facile resolutions; but I would think that generally any medium which styles itself "Satanic" would want to err against, not towards censorship.


Non inclusion is not censorship. It's simply categorical preference. You've proven yourself that you can say just about anything you want to say here... being restricted from saying it in verse is no different than the site's policy that the accepted language of posts is in English. Censorship? No. Continuitous? Yes.

Maw could be posting in Norwegian, Meq in some Cockney dialect, Diavolo and Dimitri in French or whatever the heck they're speaking in Belgium these days, and at least a half dozen other languages by members on the boards. Free flowing and organic, maybe, but hardly more than a cacaphony of linguistic babble.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#36777 - 03/19/10 07:26 PM Re: Poetry: The "Devil" of 600C? [Re: Jake999]
Noctuary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
Jesus Christ. How many fucking posts are there going to be here about don't post poetry? I would call this passive aggressive. But I can't even find the aggressive part. No poetry. Move on. I'd like to once again read about the topic at hand. Sometimes people talk way too much to say one simple sentence.
_________________________
Devils speak of the way in which she'll manifest

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#36783 - 03/19/10 10:37 PM Re: Poetry: The "Devil" of 600C? [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Non inclusion is not censorship. It's simply categorical preference.

Um, Jake, I'm supposed to be the PSYOPer here. Remember when all those dastardly "terrorists" were "freedom fighters" (if on our side) or "guerrillas" (if on Che's side)?

 Quote:
You've proven yourself that you can say just about anything you want to say here... being restricted from saying it in verse is no different than the site's policy that the accepted language of posts is in English.

Indeed I would also have no objection to someone posting auf deutsch if he thought a point would be made better or exclusively that way. For instance, certain of Nietzsche's statements are rather mangled en route to English, and occasional citation of the original might help.

And again, the poster of anything unusual (such as poetry or a foreign-language passage) always takes the chance that various readers will skip it. That's just as fairly their option.

I confess to being bemused that poetry should have somehow grown horns and fangs to be the "600C Devil". Frankly I have never run into such a villagers-with-torches scene before. Was there at some point a hideous assault on the 600C by a shambling, slavering mob of poets, a la Night of the Living Dead? "They're coming to versify you, Barbara ..."

If the poetry ban were removed, does anyone really think that the 600C would suddenly be buffeted by bards (Good, Bad, or Ugly)? I doubt it; but if so, the truly ghastly could be sentenced to watch endless reruns of Seinfeld or something comparably waterboardish.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#36784 - 03/19/10 10:49 PM Re: Poetry: The "Devil" of 600C? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Toilet training must've been a bitch, huh?

Hey, aside from watching people post some of the most idiotic things in verse, I have no real problem with poetry. I respect Rick's right as the webmaster to restrict its use, as I am a guest here. Feel free to post what you want... I'm only wearing blue, as are you.

The greens have a hell of a lot more say than I do... I just put people on ignore when I find them playing games. And reds... well, reds are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves as well. You might want to register your complaint with Rick... his site, his rules.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#36785 - 03/19/10 11:23 PM Re: Poetry: The "Devil" of 600C? [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Toilet training must've been a bitch, huh?



 Quote:
I'm only wearing blue, as are you.

I have never judged anyone's posting here by name-color, nor do I care what mine is. [Indeed I've never bothered to decipher them.] I just assume that anyone posting here is a lady or gentleman with something sincere to say, and read/occasionally respond in kind. I see this as simple courtesy, not some pecking-order matter.

 Quote:
You might want to register your complaint with Rick... his site, his rules.

I have no complaint. The topic of poetry came up here; I had some thoughts about it to share, that's all. Some others are evidently much more worked up about this than I am.
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Michael A. Aquino

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