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#37026 - 03/25/10 07:00 PM Re: "It's just a jump to the left ..." [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1140
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Um, no, that's agnosticism. Atheism is a belief that gods absolutely do not exist. Both of these, like theism, leave open the question of just what a "god" is/would be. That's where it gets messy.


Atheism and agnosticism aren't mutually incompatible positions. As Antony Flew put it, a negative Atheist (or agnostic Atheist) is one who lacks belief in a god or gods. A positive Atheist is one who positively asserts that there are no gods (or, alternately, that a specific definition of god does not exist).

"Atheist" is a further subjective term in light of the fact that "god" is undefined. Many people refer to a person outside their particular religion as an "Atheist" because he doesn't believe in their god specifically, and after all, their god is the only on that counts because he's the one true god. Everyone's an "Atheist" to someone.
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#37050 - 03/26/10 10:13 AM Re: "It's just a jump to the left ..." [Re: XiaoGui17]
Chandler Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 36
I couldn't agree more Xiao.

I, for example, believe it is highly unlikely that there is a god or gods. This makes me both an Atheist and an agnostic. On a continuum of belief, 1 being "I believe there's a god", 10 being "I believe there's no god", I would probably be a 9. So, I may not have absolute certainty that there's no god, but you wouldn't deny me the title "Atheist".

After all, anyone who holds beliefs 10 out of 10 is probably simple.

It looks like you've been reading Richard Dawkins, or Sam Harris.


Edited by Chandler (03/26/10 10:16 AM)
Edit Reason: add sentence

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#37063 - 03/26/10 06:29 PM Re: "It's just a jump to the left ..." [Re: Chandler]
Room 101 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Scotland
I would say “Gas, Grass or ass”. But perhaps I would be wrong
Is it that he wishes his demands are orchestrated by his representative on earth?

Is it that, a great deal of these demands entitle his chosen to greater rights over those deemed “bellow” him, as well as the charnel benefits that these “wishes” entitle his cardinals too?

Is it that the whole thing is just a crock of shit that allows dominion over those that are daft enough to follow another “non” entity?
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#37065 - 03/26/10 07:14 PM Re: "It's just a jump to the left ..." [Re: Chandler]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1140
Loc: Amarillo, TX
I like Dawkins a lot. I've read bits of the God Delusion and I referred to bits of The Greatest Show on Earth. I rarely read something he's written all the way through, but I often open to a random page and read as it interests me. I haven't read any of Harris's books, but I like his blog. I also like Michael Shermer and Christopher Hitchens. If we were to include recent but former contributors, I'd tack on Carl Sagan and Bertrand Russell.
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#37066 - 03/26/10 08:46 PM Re: "It's just a jump to the left ..." [Re: XiaoGui17]
Adversary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/19/10
Posts: 93
Michael, I feel the need to kinda clarify something you said. You said Atheism is a belief that gods absolutely do not exist. I, at least from my position, have to disagree with you. It is not a belief that gods absolutely do not exist, it's that there is no reason to THINK gods exist and the idea is not worth consideration. It is more a disregarding of the notion that one(or many) could exist. I don't go through the trouble of saying faries absolutely do not exist, I just don't give the notion any undue consideration. K, i'll shut up now.
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#37070 - 03/26/10 09:42 PM Re: "It's just a jump to the left ..." [Re: Adversary]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Words debated have common accepted meanings even if you don't like them. If you want to argue semantics on word origin/meaning start another thread. This one is getting off topic.


From Merriam-Webster online dictionary

Agnostic
Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: \ag-ˈnäs-tik, əg-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnōstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnōstos known, from gignōskein to know — more at know
Date: 1869

1 : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2 : a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>


Atheist
Main Entry: athe·ist
Pronunciation: \ˈā-thē-ist\
Function: noun
Date: 1551

: one who believes that there is no deity


Garrulous
Main Entry: gar·ru·lous
Pronunciation: \ˈger-ə-ləs, ˈga-rə- also ˈger-yə-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin garrulus, from garrire to chatter — more at care
Date: circa 1611

1 : given to prosy, rambling, or tedious loquacity : pointlessly or annoyingly talkative
2 : wordy 1 <garrulous speeches>
synonyms see talkative


That's it people, move along.
Back to our previous program questions regarding Set/Tos.

Morgan
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#37071 - 03/26/10 10:12 PM The Power of Definition [Re: Adversary]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Adversary
Michael, I feel the need to kinda clarify something you said. You said Atheism is a belief that gods absolutely do not exist.

As noted, I am just reflecting, as per the Merriam/Webster definitions linked, the generally-accepted meaning of these terms.

 Quote:
I, at least from my position, have to disagree with you ...

Well, it's a bit like the "Satanism" definition: If you like the word and want to represent yourself that way, you can either honestly see if you fit the g-a definition or you can "force it to fit" by coming up with your own and seeing how many other people you can get to agree with you [if you need reassurance].

Creating or re-creating definitions is one of those SU/GBM things; see that thread up in "Satanism 101". The more you can define/control a word, or a concept, the more you extend your SU into the OU: once again the Magical Link.

Where many aspiring magicians get into trouble is assuming that their preferred SU is the OU, and getting really pissed off if someone else disagrees.

Thomas Szasz, to whom Anton LaVey introduced me, observed that "In the animal world, the rule is eat or be eaten. In the human it is define or be defined." Very smart SOB. See some more of his quotes here, and check out some of his essays & books generally, which were then on the Church of Satan's reading list and remain on the Temple's today.
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