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#35069 - 02/03/10 03:14 PM The Truth is that thereīs not Truth
Cesare Borgia Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
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Loc: Madrid, Spain
There is a hindu philosopher called Krishnamurti that states that there is not truth at all, no path, nothing to stick our mind to, that all beliefs are an invention human beings create in order for not to feel the vertigo that existence produces.

He says that the world is full of war because of people definition of themselves. For example: "Iīm a muslim", "Iīm a christian", "Iīm french", "Iīm spanish", "Iīm a democrat", "Iīm a comunist, "a republican" or whatever you may stick to. This fragmented mind causes that everyone hates others with a different way of thinking.

He acuses this fragmented mind of being the cause of all evil in the world.

I think that this man has some reason.

As a satanist I think that Satanism(as a vitalist philosophy) is the most atractive to me, because of itīs indulgence, itīs defense of human instinct, the defense of nature as the esence of every man and women, pleasure and hapiness as a way of living.

But Satanism is something to live, not to define, not to preach, not to defend, as many members of this forum accurately say.

Satanism is in fact heir of the most ancient tradition of the world, Shivaism, the religion of the forest.

So in my point of view, Satanism is the most natural way of living, more than a philosophy, is an acceptance of human nature without trying to condenm it, if you realy understand it and live it in a real way.

But if someone stick to Satanism as a form of philosophy to feel identified with, and label himself to fill some emptiness, to avoid the vertigo of existence, is doing the same as other religion, political thinking, philosophy or sect folower.

That "satanist" will only be another fragmented minded man.




Edited by Cesare Borgia (02/03/10 03:17 PM)

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#35073 - 02/03/10 04:17 PM Re: The Truth is that thereīs not Truth [Re: Cesare Borgia]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

But if someone stick to Satanism as a form of philosophy to feel identified with, and label himself to fill some emptiness, to avoid the vertigo of existence, is doing the same as other religion, political thinking, philosophy or sect folower.

And this is problematic how exactly? We are animals, and tribal animals at that. We define EVERYTHING in terms of 'us vs them'.

You can choose to embrace the beast or struggle against it in vain. The human animal, despite the cries of many idealist throughout time, is in no need of 'fixing'.
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#35076 - 02/03/10 05:01 PM Re: The Truth is that thereīs not Truth [Re: Dan_Dread]
Cesare Borgia Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
We define everything with "us and them", but that is something, I think, that one should "overcome", between qotes, because there is no way of getting to anywhere(religiously speaking).

To explain this. There are many systems of thinking but none of them is proved to be "The Truth" and none of them are.

So itīs a waste of time to care to defend or impose oneīs point of view with people who donīt understand because his mind is structured in another fragmentary thought.

As you can see itīs difficult in any discusion to get to an agreement, people just stay divided. Just one has to read this or any other forum elsewhere in the web, thereīs never a conclusion.

In what to a satanist this regard is to live and let live, not to care about anyoneīs form of thinking, because that kind of thinking is "his truth", that fits to him, but just to him.

My Satanism wonīt fit to anyone just to me, and the christianism of my neighbour will only fit to him, so I wonīt even permit him to preach me, thatīs his truth itīs offensive that he tries to convince me about his way of life and vice versa.

In fact I donīt think Satanism is "The Truth", that would be another fragmented thinking.

Satanism(this can be named vitalism or whatever) to me is my real self(the only way I can be) in the way that I do all what I will.

I hate dogmas,for example: when I practice magic I practice and improvise my own work, because I donīt believe in rules even in this field.

I believe in practicing magic openly, with my own experience and investigation, I donīt even stick to Laveyīs magic teachings, though if there is something from his system that I like Iīll use it too.

One should get free even from Satanism itself as a philosophical system to realy rule oneīs life.


Edited by Cesare Borgia (02/03/10 05:15 PM)

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#35079 - 02/03/10 05:32 PM Re: The Truth is that thereīs not Truth [Re: Cesare Borgia]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Krishnamurti does not come across to me as the most ideal example of a Satanist.

He did state that truth was a pathless land and he also tends to indict individuals for defining themselves, and he also seems to be critical of desire and indulgence and the flesh.

Krishamurti comes across (at least to me) as one of those thinkers who wish to deny reality and human nature, in order, to somehow fix the human race, in order to make us more peaceful or more altruistic.

It is said that politics is war by other means - if this is the case than Satanism may be described as the philosophy of real politics.

Individuals will continue to name and define themselves and others and they will continue to fight it out in the arena. To the victors will go the spoils and the losers will get nothing.

Water will seek its own level.

The truth is defined by those with the power to define in my opinion.

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#35087 - 02/03/10 09:39 PM Re: Vitalism? [Re: Cesare Borgia]
Baron dHolbach Offline
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Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: Cesare Borgia
As a satanist I think that satanism(as a vitalist philosophy)


I think you may have chosen the wrong word. Vitalism means either that a self can will independently of the biochemical reactions of the organism, or else that there is a life force that animates the organism over and above the effects of physics and chemistry. Did you mean to equate Satanism with one of those ideas? If so, which one?
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#35101 - 02/04/10 05:42 AM Re: Vitalism? [Re: Baron dHolbach]
Cesare Borgia Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Baron Dholbach:

Philosophicaly Vitalism as life in a biological sense, the vitalism of Nietzsche.

This concept stress the role of the body, instincts, nature, strength, subsistence struggle, irrationality of nature, etc...

Life and instincts over everything, the contrary to the nihilism preached by some religions that deny life.(the nihilism condemned by Nietzsche).

MatthewJ1:

 Quote:
Krishnamurti does not come across to me as the most ideal example of a Satanist.


Exactly, I didnīt say he was.

 Quote:
He did state that truth was a pathless land and he also tends to indict individuals for defining themselves, and he also seems to be critical of desire and indulgence and the flesh.


-Defining yourself wont make you free.

-He was not critical to the indulgence and flesh at all, he was very amoral, he didnīt even cared to talk about those topics, at least Iīve read meany books by him and I didnīt find it, if he did, he didnīt stress those points.

 Quote:
Krishamurti comes across (at least to me) as one of those thinkers who wish to deny reality and human nature, in order, to somehow fix the human race, in order to make us more peaceful or more altruistic.


-Yes, he did it somehow, but he stated that men canīt get those states of mind very easy.

-I donīt suscribe to all his points of view, but to that one of the dogmatic thought that should be overcome.

 Quote:
It is said that politics is war by other means - if this is the case than Satanism may be described as the philosophy of real politics.

Individuals will continue to name and define themselves and others and they will continue to fight it out in the arena. To the victors will go the spoils and the losers will get nothing.

Water will seek its own level.

The truth is defined by those with the power to define in my opinion.


Thatīs wright, but there are people, like me, that donīt consider the need to fight, I consider(always to myself)my own Satanism as something playful.

I donīt define myself and I donīt care others definitions, so I tolerate them very easy in their "truth", if they donīt affect to me or my loved ones.

Life is painful herself, so as regards to me, I wonīt make it more complicated imposing my points of view or trying to get people to understand me.

Satanism to me is testing a good wine, making love with freedom, enjoying everything at the top, but as Lavey states, not been dominated by those things of course.

Life is very short too, so the only way (always to me)to get out sucessfuly from her is having lived the best and joyful you can.


Edited by Cesare Borgia (02/04/10 06:01 AM)

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#35120 - 02/04/10 05:15 PM Re: Vitalism? [Re: Cesare Borgia]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I do like your adherence to an indulgence, not compulsion type of lifestyle and your “I don’t care what people think of me” attitude seems good as well, however:

Defining and typing yourself will make you free. If you do not define yourself someone else will or may.

If you won’t define and successfully type yourself and gain a deeper measure of self understanding, than you may be a victim of all sorts of Lesser Magical type manipulations.

Articulate yourself so you are clearly known and understood, or someone else will tell everybody (including you) who you are, and as a result limit and designate what you can be and what you can do.

The world is a battlefield – a battlefield of ideas, actions and political positions.

If anybody intends to gain any sort of influence, or power in the world, than they must be prepared to fight it out with the others who want the same thing.

I believe it was Aristotle who once claimed that man was a political animal. I feel he was right.

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#35136 - 02/05/10 05:25 AM The Truth is that thereīs not Truth [Re: ]
Cesare Borgia Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Definitions come naturaly, I donīt make the label, Iīm a free satanist(thatīs a kind of definition), I wouldnīt ever belong to any group of satanist like the Satanic Church or any other, because everywhere you go, thereīs someone trying to tell you what to do and what is best to you.

Every system is invented by a person who, if you accept his statements, even though you donīt like them, then you see them as an authority and at a higher level than you.

For example: I accept the Laveyan system in what fits to me.

All systems have too many mistakes to be taken seriously. I donīt mean the Laveyīs system, that I consider the best summary of the vitalist philosophy(in fact is a good system because gives a lot of freedom to his followers, so itīs neccesary to use it).

But if you see you can even invent your own system for yourself.

I donīt know in Australia or USA, but in Europe you donīt need to be defined in any religion or system, because people donīt care, and are not interested in religion, so it is very easy not to adjust to any religious or political system.

I never vote, I donīt care Right or Left, they are all the same, and thereīs always someone who gets rich at the end of the Goverment, except you or me.

The "Superman", donīt follow the others moral because of his capacity of creating values for him or herself.

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#35143 - 02/05/10 12:23 PM Re: The Truth is that thereīs not Truth [Re: Cesare Borgia]
Zorg Offline
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Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 44
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Krishnamurti also said, "Blessed is the man who is born into religion. Cursed is the man who dies in religion", or something to that effect. He was basically saying the path of liberation cannot be found in an established dogma. Why? Because established dogma (at least in Eastern thought) is a record of someone else's liberation...not your own. I like Krishnamurti very much. He can be deep, and should be read very carefully, and many times to see what he is gettinig at. But, it should be pointed out that he is still a mystic, and Eastern. The irony would be to quote him as an authority, as he taught against following authorized teaching. The head spins.

I often think of a zen story. An old realized one is seen carrying a large sack. A disciple asks what liberation is like. The old man drops the sack and dances around, free of his heavy load. The disciple asked what comes next. The old man picked the sack up and continued walking.

The problem isn't defining yourself. It's why you do it. Besides...if Satanists worship anything, it would be their own egos; and egos are definitive.
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"Plato was a bore."
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#35144 - 02/05/10 01:00 PM Re: The Truth is that thereīs not Truth [Re: Zorg]
Cesare Borgia Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
The fact is that the man denyes everything:

Meditation, Mantras, magic, Zen, Budhism, Christianism, Comunism, Satanism(though he didnīt mention it), and even his authority.

When he spoke he used to say to the audience, not to pay atention to what he said, but to observe with him, to think with him in that very moment.He used to say that you could get free, if you could get it, in a hurry, or maybe never.

A very peculiar person.

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#35145 - 02/05/10 01:40 PM Re: The Truth is that thereīs not Truth [Re: Cesare Borgia]
Zorg Offline
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Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 44
Loc: A Galaxy Far, Far Away
 Originally Posted By: Cesare Borgia
The fact is that the man denyes everything:

Meditation, Mantras, magic, Zen, Budhism, Christianism, Comunism, Satanism(though he didnīt mention it), and even his authority.

When he spoke he used to say to the audience, not to pay atention to what he said, but to observe with him, to think with him in that very moment.He used to say that you could get free, if you could get it, in a hurry, or maybe never.

A very peculiar person.


I bought "Krishnamurti's Notebook" a couple of years ago. I have yet to read it. It begins with him talking about an ongoing headache, I believe.

There is a type of one-upmanship going on, I think. I mean, in truth, he is saying, "You need to learn not to listen to anyone...let me tell you why."

But he is brilliant, and has some interesting things to say. It really becomes interesting when you begin to look at language, and how it can sometime be a barrier to actual experience or knowledge.

I have a son. I wanted to expose him to my love of animals. I thought a great way to do that would be to take him to one of those drive-through safaris. before we began, he got a brochure and map. Through the whole safari, he looked at the map and pictures of animals. He would not actually look at the animals.

I think that is the kind of thing Krishnamurti is talking about. A LOT of people do that.



_________________________
"The average person thinks he isn’t" Father Lorenzoni

"Plato was a bore."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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#35146 - 02/05/10 02:31 PM Re: The Truth is that thereīs not Truth [Re: Zorg]
Cesare Borgia Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
He speaks from a state of concience that some times is difficult to understand him.

In fact, his "method" is not for every body, some times one have to have worked in many disciplines to realize that none of them is useful at all. Then you can get what he says.

I myself have walked through many paths, and in those times I used to read Krishnamurti, but I used to think that he said what he said because he had gone through everything and practiced many things, but that I needed some paths or methods.

From all those methods I learned something, but none of them are "The Truth".

Now I realize that thereīs no necesity of anything to be a free man or an "iluminated" or "Superman", you have just everything now, but sometimes one canīt realize it.

The real fredom is to realize that thereīs not truth, or if thereīs any, nobody can tell you,just your own experience.

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#35148 - 02/05/10 02:50 PM Re: The Truth is that thereīs not Truth [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Cesare Borgia Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Thatīs a good joke, very funny, realy. But is a good parable in the Jesus style of what happens to people who donīt follow his own inteligence.

Edited by Cesare Borgia (02/05/10 02:51 PM)

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#35152 - 02/05/10 03:19 PM Re: The Truth is that thereīs not Truth [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Cesare Borgia Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Oh! I realize you like humor, I love it too.

From USA I like a lot George Carlin, he is great.

Humor is the best kind of information because it laughs at everything that is writen with capital letters.

In this postmodern times, when information is so distorted, fragmented and partialized, one should better listen or read humorists, they are who say the truth about whatīs happening around us.

I agree with you, Jesus would never make a joke, at least thatīs what say those writers of the four gospels.

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#35162 - 02/06/10 02:13 AM This sentence is false. [Re: Cesare Borgia]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Actually the expression of an asserted truth is fraught with paradoxical danger. Krishnamurti could have had some great LBM fun with his disciples accordingly, but probably didn't.

As a Black Magician, make it a habit to look for, and apply, the unexpected in any situation. You don't want people to "anticipate a stage-magic trick", and therefore if you do one, there will be consternation.

Since the subject of "postmodernism" has also popped up in this thread, you might also enjoy the Postmodernism Generator: Every time you go there it will happily create a new essay which, while sounding imposing, is gibberish from start to finish. If you ever find yourself in a boring philosophy class, turn in one of these as your paper or as an oral class presentation. You might even get an "A".

P.S. No fair using clips from the PMG for 600C Forum thread responses if you feel you're losing an argument or just want to be a jerk.

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