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#35173 - 02/06/10 06:45 AM Postmodernity . The advent of Superman?
Cesare Borgia Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
-Since Modern Age beggins the death of God(that thought Nietzsche)

He stated that until the Pericles Century there was an armony between dionisiac and Apollonian thought.

With Euripides, Socrates, and Plato, apollonian thought winned the battled over dionisiac thought. Is the beggining of Platonism and the world decadence.

Christianism(Platonism for the masses)ruled the world until the Age of Ilustration where the reason began to sustitute God, and metaphysics gets into a crisis.

At the present the Dead of God is almost inminent, and platonism is more questioned than before, even by religious people.

Nietsche said that then the advent of a superior human being would be possible when this occur(the dead of Gog).

Some times this man talked like a prophet, though he wasn´t, some times he pretended to be one. I think that many of the things he said are being seen now, not because he could foresee, but for his aplication of an extraordinary logic.

But I personaly think that in this postmodern times, people is more stupid than ever and there´s a bigest dispersion of senses than ever due to the media.

I think this is a dark age in wich we are entering, people hates culture, history, people don´t pay atention to anithing, their mind is disperse.

This decadence can be seen in movies, music, contemporary art(I hate it), politics, and all what used to be valuable now is not.

Maybe this is a transition period where human beings have not defined their cours.

I don´t believe Modernity is a good solution, but Postmodernity is a tireness of everything, a general discouregement unuseful for doing anithing creative for a renaissance of humanity.



Edited by Cesare Borgia (02/06/10 06:48 AM)

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#35184 - 02/06/10 12:40 PM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: Cesare Borgia]
hard_rainus Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 5
Postmodernism is the nihilism Nietzsche saw coming. Society has become decadent because we have all had it too easy. Why try when everything can be given to us without much effort? We are the last men from Zarathustra.

I think that there will have to be two things that will have to happen before society will be able to overcome this nihilism. The first will be some event or series of events that will make people face hardships (war, the effects of peak oil, etc) that will take away their comforts. Second, a strong leader to give them direction. Of course, this is a story that has played out in history many times before, but humans have not changed significantly in the few thousand years history has been recorded.

The only bearing this has for Satanists is that we have the advantage of not being one of the lazy herd and can benefit from the weakness of others.

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#35213 - 02/07/10 05:59 PM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: hard_rainus]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



You will forgive me if I engage in some sentimentality and some reminiscing.

When I attended art college during the 1990’s the really big debate on campus was the Modern/Postmodern debate.

There were, of course, people who just didn’t care about this debate and went about doing their own thing, but for those of us who fancied ourselves theorists as well as painters, sculptors, installation and sound artists etc. the be all and end all of debate was this damned Modern/Postmodern question.

The Postmodern was best defined by guys like Jean-Francois Lyotard and Jean Baudrillard, who were considered the big figures in Postmodern theory.

Harbermas was considered important as a critic. Benjamin, Barthes, Derrida, Foucault, Said and Deleuze and many other figures were appropriated (sometimes against their will) in order to build the Postmodern philosophy.

There were a number of tendencies of so called Postmodernism, which were interesting.

Even now I am not sure whether these tendencies were somehow Postmodern or just a continuation of the critical aspects of late Modernist culture and thinking. Here are some the aspects of this so called Postmodern:

• A sense that grand narratives, such as the Hegelian philosophy of history, the emancipation of the working subject or the proletariat, the accumulation of wealth etc. were no longer convincing, they were no longer able to compel consensus as generators and legitimator’s of action.
• The face of the other was said to have emerged to be seen and heard. The end of the white male as the sole originator of meaning or authority etc. Derrida’s deconstruction etc. The work of Kristeva etc. The work of Said etc.
• The death of originality, the death of the author, the death of the avant-garde, the death of painting etc. etc. etc. Barthes and Foucault etc.
• Baudrillard’s simulacra and simulation and the hyperreal.

There are more of these claims, regarding the Postmodern.

I actually see Dr. LaVey as holding an interesting place within this debate, within this set of questions.

I see Dr. LaVey as thoroughly modern in many respects. I see him as concerned with substantial reality; with issues of quality over quantity; with authenticity and authorship and originality over copies or simulation. I also see him as concerned with law and order issues, and questions related to responsibility.

I also see Dr. LaVey, particularly the early Dr. LaVey as interested in public perception and media representations and how meaning is generated.

Then there were the famous early phases of The Church when the show business aspects were important to establish a presence in the world.

Does any of this resonate with members? Did Dr. LaVey have a thoroughly Modern outlook and yet employ the odd Postmodern strategy when required?

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#35214 - 02/07/10 06:32 PM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: ]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
"Thoroughly modern" is something I don't think that anyone could ever apply to Anton Szandor LaVey. Anton LaVey was a man who did pretty much anything t hat he could to keep the modern world at bay unless he could find some compelling reason not to. He accepted computers and modern keyboards because they helped him in his music and in his writing, as well as running things from the Black House. But the man was not in any way enamored of modernity.

He surrounded himself with things that brought him memories of a simpler time. His home reflected that, being a time capsule of the 1930's and 1940's that he embraced. His clothing style (even if his clothes were newer and not vintage) reflected the style of a gentleman in the same period... he went for style over flash, although his style could be flashy, but always with STYLE.

Women around him tended to have an air of the 30's and 40's vixen, rather than the "flower child" or "urban rebel" or the time period. They wore skirts and stockings and heels and makeup. They looked like women. I don't think I ever saw a woman in jeans anywhere near Dr. LaVey.

He didn't want to know the news of the day. Didn't want to talk about Vietnam, or what it meant. He would much rather talk about things the way they WERE, and what he hoped to do to return some measure of what he defined as "civility" back to the world as he wished it could be.

No. LaVey was not "modern." LaVey was a human anachronism.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#35219 - 02/07/10 08:04 PM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



To MAW

I should note that Kuhn’s paradigm theory was one of those philosophical theories, which the Postmodernists in fact appropriated and used to describe the altered consciousness and “movement” of history, once the Hegelian/Marxist model had lost its validity.

I tend to perceive the relevance and reality of the Modern/Postmodern constructs, but realise that the meaning of those constructs may be still contested, and may have collapsed into each other to a certain extent.

To Jake

Yes I can appreciate that Dr. LaVey established and enjoyed a total environment, indicative of the aesthetic and moral qualities of the 1930’s and 1940’s.

His witches seem to reflect his ECI I would assume – those feminine bombshells with the high heels, stockings and suspenders and make up and the glamour glamour glamour.

For a contemporary artist the aesthetics of the 1930’s and the 1940’s tend to represent a period of time which is quintessentially Modern.

Film Noir, German Expressionism, Geometric form, Art Deco are all deeply Modernist in nature from the perspective of many contemporary artists in my experience.

The assumption here is that the Modern/early Modern may have in fact ended in the 1960’s and was replaced by something else.

I can certainly understand Dr.LaVey wanting to close himself off and avoid what may be described as Late Modernity or Postmodernity.

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#35221 - 02/07/10 08:51 PM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: ]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Hello wall.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#35224 - 02/07/10 10:01 PM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: Cesare Borgia]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I just wanted to make a comment on the first post in this thread in relation to the work of Friedrich Nietzsche.

It is interesting to note that it was Nietzsche and the way Foucault and Deleuze later read Nietzsche, particularly The Genealogy of Morals, which provided an impetus towards Post Structuralist and Post Modernist thinking.

The key point, in this sense, was that “truth” or “reality” or “right” was established through appropriation and transformation by the “will to truth,” unmasked as the will to power, determined by physiology and instinct and rank.

The superman has been described (by Nietzsche himself) to be similar to Aristotle’s magnanimous man or as resembling Goethe in many ways.

If God dies than it does not necessarily mean each individual will elevate him or herself to supreme power. Some, including, the Satanist may have the courage and the clarity to do this, but probably not the vast majority.

Warm regards


The Brick Wall

P.S. I still think LaVey was a Modernist.

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#35225 - 02/07/10 10:16 PM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: ]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
And I'm beginning to be more and more convinced that you're a troll who simply decides what he wants to believe in his head and then tries to find someone to validate it. I could tell you what you want to hear. That would be easy. But then, it would be a lie...

You'd accept that though. Which makes you as phony as any other wannabe who comes in here and tries to glom onto LaVey's name to push their own agenda. I personally see no percentage in helping you validate your delusions.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#35226 - 02/07/10 10:50 PM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: Jake999]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Your insults have no effect on me.

You obviously have zero understanding of the Modern/Postmodern debate and how LaVey would fit into that debate.

You do not own the copyright on LaVey and are not exclusively entitled to make statements and claims in regards to him.

Individuals, such as myself, who wish to study LaVey and make claims about him will continue to do so.

I do not require you to validate my position/opinions. I can determine that for myself.

Thank you.

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#35227 - 02/07/10 11:11 PM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: ]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
You know what... I was going to respond, but fuck it. I grow weary as hell of people coming on line and acting like they're experts in LaVeyan history without ever even managing to scratch the surface.

If people want to write bullshit, have at it.
If people want to believe their bullshit, have at it.

I'm getting tired to the games that get played.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#35231 - 02/08/10 02:33 AM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: ]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
Modernity/Post-modernity is just a term to describe the form of art and architecture in a certain period of time.
Pinning people and claiming they have an influence without any factual evidence or clear indications is like shooting a bat in the dark, you'll miss it for sure.

As what Jake said is purely an indication that ASL, from what I understand and think he meant, didn't give a flying fuck about it.
The style he liked was dating from the 30-40ies for aesthetical reasons of his own which aren't my business. Do you want to put the label of "Modernity"on it? Go ahead. The truth is that neither he and many others didn't care what label you are giving x years later.

The point here is simple: you are trying to put a label onto someone you don't know, never met or have any background of.


Edited by Dimitri (02/08/10 02:42 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#35235 - 02/08/10 05:34 AM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: Dimitri]
Cesare Borgia Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
 Quote:
For a contemporary artist the aesthetics of the 1930’s and the 1940’s tend to represent a period of time which is quintessentially Modern.

Film Noir, German Expressionism, Geometric form, Art Deco are all deeply Modernist in nature from the perspective of many contemporary artists in my experience.

The assumption here is that the Modern/early Modern may have in fact ended in the 1960’s and was replaced by something else.

I can certainly understand Dr.LaVey wanting to close himself off and avoid what may be described as Late Modernity or Postmodernity.


Maybe Lavey avoided mediocricy of postmodern times that is said began in the early 70´s. His art and style still belonged to modern times.

Postmodernity is, culturality speaking, artistic.

But Postmodernity, sociologicaly speaking, refers to a cultural process that have ocurred in many countries in the last 20 years and was already beggining in the early 70´s.

Sociologicaly, and culturaly, modernity began in the age of ilustration, in the XVIII century and all art, culture, economy, philosophy, etc. Was ruled by this thought: faith in the human being, faith in progress, faith in education, faith in reason, etc.

But in the twentieth century men demostrated that were real beasts, and worst than animals with two deadly big wars, concentration camps, and gulag.

Postmodernity is a disapointment, a tireness, a lost of faith in human race. Sociologists say that Postmodernity began in early 70´s, but modernity ended with the fall of the Wall of Berlin in 1989.

From that year until now, human beings are totaly different, people with my age and beyond can note the difference.

 Quote:
The Postmodern was best defined by guys like Jean-Francois Lyotard and Jean Baudrillard, who were considered the big figures in Postmodern theory.


Is interesting, Baudrilard made studies about the change of reality for virtuality in theese Postmodern times.

For me that´s what defines must that senses are disperse and people have lost social relationships, and don´t use their brains anymore.

To clear things up:

This thread is to discuss a sociologycal phenomena compared to Nietzsche philosophy, not to define Satanism into Modern and Postmodern thought.

Nietzche was an acrid critic of modernity and reason of ilustration in his times.

And suspected Postmodern times in many of his writings, he was first breaking paradigms of Modernity.

All those philosophers quoted by MatthewJ1 have been highly influenced by the thought of Nietzsche.




Edited by Cesare Borgia (02/08/10 06:13 AM)

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#35279 - 02/08/10 08:32 PM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: Cesare Borgia]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



The Modern/Postmodern was so much more to me than just a way of describing and categorising art objects and architecture.

It really was the dominant intellectual issue in my life and a great deal of my studies over the last 15 to 20 years was concerned with it.

The most pertinent quality which the Postmodern demonstrates is this so called legitimation crisis.

It was Nietzsche and the thinkers, who later read Nietzsche in significant ways, such as Foucault, Bataille, Derrida and Deleuze, who analysed and elaborated this crisis of legitimation and meaning in the most profound and dangerous way.

The Nietzschean re-evaluation of all values, the overman, the master morality detailed in the later parts of Beyond Good and Evil and The Will to Power notebooks is the beginning of the way out of the Postmodern dilemma in my opinion.

One of the main reason I took up the philosophy of LaVey was because it seemed to me that his thinking was the clearest, most logical and most important elaboration of this way out.

I personally regard LaVey as one of the most important philosophers of the Twentieth Century; his thinking is absolutely critical in re – establishing meaning, responsibility, authenticity and quality in western culture and society, whilst acknowledging the carnal and mundane aspects of humanity.

I cannot separate the Modern, the Postmodern and the Satanic philosophy. They are inseparably connected.

No doubt there will be those who disagree with me - oh well, such as life.

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#35300 - 02/09/10 05:25 AM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: ]
Cesare Borgia Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
The way postmodern philosophers look at knoweledge has been very dangerous for human beings of today.

Men before Ilustration believed in God, Ilustration killed that God and started to believe in reason.

In postmodern times people have killed reason too, so there is an emptiness in peoples mind that nobody knows where´s going.

Maybe, for some people, Satanism is a good philosophy, because it warns us against stupidity, the lack of common sense and inmaturity.

It´s vitalist principles are attached to nature, instincts, and the convenient inteligence.

But I see that there are many who think that Satanism is a question of considering others idiot or being rude in the way they speak. That´s like behaving like people they criticize.

I call that: "The rebell rock singer attitude", that in reality means: "I say I´m a satanist because it makes me feel special, but as I´m an idiot and inmature, and I realy know it, I speak rudely to you so you think that I´m inteligent and more satanistic than you".That kind of people deserve not my attention at all.

So, not all so called satanists, I think, keep inteligence and matureness as philosophy to get to be a "Superman" in these times.

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#35349 - 02/09/10 07:27 PM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



To Maw

I appreciate your comments.

I agree that many historical trends are ongoing and barely recognised by those who are not participating in them and do not have some sort of stake in them.

I personally like to employ Kuhn’s paradigm theory as a means of approaching and understanding the historical.

The way I understand Kuhn’s paradigm theory is as follows and this is based on my reading of The Structure of Scientific Revolutions:

• New knowledge claims, in some sense constituting a new order of truth or framework of the real, are put forward and are accepted by a community of interested participants or stakeholders.
• The paradigm is built within the framework of the new knowledge claims by the community and as such acquires more and more authority as The Real as further successful claims are made over time.
• All other alternative forms of knowledge, or of the real, are relegated to the margins, if they are considered incompatible with the functioning or theoretical framework of the paradigm.
• No paradigm remains entirely secure as challengers arise and new knowledge claims are produced and clashes and replacement occur. This is born out by the study of history.

I do not know if you would agree with this - but it seems to me that the Satanic philosophy has held a position in the margins for centuries and may still hold such a place, even though there are individuals from all periods of history, who have employed the tactics of the Satanic philosophy, in order to meet goals which one could describe as Satanic.

It also seems to me that the dominant way of interpreting or defining Satanism as a philosophy or a way of life is to compare and contrast it with the traditionally dominant Judeo –Christian paradigm and the way that paradigm functions and plays out within western culture and within the mind and bodies of human beings.

My purpose in this particular thread is to interpret or define Satanism by examining it within the philosophical discourse of the modern/postmodern question as you have quite correctly pointed out Maw.

It is also to try to remain true to Cesare’s intention for this thread, which I read as being concerned with the legitimation crisis posed by the Postmodern and the question of the Nietzschean superman and how meaning or truth or reason can be restored via the superman.

I engaged in this because the modern/postmodern question meant more to me than the Judeo - Christian paradigm ever did. Satanism, which I tend to view as distinctly modern in flavour, seemed to me at least to be a return to originality and authenticity and quality, whilst retaining the materialism or realism of the world inherent in the genuinely modern.

I love the aesthetic of modernism as well and the Satanic fascination with the trapezoid and angles.

Anyway I will not continue it.

I do note that the paradigm model itself may be a redundant form for looking at Satanism, considering that one of the premises of Satanism is individually created values, self assertion and subjective projection. A tool such as the paradigm with its emphasis on structure, community and consensus may clash with the premise of Satanism.

The constant adherence to the paradigm shift itself? Hell why not, sounds good Maw.

I enjoy reading intelligent and interesting claims regarding this philosophy.

To Cesare – you have provided some good and interesting threads here, in my opinion, and I hope you will continue to do so.

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#43387 - 10/01/10 01:25 PM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: ]
Prometheus9 Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 37
A really valuable resource for getting to grips with the concept of Postmodernity is the series "The Self Under Siege: Philosophy in the 20th Century" by Rick Roderick. This series along with his other two excellent series "Philosophy and Human Values" and "Nietzsche and the Postmodern Condition" can be found at

http://rickroderick.org/

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#43393 - 10/01/10 11:16 PM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: Cesare Borgia]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
Possibly the disconnect between Jake and Matthew above is the result of some confusion concerning the term "modern". It can refer to "things of the present" (as per Jake) or to a subset (e.g. moderne of the Art Deco movement/era (as per Matthew). Jake is correct that Anton LaVey æsthetically resisted the former; Matthew is also correct that he was an aficionado of the latter. From my Church of Satan:

* * * * * * * * * *

... Along with Anton LaVey’s growing interest [in the early 1970s] in androids and atmospheres of despair came his increasing fascination with Art Deco, as mentioned in the collectors’ magazine article reprinted as Appendix #120.

Art Deco is a movement through which the decorative arts passed in the late 1920s and early 1930s, generally acknowledged to have been touched off by the 1925 Exposition des Arts Decoratifs et Industriels in Paris. The “polite” art history establishment considers it to be a sort of commercialized bastardization of the Symbolist movement of the turn of the century, hence relatively little has been written about it. To the modern browser, “Art Deco” suggests a type of cheap, breezy-looking sculpture stamped out of plastic. In fact its psychology is far more subtle and magical than that.

Art Deco arose as a consequence of several clashing influences on western - particularly British, French, and American - society after World War I. In the years after the Mexican Revolution and Pancho Villa’s raids into the United States, there was an artistic fascination with Mexican (particularly pre-Columbian) art and architectural forms, as well as with those of the North American Indians. Stepped pyramids and straight lines with sudden, tightly-knit curves, cacti, and stylized Suns were among the principal focuses of this interest.

In 1922 the tomb of Tutankhamen was discovered by Howard Carter, resulting, among other things, in an artistic and decorative sub-movement incorporating Egyptian themes. This too was absorbed into Art Deco.

Finally, and most powerfully, there was the influence of the modern machine age. By the turn of the century machines were beginning to move beyond the quaint, awkward monstrosities of the late 1800s to sleek, smooth, efficient devices. In 1900 Antoine de Saint-Exupery expressed the wonderment of mankind at this strange new encounter with the machine:

 Originally Posted By: AdS-E
Have you looked at a modern æroplane? Have you followed from year to year the evolution of its lines? Have you ever thought not only about the æroplane, but about whatever man builds, that all of man’s industrial efforts, all his computations and calculations, all the nights spent over working draughts and blueprints, invariably culminate in the production of a thing whose sole and guiding principle is the ultimate principle of simplicity?

It is as if there were a natural law which ordained that to achieve this end, to refine the curve of a piece of furniture, or a ship’s keel, or the fuselage of an æroplane, until gradually it partakes of the elementary purity of the curve of a human breast or shoulder, there must be the experimentation of several generations of craftsmen. In anything at all, perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away, when a body has been stripped down to its nakedness.

It results from this that perfection of invention touches hands with absence of invention, as if that line which the human eye will follow with effortless delight were a line that had not been invented but simply discovered, had in the beginning been hidden by nature and in the end been found by the engineer.

The machine was beautiful, impressive, and fascinating - but it was also somewhat frightening. It was an unknown quantity. It seemed to be taking humanity into an entirely different world from that which had previously existed. Books and films such as Metropolis [Chapter #23] raised the spectre of man’s losing control of machines and finding himself their servant and victim instead. So Art Deco was not just an attempt at incorporating the machine into art, but also a means of reassuring mankind that machines could be reduced to decorations and playthings at will.

Art Deco is thus a blend of exotic, mysterious antiquity and the image of the machine. When human figures appear, they are similarly mysterious, exotic, and streamlined machines.

As if this is not enough, they are also oddly cold and de-sexed as well. The 1920s was a period of flourishing homosexuality among both sexes, caused in major part by the relative sundering of males and females by World War I and the war’s toll of many millions of male lives. Men had spent years largely in the company of other men, while many women now had no chance of getting husbands even had all surviving males been interested. This plight was reflected, perhaps, in the “bobbed” hairstyles and flat-chested fashions of the 1920’s - and in the “unisexualization” of Art Deco.

All of which is to say that Art Deco is beautiful, cold, streamlined, and weird.
At first glance it appears pretty, but there is also something disturbing about it. Like the robotrix in Metropolis, it suggests something subliminally sinister, something vaguely abnormal - as though it is not now dangerous but will be if left to develop long enough.

There is a touch of the psychotic about it, as though it represents a view of the world seen through the eyes of someone who took hallucinogenic drugs while standing in the middle of a 1920s’ airplane factory. Nowhere is this peculiar atmosphere of the art form better exemplified than in the two Dr. Phibes films, where the Abominable Anton constantly surrounds himself with a phantasmagoria of Art Deco artifacts.

As Dr. Phibes communed passionately and devotedly with his dead Victoria, so did Dr. LaVey with the dead Marilyn Monroe. His success with necromantic rituals directed towards her, as recounted in Chapter #25, increased his interest in Hollywood - not as a city or an industry, but as an ECI medium for “cryonic freezing” of the life-force ...
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#43411 - 10/03/10 05:42 AM Re: Postmodernity . The advent of Superman? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I am approaching my one year annivesary at the 600 Club. Woo hoo.

To Dr. Aquino and Jake - you guys are the best.

To Prometheus - A short list of some other good stuff:

1. The Postmodern Condition by Lyotard
2. Everything by the man Jean Baudrillard.
3. The Philosophical Discourses of Modernity by Habermas.
4. Orientalism by Edward Said
5. Works by Fredric Jameson, Hans Berten, Jaques Derrida, Ihab Hassan, Thomas Kuhn, Deleuze and Guattari etc. etc.

There is a long road to walk to arrive at Postmodernism but it is an interesting walk.

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#44940 - 12/14/10 10:56 PM Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: ]
Aklo Offline
member


Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
Further addressing the discussion of Jason King's new age bible:

 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
On a more serious note I think any work which attempts to describe a postmodern Satanism is going to have to define its terms carefully and then position itself within the current modern/postmodern debate, or else set its own position and explain that position and how it differs from the current debate.

But it sort of skips most of that, and gets right down to teaching transcendental meditation and arguing epistemologies out the yinyang instead.

 Quote:
There should at least be some reference made to Baudrillard, Lyotard, Habermas, Jameson etc. and possibly the more prominent Post-Structuralist’s.

But, there aren't. Oh there's gibberish sure, lots of it. But not that gibberish.

 Quote:
This debate has been raging on now for nearly thirty years now and has included a wide variety of thinkers (some appropriated, some not) and artist’s etc. This debate, I feel, is primarily concerned with human beings, their relationships to each other and their social, political and cultural institutions and objects. It is also primarily concerned with a critical evaluation of the philosophical underpinnings of knowledge, with an unmasking of reason as will to power, and so called objectivity as merely the perception and discourse of the dominant. Also the notion of the stable modern subject, which comes under some fire, through Freud and Saussure and those who drew on their work, is under a great deal of critical scrutiny as well within postmodern theory.

Some of that will-to-power stuff makes it in, but more as axiomatic than the subject of any ongoing debate. Has a false ring to it, too.

 Quote:
I am not sure whether JK has addressed these issues in his work, but I feel they must be addressed. And LaVey and his work must be addressed as well I think.

LaVey is addressed, just barely, at the beginning, as someone whose relevance has passed.

_________________________
Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#44941 - 12/14/10 11:46 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



To be honest I feel a bit uncomfortable talking about this work any further without having sat down and really taken the time to study it.

Now that Jason King appears to be a member here I am also hoping he can come in here and discuss his work in some detail.

I do feel that postmodernism and Satanism are opposing philosophical tendencies. The level of self assurance and self possession demonstrated by a Satanist is above average and isn't undermined by a Post Structuralist critique of the subject. The Satanist's ability to regard ones own needs or desires as absolutely reliable for determining ones actions is not undermined by questions of the legitimacy of power and its techniques or instruments, as in postmodern thought. I am not sure how Satanic magic can be grounded in postmodern thought???The Satanic insistence that realism, pragmatism and responsibility be respected and that reason is a valid form of acquiring knowledge is undermined by postmodern discourse I think. I don't like the insistence on uncertainty and fracture in postmodernism. I like a grander vision.

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#44952 - 12/15/10 09:35 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: ]
Aklo Offline
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 Quote:
To be honest I feel a bit uncomfortable talking about this work any further without having sat down and really taken the time to study it.


He has apparently allowed it to be posted at Goat of Mendes as a pdf, along with some video commentary. So you may want to page through it quickly and get an idea of what it does and doesn't cover? (Note that while it has 196 pages, the first four are blank, with two more after the title and two more at the end.)

In the meantime, what do you think about the death of postmodernism?

 Quote:
Recently the notion of the "death of postmodernism" has been increasingly widely debated: in 2007 Andrew Hoborek noted in his introduction to a special issue of the journal Twentieth Century Literature titled "After Postmodernism" that "declarations of postmodernism's demise have become a critical commonplace". A small group of critics has put forth a range of theories that aim to describe culture and/or society in the alleged aftermath of postmodernism, most notably Raoul Eshelman (performatism), Gilles Lipovetsky (hypermodernity), Nicolas Bourriaud (Altermodern), and Alan Kirby (digimodernism, formerly called pseudo-modernism).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism#Post-postmodernism

There's a lot more here:

 Quote:
Pseudo-modernism’s “typical intellectual states” are furthermore described as being “ignorance, fanaticism and anxiety” and it is said to produce a “trance-like state” in those participating in it. The net result of this media-induced shallowness and instantaneous participation in trivial events is a “silent autism” superseding “the neurosis of modernism and the narcissism of postmodernism.“ Kirby sees no aesthetically valuable works coming out of “pseudo-modernism.” As examples of its triteness he cites reality TV, interactive news programs, “the drivel found […] on some Wikipedia pages,” docu-soaps, and the essayistic cinema of Michael Moore or Morgan Spurlock

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-postmodernism#Definitions

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Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#44981 - 12/15/10 08:12 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Shit, what a mess. All these different modernism's.

One of the more common themes of Postmodernism as it pertains to the visual arts and other cultural practices was the notion of the death of the author, the death of the avant-garde, the death of a dominant discourse on and about cultural practices, the death of the distinction between elitist high culture and low brow kitsch, and the death of privileged mediums such as painting or sculpture over the so called crafts.

The whole discourse just exploded into a thousand fragments and everything seemed to collapse into each other.

To announce a so called death of postmodernism is quite worthless in my view as this position is just one message in a world which is inundated by streams and streams of messages and discursive formations, in typical postmodern style.

I think the only way postmodernism can be cracked is by a wholesle repudiation of the philsophical framework within which it is built and by individuals whom artist's and cultural powerbrokers respect and identify with. Maybe such a repudiation has taken place, but where? I don't think it has really effected the art practice of artist's. Again it is just one more position in a sea of positions.

I do like modernism and its great journeys into the unknown. Resurrecting the avant-garde (if it ever even died) is a job and a half.

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#44997 - 12/16/10 07:51 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: ]
Jason King Offline
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Just so further straw men are avoided, it should be clear that the usage of the designator "postmodern" is a reference to moving the idea of Satanism beyond the "modern" (i.e. LaVeyan), and NOT a reference to the school of thought so-called. The work defines itself, and attempts to baste it in the juices of unconnected philosophies is to fail to be truly critical of the thing in question.

Postmodern Satanism is an attempt to offer a proactive vision of the Satanic philosophy, one which does not depend on the Judeo-Christian model for the interpretation of its labels. Now granted, this cannot be avoided entirely, given the historical development of the term "satan," however, it can be done ontologically, which is the entire point of the volume. LaVey was incapable of doing this, which is why I have moved beyond his reactionary model towards an understanding of the Adversary as an evolutionary hypostasis, rather than the "other team's bad guy".

JK
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#44998 - 12/16/10 08:03 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Jason King Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Aklo
But it sort of skips most of that, and gets right down to teaching transcendental meditation and arguing epistemologies out the yinyang instead.


You seem to enjoy throwing words around with no inkling as to proper usage. Transcendental Meditation (TM) is a specific thing (hence the caps), and is irrelevant to anything in Postmodern Satanism. I doubt you'll even find the term "mantra" anywhere therein. And last time I checked, epistemology is the most important branch of philosophy. I eagerly await your corrections on these points . . .

JK
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#45004 - 12/16/10 11:07 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Jason King]
Aklo Offline
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 Quote:
NOT a reference to the school of thought so-called.

My mistake then, the bulk of this discussion really does belong in the Troll Thumping after all. Considering that that was where you had put it in the first place, I stand corrected.

Your usage of the term at all though, lifting it out of its technical context, is itself one of the signatures of the "post-postmodernist" discussion. So, what do you think about digimodernism, the failure of coherent discourse, and the general Death of Postmodernism meme?
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#45007 - 12/16/10 12:12 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Jason King Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Aklo
 Quote:
NOT a reference to the school of thought so-called.

My mistake then, the bulk of this discussion really does belong in the Troll Thumping after all. Considering that that was where you had put it in the first place, I stand corrected.

Your usage of the term at all though, lifting it out of its technical context, is itself one of the signatures of the "post-postmodernist" discussion. So, what do you think about digimodernism, the failure of coherent discourse, and the general Death of Postmodernism meme?


Your tactics leave much to be desired, Aklo. Subtly calling me a troll, asking direct questions irrelevant to my replies in attempt to "call me out," etc. Look, dude, I get it. You're not a fan of JK. Join the club. But there's a far more exclusive club out there just waiting for its first member, and all I can say is, "keep trying".

JK
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#45017 - 12/16/10 01:48 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Jason King]
Aklo Offline
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 Quote:
Look, dude, I get it. You're not a fan of JK. Join the club.

Not at all, we are going to be best pals once we get past the introductory bonobo boning. But I made a huge mistake about the context, I thought your thingie was supposed to have some real relation to postmodernism, which (if you have read this thread, you will see) is itself a hilarious topic for misunderstanding and shit-throwing here, well worth bouncing. But I was wrong, so I switched back over to the thread created by "The Dead Idea", someone's fake retard character from one of our wicked-stepsister sites. (At least some of,) these goofy-unpleasant phrases I throw out, in a normal browser at least, tend to be links. Capiche?

Now, seriously though, here, in this context: You know enough about postmodernism to steal its name while disclaiming its content. I think your reasoning may be useful in advancing the discussion of whether Matthew is right about LaVey or just wrong about Modernism, or what. So give! Why postmodernism, if not intended to mean, retarded?

 Quote:
Subtly

Mom! he called me "subtil" !!!

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#45021 - 12/16/10 02:17 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Diavolo Offline
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You think it is possible to debate here without too much emotional involvement? I'm not sure if you guys met before but the way you construct your posts, it seems he once took your lunch-money.

D.

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#45029 - 12/16/10 03:53 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Diavolo]
Aklo Offline
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 Quote:
You think it is possible to debate here without too much emotional involvement?

Do you think it's possible to give a thorough criticism to a philosophical work without the author taking it personally and acting all insulted and shit? I do, if the author is a superior being with real insights into the inner workings of reality and so on. "Elite" isn't a club, it's a quality of personal freedom.

But what you may be mistaking for emotional involvement is just a bit of fun with mammalian politics. I don't really have much invested in the question of what "postmodern" is supposed to mean, or even the idea of a better bible. I've just been relaxing and letting some of the things I do care about ferment a bit, to keep from getting too attached there.

We all have faults, but I think our purpose here ought to be to turn them into strengths. Throwing shit at things and seeing what might stick is a good exercise to help this along.

...

And now back to our regularly scheduled program:

Do you think LaVey's philosophy can be described as Modernist or "Avant Garde"? If not, why not?

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#45030 - 12/16/10 03:54 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Jason King]
TheInsane Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Jason King
Just so further straw men are avoided, it should be clear that the usage of the designator "postmodern" is a reference to moving the idea of Satanism beyond the "modern" (i.e. LaVeyan), and NOT a reference to the school of thought so-called. The work defines itself, and attempts to baste it in the juices of unconnected philosophies is to fail to be truly critical of the thing in question.

Postmodern Satanism is an attempt to offer a proactive vision of the Satanic philosophy, one which does not depend on the Judeo-Christian model for the interpretation of its labels. Now granted, this cannot be avoided entirely, given the historical development of the term "satan," however, it can be done ontologically, which is the entire point of the volume. LaVey was incapable of doing this, which is why I have moved beyond his reactionary model towards an understanding of the Adversary as an evolutionary hypostasis, rather than the "other team's bad guy".

JK


I think this is exactly what Satanism needs. hardy has any religion made such an effort to distance themselves from a religion while still talking about it all the time.

Now I havent read JK's book yet (just got it yesterday - gotta say the font size is annoying just flipping through it) but I have enjoyed quite a few of the you tube videos posted.

I havent gotten a good enough grasp on "postmodern Satanism" to exactly know where I stand in relation to it. However I have throughout enjoyed the metaphysical theories and I think the aim is definitely in the right direction.

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#45039 - 12/16/10 06:02 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: TheInsane]
Aklo Offline
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 Quote:
Now I havent read JK's book yet (just got it yesterday - gotta say the font size is annoying just flipping through it) but I have enjoyed quite a few of the you tube videos posted.


Yeah he's definitely more fun in mixed media than cold print. Kind of reminds me of OrganicKarate that way, only to a different degree.

Here's a video that nominally addresses this modern / postmodern question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvQX3PLXyDU

But don't doze off, it's actually mostly a rant against something around the corner that calls itself "Modern".
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#45041 - 12/16/10 07:09 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Jason King]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



To Jason,

Thanks for returning to discuss your work and welcome to the 600C. I do have a couple of questions in relation to your work. They are:

• Why on earth did you choose such a culturally and historically loaded word like Postmodern for your book title? Yes, I now know that you want to give the impression that your work somehow supersedes the “modern” Satanism of LaVey, but using that word Postmodern is like stepping into a goddamn mine field.
• How can Satan be revised or amended ontologically? Its meaning is constructed from the Judeo-Christian system, within which it functions and draws its historical and social meaning on the one hand, as you have mentioned; and on the other hand, is adopted by each as a symbol or signifier, according to the needs, of the individual. I am not sure how this sign can be torn apart and rebuilt with new universal elements without becoming purely mythical, considering the fact that the original sign and its context was mythical to begin with?

Anyway the book has caught my attention and I will read it when I get a chance.

I have to be honest with you though and say I am a big supporter of LaVey’s and I will actively work towards maintaining the definitions he has established in his works.

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#45043 - 12/16/10 07:28 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Diavolo Offline
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Sure I do think one can give criticism to certain ideas without the subject shitting their pants. It depends on how mature the author is, or how seriously he takes criticism. But, overall, I do think the strongest form of criticism is based upon arguments and not upon juvenile tactics. My experience tells me that most people criticize not because they think the other is wrong but because they can’t stand the thought that someone might not agree that they are right. To most people affirmation is a drug.

Answering the question about Lavey; personally I hardly care about him. If I had to define him I'd call it pop-psychology but what do I know?

D.

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#45054 - 12/17/10 03:09 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
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Hmm, that should have been pop-philosophy of course. Never drink and type.

D.

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#45067 - 12/17/10 02:17 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Diavolo]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Never drink and type.

It worked for Hunter.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#45071 - 12/17/10 02:59 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
To Jason, Why on earth did you choose such a culturally and historically loaded word like Postmodern for your book title? Yes, I now know that you want to give the impression that your work somehow supersedes the “modern” Satanism of LaVey, but using that word Postmodern is like stepping into a goddamn mine field.

I react to the word "postmodernism" like Dracula to the cross. Comes from too many years in academia enduring bullshit terms like "methodology" and "paradigm".

And "modern" is already a problematic [there's another one!] word, because it can refer specifically to various, but not necessarily the same artistic periods. Or it can be vaguely generic, i.e. what isn't obsolete or old-fashioned. There is a pretty good discussion, including of the P-word, here.

The study of what makes a good/bad book [or film] title should be fun; someone probably has already done it. I have often said that the best thing about the Satanic Bible was its name. Anton could have filled it up with almost anything and that title would still blow Pleasantvillian fuses. Indeed it has continued to do so through several generations, despite its being written for a late-60s readience.

Two of the books on my shelves with gruntling titles are Sex and Society in Nazi Germany [How could you go wrong with this?] and my alltimefavorite title: Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds. I don't even have to read it to be turbed by it.

Ian Fleming was a great titler; J.R.R. Tolkien was not. No one is quite clear on exactly who "the" Lord of the Rings is, or which are "the" Two Towers, or who or what a "Silmarillion" is. At least Lamont Cranston knows ...

Indeed the P-word is so loathed that JK could probably supercharge sales by retitling his book Satanism: The Extermination of Postmodernism. Or he could indulge in shameless exotique: Postsatanism.

I really should at this point; this post has lost any pre/posttense to coherence.
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#45075 - 12/17/10 03:32 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: ]
Aklo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
Why on earth did you choose such a culturally and historically loaded word like Postmodern for your book title?

Dude. Watch the flick I dropped above. Consider seriously the possibility that by "postmodern" he means little more than "since I got sick of MCOS".

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
If I had to define him I'd call it pop-psychology but what do I know? ... that should have been pop-philosophy of course. Never drink and type.

What would, the difference be? I agree with you either way, in some sense. My feeling might be that, when we stick the word "pop" in front of something, it hardly matters what we follow it with. All we really mean is "kitsch". Which I suppose could place his work firmly in the postmodern camp? Or not...

But if you feel it isn't "pop psychology" after all, then: why not?

 Originally Posted By: Michael A. Aquino
I have often said that the best thing about the Satanic Bible was its name. Anton could have filled it up with almost anything and that title would still blow Pleasantvillian fuses. Indeed it has continued to do so through several generations, despite its being written for a late-60s readience.


Excellent point! Here's some brainiac with a thesis due, talking about the whole package:

 Originally Posted By: Joshua Gunn, "Modern Occult Rhetoric"
Unlike its content, the packaging and formal characteristics of The Satanic Bible are unique, and the book’s importance as an element of occult discourse has much more to do with its uniqueness as totem or a fetishized object in popular culture than with its 272 pages of directives. With LaVey’s remarks about the fantasy function of his bible in mind, one is drawn to the style of the book – which is written in an obvious tongue-in-cheek manner – and more significantly to its noteworthy cover. The front of the popular paperback edition features a minimalist design, the title and author in a simple white font on a completely black background. Underneath the text appears the ‘Sigil of Baphomet’ in purple, which is the representation of a goat head, contained by an inverted Pentagram or encircled star (see Figure 1). Each point of the Pentagram accommodates the goat’s horns, ears and chin. Around the Pentagram and goat are two circles in which appear the ubiquitous occult symbols – Hebrew characters – spelling ‘Leviathan’. The back of the paperback is equally striking. Over a black background appears a photograph of LaVey, his glaring eyes, bald head, and meticulously groomed goatee encircled by a large Sigil of Baphomet, such that he appears horned.

In most contemporary depictions of Satanism in books and television programs, the cover of The Satanic Bible is often presented as a visual surrogate for the practice of Satanism, and sometimes for the whole of occultism. This focus on the cover marks a formal mystification that models the logic of commodity exchange in late capitalism: the focus on the book’s cover is an erasure of its content, an eclipse of the book’s use-value by its sign- and transaction-value. A typical example of this kind of commodity occultism is found in a video program, popular among charismatic and evangelic Christian groups, titled Devil Worship: The Rise of Satanism (1989) In the opening segments of the video, LaVey and the Church of Satan are introduced through a series of shots in which The Satanic Bible frequently appears. A woman with a British accent narrates the imagery over a characteristically ‘creepy,’ synthesized soundtrack (see Table 1). The final comment in these series of shots illustrates how The Satanic Bible is rendered into a visual fetish, its contents ignored and deliberately mystified in order to promote a Christian message of redemption: Although it is the case that The Satanic Bible attacks the notion of purity as an impossible ideal, it is not the case that the book categorically opposes ‘goodness’ and ‘selfless behavior’, nor is it the case that the book forwards a belief in the supernatural. In the video presentation, the focus is on the formal aspects of the book at the expense of its actual content.

It's all about the marketing, in the end, isn't it?

 Quote:
Indeed the P-word is so loathed that JK could probably supercharge sales by retitling his book Satanism: The Extermination of Postmodernism. Or he could indulge in shameless exotique: Postsatanism.

I'd like to suggest leaving us out of it altogether, and going with I Was a Teen-Aged Postmodernist. Or perhaps, I Took Modernism's Lunch Money and Kicked Its Ass Anyway.

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#45077 - 12/17/10 03:43 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Diavolo Offline
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Na, I think pop-philosophy is closer to how I see it. It has some resemblance with pop-art which, not surprisingly, also did have its high-times during that period.

Pop-art was reactionary and did bring art back to the people; dumbing it down to their level and embracing the mundane and kitsch.

In a way one can see many similarities between what artists did during these days and how Satanism presented itself.

D.

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#45080 - 12/17/10 04:31 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Diavolo]
Aklo Offline
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Hmmm, opinions anyone. Is kitsch Modern or Postmodern? Is Andy Warhol kitsch or, something else? My brain needs serious improvement here.
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#45081 - 12/17/10 04:48 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Diavolo]
Fnord Offline
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To me, The Satanic Bible is/was a door. To understand it is to seek to apply it... religiously. :0)

It's non systemic in approach (ie, it doesn't make up a bunch of stuff to fill in the gaps of what it doesn't know) and is a good (ok, great) foundational hand book. Revisiting it often while applying basic principles is to reveal the wisdom contained within.

Not arguing with you though, D. Just my opinion.

I'm resistant to anything that tries to paint me into a box philosophically. Most of the big questions will simply remain unanswered. A lot of people will claim that they know how it all works, they'll make up names for it all and they'll package it in a way that makes sense to them.

Personally, I'm the consummate adventurer. I like going down the rat holes but I haven't been down one yet that I couldn't find my way out of. TSB is just general enough and intriguing enough that I return to it and re-read it after every adventure.

Anyone who is inclined to cast it off as old news is likely not going to agree with me about its overall importance. That's okay though, I'm on this journey for ME, not to prove anything to anyone else and not to become the next voice in Satanism. I am where the rubber hits the road.

That turned into a semi rant about folks disregarding The Satanic Bible. Ah well, this thread is semi potpourri anyway.

To get back to the thread, I'd ask King about how, specifically, Satanism has evolved and how it should evolve? I suspect I know the answer but I'll ever be a proponent of core principles and direct, real world application of them.
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#45082 - 12/17/10 04:49 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Diavolo Offline
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I wouldn't consider Warhol kitsch. He might have elevated kitsch into an art form but it is art nevertheless. Is it postmodern? Some say it is the start of postmodernist art, some say it isn't.

It depends on whom you ask I suppose.

D.

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#45083 - 12/17/10 04:54 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
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I'm not saying TSB is worthless, it was what was required in that day and to many it might still be valuable.

I look at Satanism like playing on a pinball machine. TSB might, for some, be the coin which they need to start playing, but the most important part is not what got you playing, but that you keep on playing. Always trying to get that higher score.

D.

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#45084 - 12/17/10 04:55 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Fnord Offline
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Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Aklo
Hmmm, opinions anyone. Is kitsch Modern or Postmodern? Is Andy Warhol kitsch or, something else? My brain needs serious improvement here.


Andy Warhol was a brilliant designer in my opinion. He had an excellent eye for positive and negative space as well as an excellent eye for evoking emotion through color choice.

That said, I wouldn't call his work kitsch but I don't like much of it either.

By the way, I'd call kitsch post modern as most folks who lived in the modern era (Upton Sinclair and the like) were struggling for survival which made tiki inspired salt and pepper shakers rather an indulgence.

Don't anyone freak out on me though. I haven't read the laundry list of required books prerequisite to having an opinion on the matter... but I do study art and literature (where the action is).
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#45090 - 12/17/10 06:17 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Fnord]
Aklo Offline
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Thanks!

 Quote:
I haven't read the laundry list of required books prerequisite to having an opinion on the matter

Yeah, me neither. Don't sweat it, we learn as we go. I'm often stupid about things I haven't studied properly, but I don't usually stay that way.

From what I can tell so far, kitsch seems to bridge the two movements. It begins as a bourgeouis phenomenon, where the prole who has moved up in the world is sold cheap mass-produced imitations of the trappings of real wealth to help them signify their success to one another. High art sniffs at this sort of stuff, of course, but as particular bits of it become outdated some of them pick up a cult fandom in various subcultures. So at this point we are definitely talking about Modernism.

But as Postmodernism comes around, the trappings of kitsch are subverted and incorporated into new forms, becoming what seems to be properly called "camp". There's a whole side topic here, in that the camp motif apparently originally developed as an array of signals intended to seem innocent and even highbrow to the average observer, but actually used as a sexual signaling system for closeted homosexuals. This includes not only the retro boozhwa crap but also dress styles, tones of voice, and other affectations.

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#45123 - 12/18/10 10:57 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Jason King Offline
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Wow. Such an intellectual forum we have here. Couldn't even get past the title. "It brings up bad memories of my childhood," and such. "Oh noes, dee big phont hurtes me I's". Never even considered some of that was the damned point to begin with. And to the fucktard who said this was in any way related to MCoS (I'm guessing the clueless Altoid), you can cross check pub-dates with reg-dates if you're not too busy with that donkey's cock in your mouth.

JK
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#45124 - 12/18/10 11:19 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Jason King]
Jake999 Offline
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Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
And to the fucktard who said this was in any way related to MCoS (I'm guessing the clueless Altoid), you can cross check pub-dates with reg-dates if you're not too busy with that donkey's cock in your mouth.

JK


Wow. I'm so pleased to see you bring such an adult level of communication to the The 600 Club. It's sure to engender a whole lot of confidence in your work.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#45126 - 12/18/10 11:42 AM Postmodern Satanism [Re: Jason King]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
Wow. Such an intellectual forum we have here. Couldn't even get past the title. "It brings up bad memories of my childhood," and such. "Oh noes, dee big phont hurtes me I's". Never even considered some of that was the damned point to begin with.


Well, to be fair, you only have one person's take on your work from here. Don't be too quick to assume that we all feel the same way about it.

Personally, I'm working my through it and have taken cues from it to look into some things. I'll offer an honest response to it when I'm done with it and have thought about it for a bit.

Otherwise, Jake makes a valid point in my opinion.
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#45127 - 12/18/10 11:56 AM Re: Postmodern Satanism [Re: Fnord]
Opacus Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 23
Loc: Hell
I read through the .pdf.

Unless I'm reading a technical manual (which I often have to do for work) I don't like things to be what I consider "overly intellectual".

It usually means that the author doesn't really have as much to say as he/she thinks he/she does.

Personally I thought it was overly intellectual occult word-salad.

But that's just me.

O.


Edited by Opacus (12/18/10 11:57 AM)
Edit Reason: Spelling

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#45129 - 12/18/10 11:59 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Jake999]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
And to the fucktard who said this was in any way related to MCoS (I'm guessing the clueless Altoid), you can cross check pub-dates with reg-dates if you're not too busy with that donkey's cock in your mouth.

JK


Wow. I'm so pleased to see you bring such an adult level of communication to the The 600 Club. It's sure to engender a whole lot of confidence in your work.


I give as I take. If I were being really juvenile, I might point to the two "the"'s and start calling you names. But I'm not, so I won't.

JK

p.s. if you're really scratching your head on the severity of my response, read Altoid's rejoinders to OK, and we'll see who's on point here.
_________________________



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#45130 - 12/18/10 12:02 PM Re: Postmodern Satanism [Re: Opacus]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm reading it and admit I occasionally have to check a word. Maybe it is because English isn't my native tongue or maybe I'm just too ignorant at a certain level. Still, I don't dislike the fact that a certain text might require something from me. After all, improving is a part of the game.

Satanism should not fall for "No child left behind" crap.

D.

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#45134 - 12/18/10 12:54 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Jason King]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Aklo is relatively new here and as Fnord pointed out, one person's take on your work is only that of one person, and is not indicative of how the entire site feels about it. Passing judgement on an entire forum because of one member? Really? The same goes for an individual's actions. I have not had the chance to read Postmodern, so I cannot comment on its content or how it's presented.

General response to all:
This site is not the place for ax-grinding against one another, at least in the public sphere. Nor is airing grievances from other sites or from long-standing grudges. Attacking a piece of work is not congruent to attacking the author. A person's standing on other forums is irrelevant to how they are treated on The 600 Club. I don't give a damn if someone is a Libertine III from MCoS, or a moderator on SIN. When you join, you start on the same playing field as the idiots who only want to know how to practice Black Masses and how to raise the dead. One's reputation might give them a leg up (or not), but in the end you still need to build yourself up from the ground. Just ask Dr. Aquino--he certainly has not been spared from criticism of his beliefs and publications.

Should it be any other way?
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Nothing is sacred.

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#45137 - 12/18/10 01:31 PM Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: Jason King]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I would like to echo Nems statement that Aklo speaks for nobody but Aklo, and go further by stating it seems this particular user has something to prove here. The only ones that speak for 'us' are wearing blue, and even we do not nearly agree on everything.

Some have said they find your work overly wordy, and I honestly agree but that does not diminish from the content. (although admittedly I have only made it through the first 30 pages or so) Some of us are quite pleased to see you here, and I for one hope you do not get drawn into childish bickering with those that seem to make it their forte.

This is the real deal, JK. This is not your usual forum full of retards and pretenders.Some of those that flourish on other Satanic venues are quickly torn to shreds in this place. I look forward to seeing how you fare among equals.


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#45141 - 12/18/10 02:03 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: Dan_Dread]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
I think, in my opinion, that Jason set the book up in that way on purpose. If you really don't know what is going on, ask, ya know? It's not that big of a deal. I keep a copy on my computer of Postmodern Satanism because I enjoy re-reading it and seeing the changes in my views were then (when I first read it) to now (after I've read it a couple times).

I have also been told I can be quite wordy. Perhaps not in the same ways that King is being told he is being wordy but there are reasons for being wordy. Of course, it is a double edged sword at times when someone says "eff it, I just can't get through it all". But I also find some of the books cited in his book to be things that I would love, at some point, dig into.

 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
General response to all:
This site is not the place for ax-grinding against one another, at least in the public sphere. Nor is airing grievances from other sites or from long-standing grudges. Attacking a piece of work is not congruent to attacking the author. A person's standing on other forums is irrelevant to how they are treated on The 600 Club. I don't give a damn if someone is a Libertine III from MCoS, or a moderator on SIN. When you join, you start on the same playing field as the idiots who only want to know how to practice Black Masses and how to raise the dead. One's reputation might give them a leg up (or not), but in the end you still need to build yourself up from the ground. Just ask Dr. Aquino--he certainly has not been spared from criticism of his beliefs and publications.

Should it be any other way?


I certainly agree. We withhold the same standards at SIN and while I can not entirely speak for MCoS, EVERYONE is lain out in such a fashion. Perhaps not as brassily, but there are times I have seen a member lose his lunch money or two. Myself included. Something, as I have said before, I respect about this site is the different inputs on things posted here.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
This is the real deal, JK. This is not your usual forum full of retards and pretenders.Some of those that flourish on other Satanic venues are quickly torn to shreds in this place. I look forward to seeing how you fare among equals.


Are you suggesting that The 600 Club is the only place that has highly thought provoking Satanists? I've already heard the story of you being around Satanic forums for years.. but didn't you ALSO have a rough beginning? Going from blue to white to blue. Can't say that you haven't. Obviously somewhere down the line someone thought that you may have been the retard floating around in their forums. It's something I know that you don't care about but at the same time, trashing the members of other forums by calling them retards (even though on the other two forums that I have seen you on, you've said they retain quite a bit of useful members). Just curious on your spin of the matter?


Edited by OrgasmicKarmatic (12/18/10 02:19 PM)
_________________________
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45148 - 12/18/10 03:05 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Blah, blah, blah, you take one step forward and two steps back.

Yes, this is the best place of satanic thought.
If you didn't feel the same way, your ass would stay at the forum you moderate at. You come here because you can't get the same things any place else on the web.

After what Nem said, you still want to go crawling into Dan's personal business about his standings. You have no knowledge about the situation or what happened to the person who deblued him. You should shut up about this shit now, you are way outta line.

Morgan



_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#45149 - 12/18/10 03:11 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: Morgan]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
No no no. Dan has spoken with me personally about this said demotion. I am not trying to get up in his business. It is something that was exchanged between the two of us and not meant to bring up BS from the past. I was curious of why he would call these forums that he is also a part of full of retards here and say something quite the opposite at the same forums.

And also, you are right. The place that I admin at is a completely different type of place. It is a networking site, NOT a Satanic forum. Therefore, in the way of Satanic forums, this IS the best place to be.

Make no mistake, I was not trying to crawl up Dan's ass about what happened previously. I will reiterate, that the topic was something that I have conversed with Dan about personally.
_________________________
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45150 - 12/18/10 03:13 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: Morgan]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: OrgasmicKarmatic

Are you suggesting that The 600 Club is the only place that has highly thought provoking Satanists?

I think the quality of the content here vs anywhere else speaks for itself.
 Quote:

Obviously somewhere down the line someone thought that you may have been the retard floating around in their forums.

I would say that that was never the case. My ideas and opinions certainly lead to many heated discussions, but I earned my place here precisely because I am a cut above the rabble.
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#45151 - 12/18/10 03:17 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"Make no mistake, I was not trying to crawl up Dan's ass about what happened previously. I will reiterate, that the topic was something that I have conversed with Dan about personally."

Then there was no need to re-air a dirty laundry private conversation in public after it was already address by Nemesis not to do such things. The fact that you stated it after his post of welcoming Jason to the forum was kinda petty not that you care.

M.

Oh, and btw, what happened to Dan in the past was not a majority consensus. Lots of people were not happy with it.
End of story.


Edited by Morgan (12/18/10 03:19 PM)
Edit Reason: added ps
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#45152 - 12/18/10 03:17 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: Dan_Dread]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
Yes, the content here being not a new site DOES speak for itself but there are many other places in which individuals reside online that have much to offer too. Is this not the same reason that you join different forums? To see what they also have to offer, even if in the end what they have to offer is nothing?

I must apologize for what I should have worded in another fashion when it came to this said demotion. So, for what it's worth, my apologies for how it was worded. If I could go back farther than a year perhaps I would understand exactly what it was that happened. This was not an attack; merely curiosity for the differences between here and there and your opinion changes with each venue.
_________________________
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45153 - 12/18/10 03:23 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: Morgan]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
"Make no mistake, I was not trying to crawl up Dan's ass about what happened previously. I will reiterate, that the topic was something that I have conversed with Dan about personally."

Then there was no need to re-air a dirty laundry private conversation in public after it was already address by Nemesis not to do such things. The fact that you stated it after his post of welcoming Jason to the forum was kinda petty not that you care.

M.

Oh, and btw, what happened to Dan in the past was not a majority consensus. Lots of people were not happy with it.
End of story.


Fair enough. However, I misunderstand about the comment you make of me putting that up there after he welcomed Jason to the board? I believe that the only thing I said was:

 Originally Posted By: OrgasmicKarmatic
Welcome Jason.

Have fun and try to let some of them keep their lunch money.


If it is in reference to him "accepting" Jason here at 600.. what does that matter? Those two things do not relate. As far as I know, Dan has always had a respect for Jason. What does that have to do with me?
_________________________
I am a ghost.x
http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45155 - 12/18/10 03:34 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
You need to stop bringing out dirty laundry. Dan is what he is. Nobody, and in this case this means you, has any business speculating into Dan's, or any other member's, status. Not now. Not ever.

This is cheap gossip with little bearing on any matter at hand. Dan's standing is unquestioned. Were it any other way, he'd know.

Between this and your recent post about karma, which has been accurately described as a curiously RHP brand of fitting a square peg into a round hole by the use of copious amounts of verbiage for lube, you're standing in a hole and heading for China.

Please take some time to think about how you would like this to turn out.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#45157 - 12/18/10 03:38 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: OrgasmicKarmatic
Yes, the content here being not a new site DOES speak for itself but there are many other places in which individuals reside online that have much to offer too

My comment to Mr. King was in regards to the level of intellectual content here, especially as it pertains to a Satanic perspective vs other places, which is significant.

Not to say the rest of the web is devoid of intelligent Satanic life, just that here there is a lot less sifting through chaff to find the wheat.
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ADM
ideological vandal

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#45160 - 12/18/10 03:40 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"If it is in reference to him "accepting" Jason here at 600.. what does that matter? Those two things do not relate. As far as I know, Dan has always had a respect for Jason. What does that have to do with me?"

CHrist on a crutch girl do you actually read what you post or does it just spew from your fingers:
The below is taken from your own post just a few comments above this one:

Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
This is the real deal, JK. This is not your usual forum full of retards and pretenders.Some of those that flourish on other Satanic venues are quickly torn to shreds in this place. I look forward to seeing how you fare among equals.


Are you suggesting that The 600 Club is the only place that has highly thought provoking Satanists? I've already heard the story of you being around Satanic forums for years.. but didn't you ALSO have a rough beginning? Going from blue to white to blue. Can't say that you haven't. Obviously somewhere down the line someone thought that you may have been the retard floating around in their forums. It's something I know that you don't care about but at the same time, trashing the members of other forums by calling them retards (even though on the other two forums that I have seen you on, you've said they retain quite a bit of useful members). Just curious on your spin of the matter?



Get it?
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#45161 - 12/18/10 03:41 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
My recent post about "karma" has little to do with what comes with the stigma of the idealistic approach of karma. It has been suggested that karma is merely a mystics approach to cause and effect. I do not see anyone rioting because such a topic was brought up. Everyone is bring their opinions to the table as what they think about the topic. This has not started any arguments, and was not aimed to start any arguments. It was something written for those to be able to hash out if there really IS a difference between karma and cause and effect. I see no problems with posting such a thread if the meaning behind posting the thread was not malicious or meant to cause problems.

Also, if you read through my opinion of karma, you will notice that I state that I do NOT believe that karma is a place for Satanism. Mainly through the backing that karma = guilt ... guilt sent out with the original intent to break someone tends to come back to it's owner. I am not trying to fit karma into Satanism. I am merely backing up the idea that what may happen in response to a ritual, such as the back fire of said ritual, is the fault of the magician that is allowing their will to work with and against them. In the world of cause and effect, this would mean, you mess with the wrong person, you just might end up on the shit end of the stick.

I value opinions on things such as this and have gathered some insightful responses on my thread. As I understand it, I have not created any problems on the forum by posting that thread in any kind of way.
_________________________
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45167 - 12/18/10 03:51 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: Morgan]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
"If it is in reference to him "accepting" Jason here at 600.. what does that matter? Those two things do not relate. As far as I know, Dan has always had a respect for Jason. What does that have to do with me?"

CHrist on a crutch girl do you actually read what you post or does it just spew from your fingers:
The below is taken from your own post just a few comments above this one:

Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
This is the real deal, JK. This is not your usual forum full of retards and pretenders.Some of those that flourish on other Satanic venues are quickly torn to shreds in this place. I look forward to seeing how you fare among equals.


Are you suggesting that The 600 Club is the only place that has highly thought provoking Satanists? I've already heard the story of you being around Satanic forums for years.. but didn't you ALSO have a rough beginning? Going from blue to white to blue. Can't say that you haven't. Obviously somewhere down the line someone thought that you may have been the retard floating around in their forums. It's something I know that you don't care about but at the same time, trashing the members of other forums by calling them retards (even though on the other two forums that I have seen you on, you've said they retain quite a bit of useful members). Just curious on your spin of the matter?



Get it?


Yes I get what you are writing now. Connecting the two, I didn't. Perhaps I just had to be shown. Thanks for the connection. I DO pay attention to what I write. I just didn't connect the two threads.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
My comment to Mr. King was in regards to the level of intellectual content here, especially as it pertains to a Satanic perspective vs other places, which is significant.

Not to say the rest of the web is devoid of intelligent Satanic life, just that here there is a lot less sifting through chaff to find the wheat.


Fair enough.
_________________________
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45180 - 12/18/10 04:40 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
HeimiricIX Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 75
Loc: Mexico City.
A little offtopic, hope it's ok.

A personal advice to OK that you are free to take or to totally ignore. I may also be wrong.

Take it easy. As I've been reading your posts you usually try to defend yourself a little too Much and as I've been seing around, there is nothing you should defend yourself against. Most of the negative posts on your behave come from you wanting to defend yourself and your ideas TOO much instead of trying to figure out why they wrote to you like that in the first place (specially if it comes from The Blue Man Lodge).

Like with what Morgan just told you, you may have payed attention on what you wrote but you didn't kept in mind all that it was involved making your further discussion wrong, next time simply reread as many times as you need what they are telling you and also all opinions involved. There is no shame in that and most of the wisest people on earth are there because they do exactly that.

This I am not saying you should not defend your views here, just that you should do it with wisdom, there is also and sometimes no need to express all of your views, sometimes it is smarter if you only toss one or two there and see the reaction.

In the end take it easy and enjoy your stay. After all this is by far the only worthwhile forum I have seen.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way.

Best
_________________________
HeimiricIX - Made you look

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#45182 - 12/18/10 04:57 PM Re: Enough with the childish topic renames. [Re: HeimiricIX]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
I am beginning to see this as well X. You've never given me a reason to believe that what you have written is meant to offend me. Sometimes I do tend to over analyze. I have repeated myself several times on the fact that there are times that I just don't grasp things right away and I am seeing these are the periods of time in which I really should step back, re-read over and over again until I do "get it". However, it is a two way road. You can only get so far when something is stone walled.

I can also see that constantly defending my threads almost makes it seem as though I am not practicing what I preach by stone walling other people. Taking offense to things that I should not take offense to. I can see that the constantly defending things can make it seem like I am trying to prove I am right and no one can tell me different. Which is not the case, I have changed my opinions on things more than once or twice due to things brought to my attention and I do try to back down or apologize when I find that I am wrong.

As for the "Blue Lodge", I take what they have to say very seriously because even throughout the "harshness" or non harshness of their posts, each of them have something to say that I can take from. Whether it is them pointing out something I have done wrong or telling me to back off when I really should. I won't silence myself but I will take more care in what it is I say in reference to certain ideas of others and take others opinions more into consideration to avoid being a hypocrite. As I said in my ooze, "When you have decided what side of the line that you want to be on, you've become your own extremist".

I never wanted to choose what side of the line to step on until I had fully formed my opinions and made an educated step to the side from the "truck". Which is probably why a lot of my posts do not come out right. Even if they are written in ways that people can read them, they come out as if I am trying to be completely impartial when mainly, I am not apt to go on either side until I know for sure what either side is about.

I am enjoying my time here. With or without responses that match my perspectives.
_________________________
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45189 - 12/18/10 05:22 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Diavolo]
Aklo Offline
member


Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
Christ, we sweeped this thread just yestiddy ...

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Pop-art was reactionary and did bring art back to the people; dumbing it down to their level and embracing the mundane and kitsch.

In a way one can see many similarities between what artists did during these days and how satanism presented itself.

Yep, I get that, I'm enjoying studying it and I agree with you 100% .

But what would "pop psychology" be, and why wouldn't that describe a lot of LaVey's magickal content extremely well?

_________________________
Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#45211 - 12/19/10 05:15 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I wouldn't consider Warhol kitsch. He might have elevated kitsch into an art form but it is art nevertheless. Is it postmodern? Some say it is the start of postmodernist art, some say it isn't.

It depends on whom you ask I suppose.

D.

Art.. kitsch.. sometimes the borders aren't that clear.
But I know what I like... Not a great fan of Warhol, but I like René Margritte. Also have a weak spot for extreme taxidermy as the likes of Scott a.a Bibus.

Perhaps this tread has degenerated into senseless bickering for that matter.. Personal likings and such.

About JK, to me he is fairly unknown. Perhaps not that surprising considering the fact I seldom roam the internet to find "Fellow Satanists". At least he can write, perhaps not that fluently and very thaught-out in comparisation with others from what I can gather.. Also made a few videos about... what was it.. postmodern Satanism? If he feels the need to explain himself.. whatever. I think posting videos of yourself "explaining"..things.. on youtube is unproductive mental masturbation. Perhaps not that unproductive to some here, but then again, it's just me.

No need for investigations when I don't like a certain taste.. you know like.. Brussel sprouts (I actually love them, just an example). I do not need to study the whole cycle of growth, production procedures and other thingies related with it. If I simply don't like the taste then I'm not going to eat it. Force-feeding it down the throat will only result in having the feeder being covered in vomit.

Btw, not adressed to you personally D, just picked you out for having somewhat the same view and providing a good base. Hope no hard feelings about it... I'll give you cookies and milk when you feel bad about it.. or was it milk and cookies?


Edited by Dimitri (12/19/10 05:20 AM)
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#45216 - 12/19/10 10:10 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Nemesis]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
Should it be any other way?


Of course not. Those who know me understand that I am a predator above all else, and if I can't handle myself here, well, I should probably pack my Satanic bags.

JK
_________________________



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#45217 - 12/19/10 10:18 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Dimitri]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
If he feels the need to explain himself.. whatever. I think posting videos of yourself "explaining"..things.. on youtube is unproductive mental masturbation.


As opposed to what exactly? Posting replies to threads on a forum "explaining things"? Dude you just stuck a big fat finger in your own eye with that one.

JK
_________________________



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#45224 - 12/19/10 10:58 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Jason King]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
As opposed to what exactly? Posting replies to threads on a forum "explaining things"? Dude you just stuck a big fat finger in your own eye with that one.

You wrote a book about postmodern Satanism, it is in my honest opinion that one book should be sufficient to share and explain the ideas sprouted in your mind. The need of making x videos, highlighting certain aspects of your ideas make me think of mental masturbation and the impression you haven't sorted it out THAT well.

No offense intended, but I prefer Micheals approach of putting up an e-book online and mentioning it will grow longer and be edited when needed. It is a sign of admitting being the "student for life" instead of choosing to be a (false) mentor.
Your videos.. well some seem informative and others.. well... they come across as whining..

And I do hope you are of the predator kind... I like to have a bit of a well-mannered fight...but I also like to get down and play very dirty..
Let me just wiggle a bit with my juicy entrecotes...
But then again, chickens and turkeys are also considered predators towards worms..


Edited by Dimitri (12/19/10 11:09 AM)
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#45229 - 12/19/10 11:50 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Dimitri]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
You wrote a book about postmodern Satanism, it is in my honest opinion that one book should be sufficient to share and explain the ideas sprouted in your mind. The need of making x videos, highlighting certain aspects of your ideas make me think of mental masturbation and the impression you haven't sorted it out THAT well.


How many of my videos retread what was presented in print? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

No person can bury their ideas in any one volume (or number of tomes, for that matter), regardless of how great they may be.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
No offense intended, but I prefer Micheals approach of putting up an e-book online and mentioning it will grow longer and be edited when needed. It is a sign of admitting being the "student for life" instead of choosing to be a (false) mentor.
Your videos.. well some seem informative and others.. well... they come across as whining..

And I do hope you are of the predator kind... I like to have a bit of a well-mannered fight...but I also like to get down and play very dirty..
Let me just wiggle a bit with my juicy entrecotes...
But then again, chickens and turkeys are also considered predators towards worms..


I'll grant you this, Michael Aquino is what we like to call an ICON. Not kissing ass, just tellin' it like it is. One of my biggest disappointments on 600 thus far is that I haven't been able to exchange ideas with him due to being engaged with several clowns (count yourself in on that). And just so some pissy mod doesn't get all stoopid, the bitch called me a chicken.

JK
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#45231 - 12/19/10 12:00 PM The mask of zorro. [Re: Jason King]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
I'll grant you this, Michael Aquino is what we like to call an ICON. Not kissing ass, just tellin' it like it is. One of my biggest disappointments on 600 thus far is that I haven't been able to exchange ideas with him due to being engaged with several clowns (count yourself in on that).

Well... I tend not to deal very politely with internet Satanists. Unless you manage to stick around a bit longer and can convince me otherwise instead of the (empty?) posturing as displayed in your posts upon entering. I do like a guy with some hair on his teeth, but I want to remind you you are in the lair of someone else. Since you consider yourself as a true Satanist, I don't have to remind you of that rule.. right?

The time of playing at the MCoS is over, welcome to the grown-ups. Take a cigar and sit down. Making a scene would probably have you locked up in isolation by our huge-ass butler or having a blunderbuss emptied in your face.

And the clowns comment.. you know.. like attracts alike.. right? For your information, I have been wearing a lot of masks; the one of captain spaulting, plague doctors mask and perhaps the one that made me mostly famous in certain areas: the leather mask of kutulu.
 Quote:
And just so some pissy mod doesn't get all stoopid, the bitch called me a chicken.

Pok pok pedeik?

But I must appease to the will of the great names of the ones in green. Let us return at the topic at hand, shall we?
I would like to ask you to give your stance on what you meant with postmodern Satanism for those who are not familiar with your ideas.


Edited by Dimitri (12/19/10 12:09 PM)
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#45245 - 12/19/10 02:20 PM Re: The mask of zorro. [Re: Dimitri]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Well... I tend not to deal very politely with internet Satanists. Unless you manage to stick around a bit longer


Longer on what? The internet? I hope you see the self-defeat you've managed here.

JK
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#45247 - 12/19/10 02:34 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Jason King]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1753
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Of course not. Those who know me understand that I am a predator above all else, and if I can't handle myself here, well, I should probably pack my Satanic bags.

Just to make sure I didn’t misunderstand the meaning of “Predator,” I looked it up. It means “1. An Animal the preys on others. 2. A person who exploits others.
However, I don’t agree with those definitions entirely. To me a Predator is an animal (that includes humans) that preys on others but for a well defined reason, which is usually for food in order to survive.
Predators in the animal kingdom hunt not for pleasure and self gratification but to survive physically.
My point here is that I do not understand your analogy of being a Predator above all else. Does it mean that you view us here and others elsewhere as some kind of Prey? If that is the case I would offer that we are just a bunch of people discussing ideas and to simply prey on those ideas simply for the sake of sport, or to exploit them without offering a productive counter argument doesn’t make much sense.

 Quote:
I'll grant you this, Michael Aquino is what we like to call an ICON. Not kissing ass, just tellin' it like it is. One of my biggest disappointments on 600 thus far is that I haven't been able to exchange ideas with him due to being engaged with several clowns (count yourself in on that). And just so some pissy mod doesn't get all stoopid, the bitch called me a chicken.


Personally I don’t agree with much of Dr. Aquino’s ideas regarding “Set,” but generally speaking, I find him to be a great asset to this site because of his insights in many other subjects. I do agree with your view of him as being an “ICON” of sorts.

From what I have seen, he is quite agreeable to having discussions on a wide variety of subjects and if you truly wished to have a discussion with him, all you would have to do is bring up a subject that is of interest to him.

Why would anyone waste time being engaged with individuals they view as “clowns” in a group when there is also an ICON available to discuss things with that one finds important; but in the same respect why would someone of Dr. Aquino’s standing take an interest in a person that is willing to continually engage with individuals that the person views as clowns?
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#45255 - 12/19/10 03:46 PM Re: The mask of zorro. [Re: Jason King]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
I find your lack of substance quite annoying.
Too bad the force is fictional, otherwise I would have taken your pants off from a distance whilst you were walking in a black ghetto.

But everyone knows palpatine dies at the end of the story.. after being thrown down...quite a distance... probably zapped to death also.. so far the most powerfull sithlord..

I'm placing bets here, I'll give it... 1 week if not I'll pay the participants my favourite beer.
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#45257 - 12/19/10 04:16 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Jason King]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
Michael Aquino is what we like to call an ICON.

Would that be this, this, this, or this? [And meet my pal Ollie.]



 Quote:
Not kissing ass, just tellin' it like it is.

At least not since the last time I got pulled over by a traffic cop.

 Quote:
One of my biggest disappointments on 600 thus far is that I haven't been able to exchange ideas with him due to being engaged with several clowns (count yourself in on that). And just so some pissy mod doesn't get all stoopid, the bitch called me a chicken.

I've hung around this Mos Eisley Cantina somewhat longer than I originally expected to because there are some very smart creatures here. Even the occasional jerks are [irritatingly, inconveniently, annoyingly] very smart jerks. This is a quite rare, and quite valuable opportunity for you to field-test your ideas against probably the strongest and sharpest criticism by cognizanti who have no personal axe to grind [or polish]. In my experience they are also willing to listen to, and be convinced by what you have to say if, as Dr. Frankenstein might observe, you can get it to sit up on the table.

While I'm happy to respond to you if I have an idea-on-point, there are others in the Cantina's dark corners who are wiser than myself in various topics. Just be careful not to get your arm hacked off by a lightsaber.
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#45259 - 12/19/10 04:30 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Asmedious]
Aklo Offline
member


Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
From what I have seen, he is quite agreeable to having discussions on a wide variety of subjects and if you truly wished to have a discussion with him, all you would have to do is bring up a subject that is of interest to him.

Here's JK on the Temple of Set

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6QO3yMl9g4

Lots of pronunciation fun and lip-smacking goodness in this one!

 Originally Posted By: Michael A. Aquino
Even the jerks are [irritatingly, inconveniently, annoyingly] very smart jerks.

Back to the point, how about the ToS? Modernist? Postmodern? Retro? Futurist?

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#45265 - 12/19/10 05:26 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Aklo
Here's JK on the Temple of Set. Lots of pronunciation fun and lip-smacking goodness in this one!

I just watched it and found it a thoughtful and dignified commentary. [The only mispronunciation I noticed was "Akeeno" instead of "Akweeno", which sometimes occurs because this spelling occurs in both the Philippines and Italy (my non-Scot half).]

The isolate existence of the ba/psyche is discussed in some detail in Chapter #4 of Black Magic, and the concept of æons in Chapter #3 of the same work (which was not available on my webpage at the time Mr. King made his video).

The 600C has also dealt with both topics in various threads, and of course the former has been particularly contentious given the generally materialist/Atheist culture of the Club. I of course expect to cure everyone here of this lamentable deficiency by calm philosophical discussion.

 Quote:
How about the ToS? Modernist? Postmodern? Retro? Futurist?

Just correct and perfect.
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#45267 - 12/19/10 05:43 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
How about the ToS? Modernist? Postmodern? Retro? Futurist?

Just correct and perfect.
[/quote]

Welllllll... I have it on good authority that the American Psychiatric Association is going to add membership in the Temple of Set as one of the main predicates for a DSM-IV diagnosis of F.U.S.S. (Fucked Up as a Soup Sandwich) BA DA BOOM!!! Sorry, Doc.. couldn't help myself the door was open and I just walked in!
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#45270 - 12/19/10 07:08 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Welllllll... I have it on good authority that the American Psychiatric Association is going to add membership in the Temple of Set as one of the main predicates for a DSM-IV diagnosis of F.U.S.S. (Fucked Up as a Soup Sandwich) BA DA BOOM!!! Sorry, Doc.. couldn't help myself the door was open and I just walked in!

See, JK - If you're not quick on your feet here, you'll be lunch.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#45290 - 12/20/10 07:08 AM Re: The mask of zorro. [Re: Dimitri]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I find your lack of substance quite annoying.
Too bad the force is fictional, otherwise I would have taken your pants off from a distance whilst you were walking in a black ghetto.

But everyone knows palpatine dies at the end of the story.. after being thrown down...quite a distance... probably zapped to death also.. so far the most powerfull sithlord..

I'm placing bets here, I'll give it... 1 week if not I'll pay the participants my favourite beer.


I'm having a rather difficult time deciphering this reply. Do you mean I'll be gone from 600 in a week? And btw, powerful has exactly one L.

JK
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#45295 - 12/20/10 08:39 AM Re: The mask of zorro. [Re: Dimitri]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I would like to ask you to give your stance on what you meant with postmodern Satanism for those who are not familiar with your ideas.


Sure.

JK
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#45296 - 12/20/10 09:51 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
I just watched it and found it a thoughtful and dignified commentary.


You are overly courteous. The video was some solid crap from a time when I was still struggling with the format. Of course, the points remain, but they deserve to be delivered better. I will engage the "black magick" link you provided and rejoin.

JK
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#45356 - 12/20/10 08:08 PM Re: The mask of zorro. [Re: Dimitri]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri


I do like a guy with some hair on his … […]
Too bad the force is fictional, otherwise I would have taken your pants off…


Dimitri you fag... quit dropping gay innuendos.

Speaking of internet posturing, have you read your empty internet posturing in this thread lately?

Reminds me of a little chihuahua barking up a storm. Such reactive behaviour to new people finding their way into your internet turf is predictable don't you think?

Ever heard that saying by Snoop Dog that goes: "You're bark was loud but your bite wasn't vicious...?"

>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTfGCe3dZ1A
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#45425 - 12/22/10 04:26 AM Re: The mask of zorro. [Re: Caladrius]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
Aah Caladrius, long time not seen. Are things getting a bit rough on mysatan? I guess it is... the flux of internet Satanists just as yourself getting back...

With which goal should I feel honoured of you speaking to me?
I already was wandering how ONA went... ya know... Gospel of Satan dude being present here for some time, elvis making his appearance,..

Not a great fan of rap.. I prefer music with a wide variety of instruments...
Snoop dog.. great guy, loved his acting in the film of Starsky and hutch... his music not so much. Still prefer rap from the 80ies and 90ies. Rap, Hip-hop nowadays are quite boring... unless you have fake titties, loves to hump car wheels with a big juicy wiggly..wet.... ass. Reminds me I do like one aspect of it.. don't need to tell which part..

Do you have a chihuahua? I know why most ladies want one.. and it's not because they're cute..

Enough talking about personal likings, wasn't this about post modernity? Bad girl that you are.. clouding my mind with images of sexy..


Edited by Dimitri (12/22/10 04:36 AM)
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#45436 - 12/22/10 07:34 AM Re: The mask of zorro. [Re: Dimitri]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Yet another thread that has dissolved into petty bullshit.

Locked.
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