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#35183 - 02/06/10 12:16 PM "If your heads alright, ya don't need binoculars..
Meq Offline
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..to see the light." (MotŲrhead)
Spin-off of "The Name" thread

 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
I acknowledge the intelligent identity of Set [or "Satan" as I recognized him 1969-75]. To echo the words of G.B. Shaw in The Devilís Disciple: ďI promised him my soul, and swore an oath that I would stand up for him in this world and stand by him in the next.Ē

Aye, but isn't your type of respectful acknowledgement best shown on your feet as opposed to your knees? Is Set to you more of a "brother and friend" or a "Dark Lord"?
Despite the differences in metaphysics among different Satanists (and Setians), I think a more important issue is the ethical one of whether it is better to bow in servitude to Satan as another sky daddy, or rather emulate him (however he is seen) as the stiff-necked rebel who refuses to bow to anyone (with the possible exception of rational self-interest).

From what I've seen, the ToS and 600 Club share this same basic attitude, and it's only groups like Joy of Satan which advocate actually getting down on your knees and sucking Satan's infernal scrotum.

 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Logic is the branch of philosophy concerned with analysing the patterns of reasoning by which a conclusion is properly drawn from a set of premises, without reference to meaning or context. Thus it is a tool applicable to the physical universe exclusively. The realm of the neteru is metaphysical.

This sounds suspiciously like Stephen Jay Gould's notion of non-overlapping magisteria.
Furthermore, if the realm of which you are talking about is completely outside and transcending the realm of logic, then how is it to be meaningfully expressed in human language?
In the words of Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Where we cannot speak, we must remain silent".
However, there wouldn't be such a major problem if the metaphysical claims made didn't directly contradict empirical observations. That does at least shift the burden of proof away from those who won't accept those claims.

Dr Aquino, you seem to have a mystical epistemology. David Hume was asked on his deathbed if he believed in an afterlife. He replied that it was possible that a piece of coal put upon the fire would not burn.
You however are insisting that not only will the coal definitely not burn, but that you have a good reason to be certain of that, which although can't be articulated in human logic, is sufficient to override the vast empirical evidence to the contrary.
You attribute your sense of justified confidence in your beliefs to some kind of mystical knowledge, núsis or gnosis. But on what grounds can you justify such an epistemology? If it cannot be justified rationally, then it has no business directly contradicting logic or inductive empirical observations. Otherwise, both the beliefs themselves and one's justification for them ultimately boil down to a blind leap of faith.

 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
It might if Setian philosophy were indeed "substance dualism", but it isn't. Once again, "substance" (as defined in your linked video) is necessarily of the physical universe, hence is thus intelligible by the rational/logical/scientific. Apprehension of the neteru, including of Set, is nútic. Núsis is approached by recognizing, then transcending the lower levels of Plato's "pyramid of thought" (eikasia, pistis, and dianoia); but it does not follow [logically] from this process: it is an ecstatic state of awareness.

Your approach is much like the "Two Worlds" Kantians in academia. They insist that there are two distinct realms or worlds (phenomena and noumena), which are metaphysically distinct and not merely aspects of the same thing. Yet they deny being dualists. Most of their detractors do, however, consider them to be dualists.

I see you take issue with the term "substance dualism", after agreeing with the video's definition of "substance" as physical. This semantic leap misses the point however, since many of the criticisms levelled in the video are directly relevant to claims you have made (such as consciousness being independent of the physical brain), whether or not you describe the neteru as substance(s). If it quacks like a duck...

 Originally Posted By: M.A.A.
Hume saw reality exclusively through the lens of empiricism.

So Hume was just a blinkered empiricist whose arguments can be tossed aside. Sorry, this kind of ad hom doesn't work here.

As a claim this is also false. (The extent of Hume's deism is also arguable.) Hume still believed in love, beauty and compassion, although he could find no empirical justification for these ideas. He also had a strong sense of personal identity, despite finding no empirical basis for believing in the self, and relied heavily on his belief in cause and effect in both his work and everyday life, despite finding no empirical basis for it. He attributed the inability to shake off these beliefs to human instinct, which may be necessary for survival. (This does not apply to "religious" beliefs in which it is truly possible to disbelieve.)

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#35185 - 02/06/10 02:35 PM And a redwood tree is just something to pee on. [Re: Meq]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Meq, you remind me of a poodle.

In Travels With Charley John Steinbeck recounted his trip around the United States with his standard poodle. At one point Steinbeck is overwhelmed by the beauty of a sunset, and tries to raise Charley's head up so that he can share in the experience. It is futile; the dog is much more interested in sniffing the ground. Which, I daresay, is more practical and empirical.
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#35190 - 02/06/10 04:34 PM Re: And a redwood tree is just something to pee on. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Meq Offline
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To quote Douglas Adams, "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" (Or neteru in your case.)
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#35196 - 02/06/10 10:52 PM ... and a little bit of pixie dust! [Re: Meq]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Meq
To quote Douglas Adams, "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

I suppose it is for Adams, Hume, and Charley; but don't you know that you have to believe in fairies before you can see them? [Tink and I have been chums for a very long time.]
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#35197 - 02/06/10 11:14 PM Re: ... and a little bit of pixie dust! [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
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I suppose you can see a lot of things if you believe in them. Doesn't make them real. Just means that you want to believe they are. I once had a vision of a girl I wanted. It was a nice fantasy. The one I got in reality was much better.
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#35198 - 02/07/10 01:17 AM Pygmalion and Galatea [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Jake999
I suppose you can see a lot of things if you believe in them. Doesn't make them real. Just means that you want to believe they are. I once had a vision of a girl I wanted. It was a nice fantasy. The one I got in reality was much better.

I am happy for you that you have been able to delight in both of them, when and as you needed and desired. That's magic.

For readers of this thread I would like to recommend a movie, Photographing Fairies, which conveniently is available in installments on YouTube, beginning here.
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#35203 - 02/07/10 06:49 AM Re: ... and a little bit of pixie dust! [Re: Jake999]
Simon Jester Offline
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 Quote:
I suppose you can see a lot of things if you believe in them. Doesn't make them real. Just means that you want to believe they are.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ_eXFhhEhg ;\)


Edited by Simon Jester (02/07/10 06:53 AM)

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#35206 - 02/07/10 02:00 PM Papa Oom Mow Mow [Re: Simon Jester]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Simon Jester
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ_eXFhhEhg ;\)

Was there something going on in this clip besides the bikinis?
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Michael A. Aquino

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#35230 - 02/08/10 02:20 AM Re: Papa Oom Mow Mow [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Clarence Offline
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Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 61
 Quote:
Was there something going on in this clip besides the bikinis?


If the bikini clad ladies proved all too diverting, Simon seems to have made an observation as to the nature of invisible friends.

But who am I to judge...it worked for Jimmy Stuart.

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#35233 - 02/08/10 03:31 AM "You too now begin to be a magician." [Re: Clarence]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Clarence
[Invisible friends] ... worked for Jimmy Stuart.

You mean Jimmy Stewart of Harvey fame? Indeed it did, as well as for Oz too.

Not to mention my mother, who as you can see here, was surrounded by fairies and other wondrous creatures throughout her childhood.

 Originally Posted By: Lawrence Gould
I do not believe the greatest threat to our future is from bombs or guided missiles. I don't think our civilization will die that way. I think it will die when we no longer care when the spiritual forces that make us wish to be right and noble die in our hearts.

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Michael A. Aquino

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#35236 - 02/08/10 08:19 AM Re: "You too now begin to be a magician." [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Clarence Offline
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Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 61
Jimmy Stewart...yes. My error.

 Quote:
I think it will die when we no longer care when the spiritual forces that make us wish to be right and noble die in our hearts.


A fine sentiment.

And thank you for sharing PIP.:)

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#35248 - 02/08/10 12:40 PM Tink said to tell you "Hmmpf!" [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
I need no fairies or imaginary friends. I need no god other than me ... I will kneel to no external god ...

You'd have a hard time kneeling to a fairy anyway; they're pretty tiny.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#35636 - 02/14/10 12:24 PM Re: Tink said to tell you "Hmmpf!" [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 860
Loc: Nashville
MawhrinSkel and Dr. Aquino,

I canít help but think that you are both wasting your talents. Has it come down to quick shots and one liners? I donít think so. Have you resorted yourselves to this?

Move beyond belief\unbelief. You both have something to say. Say it.

Will
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