Page 2 of 2 <12
Topic Options
#35696 - 02/16/10 05:47 AM Re: The IV & V [Re: Hawkeye]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Hawkeye
For example, I'm very into the martial arts, and my belts and sashes (sashes are used in place of belts in most traditiomal styles of kung fu) are a point of great pride to me, because I worked hard for them, and it is this pride in my former achievements that drive me on to greater and greater ones.


Well, I can see where someone might find that pride in their belts and their certificates that they can hang on the wall. But consider this. IF you have a black belt, 5th Dan in any discipline within the martial arts, and you display them proudly for all to see, are you REALLY an adept if you challenge a man with an gun?

This isn't to say that your belts and your titles are worthless. Certainly you've learned the various forms and you've mastered some mighty fine displays or prowess in your dances with other martial artists, but have you LEARNED anything? Can you apply those terrific movements that are meant to be mentally focusing on aspects of your life outside of the dojo? Have you become one with your knowledge and your skill?

Titles are great... got a few myself. But it's not about flaunting them. You can be the best damned swordsman in the world, but without the common sense to go with those skills...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a7s1vu_1uU
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#35698 - 02/16/10 07:18 AM Re: The IV & V [Re: Jake999]
Hawkeye Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 21
Actually I have a combat certification in Krav Maga, which means that an opponent with a gun or knife isn't a particularly difficult opponent at close range. Added to the fact that I'm a full contact fighter in multiple disciplines, I can say pretty confidently that I have learnt skills that are applicable.

And yes, I can apply it to other things, my martial arts have given me great focus, discipline and self-motivation. I should also point out that I make a little money on the side from instructing, so yes, I certainly put my skills to good use. I can't speak for anyone else though, obviously.

Top
#35699 - 02/16/10 08:23 AM Re: The IV & V [Re: Hawkeye]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3895
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Actually I have a combat certification in Krav Maga, which means that an opponent with a gun or knife isn't a particularly difficult opponent at close range.

Wow, what a load of total bullshit. This comment makes me think you either haven't actually studied for that long, or, as many practitioners of classical martial arts, you have convinced yourself that lead is actually gold.

There is no system of martial arts or hand to hand combat that trumps 'gun-fu'.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#35703 - 02/16/10 11:08 AM Re: The IV & V [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
To Hawkeye's credit, he's looking at life through the cloister of British rule. They don't have guns.

Krav is great if you're up close and personal, but the whole purpose of a gun is not to have to GET up close and personal. But being that our "hero" is in the "I have a degree that says I have the ultimate skills, I'm invulnerable" mode, he made the mistake of believing his own press. As you saw in the clip, the swordsman had some skills with his scimitar. Probably could have carved ME up pretty quickly, and I'm good with bladed weapons. But Indy had three weapons... first he had a gun. Second, he had a distance. Third, he wasn't possessed by the dumb ass.

Indy can fight. We've seen that in his movies. He's not a Krav Maga expert or a Muy Thai master... he just fights like you have to fight to win. And anyone who knows how to fight to win knows that you win by using the quickest and most expedient way of disposing of your enemy and, if possible, while taking no damage yourself. Bullets are quicker. They're more lethal and you don't have to get close to put a lot of them in your target.

But all of this does show a major flaw in the idea that you can certify people as experts through some correspondence course. There are a million people who are "book smart," and can stay in school until they are 50, getting degrees and hanging them on their wall while they take their next classes. Because a person takes that class and gets that certificate, they assume that they are now trained to do A, B, or C.

You're not an engineer until you build that bridge.

It's the same in an initiatory group. You can give anyone a certificate. You can even give them a test to fill out and return. Nothing like an open book test to guarantee that you'll get good scores. But like they say, the proof is in the pudding. Time and experience, backed by a track record of demonstrable skill is also needed. Do I trust someone I've never met because they have some kind of certificate? No, because I have common sense.

Would you choose your heart doctor without knowing that he's at least done the procedures live and in person, or are the words, "BOARD CERTIFIED" on his ad in the local Penny Saver good enough?
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#35707 - 02/16/10 01:31 PM Re: The IV & V [Re: Jake999]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I want to stress that I'm not saying that initiatory systems shouldn't be or that they aren't any good... but without structure, oversight and common sense, they're as useless as the proverbial teats on a boar hog.

One can expect some kind of bump in salary or in seniority when working for a corporation that has set rules and programs one can display competence it. Most corporations require some time limit in a skilled profession before one can be considered for a rate increase, usually coupled with a merit requirement. I can't think of any company incompetent enough to just tell a worker, "OK, Joe, you've been through our six day employee program. You are now an expert in nuclear power generation. Here are the keys to the plant." You have to earn that next step through application of company policy and demonstration of expertise within one's career field. Nothing wrong with that.

The military TRIES to do this, but unfortunately, there is a component of the enlisted promotion system that allows for the accrual of points toward promotion based on "TIME IN GRADE." This means that if you sit on your ass and do nothing but stay out of trouble, you will automatically accrue "x" number of points toward promotion for just breathing. There is also a component that takes into account the number of points that can be awarded for merit in the form of awards and recognitions (medals and ribbons) for various things AND a testing score. Unfortunately, with the time in grade accrual and a good string of guesses on the test that is given every year, some deadwood can be promoted. (And face it... if you see the same questions on a test year after year, sooner or later even the most dense will see the light.)

Time in grade isn't really applicable in initiatory systems... or shouldn't be. For example, in the Church of Satan that I came up in, there was no requirement that one had to participate once they became active members. You COULD choose to become involved if you wanted to, but nobody was going to stand over you and ask you to please come to the table. Using a time in grade formula for this kind of system would make no sense. Those who support and those who work for the "greater good" of the organization should never be on the same playing field as the schlub who simply sits on his ass. LaVey recognized this in talking about people of different wattage... think about it. You don't take your 25 watt nightlight with you to the operating theater.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#35708 - 02/16/10 02:28 PM Re: The IV & V [Re: Jake999]
Hawkeye Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 21
I'll admit guns are rare here, so all I have against guns is practise in a safe environment. However, I have been attacked with both a bottle and a knife, which were frightening, but I dealt with both situations well enough. I wasn't claiming to be some superhuman master fighter, just stating my skills and how I find them applicable in the rest of my life.

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand.

I have no real experience with the military, so am surprised to learn that time is valued over effort and competence at times. That seems a poor way to run things. Then again, I'm a pacifist on the quiet, I've never been able to understand the reasoning behind warring and killing, all it does is waste life. That's a discussion for another time however.

I do like that wattage analogy as well, I find myself using it to compare family and friends. I think ranks without merit in something like the military is nothing short of dangerous and stupid, and in most other situations they serve as little more than an ego boost.

Even from my own perspective, my belts make me feel proud, but they don't necessarily make me a better fighter than someone with a lower belt. I see it in college too; someone earns a black belt in Karate and think they're the toughest, and half the time these people go down with one punch from someone who actually is tough.

Top
#35722 - 02/17/10 01:18 PM Re: The IV & V [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Quote:
I am extremely interested in progressing as an individual, but I kind of doubt that an external authority could judge my results from an unbiased perspective.


This is a particular problem for initiatory organizations, as you note. I have had some, but not a great deal, of experience with these types of orgs, and it seems to me there is an inherent duality, a tension that can easily tip one way or the other.

On one axis, you have individual progress in the subject versus the organization's progress targets. An organization has goals that are not the same as an individual's goals, though the one may include the other. For instance, an organization usually has organism-like self-preservation as its top goal. I'm sure everyone has seen orgs that have "lost their way" and continue on as self-perpetuating means in themselves.

On a separate axis, as you mentioned, there's actual progress in the subject versus how the initiate is externally measured - the one being personal, the other being administratively mandated.

LHP is the most difficult to measure externally, as it's by definition almost completely self-defined (at least in the details, if not the abstract. IMNSHO, of course). I think it was Final_Conflict or Fist who mentioned the thought in one of the ToS/CoS/ToV threads that the core problem affecting CoS was the concept of organization itself. In such cases, it seems to me inevitable that progession will favor the org-centric, admin-oriented.

At this point, my thinking is that it may be unavoidable, due to the nature of a hierarchical organization administered by humans, to have at each level an imperfect set of initiates. Because of the self-preservation quality, an organization will usually err towards making that pool larger rather than smaller. I think that's actually a necessary step towards a state where those at the top are best qualified - but it's not a guarantee.

I can't prove it, but it certainly seems to be what's there. (The difficulties, obviously, are due to the subjective nature of terms like "best" and "qualified").

Maybe it just boils down to a compromise between those who are good at running a group and those who are Enlightened.
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

Top
#35731 - 02/17/10 04:27 PM Re: The IV & V [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
Hm, I may take issue with this example. Educational institutions are not something I normally consider "initiatic", in that they don't particularly care if you grow as a person - they just want your money, and if you can pass their testing criteria you get the degree. Graduate and post-grad might be different tho, as they're much more involved with the functioning of the institution itself ...

You allude to another good point: in a hierarchical organization, you are usually expected to learn and operate in a manner satisfactory your superior. You are therefore bound by his limits or abilities.
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

Top
#35746 - 02/18/10 01:35 AM Re: The IV & V [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
EvilDjinn Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 31
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
The same thing was an issue when arguing the curriculum's content with our professorial staff. Half the student body was of the opinion that all literature study was dependent upon a mutual understanding of core principles that were best understood by the reading of a literary canon. The other half called this a bunch of hogwash and were of the opinion that good literature was something that could not be fathomed exclusively by the reading of certain choice texts. I was of the latter variety, although I could see the value of the former's statements. Does everyone *need* to read Jane Austen to understand literature? If so, I am fucked.


Still in the initiatory process of a Bachelor's degree, I can't necessarily comment on the system as a whole. Though I myself loathe Jane Austen, I do think there is value in having a Canon of literature to draw from. It need not be that the entire Canon is necessary or even relevant to an initiate. But some are probably necessary. You might be able to get away with not reading Austen, but could you get away with not reading Shakespeare?

In the end, its probably necessary to have a union of methods. Finding important core works that convey common principles along with other quality literature that is relevant perhaps only to an individual.

Top
#35747 - 02/18/10 01:51 AM Re: The IV & V [Re: EvilDjinn]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Hell, Shakespeare was a joy to read compared to Upton Sinclair. The Jungle probably got me closer to being tossed out of a class than anything else I've ever had to read. DAMN, socialists can be whiney and preachy and maudlin all at the same time.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#35774 - 02/18/10 07:44 PM Re: The IV & V [Re: Jake999]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Hell, Shakespeare was a joy to read compared to Upton Sinclair. The Jungle probably got me closer to being tossed out of a class than anything else I've ever had to read. DAMN, socialists can be whiney and preachy and maudlin all at the same time.


LOL!

Stayed well and clear of "higher" education myself.
Had somewhat more of an Alice Cooperish attitude in the days of yore.
*Humming schools out*

Invested 17 years into self-education before I willingly committed myself to 4 years of hard work in order to harvest a master in art(craft).
My attitude during these 4 years was that I was more than privileged to get the opportunity to get a very costly education for free.

In accepting this generous offer, I entered a contract.
In fact; I willingly went into submission, something that doesn't come natural to me.

In return; I expected the school to recognize my willingness to put four years of my limited lifetime into their hands.
I was probably very lucky to find that the personnel which shaped this institution were acutely aware of the fact.

Now; I've been periodically teaching my craft for the last 10 years, and I am shocked to find that most teachers and school-administrations have little or no respect for the individual student.

My guess is that any organisation or institution quickly turns into a distasteful construct of power-struggle and internal benefits.
The student, or adept, becomes an irrelevant irritant.

To quote the poet:

I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member!

Groucho Marx
_________________________
Regards

Woland

Contra Mundum!

Top
Page 2 of 2 <12


Moderator:  TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Woland, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.026 seconds of which 0.001 seconds were spent on 24 queries. Zlib compression disabled.