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#35674 - 02/15/10 06:26 PM A Quote from a LaVey Interview
MatthewJ1
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Here is a quote from Dr. LaVey. It is from an interview between LaVey and Leo Martello and comes from a book called Black Magic, Satanism and Voodoo by Martello, which was published in 1972.

I have swiped this from Dr. Aquino's ebook on The Church. It is a part of Appendix 53 (Page 639).

Martello: Since in the popular mind Satanism is usually used as a synonym for evil, do you consider yourself such? If not, why not?

LaVey: The popular mind has never displayed an overabundance of objectivity. The popular mind accepts most data with little or no question, unless it happens to hurt. Then it is rejected. By blaming everything “bad” on the Christian concept of the Devil, theologians had a ready scapegoat for whatever went against their best interests. I don’t blame them; they needed a Devil in order to operate. I’m afraid we’re not that kind of Devil, though. The word “Satan,” which is Hebrew in origin, means the accuser, the adversary, the prosecutor. We question all things that defy logic, although we recognise the importance of subjectivity when the security of the “popular mind” is at stake.
Insofar as my “evil” propensities are concerned, I find the companionship of little children or animals far more inspirational and rejuvenating than the most esoteric magical ceremony and hold them in great reverence. I love good food, hearty drink, music that can bring shivers to my spine or tears to my eyes, works of art that are finely wrought and interesting to gaze upon, sexual fulfilment in accord with the imagery and sensations I find stimulating, a comfortable bed in which to sleep, whatever material possessions I can find the time to enjoy, a body free of pain, and others with whom to share these things who love and respect me as I do them.
I feel that those who thrive on misery should be presented with copious amounts of woe. Those who need doomsdays should be given dire prophecies. Those who would like to see you as miserable as themselves should be exiled with their own kind. I believe that water should be allowed to seek its own level, without interference, insofar as human beings are concerned. I believe in the glorification of the ego. That is a good separation process. A pumped-up, overinflated ego will display a fool’s flaws quickly and put him out of the running, while the worthy will rise to meet the added responsibilities that will accompany their exaltation.
I believe that man is not created equal, and that there are 25-watt people as well as 250-watt people, regardless of ethnic, economic, or religious backgrounds. If these things make me “evil,” then I must plead guilty.

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#35675 - 02/15/10 07:15 PM Re: A Quote from a LaVey Interview [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
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This was an interview by correspondence: Leo sent Anton a list of questions, and Anton sent him answers back. As I recall, the paperback, when it finally appeared, had some of Anton's responses scrambled & misprinted, which annoyed him. But he didn't expect that high a standard from Martello, who was basically a Wiccan flake of the sort prolific in the '60s.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#35676 - 02/15/10 07:31 PM Re: A Quote from a LaVey Interview [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



That interview is one of the most sensible and concise explanations of Satanism I have seen, and it also gives me a sense of who LaVey was. I don't know if others would agree with this.

I was actually also reading a piece of writing by John Ferro from your ebook as well Dr. Aquino. What happened to John Ferro? Is he still alive? Is he still involved with Satanism in some way?

He seems to me to be a highly intelligent and articulate person.

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#35677 - 02/15/10 07:32 PM Re: A Quote from a LaVey Interview [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Castle Books put the LaVey interview in a cheap hardback entitled BLACK MAGIC * Satanism * VOODOO by Marrello in 1973. The interview in its entirety is found on pages 120-128.

Like Dr. Aquino said, Martello was pretty much a "Wiccan Flake," and died in 2000. You can read about him at http://www.controverscial.com/Dr.%20Leo%20Louis%20Martello.htm and
http://www.loribrunopsychic.com/DrLeoLouisMartello.html
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#35678 - 02/15/10 08:39 PM Magister Caverni John Ferro [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
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Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
That interview is one of the most sensible and concise explanations of Satanism I have seen, and it also gives me a sense of who LaVey was. I don't know if others would agree with this.

Well, I assume you can see what I thought of him from COS as a whole. He was a very pleasant, gracious, and considerate gentleman. He enjoyed being himself, but he was never pretentious or self-advertising about it. You could call him a natural, rather than an affected extrovert. Almost everyone who met him expected the sort of bragging, narcissism, and bluster that were so common in the '60s "occult subculture", and they all came away saying, "Gosh, what a nice man!"

 Quote:
I was actually also reading a piece of writing by John Ferro from your ebook as well Dr. Aquino. What happened to John Ferro? Is he still alive? Is he still involved with Satanism in some way? He seems to me to be a highly intelligent and articulate person.

John was a Professor of History at the [Jesuit] University of San Francisco. He was handsome as hell, which drove the ladies nuts because he was also gay. An impeccable gentleman, and the senior Master at the Central Grotto at the time I joined (1969). A short time later he and Anton had a disagreement about something which resulted in John's departure for awhile. When I learned of this, I gave both of them no peace until they reconciled, which they eventually did probably just to shut me up.

John stayed with Anton in 1975, and I privately thought this was a good thing, because if anyone could have restored the Church, within its original authenticity and scope, John was he. If he had devoted the same energy and dedication to it that he had in 1969, it would have done fine; and if John had taken over as High Priest when Anton croaked, it would today be something everyone could be proud of.

Unfortunately, for reasons never communicated to me, John again fell away from the Church post-1975, and I was told later died of AIDS. Damn it.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#35679 - 02/15/10 09:01 PM Re: Magister Caverni John Ferro [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



So many of the people who were and are involved in The Church have been remarkable individualists.

Magister Ferro seems to have been of this type. He comes across a great eccentric with a love of the 18th century.

His writing was quite flawless and seamless.

I believe he was the first to have been awarded the fourth degree in The Church.

I am interested in the fourth degree - the sort of quality and knowledge required to earn that degree must be indeed great.

To hold the fifth degree - well that is indeed special!

Man, I do love this philosophy and the sort of depth and the questions which can be asked and explored.

Dr. A and Jake you are legends!

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#35680 - 02/15/10 09:11 PM Re: Magister Caverni John Ferro [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino


Unfortunately, for reasons never communicated to me, John again fell away from the Church post-1975, and I was told later died of AIDS. Damn it.


I never heard why Magister Ferro wasn't around during my period of time at the Black House, but I don't think that there was any animosity between him and Dr. LaVey. Dr. LaVey commented that they had spoken, and Dr. LaVey always spoke of him in very complimentary tones, as he did with many of the early members of The Church. I too had heard that he died of AIDS, although I couldn't say exactly when that was.
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#35681 - 02/15/10 09:40 PM Re: Magister Caverni John Ferro [Re: Jake999]
Mr Chips Offline
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Registered: 08/06/09
Posts: 14
A quick question: was John the fellow with the sharp mustache shown in the opening ritual of Satanis? If not, who was that?
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#35682 - 02/15/10 10:23 PM Re: Magister Caverni John Ferro [Re: Mr Chips]
Jake999 Offline
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Posts: 2230
Mr. Chips:

Satanis was done before my time at the Black House, so I'm not really sure who the person was, and I've seen no pictures of people from that period that I could have compared with those I would have seen in the 80's. Dr. Aquino was much closer in at that time and he may know for sure.
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#35685 - 02/16/10 12:41 AM Satanis Personalities [Re: Mr Chips]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mr Chips
A quick question: was John the fellow with the sharp mustache shown in the opening ritual of Satanis? If not, who was that?

No, that wasn't John. John looked like a young James Mason and had a velvet voice to match. [I told you the girls all swooned.] He wasn't in Satanis probably because at that time it would have jeopardized his faculty position over at the [Catholic] USF.

I don't know who that opening-invoker on Satanis is, though he was sure doing his utmost to sound sonorous. See, that's what I mean. When you look at most of the others in the various Satanis ritual shots, they're self-conscious and rote. Look at Anton and he was always relaxed, serious, and clearly sincere. Well, maybe not when he was blessing Isaac Bonewits' dick, although it is undeniable that IB went on to become an Upstanding Member of the neopagan subculture.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#35687 - 02/16/10 01:46 AM The IV° & V° [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
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Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
Magister Ferro seems to have been of this type. He comes across a great eccentric with a love of the 18th century. His writing was quite flawless and seamless.

Yes. He refused to have anything to do with modern machinery like automobiles or typewriters. Letters from him were always meticulously calligraphed on laid stationery. Never anything as vulgar as a strikeover. I think he really would have preferred to live in Collinsport, Maine in the Old House, with its candles and no phone/electricity. He made do with occasional evenings at 6114.

 Quote:
I believe he was the first to have been awarded the fourth degree in The Church.

Correct.

 Quote:
I am interested in the fourth degree - the sort of quality and knowledge required to earn that degree must be indeed great.

It developed gradually in the Church of Satan and has continued to be refined in the Temple of Set. It had both administrative [as previously discussed here, similar to bishop/archbishop/cardinal] and personal/initiatory aspects. Anton modeled much of its Recognition ceremony after, and quoted therein from, the 13th Æthyr of Liber 418, as have we ever since. This is the principle, for instance, by which Masters are expected to inspire, but not restrict specialized magical Orders.

 Quote:
To hold the fifth degree - well that is indeed special!

It is the Church's/Temple's identification of a Magus, evolved from the (9)=[2] of the Golden Dawn & A.'.A.'., but in a much more open context that that of the Cabalistic "Tree of Life": that is, the identification, definition, and explanation of a new principle of magical philosophy of great consequence [or in initiatory expression, "Utterance of a Word"]. Only Anton held this degree in the Church because only he had done just that. [Gilmore's current self-styling as a "Magus" is accordingly as nonsensical as his and his confederates' equally-clueless pretensions to the Magistry previously.]

 Quote:
Man, I do love this philosophy and the sort of depth and the questions which can be asked and explored.

It gets weirder all the time.

 Quote:
Dr. A and Jake you are legends!

or at least extras in The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers ...
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Michael A. Aquino

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#35688 - 02/16/10 03:00 AM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Space Monkey Offline
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Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Oregon, usa
Since degrees got brought up I have been wondering something. Before I became a satanist I was involved in witchcraft. The coven I was a member of had a really strike regime as far as training went and handing out degrees. I only got to the second degree before I left, but I really had to work for that.

I was over on the Letters to the devil forum and everyone seems to be either a priest or magistrate. So in CoS today how do you earn degrees? is it a time base thing, a money thing. A political scratch my back and poof your a priest? I just don't think there should be that many people with third or fourth degrees in a group.

Also how could Gilmore call him self a magus? do there degrees just don't matter anymore?


Edited by Space Monkey (02/16/10 03:02 AM)

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#35689 - 02/16/10 03:26 AM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: Space Monkey]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
You would really have to ask someone in the current Church of Satan how the hell they decide who is what and how they get there. But you're right. It seems that everyone is someone and when everyone is someone, it pretty much cheapens any real meaning in the terms one uses to express a position or a quality.

One way of looking at it is the current trend of female singers being called "diva." If Whitney Houston, Celine Dion and Mariah Carey can claim the title, then what does that say for the talents of Mahalia Jackson, Aretha Franklin, or Ella Fitzgerald? And we won't even cheapen the names of Maria Callas, Leontine Price or Beverly Sills.

And it's not like the trend has only been in Satanism. During the 70's and 80's and up until now, the trend in "wicca" has been to elevate one's name using traditional titles. I can't tell you the number of 16 year olds claiming the title "Lady" or "High Priestess" of this or that... or High Priests or "Blue Mages," or some other cockamamie title.

Most of it was (and still is, I think) a function of the "me generation" thinking that it all has to center around ME... who ever ME is at any given time. There's no need to train to know one's skill, because one deserves to be whatever they declare themselves to be simply by virtue of being able to declare it. In circles such as "ours," (meaning various realms of what the world might call the occult,) it petty much is defined by the leader's inability to model it or at least define a title as relates to a set position as an attractive and meaningful goal to be achieved.
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#35691 - 02/16/10 04:19 AM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Space Monkey Offline
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Registered: 02/07/10
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Loc: Oregon, usa
After reading these two posts. I have come under the influence of the lord of darkness, that I am to be refereed to as Lord Magus all around great guy space monkey.

Part of me would love to be in a group that made you earn degrees. Cause it is kind of nice to work towards something. Why bother thou. I earn a second degree after years of hard work, or just make up a title cause does anyone really care anymore. So much of the occult is an inner journey. We all know I hope were we truly are in our road.

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#35693 - 02/16/10 05:09 AM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: Space Monkey]
Hawkeye Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 21
Personally I think initiation, or degrees of achievement, can be a double edged sword. They build ego, which can be dangerous. Handing out certificates and titles to people who haven't earned them is folly.

However, if you recieve a certificate, or a title, or a belt or rank, and have really worked for it, you really reap rewards, both mentally and spiritually. For example, I'm very into the martial arts, and my belts and sashes (sashes are used in place of belts in most traditiomal styles of kung fu) are a point of great pride to me, because I worked hard for them, and it is this pride in my former achievements that drive me on to greater and greater ones.

Then again, I cannot speak for anyone else, so that's just my own opinion and experience on the subject.


Edited by Hawkeye (02/16/10 05:10 AM)

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#35696 - 02/16/10 05:47 AM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: Hawkeye]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Hawkeye
For example, I'm very into the martial arts, and my belts and sashes (sashes are used in place of belts in most traditiomal styles of kung fu) are a point of great pride to me, because I worked hard for them, and it is this pride in my former achievements that drive me on to greater and greater ones.


Well, I can see where someone might find that pride in their belts and their certificates that they can hang on the wall. But consider this. IF you have a black belt, 5th Dan in any discipline within the martial arts, and you display them proudly for all to see, are you REALLY an adept if you challenge a man with an gun?

This isn't to say that your belts and your titles are worthless. Certainly you've learned the various forms and you've mastered some mighty fine displays or prowess in your dances with other martial artists, but have you LEARNED anything? Can you apply those terrific movements that are meant to be mentally focusing on aspects of your life outside of the dojo? Have you become one with your knowledge and your skill?

Titles are great... got a few myself. But it's not about flaunting them. You can be the best damned swordsman in the world, but without the common sense to go with those skills...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a7s1vu_1uU
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#35698 - 02/16/10 07:18 AM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: Jake999]
Hawkeye Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 21
Actually I have a combat certification in Krav Maga, which means that an opponent with a gun or knife isn't a particularly difficult opponent at close range. Added to the fact that I'm a full contact fighter in multiple disciplines, I can say pretty confidently that I have learnt skills that are applicable.

And yes, I can apply it to other things, my martial arts have given me great focus, discipline and self-motivation. I should also point out that I make a little money on the side from instructing, so yes, I certainly put my skills to good use. I can't speak for anyone else though, obviously.

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#35699 - 02/16/10 08:23 AM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: Hawkeye]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3883
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Actually I have a combat certification in Krav Maga, which means that an opponent with a gun or knife isn't a particularly difficult opponent at close range.

Wow, what a load of total bullshit. This comment makes me think you either haven't actually studied for that long, or, as many practitioners of classical martial arts, you have convinced yourself that lead is actually gold.

There is no system of martial arts or hand to hand combat that trumps 'gun-fu'.
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#35703 - 02/16/10 11:08 AM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Jake999 Offline
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Posts: 2230
To Hawkeye's credit, he's looking at life through the cloister of British rule. They don't have guns.

Krav is great if you're up close and personal, but the whole purpose of a gun is not to have to GET up close and personal. But being that our "hero" is in the "I have a degree that says I have the ultimate skills, I'm invulnerable" mode, he made the mistake of believing his own press. As you saw in the clip, the swordsman had some skills with his scimitar. Probably could have carved ME up pretty quickly, and I'm good with bladed weapons. But Indy had three weapons... first he had a gun. Second, he had a distance. Third, he wasn't possessed by the dumb ass.

Indy can fight. We've seen that in his movies. He's not a Krav Maga expert or a Muy Thai master... he just fights like you have to fight to win. And anyone who knows how to fight to win knows that you win by using the quickest and most expedient way of disposing of your enemy and, if possible, while taking no damage yourself. Bullets are quicker. They're more lethal and you don't have to get close to put a lot of them in your target.

But all of this does show a major flaw in the idea that you can certify people as experts through some correspondence course. There are a million people who are "book smart," and can stay in school until they are 50, getting degrees and hanging them on their wall while they take their next classes. Because a person takes that class and gets that certificate, they assume that they are now trained to do A, B, or C.

You're not an engineer until you build that bridge.

It's the same in an initiatory group. You can give anyone a certificate. You can even give them a test to fill out and return. Nothing like an open book test to guarantee that you'll get good scores. But like they say, the proof is in the pudding. Time and experience, backed by a track record of demonstrable skill is also needed. Do I trust someone I've never met because they have some kind of certificate? No, because I have common sense.

Would you choose your heart doctor without knowing that he's at least done the procedures live and in person, or are the words, "BOARD CERTIFIED" on his ad in the local Penny Saver good enough?
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#35707 - 02/16/10 01:31 PM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: Jake999]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I want to stress that I'm not saying that initiatory systems shouldn't be or that they aren't any good... but without structure, oversight and common sense, they're as useless as the proverbial teats on a boar hog.

One can expect some kind of bump in salary or in seniority when working for a corporation that has set rules and programs one can display competence it. Most corporations require some time limit in a skilled profession before one can be considered for a rate increase, usually coupled with a merit requirement. I can't think of any company incompetent enough to just tell a worker, "OK, Joe, you've been through our six day employee program. You are now an expert in nuclear power generation. Here are the keys to the plant." You have to earn that next step through application of company policy and demonstration of expertise within one's career field. Nothing wrong with that.

The military TRIES to do this, but unfortunately, there is a component of the enlisted promotion system that allows for the accrual of points toward promotion based on "TIME IN GRADE." This means that if you sit on your ass and do nothing but stay out of trouble, you will automatically accrue "x" number of points toward promotion for just breathing. There is also a component that takes into account the number of points that can be awarded for merit in the form of awards and recognitions (medals and ribbons) for various things AND a testing score. Unfortunately, with the time in grade accrual and a good string of guesses on the test that is given every year, some deadwood can be promoted. (And face it... if you see the same questions on a test year after year, sooner or later even the most dense will see the light.)

Time in grade isn't really applicable in initiatory systems... or shouldn't be. For example, in the Church of Satan that I came up in, there was no requirement that one had to participate once they became active members. You COULD choose to become involved if you wanted to, but nobody was going to stand over you and ask you to please come to the table. Using a time in grade formula for this kind of system would make no sense. Those who support and those who work for the "greater good" of the organization should never be on the same playing field as the schlub who simply sits on his ass. LaVey recognized this in talking about people of different wattage... think about it. You don't take your 25 watt nightlight with you to the operating theater.
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#35708 - 02/16/10 02:28 PM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: Jake999]
Hawkeye Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
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I'll admit guns are rare here, so all I have against guns is practise in a safe environment. However, I have been attacked with both a bottle and a knife, which were frightening, but I dealt with both situations well enough. I wasn't claiming to be some superhuman master fighter, just stating my skills and how I find them applicable in the rest of my life.

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand.

I have no real experience with the military, so am surprised to learn that time is valued over effort and competence at times. That seems a poor way to run things. Then again, I'm a pacifist on the quiet, I've never been able to understand the reasoning behind warring and killing, all it does is waste life. That's a discussion for another time however.

I do like that wattage analogy as well, I find myself using it to compare family and friends. I think ranks without merit in something like the military is nothing short of dangerous and stupid, and in most other situations they serve as little more than an ego boost.

Even from my own perspective, my belts make me feel proud, but they don't necessarily make me a better fighter than someone with a lower belt. I see it in college too; someone earns a black belt in Karate and think they're the toughest, and half the time these people go down with one punch from someone who actually is tough.

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#35722 - 02/17/10 01:18 PM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Autodidact Offline
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Posts: 428
 Quote:
I am extremely interested in progressing as an individual, but I kind of doubt that an external authority could judge my results from an unbiased perspective.


This is a particular problem for initiatory organizations, as you note. I have had some, but not a great deal, of experience with these types of orgs, and it seems to me there is an inherent duality, a tension that can easily tip one way or the other.

On one axis, you have individual progress in the subject versus the organization's progress targets. An organization has goals that are not the same as an individual's goals, though the one may include the other. For instance, an organization usually has organism-like self-preservation as its top goal. I'm sure everyone has seen orgs that have "lost their way" and continue on as self-perpetuating means in themselves.

On a separate axis, as you mentioned, there's actual progress in the subject versus how the initiate is externally measured - the one being personal, the other being administratively mandated.

LHP is the most difficult to measure externally, as it's by definition almost completely self-defined (at least in the details, if not the abstract. IMNSHO, of course). I think it was Final_Conflict or Fist who mentioned the thought in one of the ToS/CoS/ToV threads that the core problem affecting CoS was the concept of organization itself. In such cases, it seems to me inevitable that progession will favor the org-centric, admin-oriented.

At this point, my thinking is that it may be unavoidable, due to the nature of a hierarchical organization administered by humans, to have at each level an imperfect set of initiates. Because of the self-preservation quality, an organization will usually err towards making that pool larger rather than smaller. I think that's actually a necessary step towards a state where those at the top are best qualified - but it's not a guarantee.

I can't prove it, but it certainly seems to be what's there. (The difficulties, obviously, are due to the subjective nature of terms like "best" and "qualified").

Maybe it just boils down to a compromise between those who are good at running a group and those who are Enlightened.
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#35731 - 02/17/10 04:27 PM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
Hm, I may take issue with this example. Educational institutions are not something I normally consider "initiatic", in that they don't particularly care if you grow as a person - they just want your money, and if you can pass their testing criteria you get the degree. Graduate and post-grad might be different tho, as they're much more involved with the functioning of the institution itself ...

You allude to another good point: in a hierarchical organization, you are usually expected to learn and operate in a manner satisfactory your superior. You are therefore bound by his limits or abilities.
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An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#35746 - 02/18/10 01:35 AM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
EvilDjinn Offline
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Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 31
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
The same thing was an issue when arguing the curriculum's content with our professorial staff. Half the student body was of the opinion that all literature study was dependent upon a mutual understanding of core principles that were best understood by the reading of a literary canon. The other half called this a bunch of hogwash and were of the opinion that good literature was something that could not be fathomed exclusively by the reading of certain choice texts. I was of the latter variety, although I could see the value of the former's statements. Does everyone *need* to read Jane Austen to understand literature? If so, I am fucked.


Still in the initiatory process of a Bachelor's degree, I can't necessarily comment on the system as a whole. Though I myself loathe Jane Austen, I do think there is value in having a Canon of literature to draw from. It need not be that the entire Canon is necessary or even relevant to an initiate. But some are probably necessary. You might be able to get away with not reading Austen, but could you get away with not reading Shakespeare?

In the end, its probably necessary to have a union of methods. Finding important core works that convey common principles along with other quality literature that is relevant perhaps only to an individual.

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#35747 - 02/18/10 01:51 AM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: EvilDjinn]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Hell, Shakespeare was a joy to read compared to Upton Sinclair. The Jungle probably got me closer to being tossed out of a class than anything else I've ever had to read. DAMN, socialists can be whiney and preachy and maudlin all at the same time.
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#35774 - 02/18/10 07:44 PM Re: The IV° & V° [Re: Jake999]
Woland Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Hell, Shakespeare was a joy to read compared to Upton Sinclair. The Jungle probably got me closer to being tossed out of a class than anything else I've ever had to read. DAMN, socialists can be whiney and preachy and maudlin all at the same time.


LOL!

Stayed well and clear of "higher" education myself.
Had somewhat more of an Alice Cooperish attitude in the days of yore.
*Humming schools out*

Invested 17 years into self-education before I willingly committed myself to 4 years of hard work in order to harvest a master in art(craft).
My attitude during these 4 years was that I was more than privileged to get the opportunity to get a very costly education for free.

In accepting this generous offer, I entered a contract.
In fact; I willingly went into submission, something that doesn't come natural to me.

In return; I expected the school to recognize my willingness to put four years of my limited lifetime into their hands.
I was probably very lucky to find that the personnel which shaped this institution were acutely aware of the fact.

Now; I've been periodically teaching my craft for the last 10 years, and I am shocked to find that most teachers and school-administrations have little or no respect for the individual student.

My guess is that any organisation or institution quickly turns into a distasteful construct of power-struggle and internal benefits.
The student, or adept, becomes an irrelevant irritant.

To quote the poet:

I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member!

Groucho Marx
_________________________
Regards

Woland

Contra Mundum!

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