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#36468 - 03/15/10 12:45 PM Re: Christian oppression and back lash . . . [Re: Chandler]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
senior member


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2233
Loc: Oregon
It doesn't matter whether proponents of ID say the designer is God or aliens; if you are going to make such bold claims then you must provide evidence. ID does nothing in the way of providing evidence, all it has done is try to discredit Evolution theory. As if discrediting one automatically proves the other.
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#36472 - 03/15/10 01:45 PM Re: Christian oppression and back lash . . . [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
veteran member


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
From the Temple of Set Reading List:

17C. Lifetide by Lyall Watson. NY: Simon & Schuster, 1979. (TOS-3) MA: “Dr. Watson, an anthropologist who is only very slightly ‘tainted’ by his interest in phenomena that polite academia carefully avoids, is the author of #22D and #22Q as well. Here he discusses scientific evidence for the extra-terrestrial origins of life on Earth and attempts to describe the development of the phenomenon of self-consciousness through purely-natural means. It is a valiant attempt. He stumbles, however, on certain features (such as the working vertebrate eye) that cannot be explained by evolution, and finally he is forced to admit that there is something beyond the natural order at work. In an effort to avoid taking the plunge into theology, he coins the term ‘lifetide’, a sort of neo-version of the ‘vitalism’ used as an escape-valve for inconvenient facts by hard-core Darwinists. An excellent book for seeing just how far science can go in beating its head against the door of non-natural tampering with the human intellectual equation.”

17E. The Neck of the Giraffe: Darwin, Evolution, and the New Biology by Francis Hitching. NY: New American Library (Mentor) #0-451-62232, 1982. (TOS-3) MA: “The recent attack on accepted Darwinian theories of evolution and natural selection by religious fundamentalists has prompted a few brave natural scientists and biologists to question some of the ‘sacred cows’ in the field of evolution. Evolution as a principle stands up to the most exacting tests, but some of the Darwinian sub-assumptions are found not to. There are ‘gaps’ in the fossil record between major species - for example, between early invertebrate sea creatures and ancient fishes. And between fish and amphibians. And between the reptile & the mammal jaw. How could the hyper-intricate human eye have evolved through ‘intermediate stages’? Hitching then launches into a careful discussion of mutation, genes, and cellular coding, after which he analyzes the best arguments the creationists have to offer. While dismissing creationism as ridiculous, he agrees with British Museum palaeontologist Colin Patterson: ‘They [the creationists] didn’t have the right answers, but they certainly asked a lot of the right questions.’ In addition to a 4-page bibliography of technical works, Hitching provides an additional 4-page annotated bibliography of introductory reading, keyed to points brought out in the chapters of his book.”
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[On Ignore: Dan_Dread, 6Satan6Archist6, Caladrius, MindFux]

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#36475 - 03/15/10 02:42 PM Re: Christian oppression and back lash . . . [Re: XiaoGui17]
Dimitri Offline
veteran member


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 1357
 Quote:
I don't see how your definition is intended to differ from mine, altough, again citing Dawkins (Greatest Show on Earth, p.9), a theory goes beyond hypothesizing in that it is "a hypothesis that has been confirmed or established by observation or experiment."

It differs by the words "a connection between facts".
A hypothesis assumes a falsifiable connection between facts, a theory is a hypothesis which has been approved and being biased by observations.
I know you meant the same thing, but when defining it, it is best to nit-pick a bit to make sure you aren't going to make mistakes.

 Quote:
There are any number of cogs in nature's machine, but any that have contributed to life's current diversity and complexity fall under the field of evolution so far as I know.

The increasing percentage of oxygen 2.6 billion years ago resulted in mass-extinction of billions of sorts of bacteria, and it made life possible as we know it today. I call it sheer luck. Evolution is just a part of it, there is much more.

 Quote:
Refer to my post above; when I stated that evolution was a fact (i.e. an observable phenomonen), I was referring to the process of evolution, not the history of the process.

Can you observe evolution? The factor of observation is just the biggest obstacle to let evolution pass as a fact. You can see the different kind of skulls of our ancestors and how our brain-capacity evolved, yet we speak of different species of human. The last part makes it impossible to pass it as a fact.
 Quote:
The so-called "missing links" in paleontology refer to gaps in the history of the process, which was not what I was referring to as a "fact."

Yet those are needed to make the theory a law and let it become a fact...

 Quote:
As for missing links, even a lack of fossils can be filled in with other data, such as imprints in the genome from past adaptations. Besides, the whole concept of "missing links" or transitional forms is based on the presumption of phyletic gradualism. If the punctuated equilibria hypothesis is correct (and much research confirms it), then there may be no transitional forms at all.

I am aware of filling it in with other data, yet any theory to be made as a law requires evidence. If there is no evidence or good explanation it will remain what it is.

 Quote:
How so?

Natural selection is a part of evolution and evolution is a part of natural selection. Both co-exist together.
Natural selection might happen due to certain natural events in which different species had the luck to survive that particular event by chance. Others might have evolved in their current form and by coincidence managed to survive a natural event because of their evolutive modification to their environment.


Edited by Dimitri (03/15/10 02:50 PM)
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#36478 - 03/15/10 03:21 PM Re: Christian oppression and back lash . . . [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Chandler Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 36
 Quote:
It doesn't matter whether proponents of ID say the designer is God or aliens; if you are going to make such bold claims then you must provide evidence. ID does nothing in the way of providing evidence, all it has done is try to discredit Evolution theory. As if discrediting one automatically proves the other.


Not only that, but even if you could prove ID, that wouldn't prove Christianity. It would just be consistent.

And even if you could prove Christianity, that wouldn't make it right.

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#36877 - 03/21/10 11:31 PM Re: Christian oppression and back lash . . . [Re: Dimitri]
XiaoGui17 Offline
member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 310
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I know you meant the same thing, but when defining it, it is best to nit-pick a bit to make sure you aren't going to make mistakes.


Touché. I am a stickler for correct diction myself, so I can't fault you for holding me to my own standards. I'll bet you're an Architect in the Keirsey temperament system.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
The increasing percentage of oxygen 2.6 billion years ago resulted in mass-extinction of billions of sorts of bacteria, and it made life possible as we know it today. I call it sheer luck. Evolution is just a part of it, there is much more.


That would still fall under the category of evolutionary science. Extinction due to a toxic environment still counts as natural selection.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17
Refer to my post above; when I stated that evolution was a fact (i.e. an observable phenomonen), I was referring to the process of evolution, not the history of the process.

Can you observe evolution?


As I said before, you can observe the process, not the history, of evolution. I can observe microevolution (bacteria developing resistance to antibiotics) and speciation (two populations becoming mutually unable to interbreed) in real time. Can I observe this happening in the past? No. That is extrapolation. Again, it really depends how we define evolution; you're still defining it in the historical sense. That's not what I meant.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I am aware of filling it in with other data, yet any theory to be made as a law requires evidence. If there is no evidence or good explanation it will remain what it is.


I think that genome mapping qualifies as evidence, and that punctuated equilibria counts as a good explanation.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Natural selection might happen due to certain natural events in which different species had the luck to survive that particular event by chance.


When a particular species or population survives due to sheer dumb luck instead of a particular advantageous gene, that's referred to as "bottlenecking" by evolutionary scientists. Natural selection solely refers to selection on the basis of advantageous genes.
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#36882 - 03/22/10 03:16 AM Re: Christian oppression and back lash . . . [Re: XiaoGui17]
Dimitri Offline
veteran member


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 1357
 Quote:
That would still fall under the category of evolutionary science. Extinction due to a toxic environment still counts as natural selection.

Natural selection is quite random and is but a term to describe "shit happens". Replacing bad luck/ shit happens with the concept of "natural selection" is normal. Natural selection can be a little more subtle but the basic idea behind it is just that.

 Quote:

As I said before, you can observe the process, not the history, of evolution. I can observe microevolution (bacteria developing resistance to antibiotics) and speciation (two populations becoming mutually unable to interbreed) in real time. Can I observe this happening in the past? No. That is extrapolation. Again, it really depends how we define evolution; you're still defining it in the historical sense. That's not what I meant.

And I say you can't observe the process.Just for shits: to make life hard for you I claim that the antibiotica resistent bacteria is different then the non-resistent even if they have the same association. (Sounds familiar?)
And as far as I know, I never saw a bacteria evolve under my microscope nor did anyone else see it. (Why do you think there are still Religionists? Because of the plain fact that the process cannot be seen/shown, there are only indications and a few resemblaces.)

 Quote:
I think that genome mapping qualifies as evidence, and that punctuated equilibria counts as a good explanation.

In some cases we can find a correlation, in others it is just pure guessing. No evidence, no law, no theory, no hypothesis no explanation, in other words: fantasy. Science is easy to understand, too bad most tend to fall over its simple rules for investigation/research/working.

 Quote:
When a particular species or population survives due to sheer dumb luck instead of a particular advantageous gene, that's referred to as "bottlenecking" by evolutionary scientists. Natural selection solely refers to selection on the basis of advantageous genes.

Bottlenecking is also a part of natural selection...
Perhaps in school you have learned about evolution, natural selection,... but when teaching these ideas most tend to seperate it more or less. It isn't really stressed out these mechanisms form a complex structure being interlinked with each other and with many many nuances. Seldom is something easy, and when talking about evolution it is best to see the whole Universe instead of the most visited places in that Universe.
It is a good thing a person knows his basics when talking about evolution (basics being natural selection, genetics,..) but sadly enough that's about the max most people tend to get.


Edited by Dimitri (03/22/10 03:17 AM)
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