#36594 - 03/16/10 05:14 PM
Re: The Art Of Manliness
[Re: Shadow Dragon]
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BelialsGal
stranger
Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 40
Loc: Tulsa, OK
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Shadow Dragon, I agree with you 100% on the issue of self motivation and amibition being standards for everyone, regardless of gender. I feel the same way.
As for comment "Man up" it's a reference to the Art of Manliness website book, blog, etc., the writer, of Art of Manliness. Both the author of Art of Manliness and myself are Oklahoma natives. In our neck of the woods, it's a colloquial term used to say "suck it up", We also say "Cowboy up" which means the same thing, but is not meant to exclude cowgirls. 
You make a valid point, that the Art of Manliness is selling to the male demographic. I realize the message is not profound, but I like the message none the less. This thread was titled "The Art Of Manliness", so I posted my support of the "movement".
If you're interested in the female version of this book. It is titled, "Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behaviour" written by Judith Martin. Same message, targets the female demographic. Again, I hold the same standards for both sexes, and I support the message, no matter how they sell it back to me.
Morgan- You were correct in regards to my dating preference. I want to date a masculine man. I am a strong woman who needs an equal counterpart. If I want effeminate, I'll switch teams*.
Note* "Switch teams" is a colloquial term for changing one's sexual orientation.
Edited by BelialsGal (03/16/10 05:33 PM)
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#36603 - 03/16/10 06:12 PM
Re: The Art Of Manliness
[Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
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XiaoGui17
member
Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 310
Loc: Austin, TX
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Simply because I can multi-task, I can speak about unpleasant topics without losing my cool, I can take care of our daughter and I clean the house, military-style. To me, those things are simply qualities, but my wife has a funny way of looking at masculinity. Apparently, masculinity equals simplicity and stupidity in her book.
Ever watch TV? Anything with a penis is either gay (Will & Grace), idiotic and ugly (Peter Griffin), or socially inept (Big Bang Theory). The popular media makes fun of men, and the only ones who are even remotely admirable are effeminate (gay). It doesn't help that lots of macho men themselves perpetuate the stereotype.
_________________________
'Tis only daylight that makes us sin.
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#36620 - 03/17/10 04:09 AM
Re: The Art Of Manliness
[Re: XiaoGui17]
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Doomsage680
member
Registered: 10/01/09
Posts: 109
Loc: NJ, USA
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The popular media does lower the bar to get our attention on a simpler, more understandable level, but not all of it portrays men this way. Some of it romanticizes how men should be, like Twilight, and some of it is shows how they are, like Lost, South Park, or Ferris Bueller's Day Off. There's plenty that gives men credit, just like there' plenty that also lowers women.
But I think you are right in how men are being characterized, as many comedians seem to perpetuate the stereotypes, though it is obvious and comedic when they do.
I gave funny examples but I believe South Park can do no wrong. Anyway. Big Bang Theory is definitely an example of social ineptness. Maybe even House, though his fellow doctors are pretty legitimate characters in my opinion.
_________________________
"I who have nothing but the comfort of my sins"
- Vinny Paz
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#36970 - 03/24/10 01:20 AM
Re: The Art Of Manliness
[Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
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Nyte
member
Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 360
Loc: Ohio
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Being a man is what Rudyard Kipling speaks about in "If". Everything else is just pretense and how your body's built. If you can live your life according to "If", then you're a man. That's how I feel, and that's how I'll keep feeling unless a better definition comes along.
Thank you Maw, for reminding me of a good memory.
I printed that poem for my oldest and asked him to read it when he and I were at odds for a while there. A close friend had lead me to read it and I hoped it would help guide my oldest a bit, while he struggled through "growing pains". Not long after that I found it taped to the back of his bedroom door. I asked him one day what he thought it meant and he simply said, "It means being like my step-dad." I knew then that my oldest, even without his birth-father in his life was going to be ok and would get through his growing pains all right.
I plan on making a new copy of the poem with some added graphics to frame for my oldest when we get settled into our new home. He and I have come a long way and he's still becoming a man, but after watching him with his girlfriend and in his life, I know he's on a good path.
I'm fortunate to know the men I do, simply because most of them that have come to stay in my life definitely don't fall into the TV depictions. Then again, I know I don't fall into the TV depiction of a woman either.
_________________________
If only just for today.....
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#37182 - 03/31/10 11:32 AM
Re: The Art Of Manliness
[Re: Sireal]
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CanisMajor
stranger
Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
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I have a very powerful masculine side and a well developed feminine side. I have considered it important to be what ever I need to be when I need to be it and have been many things and done some better than others.
There's a right-brain/left-brain corrolation here.
Some integration between the two is absolutely necessary.
Most creative,artistic,or musical endeavors are usually just an abstract expression of one's right-brain "inner bitch".
_________________________
For every complex problem,there is a solution that is simple,neat,and wrong.
H.L Mencken
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#44272 - 11/20/10 10:26 AM
Re: The Art Of Manliness
[Re: Equilibrio]
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Blasphemer
lurker
Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 4
Loc: NSW, Australia
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There is a fascinating by Jack Malebanche (ex CoS) called Androphilia which discusses Manliness in some detail, sadly it is OOP. There is also Blood Brother (still in print). He presents a fascinating case from a androphile i.e. male-male lover angle. He argues for a strong, virile form of homosexuality rather than the more current politically correct form. This debate can be traced right back to the origins of homosexual theory in the 1800s when thinkers like Adolf Brand and Hans Bluher argued for a male based Mystery cult tradition (Mannerbund). While others argued that homosexuals were women in mens bodies. Jacks approach is fascinating as his books while directed at homosexuals have a lot to say about regaining masculinity in a culture emasculated by feminism.
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#62919 - 12/24/11 10:03 PM
Re: The Art Of Manliness
[Re: Tropix]
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Morgan
senior member
Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2303
Loc: New York City
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I like my men masculine, and my women to be feminine.
Yes, some of it may be gender roles, but I am secure enough to admit what I can and can not do. WHILE also keeping in mind that what I am able to do is more than some men are able to do.
Intelligent decision making does not depend on what sex you are, both can be equally stupid. As for racism, sexual oppression, and religion, none of those fuckers are going anywhere anytime soon. Human nature, they all want a victim/scapegoat that they can use. Besides, when you live up to your stereotype, you are your stereotype.
As for the male you are, no one cares. You just come across as kinda metrosexual mixed with emo.
M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass.
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#62937 - 12/25/11 07:45 PM
Re: The Art Of Manliness
[Re: Equilibrio]
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Michael A.Aquino
veteran member
Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
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I generally avoid discussions about sexuality, since in my experience there's no surer way to send everyone howling to the treetops. But I will venture these few observations:
(1) Love and sex are two different things. Love is metaphysical; sex is physical. Lots of people blur this distinction and mistake one for the other, or gift-wrap them together. Often the result of this is that if one doesn't work, the other gets blamed for it.
(2) I'm assuming this thread is essentially about [physical] sexuality, so that's what I'm now focusing on:
(3) There is nothing particularly complicated about sex, really. You're given a basic deck of cards as either an XX or an XY. It may be a well-hormone-balanced deck, in which case you'll go happily through incarnated life as Ozzie or Harriet Nelson.
(4) If, however, you get too much or too little XY testosterone or XX estrogen for your deck, things get screwed up. You don't look the way you should, or think about yourself or others (of either sex) the way you should. It may come out backwards, or neutral, or just mixed-up.
(5) The usual popular debate about "gender identity/sexuality" is whether (a) it is a matter of personal choice or (b) one is born that way. Anti-LGBTers usually insist it is #(a), so they can blame LGBTers for making a bad choice. LGBTers usually insist that it is #(b), so they can say it's not their fault; they had no choice.
(6) The LGBTers are right, but not at the DNA level. [If this were so, they would disappear after one or two generations from non-reproduction.] They are right at the hormone strength & balance level, because the strength & mix of what they've got dictates what they are.
(7) The LGBT critics are also right, but again for the wrong reason. An LGBT decision is not a discretionary, arbitrary choice by someone just because he/she feels like being weird. It's physical-body-dictated. It is a choice in that the individual (with medical access & financial resources) can choose to analyze, identify, and correct the hormonal disfunctions. Basically you get your hormones measured, then add what's needed to rebalance them. Presto, you're Ozzie or Harriet Nelson.
(8.) Hormone wackiness can be something you're born with, or encounter at any time in physical life. Women all go through major weirdness with menopause. Less-well-known is that from about age 40 male testosterone production starts to decline, leading not only to loss of libido and cooked-asparagus syndrome but to all sorts of general body deterioration (muscles, bones, strength, etc.). There are compensatory hormone supplements and treatments for both genders available; see your doctor to get tested and if necessary prescribed.
(9) Of course if you've got a weird hormonal imbalance that you've decided you like, that's your business. Just don't deceive yourself into believing that you're helplessly stuck with it.
(10) All of which is to say that sexuality is really something that you can switch on/off, and dial up/down, far more mechanically than most people realize. They get diverted into emotional, religious, romantic, etc. peripheral issues, that's all, and that accumulates a lot of personal baggage. If you've spent years going through all the trauma that a male homosexual goes through, adjusting your personality and lifestyle to it, and then find out that you could have been Ozzie Nelson all along by just dabbing some Androgel on your shoulders every morning, you'd probably be somewhat pissed off, right?
(11) Then, in the fun-and-games department, there's how much of which hormonal balance you radiate to others, which your conscious senses don't pick up any more than they do infra/ultra-sound/light, but your detectors left over from your caveman/woman ancestors still do: pheromones.
(12) In all this I am not telling you what to think or do about your sexuality - just that your consciousness is far more influenced by your OU-physical bodily functions than you may realize, and that you do have the ability to detect and control these if you wish. As always with magical acts involving the OU, wisdom is essential. [We all know the horror stories about bodybuilders and other professional athletes who have abused steroids, etc.] What you want is to be in intelligent control of your own body, not to be at its mercy if it's jerking you around.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino
[On Ignore: Dan_Dread, 6Satan6Archist6, Caladrius, MindFux]
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#62938 - 12/25/11 08:24 PM
Re: The Art Of Manliness
[Re: Morgan]
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Tropix
stranger
Registered: 10/23/10
Posts: 14
Loc: Minneapolis
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When I say, "I like my men masculine, and my women to be feminine."
That is what I like in my bed. If I want to fuck a chick, then I fuck a chick, not some emo crying metrosexual man. That was the point I was making.
Society doesn't play a role in that. I make that choice.
As for gender roles/traits, they have some uses but don't define me or how I view my life. They are tools.
It's all options, choices, but you still choose what you like and how you define yourself.
M
It's pretty clear to me that I'm not attracted to females, but throw a boy in my bed and there's a good chance something might happen. It's hard to describe if I'll want him or not. He might be masco or femme. What doesn't change however, is the biology. That's what makes a man. I could be unattracted to him for a billion other reasons, but that certain part of the male anatomy is how my drive decides if it's a man or not.
(A side note: By having that simple stipulation of anatomy, it's almost as if "man on man" were a fetish or a hobby. I wouldn't deny that a sexual attraction to females couldn't be constructed, but my position on that is that such change isn't necessary)
As for the male you are, no one cares. You just come across as kinda metrosexual mixed with emo.
That's kind of funny to me. First of all, as I now graphically described, I'm a homo. The second thing that comes to mind is how you later described not wanting to fuck "some emo crying metrosexual man."
I don't know what sex you are or if you have sex with men or woman or both, but as a man, I will gladly rip off whatever you got. I'll leave mowing the lawn to some prick who can't even deliver an orgasm.
Traditional gender roles vary from rational to complete bullshit. To deny the obvious differences between the minds of men and women is just plain ignorant.
There's certainly this and that trait that appears throughout the population with more frequency. However, when it comes to uninterrupted consistency and exclusivity, can you name anything that would accurately spot the difference between a man and a woman, aside from the physical markers? I don't mean that as a challenge, but I honestly want to know. When I hear statements such as "Men are this way..." I have yet to hear something that I can agree is always true or always untrue for the opposite sex.
_________________________
After me will come someone lesser than I. Someone so stupid he can't take off his own damn shoes.
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