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#36454 - 03/15/10 07:06 AM The Great Earth Rebellion
exadust Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 91
Loc: georgia
This is something I have pondered on for sometime. Over the last decade we have seen many natural disasters. Hurricane Katrina, The Tsunami's and the Haitian Earthquake are a few examples.

Natural disasters have been occurring proberly since the earth's formation.But the frequency in which they have been occurring seems to be speeding up.

Now my question is this. Can this be the result of Overpopulation tied in with the introduction of manmade chemicals into the ecosystem?

In wildlife if there is an overpopulation of certain species it can cause problems. Like lack of food and shelter.

Also in wildlife when an foreign species is introduced into certain ecosystems it can wreck that ecosystem.

Not that manmade chemicals are a species of anything but they have been introduced and tie that in with overpopulation could the Earth in fact be rebelling against us?

I'm not saying that the earth is conscience by any means I'm just asking is it possible.

Now I know that some chemical's are helpful but at the same time when there are positive consequences there can also be negative ones.

Just a little topic for debate.
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#36458 - 03/15/10 07:32 AM Re: The Great Earth Rebellion [Re: exadust]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"natural disasters. Hurricane Katrina, The Tsunami's and the Haitian Earthquake are a few examples.... Can this be the result of Overpopulation tied in with the introduction of manmade chemicals into the ecosystem?"

Natural disaster's happen. One reason why we don't have dinosaurs anymore. Due to modern communication systems, we now know weather trends, can give some warnings, and know instantly when bad disasters happen because you can call or text the world about it the moment it happens. For example the Tsunami warnings for Hawaii when Chile had their earthquake. How some people trapped in the rubble in Haiti text/called their trapped location so they could get rescued.

Overpopulation, the weight of people is not going to trigger an earthquake unless all of them jump up and down on the San Andres fault. However, if you have a bunch of people being stupid, like the idiots on snowmobiles who ignored warning, the people/weight/noise will trigger an avalanche.

China is fucking up their country with all the chemical dumping. (See the video thread for more info on this.) They have a huge population as well. I haven't heard of any major natural disasters lately, but their people do starve and recently 11 tigers were starved to death because no one had the money to feed them.

I don't think the world is conscious. Granted people do fuck with the ecosystem for various reasons ranging from greed to just plain stupid. I just don't think we are being "punished" by the planet because of it. It just seems to be cyclical.

Besides, once you start thinking the world is conscious where does it end? Is it Gaia, Tiamat, a mote in God's eye, or just a science experiment gone wrong?

M
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#36460 - 03/15/10 07:47 AM Re: The Great Earth Rebellion [Re: Morgan]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1138
Loc: Amarillo, TX
It's Eywa, of course. ;\) She's sending her minions against us because she's angry that we've violated the fragile balance of nature.
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#36466 - 03/15/10 12:11 PM Re: The Great Earth Rebellion [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
CanisMajor Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel

This is neither divine nor intelligent. It just is.......

Looking for purpose is a bit like looking for gods under seashells on the beach.......

The earth seems cruel and vengeful only because we perceive our treatment of its biosphere as shameful, and we'd expect it to get its payback if it could. The problem is that the earth doesn't think. However, the biosphere is like a membrane, grossly oversimplified. You push, it pushes back......

Ascribing human motivations (or even just sentience) to nature is what got us into the whole 'god' meme in the first place. The sooner we dispense with it the better.


That's exactly the problem,isn't it? It seems bizarre that even among atheists it is common to ascribe kharmic push/pull to a "deified" planet. Pantheism vs. Panatheism,I suppose.

There was an earthquake. Or a hurricane. The earth is angry. We are to be judged.

Next thing you know,you find it easier to buy into Pat Robertsons' bullshit about natural disasters being the demi-gods' antidote to gays and abortion.

If your house is wiped clean by a tsunami,you are being judged no more than the mosquito you swat.
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#36469 - 03/15/10 12:49 PM Re: The Great Earth Rebellion [Re: CanisMajor]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: CanisMajor

If your house is wiped clean by a tsunami,you are being judged no more than the mosquito you swat.


Well... not to throw a monkey wrench into the discussion, but in some ways you ARE being judged. If you build your house on a flood plane, be it tidal or on the course of a major river, one could definitely question your judgement, at the very least. If you REBUILD there after being flooded out, then judgement is something you just can't avoid.

But as a whole, this idea of "earth retribution" is as new agey as the whole karmic schtick and the "Wiccan rede of 3." Nature cares nothing about us, other than how we fit into the ecosystem at present... and this is not to imply that there is any form of divinity or intelligent design going on. Simple survival of the fittest. We either do or don't survive based solely on our adaptability to situational evolutions.
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#36470 - 03/15/10 12:57 PM Re: The Great Earth Rebellion [Re: exadust]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
So the Earth isn't conscience but it is intentionally "rebelling against us"? That makes no sense.

I suppose you could try to liken in to a stimulus/response scenario, like a Venus Fly Trap closing on some unlucky bug, but you would also have to prove that as well.

I think you have seen "The Happening" one too many times.
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#36471 - 03/15/10 01:01 PM Re: The Great Earth Rebellion [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Adversary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/19/10
Posts: 93
exadust, where are your statistics to support your idea that natural disasters are indeed occuring with more frequency? We live on a cooling planet. These things(volcanos, earthquakes, ect.) are always going to happen so long as the earth is fluid enough to allow the energy to escape.
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#36474 - 03/15/10 02:17 PM Re: The Great Earth Rebellion [Re: exadust]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
This is something I have pondered on for sometime. Over the last decade we have seen many natural disasters. Hurricane Katrina, The Tsunami's and the Haitian Earthquake are a few examples.

Yes, those are the natural disasters who reached a high media attention. I'm quite sure there are plenty more who didn't made the headlines. Besides, since when did we actually start archiving all the different disasters over time?

 Quote:
Natural disasters have been occurring proberly since the earth's formation.But the frequency in which they have been occurring seems to be speeding up.

As said before: Media attention. At this very moment somewhere in the world another "disaster" is occurring unnoticed by the mass.

 Quote:
Now my question is this. Can this be the result of Overpopulation tied in with the introduction of manmade chemicals into the ecosystem?

Simple answer: NO!
Less simple answer, yet simplified:
The occurrence of tornadoes is also linked with the earth's temperature. We currently are residing in a phase in which the world is heating up (we just left an ice-age). Global warming is a fact (although the human factor is doubtful), the raising of the earth's temperature will result in a slowly increasing numbers of tornadoes in different zones. Chemicals being a factor is very unlikely since it is about air-streams.

When it comes to tsunamis we are talking about the moving crust of the earths surface. Here also the factor of chemicals is very doubtful.

 Quote:
Not that manmade chemicals are a species of anything but they have been introduced and tie that in with overpopulation could the Earth in fact be rebelling against us?

2 Problems:
1)Man-made chemicals are still molecules that can only damage organic species (and perhaps have an influence on certain natural non-organic elements).
2) Can the earth think? As far as I am concerned, it is but a huge ball of magma with a cooled down hard outer shell.

Now, chemicals and other kind of pollutions can occur naturally by ongoing natural processes. The damage made is only limited towards the earth surface. This means only other organisms will have some effect of it. Natural disasters like eruptions, tsunamis and... have hardly a human influence.

As mentioned before, natural "disasters" just happen.
Some damage can be evaded (like moving out of a tornado zone instead of returning and rebuilding your house after it has been destroyed for the xth time), and sometimes shit just happens.


Edited by Dimitri (03/15/10 02:26 PM)
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#36476 - 03/15/10 02:43 PM Re: The Great Earth Rebellion [Re: Jake999]
CanisMajor Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
 Originally Posted By: CanisMajor

If your house is wiped clean by a tsunami,you are being judged no more than the mosquito you swat.


Well... not to throw a monkey wrench into the discussion, but in some ways you ARE being judged. If you build your house on a flood plane, be it tidal or on the course of a major river, one could definitely question your judgement, at the very least. If you REBUILD there after being flooded out, then judgement is something you just can't avoid.


"Nobody should be protected from the effects of their own stupidity.",says Mr. LaVey.

I suppose in this case one would be weighed,measured,and found wanting...

Darwinism strikes again! Ain't it grand?


Edited by CanisMajor (03/15/10 02:45 PM)
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#36477 - 03/15/10 02:57 PM Re: The Great Earth Rebellion [Re: Adversary]
SOLERIFT Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 31
Loc: Dallas, TX
Who is actually to say disasters are occurring with any more frequency?

Think about our rate of communication now, compared to how it was only 50-100 years ago. It might be that we are able to know about all disasters instantly now, when only 150 years ago people would have waited for weeks to hear the news, if at all.

Communication is near instantaneous and therefore all disasters anywhere are reported everywhere almost instantly.

Our ability to collect accurate geological data with precise tools is no where near 100 years old, meaning that any advanced data we have begun to collect is relatively recent data, and anything beyond recent data relies on archived historical record, carbon dating, and comparison of mineral/chemical deposit ratios, which is fine when dating rock or volcanic activity, flooding, and abrupt temperature changes (events of a planetary or continental scale), but to my knowledge, our current technology is very meager in its ability to accurately track the occurrence, much less the frequency, of smaller disasters in the distant past that leave smaller footprints (earthquakes, tsunamis, tornados, hurricanes, etc....)

Given our relative infancy in regards to our current technology, how can we know that disasters are occurring with greater frequency? compared to what? More frequency over the last decade, hundred years, the last thousand, the last million?

Scientists have determined without much doubt that the earth undergoes violent changes and upheavals, and that time and time again, these events have occurred - and these major events have all happened in the absence of our current industrial waste habits.


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#38170 - 04/28/10 06:54 PM Re: The Great Earth Rebellion [Re: SOLERIFT]
Wijesin Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 34
Well... The frequency of extreme weather incidences isincreasing. This is well documented, both from multiple, independent academic studies and from the cost of insuring property against weather damage. The latter has gone up - risk-assessments based on old weather records don't work anymore.

Drought, landslides, and flooding are on the increase, since economic activity drains rivers and aquifers, logs forests that keep topsoil in place, and so on, and so on.

Solerift: Don’t confuse meteor strikes, earthquakes, volcanoes with man-made ecological disasters, anthropogenic global warming, over-exploitation of resources, and so on. I thought that Morgan already clarified this. The point about disasters being reported to every corner of the world efficiently does not change the fact that overexploitation, overpopulation and pollution creates problems – some of these that translates into outright disasters. Overexploitation and plain old Malthusian population dynamics, along with other factors, has created societal collapse many times in the past. The Norse Settlement on Greenland, The Maya and Aztec cultures are all well-documented examples of this. Rwanda, Somalia and Southern Sudan may be modern examples of collapses, although this of course is debateable.

So yes, non-geological disasters linked to certain types of economic activities, human overpopulation and desperation is on the rise. This will probably continue until economists, scientists, politicians and engineers manage jointly to find workable solutions and regulations to handle these global problems that voters accept. Don’t hold your breath.


Edited by Wijesin (04/28/10 06:58 PM)
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#38428 - 05/10/10 06:10 PM Re: The Great Earth Rebellion [Re: Wijesin]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
I can guess correctly that everyone that reads this thread is somehow doing their part to help keep our environment from acting tempermental. Like recycling their reusable garbage, walking instead of taking a vehicle to a nearby location, or thinking twice about leaving that light on when no one will be around to use it. With the education that's out there, it's difficult for an average adult to not know how to minimize on pollution. The list of things we can do to assist the environment goes on and on, though, and I'm not about to offer ideas that you can improve upon it. But, is that all we can do?

One thing is for sure: We are on this planet, and will consume natural and unnatural (processed) resources. The only way to minimize this fact is to remove the population of humans from the Earth, entirely. As far as the ken of thought is concerned, that's not going to happen. Humans are likely to be on this planet until the end of it whether we bring it about or not.

Just by the mien of 'indulgence' implies consuming resources whether on a large or small scale. I gather from the aformentioned posts that the issue of justification is brought to the forefront of one's mind. Why act recklessly when we can actually do something about it? As much as I can postulate, humans are conscious, sentient beings. And, I'm sure there are some of you who can tell me otherwise.
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#38547 - 05/14/10 07:49 PM Re: The Great Earth Rebellion [Re: paolo sette]
Wijesin Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 34
Indeed. I do all the things you mentioned, and more. My power-provider is still confused about my flat's tiny power-consumption, which in their book should be much larger. With A/A+ fridges and freezers, induction tops for cooking, a heat-pump and power-mean lighting and electronic appliances, the electricity bill is rather nice. The 'nega'watt (i.e. power-saving schemes and technologies) can do a lot, and is a good investment for the individual, too.

The trick with humans, conscious or not, is that their consumption habits can be changed and channelled. If neat, power-saving technologies are associated with high status, then people will aim for that. This is especially the case if there are economic incentives pulling in the same direction. Add an 'externality'-type tax as the good ol' whip, and you really have something going.

That said, the best way of easing up on the environment may be to aim for as many countries as possible passing their demographic transition asap. How to do that is an open question, but allowing family planning and use of contraception to be part of aid programs is certainly a way to go (shame on you, Bush; good going, Obama). Of course, after the transition, their consumption will go up, but I hope for a net positive effect here. And there is the tiny added benefit that such societies will be less likely to overtax their environment out of sheer desperation. Although they might do it, I suppose, from sheer greediness instead…

When it comes to natural resources, it is perfectly possible to harvest surpluses without doing long-term damage. Just not on the scale and with the intensity that is currently being done in many places globally. Just to name a handful: Aquifers beneath Saudi-Arabia are drying up fast. Fishing off the coast of Spain and Portugal? Resources utterly mismanaged, despite multiple expert warnings. Forests in Bangladesh and many other places are being logged down to the last trunk. Goodbye topsoil, hello huge mudslides. Oysters outside New York? Oh, forget those. Already gone. Eaten up to the last mollusc. I hear it was fun while it lasted, though.
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#38556 - 05/15/10 12:02 AM Re: The Great Earth Rebellion [Re: Wijesin]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
We are nothing more than a species on this planet. The difference is, we have the ability to decide whether or not to destroy the actual life sustaining systems that support us. Any other species does make that conscious decision. And the earth is only doing what it has done all along.....
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