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#33784 - 01/09/10 03:42 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Cesare Borgia]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
In fact morality is against our own survival.


Oh, is it? Care to elaborate on that?

 Quote:
f you see human beens in the past, before christianism, people was not moral, religion cults were cults of fertility(sex was good, pro-life), people, when neccesary, acted with cruelty to defend themselves.


People weren't moral prior to Christianity? I don't agree with that statement one bit. While it may be a matter of what one considers to be moral, I would argue that people have pretty much always had some form of morality. The only difference between "us" and "them" (modern man and ancient man) are the specific morals that are adhered to. And people act with cruelty to defend themselves even to this to day. I don't know of anyone who wouldn't fight with every ounce of strength they have if their life were threatened.

 Quote:
Not every body was equal(that was stated in the French Revolution influenced by christians), but aristocracy, as in the animal kingdom, was the rule.

The strongest and inteligent ruled the world.


Aristocracy in the animal kingdom and the strongest and intelligent ruled the world? No and definitely not.

 Quote:

-Satnists are aristocrats in the sense that they are a few people that don´t deny their instincts.


You are obviously misusing the word. Aristocracy is a form of government whereby rule is reserved for the highest social classes.

Also, I deny my instincts sometimes. There will come times where someone says something that pisses me off and my first instinct is to kick them in the teeth but I don't because that isn't the best course of action. It is not that Satanists don't deny their instincts, rather they realize that such things are human and not something to be ashamed of as the Judeo-Christian religions would have us believe.

 Quote:
Not every body can do this. Centuries of "sinfull" mind teached by judeo-christian religions have rotten today´s human capacity to act like satanists(that is, like healthy people).


Exactly, not everyone can do that. Therefore, your belief that "everybody is a Satanist" is a false belief.
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#33790 - 01/09/10 05:40 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Cesare Borgia Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Quote:
In fact morality is against our own survival.


Oh, is it? Care to elaborate on that?

I´m talking about morality based on the "Mount Sermon"

 Quote:
f you see human beens in the past, before christianism, people was not moral, religion cults were cults of fertility(sex was good, pro-life), people, when neccesary, acted with cruelty to defend themselves.


People weren't moral prior to Christianity? I don't agree with that statement one bit. While it may be a matter of what one considers to be moral, I would argue that people have pretty much always had some form of morality. The only difference between "us" and "them" (modern man and ancient man) are the specific morals that are adhered to. And people act with cruelty to defend themselves even to this to day. I don't know of anyone who wouldn't fight with every ounce of strength they have if their life were threatened.

Again, I´m referring to christian morality based on the "Mount Sermon". This is the base of that religion.

 Quote:
Not every body was equal(that was stated in the French Revolution influenced by christians), but aristocracy, as in the animal kingdom, was the rule.

The strongest and inteligent ruled the world.


Aristocracy in the animal kingdom and the strongest and intelligent ruled the world? No and definitely not.

Are you sure about this?

Aristocracy ruled always in the past, even in the "democratic" Greece, only a small group of senators elected a governor.

In the animal kingdom, gregarian animals are ruled by a few or only one, like lions(only one mate all the females) and he commands other lions, gorillas, wolves and other animals are structured in a hierarchy manner.


 Quote:

-Satnists are aristocrats in the sense that they are a few people that don´t deny their instincts.


You are obviously misusing the word. Aristocracy is a form of government whereby rule is reserved for the highest social classes.

Not the highest social classes, but the best qualified. wiseness and inteligence are the only criteria to govern in an aristocratic system

When I say that satanists are aristocrat is that they believe in a moral sustained by aristocrats in ancient times, and even now, that is:

Pride, strenghth, inteligence, good sense, enjoyment of life, stetic, courage, etc. All this values are oposed to christianism morality. You alredy know it, you have read the SB.

Also, I deny my instincts sometimes. There will come times where someone says something that pisses me off and my first instinct is to kick them in the teeth but I don't because that isn't the best course of action. It is not that Satanists don't deny their instincts, rather they realize that such things are human and not something to be ashamed of as the Judeo-Christian religions would have us believe.

In this I agree with you, a satanist is a Gentleman, he won´t do whatever happens through his head, I´m saying that he or she recognizes his or her basic instincts, but don´t deny them and is not ashamed by them.

 Quote:
Not every body can do this. Centuries of "sinfull" mind teached by judeo-christian religions have rotten today´s human capacity to act like satanists(that is, like healthy people).


Exactly, not everyone can do that. Therefore, your belief that "everybody is a Satanist" is a false belief.

They are satanists in the sense that they have the same instincts that you and I have.Satanism is about exalting our instincts, that´s what we do. Sins torment them, not to us, but they would like to do the same we do.

That won´t make them satanists, but they have a potential towards it because is their nature.


In fact all we know that christian morality is only for parishioners, not for priesthood and pastors, they all act against the christian principles, but they make the rules and behave without "Mount Sermon" principles, they are their aristocracy, they behave the way they want as thought they were satanists.



Edited by Cesare Borgia (01/09/10 06:03 PM)

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#35800 - 02/19/10 05:34 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Anonymous]
CanisMajor Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
I disagree completely,hellbent666.

It appears that you define being Satanist as strict adherence to TSB or awareness of ceremonial magic.Neither apply to the equation.

Ambition,independence,creativity,intellect:all are Satanic qualities that can be nurtured,but are often inborn and hard-wired.Diabolical existentialist that I may be,I truly believe that some folks are actually born lazy,conformist,uncreative and stupid.

However,the image of toddlers screaming "Shemhamforash" had me laughing my ass off
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For every complex problem,there is a solution that is simple,neat,and wrong.
H.L Mencken

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#35827 - 02/19/10 04:58 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Noctuary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
The disposition of certain people more easily lends itself to learning critical skills like creativity, lateral thinking, non-conformity, self-reliance, etc. To a certain degree, this is nature, but there is also a lot of nurture involved. In much the same way that you can't teach a quadriplegic how to wrestle, you can't make everyone non-conformists.

My most important job is that of being a parent. I hope that I can raise my kid to make intelligent choices for herself. I don't want to make a copy of myself. That would be a complete and utter waste. If I can do right by her, I will have given someone I love a good chance at making it in life.

Some people are naturally disposed to becoming non-conformists, individualists, etc. I like those people. They're like people, only better. Guess what they're called?

I agree that Satanism involves both nature and nurture. I really get annoyed by those that claim you have to be 'Born a Satanist' and not just become one. It's snobby. It's like when I go on Pagan forums and they introduce themselves and give the long list of lords and ladies they descend from as a reason they are 'special'. Just bs.

Gays. You are either born gay or become gay. Either way you suck cock. And that's all that matters.
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#35830 - 02/19/10 05:52 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3883
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I really get annoyed by those that claim you have to be 'Born a Satanist' and not just become one.

I get annoyed by the fluffies that try to turn Satanism into some egalitarian self help system. I guess we all have our pet peeves.

Those that are Satanists understand that not just anybody can 'convert' to it, and why. Anyone can study the Satanic Bible and proclaim themselves a Satanist, but that doesn't make it so. The type of person that actually sees the world as a Satanist does and acts accordingly is a rare thing indeed.
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#35833 - 02/19/10 06:46 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I have to agree with Dan on this.
You can claim to be anything you want, but it doesn't make it so.

Maw, most parents suck at raising kids.
I think it is more nature than nurture, people are just hard wired differently.

I will use my family as an example.
Same parents, same female sex, each a year apart.

Me = Satanist, flexible on issues that I care about
Sibling 1 = Born again Xitian, conservative/liberal
Sibling 2 = Religious non practicing Xitian, red republican

You can't really change who are inside, you might be able to lie about it, but when you look in the mirror, you know the true heart of the matter.

Morgan
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#35849 - 02/20/10 04:32 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
Noctuary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
 Quote:

I really get annoyed by those that claim you have to be 'Born a Satanist' and not just become one.

I get annoyed by the fluffies that try to turn Satanism into some egalitarian self help system. I guess we all have our pet peeves.

Those that are Satanists understand that not just anybody can 'convert' to it, and why. Anyone can study the Satanic bible and proclaim themselves a Satanist, but that doesn't make it so. The type of person that actually sees the world as a Satanist does and acts accordingly is a rare thing indeed.

Oh I agree with you. I am simply saying there are many reasons people become Satanists. And I am pretty sure it's in the gray area of nature/nurture. To me it doesn't matte if you were born a Satanist or not. It's not going to do you any good to pronounce it in kindergarten. \:D
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#35867 - 02/20/10 06:20 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: New York
I think if you change the word “Satanism” to “Free Spirit,” you can tell at a very early age if a person is one or not. Actually, someone other then the person themselves might not see it until later in life, but if a person is not born with a true Free Spirit, it is unlikely that they can develop that nature, even if they ACT like they possess that trait. Even when society crushes that inborn spirit for independence, I doubt that they can ever truly put out that deep spark within.
Same goes for Satanism. No matter what circumstance a person is born into, there has to be that initial Satanic spark inside of them. Even if it is suppressed by the individual or society it is always there.

I believe that it is more likely that one can be born a Satanist, and never have the opportunity to live as one, as opposed to being born as a non Satanist, and then becoming one later in life.

As for
 Quote:
I really get annoyed by those that claim you have to be 'Born a Satanist' and not just become one


You can be annoyed by it all that you wish to let yourself be annoyed by it, but it doesn't make it untrue. ;\)

My opinion only.
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"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#35887 - 02/21/10 09:05 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Asmedious]
CanisMajor Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
A predisposed inclination towards independence is a rarity among herd animals. There's no impetus to "break away". It is simply NOT herd behavior. And CANNOT be learned.

The implication here is that pack animals usually do not survive without the pack,so they almost never develop the desire to do so. Darwinism for Dummies.

You may be able to nurture a non-conformist spirit,but you cannot create one.



Edited by CanisMajor (02/21/10 09:07 AM)
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For every complex problem,there is a solution that is simple,neat,and wrong.
H.L Mencken

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#35895 - 02/21/10 11:49 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Asmedious]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
I believe that it is more likely that one can be born a Satanist, and never have the opportunity to live as one, as opposed to being born as a non Satanist, and then becoming one later in life.


This statement rings so true on so many levels, it's almost scary. I think many people never allow themselves to explore far enough to truly know what or who they are. They like fitting into the definition of normal more than they like themselves. I was relieved to figure out that all the "things" I had suppressed for so long were actually the norm for me. I find it interesting that what I draw, create, or what I like is considered "dark" to those around me. But then again, I've always been drawn to the "forbidden", as far back as I can remember. That's not to say that I don't enjoy many things that are considered normal, like comfy old jeans and a t-shirt.
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#35898 - 02/22/10 02:42 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Nyte]
Noctuary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
Hmm seems the consensus is leaning toward you are born with the predisposition to be a Satanist more often then not. I won't disagree with that idea. Though I don't think it's 100% accurate. . Though from my point of view I think differently. When I was Muslim and studying the Qu'ran etc I learned something pretty nifty. Islam believes all humans are born Muslims. And that when people who become Muslim consciously are called reverts and not converts. Re-enforcing the idea of always being a Muslim from birth. So...of course I don't really think that's accurate. The same way I don't think you are born a Satanist. Because then...well the two start to sound similar. And I then have to put that whole idea on the back burner. Because then it starts to sound like religious gumbo. So I am going to stick with the idea that you aren’t born a Satanist no more then you are born a Muslim. Unless you’d like to tackled the concept of Satanic Muslims…which I have been known to describe myself as when feeling silly.

And that's just my opinion as someone who has been on a few sides of religion ;\)
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#35899 - 02/22/10 04:24 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
CanisMajor Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
By that interpretation of Islam,the implication is that we are all birthed into some sort of egalitarian "Brotherhood of Man",thereby making everyone a de facto Muslim by default.

Made in gods' image,
everybody the same.

This is herd conformity. Nurture at its worst.

Brotherhood has no place in Satanism.
_________________________
For every complex problem,there is a solution that is simple,neat,and wrong.
H.L Mencken

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#35902 - 02/22/10 03:18 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: CanisMajor]
Noctuary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: CanisMajor
By that interpretation of Islam,the implication is that we are all birthed into some sort of egalitarian "Brotherhood of Man",thereby making everyone a de facto Muslim by default.

Made in gods' image,
everybody the same.

This is herd conformity. Nurture at its worst.

Brotherhood has no place in Satanism.



Well that's a slightly skewed view of it (though I don't blame you. Most outsiders have those sort of feelings about Islam. As did I before I got inside of it) But yes, there is no place for that in Satanism. Which is why having a core belief that Satanists are born Satanists sits wrong with me. We can't exactly reject religion and then go ahead and be it's brother in beliefs. So I think people are born human. And that's it. I don't think people are born religious or political etc etc.
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#35906 - 02/22/10 04:57 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3883
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

So...of course I don't really think that's accurate. The same way I don't think you are born a Satanist. Because then...well the two start to sound similar.

What's so wrong with similarities? You and Hitler both have(had) two arms and two legs, but that doesn't make you the same person. It's always best to check the bathwater for babies before pulling the plug.

I don't really disagree that muslims are muslims from birth. Or at least, born with the correct disposition to be one. However, the idea that EVERYONE has the same disposition is downright silly.

The main difference as I see it is Islam is an outward seeking faith based belief system for those attuned to the 'light' side, whereas Satanism is an inward seeking logic based belief system for those more in league with the dark.

That the prior is faith based leaves a lot of flexibilty as to what the adherent might believe, though. Faith works for anything, so it's pretty much a matter of who fills your head full of crap first that defines what religion you are. These faith based types sometimes end up at Satanism as well, but these pretenders are always easy to spot.

With Satanism however,being logic based rather than faith based, there is really not so much wiggle room for creativity. Reality is as it is, and that's how it is. It becomes a matter of exploring that to it's fullest rather than filling the gaps with cotton candy. When the Satanist comes to Satanism it is because there is no other option.

It's a matter of self honesty.
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#35908 - 02/22/10 08:11 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
delusion Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 77
Loc: hawaii
 Quote:
It's a matter of self honesty.


I wonder if it has more to do with a definition fetish?

We know that it takes a little more than a red card in your wallet to be a Satanist. We know it takes more than angst and a love of heavy metal.

So the daring young individual is often pointed toward TSB as it seems to be THE literary gateway into hell. Closer inspection finds that much of that book is made up of other people’s philosophical input.

Doesn't the fact that there are creative, free spirited, bold, educated, aesthetically pleasing, creative, free spirited, suitheist, nonconformists with spot on punctuation and grammar out there living in the world who know about Satanism and don't care to play the definition game show which group is impersonating the other?

Doesn't the fact that many of the authors and philosophers who make up the standards of "satanic recommended reading" never considered themselves Satanists imply that the Satanists has injected themselves into an already existing state of being/mind?

I guess it could be said that one should not define the soup by its individual ingredients. That Ayn Rand does not need to be a Satanist for her influence to lend its flavor to the meme.

But it does seem a bit like the Satanist is all too happy to go around town stealing philosophical bricks from which to build his house only to turn around and nail a note on the locked door that explains that this is a house by and for “born Satanists”. (Then again considering some of the types that knock on that door that can be an understandible move too.)

These are just some thoughts I had while reading the thread and others that follow a similar vein.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts,

Delusion


Edited by delusion (02/22/10 08:25 PM)
Edit Reason: Afterthoughts

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