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#36845 - 03/21/10 07:12 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
A person can be a natural predator, confident and aware of things as they really are, with a natural propensity to manipulate reality around them and question all things, well before reading TSB and realizing there is a name for what they are.

The same can not be said for people naturally studying hadiths, quoting the quran and praying to the east each day.

This is common sense to anyone that gets Satanism in the first place. Go be a muslim, you seem more suited to it.
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#36855 - 03/21/10 01:49 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Debbie]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1751
Loc: New York
A Satanist can be exposed to any religion and or rituals as a child and still be a Satanist.
They are the ones who ask the questions which eventually exhaust their parent’s patience and are forced through pressure, physical distress, or social ostracization to fit the mold that the parents and their society wants them in.

As stated many times before, someone who is born with the Satanic spark within them may never have the opportunity to discover themselves as a Satanist if they are never exposed to the philosophy. They may attempt to conform to their surroundings but “something,” always seems to be out of balance between them and the “rest of the world.” If they attempt and WANT to try to fit in, they will be frustrated and stressed without knowing why.

Even in the most extreme religious circles, such as the Muslim world in the middle east, there are examples of a few people who when given the slightest of opportunity, will at great risk to themselves, break away and escape those that enslave them mentally and often physically.

A Satanist never has to search for an ideal or a philosophy to adhere to, but instead is searching for an explanation and clarity as to what it is that they have always possessed within them.
Once such a person discovers the Satanic community they do not require constant verification that they fit in, nor do they feel the desire to “learn” all that they can about Satanism by examining every piece of literature and opinion that has ever been put forth on the subject, because if they have the vocabulary to express themselves they are already qualified to write the doctrines themselves.
Reading the Satanic Bible, Might is Right and works by people such as Nietzsche, Ayn Rand, and many others are not seen as learning tools as much as tools for organizing and understanding ones pre-existing beliefs.

Satanic literature is there to assist the Satanist in recognizing who they are and to let them see that there are others out there on the same path. If they are not already aware of the term “Satanist,” then they also have the opportunity to adopt the label if they wish to, in order to identify themselves with one word to those who understand what “Satanist,” means.

So yes, one is either born a Satanist, or they are not.
If you are born as one, no matter how hard you may try. you cannot be anything else. You may wear the garments of the Right Hand path, read their words, recite their chants, and even allow a piece of your dick to be cut off, but you will never be truly one of them.

If you are not born a Satanist, you can read all of our literature, attend all of our secret meetings, learn our secret handshakes, cognitively understand our philosophy inside out and backwards, and if you are really good might occasionally fool us to believe that you are indeed a Satanist, but you cannot truly become one of us.
Even if you want to be a Satanist, and we really like you and want to help you in becoming one, it cannot be done.
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#36857 - 03/21/10 02:18 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Meq Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
It would be an interesting experiment to find a Satanist who is an identical twin.
It would be better, although not totally necessary, to find a Satanist with an identical twin who was separated at birth.

If the other identical twin turns out to be a devout Christian, as well as lacking the personality traits necessary to be categorized as a Satanist on non-religious grounds - then one could safely conclude that LaVey's hypothesis has been falsified - or at least requires re-interpreting to fit the evidence (e.g. by saying that both twins were born Satanists, but one diverged later on... which unfortunately makes it less meaningful as this could apply to anyone!)

Yes, I'm an empiricist, not a dogmatist. If this approach makes anyone feel uncomfortable, I'd advise them to head on over to the Letters to the Devil forum, where LaVey's word is axiomatic and freethinkers are persecuted.
(I can't link here, but do a Google search, with quotes, for "You are not a Satanist, you are shit.")


Edited by Meq (03/21/10 02:27 PM)
Edit Reason: Lazy fingers

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#36858 - 03/21/10 03:00 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Meq]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Loc: New York
empiricist: (Empiricism–noun–Philosophy, the theory that all knowledge is derived from experience and observation.)
Yeah I will admit it, I had to look it up.

I agree that all KNOWLEDGE is derived from experience and observation. What I question is, how that knowledge is applied to personal ideals.

To give an extreme example, I may have met Jesus, seen all that he did, and even gotten verification from God himself that “J” is his son, and so on. But that knowledge in itself would not make me a Christian, if I did not accept what Jesus and God taught as my own ideal. In other words I may know what they state is true, but knowing doesn’t automatically make me “one of them.”
Out of fear of retribution I may claim to be a follower, and follow all of the customs that comes with being a follower, but on the inside I would feel greatly resentful, not to mention I would possibly lose self respect.

As for the identical twin experiment, I am doubtful if it would prove or disprove “the born satanist” theory either way.
I am in no way an expert on twins, but as far as I am aware, identical twins although they share many of the same traits (genes too I think?) can still have different personalities even at a young age, while being raised and exposed to the same environment. The ‘good twin’ and the ‘bad twin’ scenario comes to mind.
Again my knowledge of twins is limited to my exposure of a few written articles and science type specials on t.v, so I am definitely open to being wrong on this.

I do believe that the natural ability to think differently from ones indoctrinations comes from deeper within then from what is derived from experience and observation. I would like to say that it is likely in the genes, but if I clung to that idea, then that might contradict my notion that identical twins with identical genes can still have different personalities.

Could there be a “Satanic” gene? Sounds stupid as hell if one says it like that, but what if the term Satanic is removed from the equation and one asks, “could there be a gene in humans that would make it impossible for them to accept indoctrination to certain belief systems on the deepest levels?”

I believe that it has been shown that there are people who very well MIGHT be genetically predisposed to ACCEPT religious, and other common herd like indoctrination, therefore one might presume that the opposite could be true as well; either by having something extra or lacking something that most have in their genetic make up.
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#36859 - 03/21/10 03:59 PM Born a Satanist VS Existentialist philosophy [Re: Asmedious]
Meq Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
While I am not an existentialist, many here have expressed some sympathy towards existentialist philosophy, so I'd like to add another angle to the debate.

In existentialism, claiming to be born with any kind of fixed "essence", and identifying with such "essence" as one sees oneself, is considered an act of bad faith or inauthenticity.

This is because, as Jean-Paul Sartre put it, "man is nothing other than what he makes of himself" - so claiming to have identified one's "essence", and to claim to live in accordance with it, is seen as an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for what one chooses to make of oneself - an act of intellectual and moral cowardice.

This clash is interesting, since Satanism also strongly advocates individuality, personal responsibility and vital existence. However, the notion that "Satanists are born, not made" is an 'essentialist' idea, and thus highly anti-existentialist.

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#36867 - 03/21/10 07:09 PM Re: Born a Satanist VS Existentialist philosophy [Re: Meq]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well, as Morgan would say, it's either in you or it isn't. I have known there was something 'different' about me my whole life. Whether what made me what I am is pure genetics or a combination of genetics and early childhood experience isn't really important to me. By the time my personality had formed, I was what I am.

Trying to deconstruct this though philosophy may provide some insight, but it certainly won't change anything. Those of us that ARE, know we are. This isn't revealed knowledge or a faith based assumption, but rather the culmination of a lifetime of dealing with those that are not like us.
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#36869 - 03/21/10 08:08 PM Re: Born a Satanist VS Existentialist philosophy [Re: Meq]
SOLERIFT Offline
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Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 31
Loc: Dallas, TX
 Originally Posted By: Meq
This clash is interesting, since Satanism also strongly advocates individuality, personal responsibility and vital existence. However, the notion that "Satanists are born, not made" is an 'essentialist' idea, and thus highly anti-existentialist.

It's funny - I realize just how "existential" I am by reading the above. My first inclination is to say : the differences between an existentialist and a Satanist can be almost arbitrary. That is not to say that either model, taken to the extreme, will still be identical, but that for most Satanists, our philosophy started with a very existential question - "why"?

I guess a purely dogmatic existentialist would never congeal a personality, for lack of want to commit the sin of collapsing into definition, whereas a Satanist, is self-defined and chooses a definition to suit themselves.

I have defined myself in somewhat different ways at different times in my life, and my definition has always been somewhat malleable. I am as detached from the personality I have projected as I am from belief itself. That's pretty existentialist.

I have that knack for bending "circumstance" to my advantage one way or another. I can dawn a perspective simply for the enjoyment of understanding, without having to make it "my perspective".

I realize that I am WHATEVER I CHOOSE to make myself - I know this because as a Satanist, I have had an "awareness of self", for lack of a better term, for as long as I can remember.

It's a paradox - I cannot say that I was not born with this, but at the same time, I cannot say that I have not also made choices along the way that have led to my current mental/emotional disposition. It reminds me of the old argument : heredity vs environment.

Without several crucial experiences in my life, not the least of which was discovering Anton's book that defined Satanism as a philosophy for the first time - I would probably not define myself as a Satanist. In spirit, I would still be, but the label might have never occurred to me.

To me, saying I was born a Satanist is not literal, but an extenuation of my pride - meant to be exclusionary, to indicate a sincere admiration for those who share my love of the persona of the "adversary".

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#36883 - 03/22/10 03:26 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
Noctuary Offline
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Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
A person can be a natural predator, confident and aware of things as they really are, with a natural propensity to manipulate reality around them and question all things, well before reading TSB and realizing there is a name for what they are.

The same can not be said for people naturally studying hadiths, quoting the quran and praying to the east each day.

This is common sense to anyone that gets Satanism in the first place. Go be a muslim, you seem more suited to it.

Are you referring to me? Because there is a post between mine and yours. And before I have at you.. I'd like to make sure it's me you are referring to.
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#36888 - 03/22/10 07:46 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
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 Quote:

Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]

Yes I was talking to you, as anyone that can read can plainly see.

Feel free to 'have at me'. You may want to pray to allah for guidance first. You're gonna need it. ;\)
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#36889 - 03/22/10 08:04 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
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A Satanist could never submit their will to some imaginary being, especially one that represents everything Satanism is not. That your mind is weak enough to even be able to entertain doing that is pretty conclusive evidence that you are probably a pretender. I look forward to your reply ;\)

Edited by Dan_Dread (03/22/10 08:05 AM)
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#36892 - 03/22/10 09:58 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Wake Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 93
Loc: Australia
Well done Maw.

Not intending to kiss some behind but I am actually 'grateful' you wrote this. All the former mislocated thoughts in my head (on the subject) were all simultaneously rearranged.
Cheers mate.
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#36899 - 03/22/10 01:44 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Wake]
felixgarnet Offline
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Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
I enjoyed that, Maw and agree with your theory (would I had the energy and motivation to have expressed myself so clearly). The nature/nurture debate about human beings will run on ad infinitum - inevitably, because the observer and observed cannot be separated. This conundrum will occur when discussing a propensity for Satanism as it will in discussing one for serial killing or musical composition.
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#36905 - 03/22/10 05:38 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
exadust Offline
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Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 91
Loc: georgia
I don't think anyone else could have said it any better.

If a person doesn't have anything to question or oppose how would that person know.

I would have always known that I was more capable than others but if I had never been exposed to organized religion I wouldn't have an outlet for people's ignorance. I mean most people's ignorance is reflected by their beliefs and without religion you would just have to say that most of the world's population is moronic and that is just pathetic!
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#36914 - 03/22/10 08:58 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
However, I am not a determinist, and would say that the manifold intricacies of the human mind allow us to break away from the mold.


Well therein lay the crux of the issue. If you believe in 'freewill' as some essence that is somehow beyond the chains of cause and effect, then anyone can become anything. However in my opinion to invoke this kind of 'magical' thinking is no different than introducing a deity, or karma, or any other 'magical' x-factor into play, and leads nowhere useful.
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#36937 - 03/23/10 03:16 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
Noctuary Offline
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Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
 Quote:

Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]

Yes I was talking to you, as anyone that can read can plainly see.

Feel free to 'have at me'. You may want to pray to allah for guidance first. You're gonna need it. ;\)

I wanted to make sure. I prefer to think before I speak. Or I could end up sounding like an ass. Something I am sure mods on various forums have made clear you act like. I make no bones about stating at one point in my life I was going to revert to Islam because I fell in love. I tried to be something I am not and it actually came between my partner and I. Now that I am gaining ground back at my original balance of things.. I have become a happier person...something that is now bringing my partner and I back together. Though I am not a Muslim I still don't hold ill will towards the religion. Not taking up argument against it doesn't mean I am now a Muslim or am better suited toward it. Only I would know that for sure. And to have you questioning a complete stranger make you come off as ignorant. I've had no ill will with you yet you seem to want to take a jab where you can. All because maybe on the other forum you decided to act all high and mighty and pretend to have some 'secret knowledge' of people? Oh please. You got owned. Your ass handed to you and now here you are to pout...and of course all done...by my partner. Your apparent personal grudge is petty. Go pee on some other person's leg boy.
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