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#26527 - 07/01/09 08:10 AM Born a Satanist
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Just to tickle on the concept of people being 'born' a satanist.

Can we firstly, honestly say that most satanists are born that way?

And expanding, arent we all born satanists, in being primarily instinctively driven until formed by external, genetic, social factors as we grow?

And then isnt the whole Satanism philosophy founded by a person who was a product of society, their own personal life etc.

I personally, I wouldnt consider, wasnt 'born' a satanist. I admit that. I have always had a open mind and interested in all manner of philosophy, and when I saw Satanism come up on wiki, i was curious. So i went through and saw all the devil worship crap (and saw it immediately as crap) and then found this other side of it which was LaVey.

Month or so of interest and internet research and then I ordered the Satanic Bible and read it and was possibly the best book Ive read and I would say i found the philosophy a very sound one and so I follow it and my base principles are based on it. I practice and observe alot of lesser black magic that goes one and try and learn myself on it through my own experience.
I use LaVeys ideas often in arguments as well. I generally live my life on this philosophy that I 'discovered' and having no previous ideas asides the basic contradiction of christianity idea that most people have before getting into Satanism.

So im not born a satanist, but after reading my own little story can one say that I am not a satanist because of that.

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#26528 - 07/01/09 08:21 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Jester Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Born a satanist or not, you don't need someone to tell you whether you are a satanist or not. Whether you choose to use moniker of satanist or not is honestly irrelevant. Walk your own path, don't seek adoration from anyone. Satanism has always been about individuality, walk the road that leads you to the goals you wish to obtain.
_________________________
"...And I thought my jokes were bad."

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#26530 - 07/01/09 08:25 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Jester]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I agree, but its definitely a negative if the founder of Satanism thinks you arent genuine CoS you werent born a satanist.

Im just putting this out there for the sake of clarifying it with other people.

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#26549 - 07/01/09 10:17 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
satansydney Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
i think satanists are born, certain life experiences brings it out in them.
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#26587 - 07/01/09 05:17 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: satansydney]
Demonic Moroni Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 18
Loc: Arizona
I think the whole 'Satanists are born, not made' deal is really just saying that Satanism isn't a philosophy to mold yourself to. You can really only be a Satanist if LaVeyan Satanist philosophy is a reflection of your already-held beliefs. That way, one could, with a fair degree of accuracy, say that they are a born Satanist.
_________________________
"Here I stand; I can do no otherwise."
Shemhamforash!
Hail Satan

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#26592 - 07/01/09 06:48 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Demonic Moroni]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Every person is made up of his body and mind (the hardware) and his experiences (the software). Every brain is wired a bit differently, everyone thinks sees feels and tastes things a bit different as well. To simplify things, most brains are like computers simply taking in the software programmed into them. If this brain is comparable to a shitty computer then no matter the quality of software the end product is just another idiot/ shitty computer.

This is why I’ve seen students of Yale ask how the tattoo machine knew when to turn on, not how we turned it on and off. After being told it was tuned to the synopsis of our brain and turned on when we looked at them, the cries of joy over the miracles of modern technology were just too much to believe. They didn’t even think bullshit or happen to notice the footswitch wired to the power supply. They had a very limited power of observation, not a very powerful mind. This is our future was all I could think. This was an example of good software, as Yale is supposed to be one of the best being wasted on shitty hardware. No matter how much these buffoons learn they can only parrot this learned knowledge. Nothing will change the fact that they are blind to most reality.

Now if this persons brain is wired in such a way that thought patterns happen on a higher level than the next guy. He questions things rather than being satisfied with any answer given. Some higher thinking brains never see better software than general public grade school. Perhaps they are satisfied in the fantasy they have been led to believe since they were young such as religion. This brain can still out perform the more common model. This is why we can say so many people act satanic but are still Christian, etc.

Then there are the elite. The elitist brain will on its own no matter the life experiences it has, seek out better software or its own programming. This explains how many of us while being force-fed religion with the others said wait a minute. We saw and questioned the discrepancies in the logic being shown to us and dared to do our own research to draw our own conclusions.

This is where elitism stands for me in your thinking. You are either elite and think on a higher level than most sheep or you are simply just another blinded sheep. The truly elite will always strive to become more not being happy with being second best but also not looking to make unrealistic claims. This higher thinking, search for better knowledge and balance of knowing your own limitations to me is what defines the true elite.

This is also why I cannot be bothered wasting my time on hating many ingrates. They are what they are, I almost believe they have no choice in the matter some are hardwired to need religion and dogma. Most are hardwired ignorant. They are simply there taking up space, simply more sheep to manipulate to my will.

These are my beliefs. Who gives a fuck what anyone calls me.

We are the evolution of humanity, We are the future.

~T~

PS. No physical harm has been done to any words in this post. Any part where the word “we” has been used a stunt double was brought in so there was no undo stress caused to the word we or us. Thank you.
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#26618 - 07/01/09 11:50 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: ta2zz]
Jester Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
A lot of people need to label themselves and others. They need to be able to fit things into a specific paradigm, the "average" person needs to be able to explain and control the things around him. They need to put things into a box so they can organize, seperate and control. Even the people who think "outside the box." I like to think that their is no box.

To quote Bruce Lee, "Be formless... shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, or it can crash. Be water, my friend..."

He wasn't just talking about a fighting style, he was talking about living life in general.

Another great Lee quote, "Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it."
_________________________
"...And I thought my jokes were bad."

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#26688 - 07/02/09 06:17 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Jester]
god.over.djinn Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
Hi Atralux Lucis,

It seems to me that some people are just wired to "get" the general Satanic philosophy. They may never read the works of LaVey (although they would not turn down the chance out of fear, if the opportunity presented itself). They may even - in fact, probably will - regard anyone as silly who goes around advertising themselves as a Satanist. To them, you don't need to tell them that you're a Satanist, because if you explain the philosophy that you live by, they will understand what you are talking about. They will say: "That is just common sense!" They will recognise you as a worthy opponent, and hence will treat you with the dignity you deserve.

Anyone else will certainly not get it, and they do not want to. If they ever pluck up the courage to even touch one of LaVey's books (or even one of Crowley's!), it would only be to confiscate and burn it. If you try to present your philosophy using rational and critical arguments drawn from science and modern philosophy, they will produce an endless string of moralistic "but! but! but!"s. Trying to talk these people around to anything like a sensible view point on the world is a waste of breath. They are there to be either used, destroyed, or ignored, for they are good for nothing else. They will not consider you a worthy opponent. They will consider you with rabid phobia born from their unacknowledged need to worship you.

This is the way of things. But maybe it would be better to say that Satanic people, and not Satanists specifically, are born and not made?
_________________________
SATAN, a recursive acronym invented by GOD: "SATAN: Advocating The Adversarial Nihilist"

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#26690 - 07/02/09 07:25 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
Can we firstly, honestly say that most satanists are born that way?


Yes. The Satanic philosophy is not for everyone or just anybody who finds it appealing. Satanists are such because of instinct. It's not your typical religion, therefore Satanists are not your typical people. Anyone who is born into a Christian family can one day decide to denounce their faith. With Satanism it's different. The Satanist knows the basic principles of Satanism even before reading The Satanic Bible, in fact, a real Satanist will read The Satanic Bible and realize what they are simply by reading their own thoughts on paper.

 Quote:
I use LaVeys ideas often in arguments as well. I generally live my life on this philosophy that I 'discovered' and having no previous ideas asides the basic contradiction of christianity idea that most people have before getting into satanism.


You see, that's the thing. Anyone who isn't a Satanist thinks that Satanism is a creation of Anton LaVey. Don't get me wrong, LaVey did write The Satanic Bible, found the Church of Satan and he was the first person to call this group of ideas Satanism. But when you really think about it, whether you call it Satanism or what not, the basic principles of the philosophy have been around for a long, long time. LaVey even mentions this in The Satanic Bible.

 Quote:
So im not born a satanist, but after reading my own little story can one say that I am not a satanist because of that.


Well, yes. I'd hate to be the one to break it to you, but if you don't understand the concept of Satanists being "born and not made", then you don't have a full understanding of Satanism, therefore cannot be considered a Satanist. When we say we are born Satanists, we mean the philosophy of Satanism comes natural for us. Even if Anton LaVey had never existed and Satanism was never established as a religion, the principles of Satanism would still exist. The only difference is the ideas would be scattered all over the world, and the people who followed each and every one of them wouldn't have a title.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#26691 - 07/02/09 07:28 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: god.over.djinn]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
But maybe it would be better to say that Satanic people, and not Satanists specifically, are born and not made?


Actually it would be the opposite. Satanists are born (refer to my last post), but anyone can be Satanic.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#26692 - 07/02/09 07:51 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Mike]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I think LaVey pointed out the 'principles' of Satanism were around before him not necessarily Satanism. I think Satanism is more of giving all these ideas and concepts form into a religion.

Following that we establish that these principles outside of Satanism are quite scattered so it would be rather unlikely for a person to have all of the same beliefs. So if one was to see only 1 or 2 of their beliefs reflected in the Satanic Bible would one be a satanist?
And what if after read TSB that the points and principles expressed in it bring out beliefs one doesnt consciously recognize but has acted upon anyways?

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#26693 - 07/02/09 08:23 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
I think LaVey pointed out the 'principles' of satanism were around before him not necessarily satanism. I think Satanism is more of giving all these ideas and concepts form into a religion.


Exactly my point.

 Quote:
So if one was to see only 1 or 2 of their beliefs reflected in the Satanic Bible would one be a satanist?


No. This was discussed on another thread as well. Satanists follow Satanism as it is, period. You can be Satanic and follow certain aspects of Satanism, which is what most who claim to be Satanists do, but real Satanists are born.

 Quote:
And what if after read TSB that the points and principles expressed in it bring out beliefs one doesnt consciously recognize but has acted upon anyways?


Well that's part of it. Whether you follow the principles consciously or subconsciously prior to discovering Satanism by yourself, if you are truly a Satanist when you read The Satanic Bible it should be nothing more than what you already believe expressed on paper.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#26695 - 07/02/09 09:06 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Damis Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 60
Loc: England
Obviously there are external factors such as society and culture which are bound to influence people even if the individual views it in a negative way. However it should also be taken into account that at least in my experience, people are born different from each other in a similar way to how everyone looks different from each other. For example, two siblings brought up in the same environment and culture will have roughly if not completely different personalities.

Taking this view, you could also compare it to political views, you could take two people who are both exposed to identical external influences, and it is possible that one may lean towards the left wing and one may lean towards the right wing, both believing that they are right because it makes sense to them.

If we attribute those to what is currently in question, it is entirely possible that someone through their views, behavior, actions and beliefs could be defined as a "Satanist" because it makes sense to them, this seems to me the most probable explanation to the theory of being born a "Satanist". People may think of themselves as being a born Satanist because what is described in TSB may just naturally make sense to them.

Looking at TSB, it is intended to be a description of an already existing but previously unlabeled set of values and beliefs, throughout the book it employs a third person narrative, "The satanist will", at no instance to my memory does it tell the reader to do anything, there is no second person narrative, e.g "You will". Looking at this I think there is no grounds on which to claim that the text is seeking to convert the reader. It offers the reader nothing, it does not speak directly to the reader, it is but a description. To which a "Born Satanist" would read and agree with and by just being themselves they are the label which is Satanism.

Again, comparing this to a political belief, I cannot see myself unwillingly changing my views in an attempt to suit a certain set of beliefs, I myself am not for example a Socialist, I could join a Socialist party, I could vote for a Socialist party but by just conforming to the beliefs against my own would not make me a "Socialist". Going along the same argument, if someone had to go against their own thoughts and force themselves to agree with what is described in TSB without actually believing in it. Then they would not be a Satanist. You could join CoS but that would not make you a Satanist.

Quite a disordered post but my base response is that you cannot truthfully be something that you are not. You can apply all the academic reasoning you like, but in the end if it seems incorrect to an individual then it is not them.

The difference lies in the descriptive format of TSB,theoretically if someone reads it and sees their own views, then they are the label that is Satanism, if they do not agree with what is described then they are not.

You can't make a cat a bird by sticking feathers to it, nor can you be a Satanist by just saying you agree with TSB.

However I am not saying that by just instinctively agreeing with what is described in the TSB would automatically mean you are a Satanist. It is one thing to agree and think you are what is being described. It is another to actually do what is described.
_________________________
Leben ist krieg.

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#26696 - 07/02/09 09:21 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Mike]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
My point was because one person cannot read the Satanic Bible and say everything in it was a pure reflection of how they live their life. Its extremely unlikely. I meant their would be parallels with certain aspects and the rest would be the reader finding new ideas they agree with and now hold as their own.

Lets say I read TSB and believed in everything written there but hadnt really thought about it before, would I then be a satanist or must I consciously recognise those beliefs myself before even discovering a religion for it?

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#26698 - 07/02/09 09:44 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Damis Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 60
Loc: England
Of course it is highly unlikely that someone will be in a 100% agreement with TSB. However that goes along with my earlier mention of two people not being entirely the same. The general line of belief may be similar between the two people but there will be similarities. Identifying with the vast majority of the TSB would certainly point in the direction of the individual being a Satanist. However there will be points where of course a person will think differently. This would be an example of individualism if two Satanists disagreed over a certain point, however even if a Satanist was to disagree with a particular point described in the TSB, they could still very well still have a satanic view as it were on the given subject.

The TSB is but an attempt to describe and label what is called "Satanism". By saying that only what is said in the TSB is Satanic is just the same to me as someone saying that what is written in the Bible is the only true word of god.

What the TSB does is to set out a general line. If someone does not meet that general line at least, then chances are they are not a Satanist.

As for consciously recognizing, it is not a question of if the person already thinks about what is described before even reading it. It is a question of if they already DO, already ARE what is being described in the TSB. A person doesn't just read it then agree and then bing! They are a Satanist, an actual Satanist will have been a Satanist before they even learn of there being an actual description of it or label.
_________________________
Leben ist krieg.

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