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#37165 - 03/31/10 01:30 AM The First Satanic Church
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
As expressed in the last paragraph of my introductory post, I have considered applying for membership in the First Satanic Church. Their policy of screening all applicants and requiring that they actually print and mail application requests by post are admirable measures toward filtering out the lazy, servile, faddish, and stupid. I also respect Karla LaVey's professed desire to structure the church in a way which honors her father's original schemata, especially in light of the failure of Peter Gilmore's blustering leadership to do the same and, in due acknowledgment of my differences with Dr. Aquino, the Temple of Set's pronounced incongruity with the writings of Anton LaVey as such.

Nevertheless, I have already stated some of my problems and concerns about the church, the most notable, again, being that its website betrays it, at least in appearance, as a stagnant organization. With a burgeoning list of purely social events unaccompanied by the slightest balance in the way of intellectual content, together with clear indications that the site has not been meaningfully updated since its creation (e.g., in its reference to the Church of Satan's $100 membership fee, a cost which was doubled years ago), I am in no rush to seek entry as a member before finding out more, if at all.

To that end, can anyone provide further details about the church? What is the church's leadership structure like? Does it have a priesthood? How does it respond to the existence of members outside the San Francisco area? What is your personal opinion of the church?

Input from within the First Satanic Church would obviously be the most helpful here, but any reliable information would be appreciated. Please specify in your post whether or not you are a member.


Z.
_________________________
Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#37192 - 03/31/10 03:47 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Zophos]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
I am not a member of Karla LaVey's First Satanic Church, however as far as I am aware (with the exception of a loose affiliation with The 600 Club) the First Satanic Church is not an online organization, and does all of its activities "in the real world".

It is also much harder to get into than Gilmore's church (for which anyone with $200 may apply), and with its elitist standards is not going to be easy to join.

The FSC is also based in San Francisco. I am unaware of the extent to which they cater for members outside this area, or if there are regular meetings held outside of San Francisco.

We have members of the FSC here (xear is a senior member, and in charge of the600club.com), however the workings of the FSC remain a mystery to the vast majority of 600 members (myself included).

Perhaps Karla is somewhat suspicious of the Internet.
I know Gilmore has his gripes with the Web too (outside of his own CoS discussion forum that is).


P.S. http://www.satanicchurch.com appears to be down.
Edit: It's now back up.


Edited by Meq (04/02/10 05:42 PM)
Edit Reason: FSC site now back up

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#37197 - 03/31/10 07:44 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Zophos]
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
Addendum: I have managed to acquire the answers to some of my questions from a post in the "First Satanic Church vs. The Church of Satan" thread. I had searched the forum at length hoping to find a succinct explanation of the First Satanic Church's operational framework, but failed to do so until my serendipitous discovery today. I can hardly call it a masterpiece of stylistic integrity or cohesion of thought, but since the information provided is official and there does not seem to be a thread here specifically concerning what the First Satanic Church is about, I am reposting it here for the benefit of other members. Numerous errors in spelling and grammar have been corrected, inane expressions ("lol," et al.) removed, and extraneous material truncated with ellipses. I have also responded with my thoughts to the included statement in another post below.


Z.




From Fluffy D. Bunny:

As a friend of Karla's LaVey and an 10-year member of the FSC, I would like to add some clarifications.

(. . .)

So first I want to tell you that a major difference in the FSC than ANY other group is that we don't have positionary titles. Titles are nothing more than good-guy badges and a false sense of self-importance. In our organization, to be important, you must become important. Not in the eyes of the church, but in the eyes of everyday people. We strive to be something better than "How many essays can you write?" or "What ritual did you do?" We want immortality through our outside actions. We want to "Xeper," if I may borrow the word, in a much broader way. We want to impact the world and shape it to our will for the benefit of all mankind.

We are atheistic for the most part. Many of us do believe in a universal energy. Think of it as electricity running the show, but we don't worship it. Everyone has a different way of expressing it; I like to [say that] we are the opposite of Buddhism. But those are my words, not others.

Some of us do not have a need for formal rituals and don't perform them as a group. Some still like to do them, but we feel that they are nothing more than dogma to help an individual to change a current path of thinking. Many of us have retired the need for them because we feel that it causes too much confusion for some individuals who may become reliant on such a practice, which is counterproductive. It also doesn't help that many of these practices were meant to be nothing more than a "show" for the public and the practices of mocking other religions really isn't necessary.

We do not have an online presence. We do have a website. We meet in public a lot and we also have public events such as Black X-Mas and the Valentine show, etc. We are not segregated to San Francisco, but the most high-profile events are held there.

Although we meet, we do not have what are called grottos or pylons. (. . .) But people do seem to hook up and do things on their own, which is more functional. I like to say we are a network of people who rely on each other to get things done, even if it's only moral support.

I am involved in politics and other than the ToS, I don't think any other group is. (. . .)

We don't let you become a member because you send in money. We are much more like the ToS here. You need to send a letter (note: best to write clearly). FSC is looking for you to be very honest on what you believe, why you want to be a member, what you expect of us and generally who you are. This isn't a contest and it isn't an elite club.

If your beliefs align with the Church and what its goals are, then you will undoubtedly become a member. If [they] don't, why would you want to be one? You should belong to a group that you mesh well with. Plus, we always stand by our statement that you DO NOT NEED TO JOIN A GROUP to be a Satanist. And yes, it takes a long time to get a response. But that is because Karla oversees responses to each and every person who is accepted. She is very busy, but if you have patience and you mesh with us... you're in. Yes we are a worldwide organization, we are not segregated to San Francisco or the United States.

There are many groups out there. When joining a group, find out if THEY believe the way you do; don't go the other way around. Do not try to fit in. You want a group where you can be yourself and grow, otherwise you're going to be miserable and accomplish nothing. Do not concern yourself if someone out there thinks the group is kooky. We all think someone is.

If you are gay/lesbian/bi or transgendered, then join a group that supports equality 100%. Join the FCS . Do not join the CoS who has gone on record saying they don't support gay marriage and only tolerate homosexuality.

If you believe in a classic Church of Satan, the FSC might be right for you.

There are now so many "denominations" of Satanism, proving that we are a bonafide religion, it doesn't make sense to join something that isn't a perfect fit for you.

I hope this clarifies some things about us. And while I am not speaking in official capacity, I am sure this is an accurate representation of us as a group.
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Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#37198 - 03/31/10 07:47 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Zophos]
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
 Quote:
So first I want to tell you that a major difference in the FSC than ANY other group is that we don't have positionary titles. Titles are nothing more than good-guy badges and a false sense of self-importance.

While I can certainly understand the desire to restrict the influx of parasitic sycophants and mongerers after unmerited authority, this conclusion is presumptuous. Titles, yes, are meaningful only insofar as they distinguish a particular function or administrative office, but their use does have its place. Responsibility in this case lies with the given organization, be it the First Satanic Church or any other, to maintain as strictly as possible an uncompromisingly meritocratic standard of excellence for official representatives and administrators. Identifying people as such is the purpose of titles, nothing more, and an organization ignores this basic fact to its own detriment.

At any rate, I hardly think that "Priest of the First Satanic Church" would be likely to gain prominence as a good-guy badge.


 Quote:
In our organization, to be important, you must become important. Not in the eyes of the church, but in the eyes of everyday people.

Please. In other words, rather than allowing a Satanic church to dictate whether or not I am important enough to "make the grade," which of course would be asinine and contradictory, the criteria for what defines my level of importance should be entrusted to the wisdom of mediocre individuals. I think not. I would like very much to know how the esteem of insipid toadies bears any connection to or significance for the life of a Satanist. The sole source of my validation lies in the motive force of my own will, self-development, hunger to learn, and retribution to those who interfere with any or all of those things. If that finds ill reception with "everyday people," they can kiss my everday ass.


 Quote:
We want to impact the world and shape it to our will for the benefit of all mankind.

"An it harm none, do as ye will." I have no desire to benefit all of mankind, and I have every reason to think that most Satanists here and elsewhere would agree. Trying to benefit the lives of unworthy, doltish, indolent, and ungrateful people, especially those for whom life passes as a series of mindless hours regardless of their means to do otherwise, is a waste of time.

"In short, run through the list of all these men from the lowest to the highest—this man desires an advocate, this one answers the call, that one is on trial, that one defends him, that one gives sentence; no one asserts his claim to himself, everyone is wasted for the sake of another. Ask about the men whose names are known by heart, and you will see that these are the marks that distinguish them: A cultivates B and B cultivates C; no one is his own master. And then certain men show the most senseless indignation—they complain of the insolence of their superiors, because they were too busy to see them when they wished an audience! But can anyone have the hardihood to complain of the pride of another when he himself has no time to attend to himself? After all, no matter who you are, the great man does sometimes look toward you even if his face is insolent, he does sometimes condescend to listen to your words, he permits you to appear at his side; but you never deign to look upon yourself, to give ear to yourself. There is no reason, therefore, to count anyone in debt for such services, seeing that, when you performed them, you had no wish for another's company, but could not endure your own. " —Seneca; De brevitate vitae, II


 Quote:
Many of us do believe in a universal energy. Think of it as electricity running the show, but we don't worship it.

Pseudo-mystical bullshit with no evidential basis whatsoever. Satanism is not prana, ch'i, the Tao, astral fluid, Brahman, life energy, Vril, animal magnetism, aether, Odic force, the World Soul, To En, kundalini, ectoplasm, Élan vital, or any other stripe of "universal energy" espoused by the deluded. Satanists are not taken in by vacuous belief; Satanists demand evidence.


Z.
_________________________
Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#37290 - 04/02/10 05:34 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Zophos]
CanisMajor Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
This forum serves my wants well enough. I care little if the FSC is a legitimate organization or simply a 'home-based business'.

However,with the apparently sycophantic "pretenders to the throne"(so to speak) currently in rut over at the hobbled CoS Inc.,it seems strange to me that this post has thus far been met with silence.

The notion that the ToS is often considered to be the vanguard of modern Satanism (whilst they eschew the term) is even stranger still.

It has been stated at this site quite often that getting Satanists to agree on anything can be much like herding cats. Was Mr. LaVey wrong in thinking that it may just be possible to collaborate with non-joiners without anybody getting a Highlander complex?
_________________________
For every complex problem,there is a solution that is simple,neat,and wrong.
H.L Mencken

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#37294 - 04/02/10 06:04 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: CanisMajor]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: CanisMajor
Was Mr. LaVey wrong in thinking that it may just be possible to collaborate with non-joiners without anybody getting a Highlander complex?


LaVey was very skeptical regarding collaborations. This is a short exerpt from the piece he did, entitled, UTOPIA AND OTHER PLEASANT DIVERSIONS from the May/June X AS Cloven Hoof:

"Amidst all kinds of factionalism, sectarianism, stratification, and obfuscation related to the Church of Satan as an organization and Satanism as a movement, one lesson can be learned: In Unity there is weakness, in dispersion there is strength. If this sounds like Orwellian double-think, it is. But it works. So-called unity, which develops beyond a small circle, breeds factionalism in any organization, unless overt dispersion is encouraged."
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#37323 - 04/03/10 12:50 AM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: CanisMajor]
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
CanisMajor:

 Quote:
However,with the apparently sycophantic "pretenders to the throne"(so to speak) currently in rut over at the hobbled CoS Inc.,it seems strange to me that this post has thus far been met with silence.

My hope of course was that there were FSC members here who could elucidate, both for myself and others on this forum, but I didn't expect it. The reason is simply that the First Satanic Church is small and keeps to itself, meaning that there are very few who can or will offer anything in the way of concrete answers to my questions or pertinent information more generally on the church's operations.


 Quote:
The notion that the ToS is often considered to be the vanguard of modern Satanism (whilst they eschew the term) is even stranger still.

That certainly has not been my experience. I have encountered exactly two people who espoused the belief you cite, and both were themselves members of the Temple of Set. I am sure that others like them exist, but their number is minuscule.


Z.
_________________________
Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#37395 - 04/05/10 03:31 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Meq]
Indrieus Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/20/10
Posts: 37
Loc: Antwerp Belgium
Hello,Well it is just good,"The First Satanic Church,is not a forum group,lyke the group from CoS in New-york,"letters to the devil"the new Amsterdam group,al go via forums or sites,in my years when I start Membership from the Grotto Magistratis Amsterdam and som time leather from CoS-San Francisco(not what it is now in Amsterdam)why had no PC all corespondence was by letters,and that work good,in this day's you have not the problems that som youngsters from 18 a 20 years old play the masters on the forum,and the have not a lidel respeckt for people who ar member for about 30 a 35 or more years,and meaby on my age from 63,I hem not so good in forum talks,why have praktic in Satanic Rituals,when why want every 9 day's,why have see and participathing Rituals so beautifull and somutch call it power you fiel in the air and your body,that not one forum can give.....,So for me ist "The First Satanic Church" thats give the members what satanisme is,felings,real filings,and I not speak of sexual energie only,the power within,and that nobody have give me that via a forum,a forum is in my eyse lyke phone sex,that is also a illusion,its a serugaat,so ar forums allso a surogaat about Satanisme,mutch powerfull words,show everybody ho good you know all about Satanism,and what have you,living in a isolatet tower,and when somone write on a forum,10 youngster ar ready to burn you in the ground........,the revalidite is what count,I know and I have spook with people and good people on this forum who know,and not want to be the best........

The only thing I have to make excuse is my Englisch Writhing,I know that...
Afther the past away of or Dr.La Vey,and administrations go to New York 1 Man and 1 women, I hem drop out,whay?
I was Grotto Master,by Dr.La Vey,and Miss Blanche Barton
I was Priest of the Church of Satan-San Francisco from the Office of Dr.La Vey.
Whe have first the B Loge and the B Grotto,and the tel us never be a member and all my papers ar falls...
Normal the summer afther the past away of the dr.La Vey whe go travel to visit,wite my girlfriend and hur dochter Dr.La Vey and Blanche Barton.(for use it was very difficult withe case dutroux
and the witchhunt on everething what was know as satanisme,everone phome me to stop membership,my girlfriend go live in a other country,I rest allone,Responcable on the respocable,what I have do almost 2 years with national securete belg)
I have evereting from official papers,and personal letters,in New york the tel I was never a Member of CoS,I have The Cloven Hoof when it was 1 yello sheet, and the Dr. end it with.......

GreetZ Indrieus
_________________________
Indrieus,What the me think about Us,Ol Sonuf Babalon....

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#37455 - 04/08/10 04:48 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Jake999]
CanisMajor Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Jake999

"Amidst all kinds of factionalism, sectarianism, stratification, and obfuscation related to the Church of Satan as an organization and Satanism as a movement, one lesson can be learned: In Unity there is weakness, in dispersion there is strength. If this sounds like Orwellian double-think, it is. But it works. So-called unity, which develops beyond a small circle, breeds factionalism in any organization, unless overt dispersion is encouraged."


Thanks for the quote,Jake.

I understand that Satanism doesn't lend itself to "group-think" easily. Is this why Mr. LaVey found himself in constant strife in relation to establishing the Grotto system? I had always assumed that "de-centralization" was the issue at hand.

If coalescence is an impractical possibility,then why even bother with creating a "church"?

Was the creation of a literal "church" the original idea Anton had in mind,or was this all intended as performance art to begin with?
_________________________
For every complex problem,there is a solution that is simple,neat,and wrong.
H.L Mencken

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#37457 - 04/08/10 06:10 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: CanisMajor]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I never once saw Dr. LaVey "in constant strife" regarding the Grotto system, but I do know that he was getting tired of some of the things that were happening, such as people "going to Denny's" in their ritual robes and generally making a spectacle of themselves, as well as the tendency of some "grotto masters" to make it all about them, rather than The Church of Satan as a viable entity. He had also seen beginnings of "them and us" thinking within the Church Grotto system, concentrated on individual grottoes or blocks of grottoes, forming a unity of those groups and individual group leaders, basically forming sects within the Church, but not under its auspices.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#37461 - 04/08/10 09:06 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: CanisMajor]
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
The Church of Satan (for whatever good or lack thereof its word might be) says the following:

 Quote:
Grottos were designed to exist organically, solely to serve the specialized interests of a particular association of local members. They were never intended to have more than a limited lifespan. When they had outgrown their purpose, they were dissolved. Chartered Grotto Masters had to regularly report their activities to the Central Office, and their charters were subject to yearly renewal. Grotto Masters were not considered de facto spokespersons for the Church of Satan, nor were Grottos local representations of our Church.

In other words, if we accept their account, the Grotto system was expunged due to having outlived a purpose which it only marginally attained in the first place. The idiotic behavior described by Jake would certainly support a more specific direction their problems took.

My own feeling is that the system and its absence result in a lose-lose situation. The status of grottoes as official chapters of the Church of Satan does mean that their actions have far greater weight in relation to the organization itself, lending a potential to create unnecessary problems. This is especially true for an organization which screens applicants with all the acumen of a soft-boiled egg. All it takes is one kook with a gun and a red card to bring a deluge of bullshit crashing down on other members and the Church's administration. On the other hand, the Church of Satan becomes a rather empty construct without local groups to facilitate meaningful interaction. Why pay money and get nothing of value in return? Formally chartered grottoes would allow for Church of Satan members, should they choose, to affiliate in a physical setting, and their official standing would serve to keep out or more strictly bar the fluff. Reducing the Church's nexus of communication more or less de facto to Letters to the Devil leaves no cohesive or interconnected purpose of any kind to the Church's existence. As an organization, it ceases to have much, "just because" choice aside, to offer.


Z.
_________________________
Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#37465 - 04/09/10 11:39 AM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Zophos]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
It all starts with purpose. Any organization needs a clear purpose, a clear driver. At the risk of sounding facetious, a compelling mission and vision. Implicit is that an organization is necessary to achieve the goal.

Humans by nature are social, so one tends to look for groups that share one's goals. It was mentioned in a thread a while ago (by Fist, IIRC ...) that Satanism is by its nature self-focused - there is no common, shared, external goal, such as salvation for all believers in the afterlife, typical of mainstream churches. Consequently, Satanism is a bad fit for an organization in the first place, except as a social group, because all the goals are personal. (The goals of the current CoS seem, to me, to simply be random goals from Lavey's writings, and only tangentially associated with "core Satanism". Just my opinion.)

Now, if one accepts the premise that the philosophy itself needs to be proselytized (regardless of the contradictions that entails), one could make a case for an organization whose purpose is to help people "be better Satanists". I'm not sure if that's any different than a social group, though. While I don't doubt that such an organization could be created and administered by Satanists who are capable of clearly separating their beliefs from their organizational duties and from non-Satanic duties and relationships, in my experience there are few people who can actually do it (in any type of group)... and then you get back to all the problems with admission, hierarchy, titles, etc. ...
_________________________
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#37466 - 04/09/10 01:30 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Jake999]
CanisMajor Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
I never once saw Dr. LaVey "in constant strife" regarding the Grotto system, but I do know that he was getting tired of some of the things that were happening, such as people "going to Denny's" in their ritual robes and generally making a spectacle of themselves, as well as the tendency of some "grotto masters" to make it all about them, rather than The Church of Satan as a viable entity. He had also seen beginnings of "them and us" thinking within the Church Grotto system, concentrated on individual grottoes or blocks of grottoes, forming a unity of those groups and individual group leaders, basically forming sects within the Church, but not under its auspices.


A strange proposition,to say the least.

As Grottos are forbidden to speak for the church, they appear to be marginalized from the outset. Administration matters aside,the task of dispelling myths,rumours,and otherwise getting the record straight should have been entrusted to the Grottoes.

I certainly do not doubt for a second that there were many who took Milton far too seriously with his "reign in hell/serve in heaven" talk. However,it's not difficult to fathom that some groups took a shot at autonomy due to their balls being apparently clipped anyhow.

I assume that the CoS had no problem with collecting those "franchise" fees,though.

 Originally Posted By: Zophos
On the other hand, the Church of Satan becomes a rather empty construct without local groups to facilitate meaningful interaction. Why pay money and get nothing of value in return? Formally chartered grottoes would allow for Church of Satan members, should they choose, to affiliate in a physical setting, and their official standing would serve to keep out or more strictly bar the fluff. Reducing the Church's nexus of communication more or less de facto to Letters to the Devil leaves no cohesive or interconnected purpose of any kind to the Church's existence. As an organization, it ceases to have much, "just because" choice aside, to offer.


Well said. Whether it be $100 or $208, if you are going to pay a "membership" fee, it helps to ask the question:

Other than hawking manufactured plastic cards to be sold at a premium, exactly what the hell is it that you actually do?
_________________________
For every complex problem,there is a solution that is simple,neat,and wrong.
H.L Mencken

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#37476 - 04/09/10 06:38 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: CanisMajor]
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
 Quote:
Administration matters aside,the task of dispelling myths,rumours,and otherwise getting the record straight should have been entrusted to the Grottoes.

Consider also, however, that to do so risks allowing the philosophy of Satanism to be grossly misrepresented. Without wishing to promote a pyramidal framework of administration (bullshit about the stratification of nature will not convince me), if instances existed of dolts going to Denny's in ritual robes, the opening for something much worse was definitely present. Although LaVey often visited grottoes nationwide, it would have been impossible for him, or for that matter any structure or mode of operation consistent with the freedom of Satanic philosophy, to ensure that a grotto was practicing Satanism rather than devil worship or some other equally foolish game.

I say that as if it were an egregious threat—it's not—but had the grotto system continued as it had, misguided grottoes might actually have been the least of the Church's problems. The Satanic Panic was begun on the backs of rumors, dubious psychology, a small handful of truly insane individuals, and the willingness of human beings to despise that which they either fear or do not already comprehend (which in most cases, obviously, is very little). How much worse might it have been for a sociopath to find his way into the position of a Grotto Master, recruit lackies, and organize the slaying of someone? No precaution can rule out the possibility of an organization's member doing something senseless, but when that member is a Grotto Master whose local group has official standing within the Church of Satan, a deluge of problems is bound to result. The growing centrality Jake mentioned of some grottoes around their administrative heads is intrinsically malignant, not just to Satanic philosophy, but also in light of what a clever fruitcake might use a grotto to do.

The question then becomes one of how to counteract it, and the answer quite simply is that there isn't a way. Even now on a physically harmless (but still asinine) scale, certain cult figures within the Church of Satan have attained a position of nigh infallibility, most notably Nemo and his blatant hypocrisy known as the Temple of the Vampire.


 Quote:
Well said. Whether it be $100 or $208, if you are going to pay a "membership" fee, it helps to ask the question:

Other than hawking manufactured plastic cards to be sold at a premium, exactly what the hell is it that you actually do?

Despite my sincere and sustained attempts to solve that riddle, I have been completely unable to discern what its ongoing purpose is. Occasionally I find mention of "current projects" or "phases" of operation, but the truth of these is open to question. Either they are vacant words, in which case the Church is posturing for no reason, or the Church's administration is being honest, in which case not making members privy to it leaves the Church hypocritically alongside secret societies like the Ordo Templi Orientis which it claims to revile. Again, this paltry state of affairs has been realized with the rubbing of shoulders between the Church of Satan and Temple of the Vampire, but I digress.

Past a very finite point, the value of clearing up misconceptions and promoting a philosophy runs out of steam. Satanism doesn't need a PR campaign. Yes, the Satanic Panic occurred, and yes, such a thing could happen again, but I have to think that anyone willing to listen to Peter Gilmore on Satanism (sometimes a feat in itself) would likewise be reasonable enough to doubt from the outset that the tales of fundamentalist Christians are credible, or at least not to give a damn whether Satanists in any form exist or not. Open minds will be guided by the evidence, while closed minds will continue to believe what they want about Satanism regardless of what anyone says.

No organization will dictate to whom I can and cannot speak, bar me from holding opinions extraneous to basic congruence with Satanism, forbid me explicitly or implicitly from questioning the reliability of some aspect of its basic text, or set in stone what I can and cannot think about other organizations or groups, leastwise with a smug tone suggestive of its presumed hegemony on reason. If such a standard ends in an organization's conclusion that I am not a True Satanist™, I can only respond that my freedom of mind and action puts me in a greater position to claim that label than those yoked to the largely arbitrary do's and don'ts of a shallow organization. Satanism has a dogma, but there is no reason to reify it into Dogma™.


Z.
_________________________
Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#37478 - 04/09/10 07:39 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Zophos]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
[quote=Zophos]
 Quote:
If such a standard ends in an organization's conclusion that I am not a True Satanist™, I can only respond that my freedom of mind and action puts me in a greater position to claim that label than those yoked to the largely arbitrary do's and don'ts of a shallow organization. Satanism has a dogma, but there is no reason to reify it into Dogma™.

Z.


Hell, if nothing else, consider yourself in good company. I personally don't know of any of the "old guard" who have any position or standing in Gilmore's incarnation of The Church of Satan. And there are those of us that can tell you that we were made non-persons quicker than in Orwell's 1984. It was pretty clear that moves were being made even before his death in 1997. Mox nix. My loyalty was to Dr. LaVey and HIS vision of The Church of Satan before it became a haven for "Vampyres" and an arm of the Merchant Class. My positions and my degrees were passed to me by HIS hand... only he can tell me to relinquish them, and as we all know, the good Doktor hasn't said anything in a long time.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#37486 - 04/09/10 10:48 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Jake999]
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
 Quote:
Hell, if nothing else, consider yourself in good company.

Thank you, I absolutely do. Worthwhile conversation and debate are consistently reliable mainstays here.


 Quote:
I personally don't know of any of the "old guard" who have any position or standing in Gilmore's incarnation of The Church of Satan.

That isn't surprising. Consider yourselves lucky.


 Quote:
And there are those of us that can tell you that we were made non-persons quicker than in Orwell's 1984. It was pretty clear that moves were being made even before his death in 1997.

Mind saying more?


 Quote:
My loyalty was to Dr. LaVey and HIS vision of The Church of Satan before it became a haven for "Vampyres" and an arm of the Merchant Class.

I'm appalled Jake. Don't you want to be immortal?

People will believe anything. I sometimes wonder if, in the flat certainty some Satanists have that they can't be duped, their chances for buying into rubbish under the auspice of its assertion of rationality become more probable. It's impossible to read the first paragraph of the ToV's website without being reminded of The Secret or a page out of Kevin Trudeau's handbook. How any otherwise rational person could voluntarily commit to that morass of self-help and Scientology nonsense is beyond me.


 Quote:
My positions and my degrees were passed to me by HIS hand... only he can tell me to relinquish them, and as we all know, the good Doktor hasn't said anything in a long time.

Stay the course. Obviously I can't speak in any meaningful way on the quality or contribution of those older members (no insult intended), but your mention of them does prompt me—I feel a tangent coming on—to ponder the mechanism by which degree promotions are decided these days. I would love to know how personal achievement has been successfully quantified to make degree promotion—and it does matter to them, regardless of what the administration or members suggest—worth anything more than an undeserved sense of self-importance.

In an interview, Peter Gilmore said the following: "The fifth degree is—for us, it's a title that means a Satanic master, and that means that not only have I moved the world of Satanism through my writings and speakings, but I've come to a certain level of mastery of the philosophy and implementing it and made contributions that will be lasting." Does he honestly believe that his rank and title are due to anything objectively significant?


Z.
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Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#37494 - 04/10/10 02:54 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Jake999]
Indrieus Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/20/10
Posts: 37
Loc: Antwerp Belgium
Hello everyone,

Why in Belgium have never have problems with or B Grotto,every Grotto Master was choice by DR La Vey ,then you have to pay every year on central grotto,and every Priest of a Grotto have that certificat from DR.La Vey himself,and why have all(grotto Master) the Grotto Masters Handboek,what you me do,and can do,Why make not onbly rituals,also go out and have fun party(s,visite museums lyke the Art Museum in Namen Belgium from Félicien Rops,it was multi culturel,and why take afther the riteal the book,and speak and members me as questions,it was good organisation or B.Grotto,only people with a belgium problem the dutroux case,killing very young girls,and withoud that whe have a very big group,whe not take everybody,and first the have the start Membership from Central s.Fancisco,then the have questionairs,and when why speak afther the rituel every one have be okee for a new member of or grotto,So you take problems out the ritual room,and in the group.
I and my Girl assit(with permision from central S.Francisco,it work very well,and everyone ar good satanists,only the ar member with big bisness,the stop what I can untherstand that a big shop bisnis go overhead when it com out you ar satanists.
Sorry,that is what I want to tell,every mound whe send all what why have to on the ritual night,from fum to art or Rituals lessens etc......Dr.La was very happy with or work in Belgium.
Have a cool and Satanic Wekend,

GreetZ Indireus
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Indrieus,What the me think about Us,Ol Sonuf Babalon....

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#37518 - 04/11/10 05:37 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Indrieus]
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
Indrieus, I recognize that English is not your first language, but I've typed more coherent posts while masturbating. No one is going to respond to a hodgepodge of gibberish like that. If nothing else at all, please make use of basic grammar and run your posts through an English spellcheck.


Z.
_________________________
Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#37639 - 04/15/10 05:23 PM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Zophos]
CanisMajor Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas

 Originally Posted By: Zophos
The growing centrality Jake mentioned of some grottoes around their administrative heads is intrinsically malignant, not just to Satanic philosophy, but also in light of what a clever fruitcake might use a grotto to do.

The question then becomes one of how to counteract it, and the answer quite simply is that there isn't a way. Even now on a physically harmless (but still asinine) scale, certain cult figures within the Church of Satan have attained a position of nigh infallibility, most notably Nemo and his blatant hypocrisy known as the Temple of the Vampire.


Such is the cult of personality - each with their own 'brand'. These "professional" Satanists crack me up. \:\/



 Originally Posted By: Zophos
Past a very finite point, the value of clearing up misconceptions and promoting a philosophy runs out of steam. Satanism doesn't need a PR campaign. Yes, the Satanic Panic occurred, and yes, such a thing could happen again, but I have to think that anyone willing to listen to Peter Gilmore on Satanism (sometimes a feat in itself) would likewise be reasonable enough to doubt from the outset that the tales of fundamentalist Christians are credible, or at least not to give a damn whether Satanists in any form exist or not. Open minds will be guided by the evidence, while closed minds will continue to believe what they want about Satanism regardless of what anyone says.


Promoting "the philosophy" isn't quite what I had in mind. Nor was I pondering prosyletizing the Great Unwashed.

"Responsibility to the responsible!"

If none are responsible,the Grottoes should never exist. However;if there are those who are responsible.....should they be neutered?

Satanic Panic hasn't gone anywhere; any illusion to the contrary is due to the ebb-and-flow of this phenomena. I imagine it will inevitably rear its ugly head when the "reality show" boom begins to wane, coupled with this 2012 bullshit.

Nothing like an impending Apocalypse to get the flock in a frenzy with a good,old-fashioned fire-and-brimstone Devil!

The topic at hand,however,is what these Satanic churches actually do besides collecting tithes and "love gifts".

It is not my intention to besmirch Miss Karla or her church. However,it's not clear to me as to how the FSC differs from the CoS fan site. CoS 2.0? Cashing in? Different idea altogether?

Ask Dr. Aquino what the ToS does and how they function,you'll usually get an answer,however convoluted.
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For every complex problem,there is a solution that is simple,neat,and wrong.
H.L Mencken

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#38496 - 05/13/10 10:05 AM Re: The First Satanic Church [Re: Zophos]
Indrieus Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/20/10
Posts: 37
Loc: Antwerp Belgium
When you lyke to masturbat I can only think poor gay....
I not ask for respond,I give only how it was in Belgium with or/my Grotto.
And 98% of English members understand what I write....,meaby not perfeckt,only I hem from the Year XI A.S.,why have al to do with letters,I have never have a problem with the Office of San Francisco, Dr.La Vey,Diana La Vey,Miss Blanche Barton, and Margie Bauer.
Now it is the age of words, in or day's it was Rituals,visiting Museums,go out,have great Walburgisnight,every 9 day there was a Ritual in Amsterdam,Colleges,and in Belgium every 30 day's.

Gnay Gemeganza trian A Saga A Ohorela


Edited by Indrieus (05/13/10 10:07 AM)
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Indrieus,What the me think about Us,Ol Sonuf Babalon....

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