#37820 - 04/18/10 08:54 PM
Views on Magic
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Lucifer Rising
member
Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 146
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
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I thought to start a thread for personal views of magic. I think it would be quite interesting. I've been lurking around, reading what many of you have to say. I thought it would be nice to have a place to describe views more in depth for better discussion and understanding.
While I will agree with most that it is up to an individual to decide what magic is, I should say that I am wholly convince by my personal knowledge that magic must be completely natural in its process. Such processes occur all the time. People use these processes to their advantage without realizing. While some may be more naturally gifted at using such processes, it is not magic, nor are they a magician, unless they are conscious of their actions and desired result.
I would also like to include that I am uncertain of LaVey's description of magic as either Lesser or Greater. Greater magic, as I understand his definition, is psychologically manipulating the self to cause a desired change, be it release of stress or anger, a change of outlook, extra confidence, etc. If we are to accept that Lesser magic is performed by an individual to manipulate another, we must look at how one is able to achieve this. To be a proper magician, you must be aware of yourself and your surroundings. You must be confident in your skills. You need to make yourself into the best person you can be to perform your magic properly. If I speak correctly, and this truly be the case, then Greater magic must be first performed in some way in order to perform Lesser magic properly.
Also, Anton LeVay also suggest that a mastery of Lesser magic provides for greater mastery of Greater magic. I will not disagree with this statement, however, I hope I have shown that a mastery of Greater magic leads to a mastery of Lesser magic. In fact, if you think about it, you will realize that little to no mastery of lesser magic is truly needed to perform Greater magic, while Lesser magic depends upon Greater magic. Then you are left with a decision, which type of magic is truly greater, the magic that manipulates others to your will, or the magic that gives you the strong will to perform it?
In addition, I think there was one type of magic that has been left out. When one individual performs magic on another individual, that is Lesser magic, but what of magic done to manipulate many people. This I label as High magic. This is the magic performed by politicians, business men, and other influential people. Magic, such as to convince an entire nation to vote for you or your political party, takes a lot of energy and is usually performed by large groups rather than a single individual.
I think that just about sums up what I have to say. Looking forward to seeing what you all have to say.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse
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#38116 - 04/26/10 04:17 PM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: William Wright]
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Lucifer Rising
member
Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 146
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
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Severed, I am glad if what I had to say has helped you in some way.
William, I completely agree with you, but I will make an argument for calling Lesser magic on grand scales "High magic."
It is understandable that you would not have heard of "High magic" before, as it is my own creation. When you perform magic on a mass scale, it takes an extremely large amount of knowledge and other resources. This is the very reason that it usually is done by groups rather than individuals, though individuals are capable. There are a lot of interesting things to say about group dynamics, but I won't go into it here.
I may need to make a clarification to the understanding of High magic. While I'll agree it is Lesser magic, you can look at Lesser magic on a scale from Low to High. Low magic would be Lesser magic that effects one individual, and as your magic effects more people it progresses on a scale up to the highest magic possible, thus "High magic."
I'm sorry if it seems my position has changed somewhat. The first model I proposed was indeed flawed in the way which I initially presented it and so I've attempted to fixed it.
Knowledge and language are meant to evolve just as our understanding. I've found the distinction of High magic to be useful in defining the different types of magic one can do. If people find this useful and wish to use it, then they are free to do so. If they think it's all crap, I don't care. It works for me and they're free to do as they wish as well. Also, to say "High magic" instead of "Lesser magic on a grand scale" is simply more elegant, mysterious, and aesthetically pleasing.
I would like to as well say that I agree that Lesser and Greater magic are equally important, which is why I question the labels of Lesser and Greater.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse
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#38173 - 04/28/10 11:46 PM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Lucifer Rising]
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MatthewJ1
member
Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 529
Loc: Australia
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I am running a touch late on this one.
The below comments are my own, but they have been deeply informed by study.
They are a work in progress. They are my current views on Greater Satanic magic.
Satanic magic is a performance which takes place in a real material world between real flesh and blood human animals. There is no mystical or supernatural element to it in my opinion. The vast majority of Satanic magic can be explained. Those portions, which cannot be explained now, will probably be explained at some time in the future.
Quotes related to Greater Magic
"The change in situations or events in accordance with one's will, which would, using normally accepted methods, be unchangeable." Anton LaVey. TSB P 110
What good is a study of falsehoods, unless everyone believes in falsehoods? Many, of course, DO believe in falsehoods, but still ACT according to natural law. It is upon this premise that Satanic magic is based.” Anton LaVey. TSB. P 109
“Greater Black Magic (GBM) is the causing of change to occur in the subjective universe in accordance with the will. This change in the subjective universe may cause a similar and proportionate change in the objective universe.” Michael Aquino. The 600C
“We are thus the victims of a world-wide GBM epidemic which has manifest itself as political ideologies, artistic æsthetics, advertising, social morality, etc. We cannot honestly say that we “live” in the objective universe, but rather in a crazy-quilt of subjective overlays on the objective universe. The first thing the magician must do is realize this; the second thing he must do is attempt to see and understand the actual objective universe through all the camouflage. The third thing he must do is attempt to change parts of it carefully and precisely through his own magical workings, both LBM and GBM.” Michael Aquino. The 600C
“Satanic ritual is a technique of self – transformative psychodrama.” Peter Gilmore TSS. P 221.
“There is no guarantee that ritual can do anything more than serve as a cathartic experience for the ones performing it.” Peter Gilmore TSS. P 221.
“A theory advanced by Ingo Swann in Natural ESP suggests that there may be a gateway through the most primitive part of the brain by which thoughts and imagery might in some way “broadcast” to other minds when fuelled by extreme emotional experiences. We Satanists see this as a possible means for Greater Magic to impact the world outside of the ritual chamber.” Peter Gilmore. TSS P.222.
Greater Magic Notes
The greater magical ritual does have a cathartic effect. This is one of its purposes - to rid the magician of that which cannot be dispelled or driven from the psyche or the body by normally accepted means.
Greater magic is also a self – transformational process. Its purpose is to change the magician’s subjective viewpoint on the self as a means of focusing and magnifying the will and clarifying, strengthening or changing consciousness.
Greater magic is also a self – transformational process. Its purpose is to change the magician’s subjective viewpoint on the objective qualities of the world, or a particular portion of the world, and hence the meaning of states of affairs and the role or position of involved actors or stakeholders.
Satanism is objective subjectivity, as Dr. LaVey stated, and this applies to Satanic magic as well.
A further result of a successful greater magic ritual is the production of a subjectively generated blueprint of a particular “is-to-be,” which the black magician successfully imposes on a certain portion of the objective universe, thereby changing the selected portion of the objective universe, targeted by the magician, in accordance with the blueprint.
The forging and elaboration of the blueprint can take place once an intellectual decompression has taken place and once the collection of objects and the words to be spoken in the designated space have been invested with an absolute value as “tools” and “meaningful truth” in the subjective universe.
The blueprint is forged and elaborated by emotionally fuelled and powerfully articulated need or desire.
A question naturally arises: how can the magician impose a subjectively generated blueprint on a portion of the objective world?
There are two models which I look at this aspect of Greater Magic through.
Model One – Transmission via the Ritual
I conduct the ritual successfully – my wish is transmitted (as a form of message) to the person/s it is addressed to – the person/s who receives the message thinks and/or acts in accordance with it.
Again, I complete a ritual and as a result of the ritual my target is affected. Everything takes place (message formation and transmission) within the ritual and it is an act of unconventional communication between a sender and a receiver.
Model One - Some Qualifications
1. I am an Atheist, therefore no supernatural being or intelligence will assist me in making the ritual work.
2. I have no conclusive proof confirming that supernormal forms, such as telepathy, or other forms of inter-subjective unconscious or subconscious communication, are involved in the ritual process, though I cannot strictly confirm that supernormal forms aren’t involved.
I therefore agree with the Satanic notion that one should look at the effects of this model of Greater Magic pragmatically. One should practice it and take a careful note of whether it works or not.
Model Two – The Will to Power
The premise of this approach is the belief that human society is a bloody battlefield where subjects are fighting to impose subjectively generated meanings, on a barely seen objective, already thoroughly drenched in prior meaning.
Who has the power to appropriate the object and define and re-define? Who benefits from the transformation of interpretation into knowledge and its imposition onto the object? How does stratification function here? Some can define large areas of the “objective” and others less?
LaVey’s definition of the premise of Satanic magic looms here: the natural law of might is right, or of dog eat dog has been transformed into the endless war to define and exclude within a billion contexts. Meanwhile, the vast majority continue to somehow believe in the falsehood of the egalitarian and democratic.
If human beings are political animals and hence will, in most cases, seek to build parties, alliances and factions with the like minded than the types of meanings generated and imposed will be a reflection of the type of people and herds which generate them.
Satanic magic, in this sense, is the attempt by a single magician to impose a blueprint on the objective - to carefully change portions of the objective.
Some Final Comments
Greater Magical ritual is not just confined to a specific Satanic ritual chamber and the tools which LaVey mentioned in TSB. Rather ritual is taking place in all manner of spaces and using tools and symbols of all sorts.
I am beginning to see a strong link between the work of Nietzsche, Freud, Foucault, Deleuze, Szasz and Dr. LaVey and Dr. Aquino. There is still a lot of work to be done here, before I can provide a comprehensive and clear statement on this aspect of GM, but getting there.
I’m going to have to provide something on Lesser Magic some other time. This thing is just too long and involved. Very tiring…
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#38460 - 05/12/10 06:44 AM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: MatthewJ1]
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Mikey58
stranger
Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 18
Loc: England
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Magic rituals are the means to an end, and any maifestations or things seen or heard may be simply projections of the mind; controlled hallucinations if you will for want of another expression. Whether entities summoned, seen or heard have an independent existence outside of the mind is debatable, maybe the mind creates them and projects them.
As Crowley said, whether these things have an independent existence matters not.
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#38492 - 05/13/10 03:32 AM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Mikey58]
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MatthewJ1
member
Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 529
Loc: Australia
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“Magic rituals are the means to an end, and any maifestations or things seen or heard may be simply projections of the mind; controlled hallucinations if you will for want of another expression. Whether entities summoned, seen or heard have an independent existence outside of the mind is debatable, maybe the mind creates them and projects them.
As Crowley said, whether these things have an independent existence matters not.”
Thanks for your comments. The below quote may interest you.
“I don’t feel that raising the devil in an anthropomorphic sense is quite as feasible as theologians or metaphysicians would like to think. I have felt His presence but only as an exteriorized extension of my own potential, as an alter-ego or evolved concept that I have been able to exteriorize. With a full awareness, I can communicate with this semblance, this creature, this demon, this personification that I see in the eyes of the symbol of Satan—the goat of Mendes-—as I commune with it before the altar. None of these is anything more than a mirror image of that potential I perceive in myself.”
“I have this awareness that the objectification is in accord with my own ego. I’m not deluding myself that I’m calling something that is disassociated or exteriorized from myself the godhead. This Force is not a controlling factor that I have no control over. The Satanic principle is that man wilfully controls his destiny; if he doesn’t, some other man—-a lot smarter than he is—-will. Satan is, therefore, an extension of one’s psyche or volitional essence, so that that extension can sometimes converse and give directives through the self in a way that thinking of the self as a single unit cannot. In this way it does help to depict in an externalized way the Devil per se. The purpose is to have something of an idolatrous, objective nature to commune with. However, man has connection, contact, control. This notion of an exteriorized God-Satan is not new.”
Anton LaVey, Popular Witchcraft, Jack Fritscher (1973)
This quote of the Doktor's is well worth studying. The level of perception is extraordinary.
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#38497 - 05/13/10 10:37 AM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: MatthewJ1]
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Mikey58
stranger
Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 18
Loc: England
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Thank you, i agree. The external and objective placement is the way communication is made in magic. The forces worked with are personalised externally and made objective as you say.
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#38697 - 05/20/10 01:41 PM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: William Wright]
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Jake999
senior member
Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2174
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Ok. Next time you pull take a good crap to get relief, you should worship that power of magic that made it so!! Yes, the power of magic that got you what you want! OH! And the awesome power of, yes... feel the magic... opening the door of the refrigerator for a Coke to make your thirst MAGICALLY go away.
Seems to me you might have done too much "wacky tabaccky" or drunk from the Setian wells a bit too much.
As for my views on magic ...you might have read it in the Book of Belial in The Satanic Bible... simply "The change in situations or events in accordance with one's will, which would, using normally accepted methods, be unchangable."
"Further: "Magic falls into two categories, ritual or ceremonial, and non-ritual or manipulative. Ritual magic consists of the performance of a formal ceremony, taking place, at least in part, within the confines of an area set aside for such purposes and at a specific time. Its main function is to isolate the otherwise dissipated adrenal and other emotionally induced energy, and convert it into a dynamically transmittable force. It is purely an emotional, rather than intellectual, act.
Any and all intellectual activity must take place before the ceremony, not during it. This type of magic is sometimes known as "GREATER MAGIC".
Non-ritual or manipulative magic, sometimes called "LESSER MAGIC", consists of the wile and guile obtained through various devices and contrived situations, which when utilized, can create "change, in accordance with one's will". In olden times this would be called "fascination", "glamour", or the "evil eye". "
So, in your case, I suppose that you are considering the master manipulation of smiling at someone to elicit a smile in return to be "magic," yet rejecting the logical and normal assumption that given a positive stimulus (a smile), a similar and expected response should be expected. Well... a couple of minutes of applied psychological and attitudinal studies during the course of human development show that when you smile at someone, your're likely to receive a smile in return might have been something you missed. Or someone smiling at you is so abnormal to your existence that I'm afraid it would be more telling of your personality than your magical expertise.
Granted, if you "magically" started up a business that just out of the blue netted you a cool million, it would be pretty rare indeed. And I would say that it would definitely fall under the "The change in situations or events in accordance with one's will, which would, using normally accepted methods, be unchangable," parameter. Go for it if you can. Junk bonds worked, there were a some of IPOs that went crazy, being nothing but ideas floated in the ethers that caught on, and hell... who can deny hoola hoops, and Shamwow? But having been in business and having participated in startups that have been successful, I can tell you that normal means, i.e., business acumen and established business models and applications can and do routinely create the desired result, Dusty Springfield said it best in her song "Wishing and Hoping." Action is the magic in such situations, based on sound knowledge and the application of proper business protocols.
If you just said, "I'm going to make a million selling used condoms door to door" and you did it... well, maybe then you've had some magical assistance.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.
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