#38728 - 05/22/10 02:33 AM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: William Wright]
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Lucifer Rising
pledge
Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 89
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
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As I stated earlier, when you have a purpose to your actions and they have been carefully chosen to cause a specific result, you are doing magic.
Does it matter if we understand it or not? When we understood how rain was made we didn't rename it. So what of techniques and knowledge that would normally be considered magical? Just because we can explain the consequences of your actions and why it works with behavioral psychology, neuro-linguistic programming, physics, etc. doesn't make it your actions less magical. If you had a thoughtful intent to change the environment to your purposes, then you are doing magic. If anything, our new found ability to explain so much of it has only made magic easier to use and understand.
Magic is an umbrella term for the things we can do to improve our lives in the practical world. It is interdisciplinary, as it calls upon many different fields of knowledge. To say that every human action is magic is over-simplifying. Many things we do are without conscious purpose, a free choice, or knowledge of consequences. Actions like getting a drink or taking a shit are things you do not choose to do. Your body gets thirsty and you are forced to drink something or perish... and I'm not even going into what could happen if you don't empty your bowels. Since these are not thoughtful actions that can be chosen, but bodily maintenance that must be done for basic survival, it is not magic.
By acknowledging this distinction, we are better able to communicate with one another of the methods we use to get through everyday life, the ways we improve ourselves, the ways we improve our status, and with a language to the untrained ear is mysterious and is aesthetically pleasing to most ears.
Besides, magic is a huge part of our history, especially in the sense that Satanism is part of the Western Esoteric Tradition. Can't we allow how we use these ideas to evolve, rather than tossing them away completely?
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse
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#38729 - 05/22/10 09:52 AM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Lucifer Rising]
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William Wright
member
Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 162
Loc: Nashville
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LR, your post was well explained and made a lot of sense. I had already begun to reexamine my thoughts regarding magic after the posts of Dimitri and my dear colleague Jake, and yours pretty much cemented the deal. My intent was not to stir up trouble; god knows I’ve got enough trouble in my life already. I merely wanted to explain magic as I had come to understand it. That said, am I glad I made those posts? Absolutely. If I hadn’t, then I wouldn’t have learned to look at magic differently. Learning is an often humbling experience, and damned if I’m gonna let arrogance get in the way of that.
I heard somewhere that Crowley once said that a sneeze was magic. It resonated with me because it seemed to correspond to my idea that everything we do to benefit ourselves, even in the most mundane of ways, is magic. However, I now see that if everything is magic then nothing is magic, because magic has nothing to distinguish itself from. I’m not sure yet how this new outlook will affect me as I go about my daily activities, but I look forward to finding out. I suspect it will be magical.
_________________________
Everyone has something to teach, and everyone has something to learn.
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#38733 - 05/22/10 02:40 PM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: William Wright]
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Lucifer Rising
pledge
Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 89
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
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You definitely make a good point, William, as do the others. When I first read Crowley and understood that for him magic is everything, I quickly disagreed. That is like saying everyone is special. If everyone is special, then special becomes mundane and looses all purpose.
I do not find it the least bit odd that many would not agree with the use of magic, or rather the use of the terminology. It depends on how one associates magic in the mind. If you associate magic with spiritualism, theism, and delusion, then you probably will not have a good opinion of it when combined with an atheistic perspective. If you connect magic with the unknown, unknowable, or imaginary, as a skeptic it is not going to appeal to you and seem silly. However, I do not associate magic with these concepts except to acknowledge others do. I associate magic as far more related to that of stage magic than spiritual or theistic magic, using psychological manipulation to effect people in such a way that they are enchanted by your actions.
We still label stage magic as magic, even when we know exactly how it is performed. We may want to give some distinction and say that isn't "real magic" because of its apparent lack of supernatural forces with which magic is normally associated, yet it is the form of magic that actually works in the real world and we still label it as such.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse
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#38744 - 05/22/10 11:58 PM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Lucifer Rising]
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The Zebu
active member
Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 612
Loc: Orlando, FL
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Interesting... Concerning the views of Crowley, I recently came across this issue in another forum.
That is like saying everyone is special. If everyone is special, then special becomes mundane and looses all purpose.
Agreed- that is, if we accept the definition of Magic as being something isolate and subjective. For many occultists, and Satanists, "magic" refers specifically to a mode of thinking or imagination; a certain "frame of mind" in which the Will is projected. Magic is a current of power; it requires occult skill to tap into it.
For Crowley, however, "Magick" was the very metaphysical fabric of the universe, not something distinct from the material world. Everything is magick because everything is inherently divine-- sort of like Pantheism. Granted, he recognized that some expressions of Magick (theurgy, evocation, sex magick) were more potent than others (such as sneezing).
At least, this is how I have interpreted his writings. However, I can't say I buy this definition, considering that my metaphysical views differ vastly from that of To Mega Therion.
Edited by The Zebu (05/22/10 11:58 PM)
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#38791 - 05/25/10 03:22 PM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Lucifer Rising]
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Valor
pledge
Registered: 01/27/10
Posts: 53
Loc: Coast of New England
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Also, Anton LeVay also suggest that a mastery of Lesser magic provides for greater mastery of Greater magic. I will not disagree with this statement, however, I hope I have shown that a mastery of Greater magic leads to a mastery of Lesser magic. In fact, if you think about it, you will realize that little to no mastery of lesser magic is truly needed to perform Greater magic, while Lesser magic depends upon Greater magic. Then you are left with a decision, which type of magic is truly greater, the magic that manipulates others to your will, or the magic that gives you the strong will to perform it?
I don't know anyone who uses GBM Workings on a daily or even a weekly basis. However i can say this for LBM. I'll use LBM on a daily basis if i cannot find normal means to remedy a situation.
GBM is useful, yes. But not needed...LBM is a must for the LHP Magician.
Edited by Valor (05/25/10 03:27 PM)
_________________________
~there are none so blind as those who will not listen~
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#38917 - 05/30/10 08:08 AM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Valor]
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Mindmaster
stranger
Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 22
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I don't know anyone who uses GBM Workings on a daily or even a weekly basis. However i can say this for LBM. I'll use LBM on a daily basis if i cannot find normal means to remedy a situation.
GBM is useful, yes. But not needed...LBM is a must for the LHP Magician.
Some of this might make a point, and some might be rambling. :P Don't argue with me about psychodrama vs magic has you will be wasting time here. Magic is magic to me and not mental masturbation (not particularly directed at Valor! :P)
LBM/GBM is an imaginary division. In fact, "Black Magic" is as well... We don't exist as disassociated parts, and few people do magic without some benefit directly conferred to themselves even if that benefit is recognition. Not to rail Uncle Anton, but his view of duality is weak and this is one place where he basically got it all wrong. (I admit he borrowed a lot of this from the architecture of the systems from which he derived his own.) One can be individualistic by removing limits from ones life, but can still have a realization of their connection in the primordial cosmic soup. Magic is freeing yourself from all the crap that becomes an obstacle to your will and allows you to fully manifest your being. Anything that isn't a process of doing this isn't magic since no will is involved.
I would go so far as to say that these days the rituals in TSB are very "old" tech inversions of the douche-baggery used by Crowley and company. Modern ritual techniques have jettisoned most of this pomp and got down to the tacks. I don't use any of these anymore because they're just useless crap taking far too much time for the same result. Yes, you cannot do anything GBM on a near daily basis if you use the material in TSB. Nor, would I think you would want to. Kind of odd to be spanking your monkey on a daily basis for a lust ritual when I know of at least seven other more effective techniques. But, if you like jacking off lots.. go for it.
I perhaps find it interesting more that there can even be a GBM vs LBM magic debate. Traditionally, there is high magic and sorcery... Satanists just don't do "high magic" since they don't believe in Holy Guardian Angels, etc. So basically you have Satanic Witch style LBM and stuff that takes longer than the time that it takes to put clothing on is GBM. Technically anything a Satanist would be doing would be sorcery... by common definition... The LBM/GBM debate is moot all of it falls in a very narrow scope.
Personally, I've changed my models as I see fit and have no problem using one vs another as it suits me. This has lead me to taking out the trash several times and undoubtedly I will do it again. I regularly pit systems against one another in a winner takes all battle. You have to do this or you are susceptible be becoming deceived by the dogma of your chosen system. Once you figure out the mechanics you really don't see the divisions of conscious/unconscious/the collective. In fact, if you have only used one 'system' you should certainly stop doing it and learn another immediately. You will learn more about both by the contrasts between them. Even us people on the LHP are not immune to dogma, just vulnerable to the worse type: The Legend in Ones Own Mind Syndrome. Feel free to step back and laugh at yourself and the silly crap you have tried to do, and look at ritual as play not work. If it's not fun... fuck it... life is too short!
- Mind
Edited by Mindmaster (05/30/10 08:10 AM)
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#39103 - 06/06/10 09:34 AM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Mindmaster]
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William Wright
member
Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 162
Loc: Nashville
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I’ve been giving magic a considerable amount of thought lately, and I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m just not a big fan of the word. Too vague and esoteric, too “spiritual” sounding. Furthermore, I have real-world words that suit my needs just fine. If I want to do something, I set a goal and plan my attack, take action and accomplish it. That’s how I would explain it to a non-Satanist. Why must I substitute that with the word magic?
Some have argued that magic is extraordinary, as opposed to the ordinary actions ordinary people take to accomplish ordinary things. But then, what’s extraordinary? I would argue that whatever one wants to accomplish in life, it all comes down to two things: brains and effort. That’s how Bill Gates founded Microsoft and Sam Walton created Wal-Mart. That’s how Barack Obama became president of the United States. There’s nothing “magical” about it. They just happened to want it more than the next guy, so they went out and made it happen.
So I think I’ll save the word magic for those times I’m referring to a David Copperfield performance. As for what I do in life, I prefer to use words that make sense to me when describing how I get things done. I came, I saw, I conquered.
_________________________
Everyone has something to teach, and everyone has something to learn.
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#39109 - 06/06/10 02:40 PM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: William Wright]
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Lucifer Rising
pledge
Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 89
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
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If magic is defined as an extraordinary power or influence, then many of the things I do is magic. Merriam Webster actually includes "seemingly from a supernatural source" but I think this implies that it can be perceived to be from a supernatural force though does not necessitate that one must believe that it does. Of course the occultists that came before us certainly would only understand how the things they did worked through some supernatural force when he knew of no natural way it could be. I know of no other word that expresses the sort of "extraordinary power and influence" of these individuals, or myself, or anyone else.
I am admittedly quite biased on the subject. The attraction in my eyes is aesthetic in part. You can speak in plain, ordinary words and be properly understood, if you can get somebody to listen. However, I think it is sometimes more important to speak beautifully, to subvert the rational mind and appeal to the emotional mind. There is also a sort of empowerment to magic, that you know and can do something rare and special, something most people cannot. I also view magic as part of self deification. What kind of god cannot use his or her magical powers to influence the environment to their will? I also attach to it an attitude of how to behave and view your actions. You have the powers of a god at your command; you are a god. You must be mindful of your environment, what tactics best to use, the responsibilities you must face due to the consequences of your actions, etc.
If there is a word that can express all this, one that is not loaded with supernatural baggage from the past, then do share. I would certainly like to know of such a word. Until then I shall continue using the mysterious language of our esoteric ancestry.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse
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#39163 - 06/07/10 04:57 PM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: William Wright]
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Lucifer Rising
pledge
Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 89
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
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William,
Will simply does not resonate with me, nor properly describes what I do the same way as magic. Of course my will is important in what I do, but it is only an element needed to do magic. Will only describes my desires. What of my knowledge? What of my forethought and planning? What about the tactics that I use, and the processes that allow my plans to work? What do you call the skillful utilization of all these to have your will be done? What subject is all this held under?
As anyone else, you are free to your own thoughts and preferences. However, I personally think you should think on it further. It took me a rather long time to even decide to use the word, because of very similar arguments you and others have posted.
In most cases, you are right. Plain language is sufficient. I have very few people roll their eyes at me, because I tend not discuss it with people I know would only scoff, and the majority of my occult acquaintances I speak with will agree that what I do can properly be considered magic, and we talk of it as such. I would not explain something to a co-worker in magical tongue because it would not be appropriate to do so. However, if you want to give somebody that sense of wonder you use mysterious and beautiful speech. "Magic" denotes a respect for what you are speaking about, and a secrecy between those with a common knowledge. So what is useful for me may not be useful for you, but I still think magic can be an important part of a person's vocabulary.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse
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#39259 - 06/12/10 02:03 AM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: William Wright]
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paolo sette
pledge
Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 82
Loc: IL, USA
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It all centers on the practioners purview of what he/she wants to accomplish with the act. A magician who is just concerned with going through the process of a spell-ritual for sake of affiliation to an organization won't accomplish much outside of performing the motions of Black Magic. Try to stay away from the superficiality of performing Magic for Magic is vastly deeper than that. Direct your energies within, and employ varied techniques of the Mind to bring about the intuited reason of your Black Magic. (To have something benefit you!)LaVey was on this path when he put forth the idea that it is just psychodrama. I didn't know Anton, and I'm not going to justify either for or against this statement; but, the Doktor was onto something. Rituals-Ceremonies shouldn't be performed for superficiality (psychodrama) purposes, but should be taken to a higher-level (or lower-level, you decide) of realization which enhances the desired effect.
If I go a couple steps further, one has to look at the Magician's spirit that he/she brings. The whole act revolves around this one idea. Bring wonderment, unfathomabilities, and mysticism to the ritual or ceremony, and the Magic will go beyond discursive understanding. Therefore, leaving the people involved with a heightened sense, and like actually accomplishing something. Keep in Mind the five senses, and bring the participants accessories to aid in the attainment of that higher-level of realization. The senses are taste, touch, sight, hearing, and thinking. The Magician just has to delve into the recesses of the Mind, and pull together what he/she wants to effect and affect utilizing the supports Mindfully. 
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
anuttara-samyak-sambodhi
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