#41882 - 08/13/10 03:21 AM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Diavolo]
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Lucifer Rising
member
Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 146
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
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Matt, that is a great example. Hitler did amazing things in the art of manipulation. Here are a few thoughts I figured I would just throw out there.
To manipulate a large amount of people you have to physically change the environment, you pay close attention to your presence in front of audiences, you put propaganda in place. The human mind doesn't really differentiate between hearing something from 3 different source, or hearing it from the same source 3 times. The mind will construct a belief of how popular something is based on how often they see or hear it. Also, you subvert their conscious minds and connect to people on an emotional level, go straight for the subconscious, entertain them, entice them, tell them all the things they desperately want to hear, then you can convince them of just about anything. Then there is his message of a common enemy. Nothing brings people together more than having a scapegoat to blame for everything.
As far as the Objective and Subjective Universes are concerned, that which I might disagree with many of you is the nature of SU and OU/NU. I view the SU as a part of the OU, and the OU as something truly objective; it is what it is no matter our perceptions of it may be. For me, it seems quite easy to see how the SU can impose itself on the OU. My perception may contribute to why I see no need for unexplained forces. Especially when it seems to me much of it has been explained already at least in part. You experience life, you have a thought, you take an action, and your SU has changed the OU.
The magic is understanding how to change the OU to create a change in the SU of others in a directed way. I think there is probably little disagreement here. This is what I would like to focus on. We all get the general idea of SU and OU, though we might disagree in details. Yet, these details don't really seem to effect our views of magic in any significant ways, at least it doesn't seem to in my perspective. So I would hope to avoid bickering about petty details that do not seem relevant to the matter at hand. Let us save it for another thread.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse
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#41900 - 08/13/10 09:52 PM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Lucifer Rising]
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Duende
pledge
Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
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Hey all,
Here are some ideas I thought of as I was feeding my kittens.
The OU itself is the blind creation/ point of agreement of all the SU out there. If there were no SU, there would be no OU. How can you know the OU exists without your personal perspective informing you of it? In no way do I deny the reality of the OU. Just because it is a creation of the SU does not diminish it's significance. If there were no SU, the OU would not be. If the OU is the meeting point or agreed upon reality of all SU, then the question arises, what was the first SU? This first SU can be understood as the Prince of Darkness.
If the OU is the area where all SU overlap, and is an active creation of all SU, then those who seek to merge with it(RHP'ers)are simply barking up the wrong tree.
Greater Magic is the awareness that you are a SU and then carefully creating a new SU which reflects what you desire to manifest. This new SU can be seen as your self ahead of self. If your Ritual is successful, you will Become the SU you created and your desire will be realized within and to a degree in the OU and the SU of others. If you are wise, you will not bask in the glory of victory for too long, and create a new SU as you seek future victory, and because there is no rest for the wicked.
What do you think?
Duende
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#41914 - 08/14/10 01:57 AM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Duende]
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paolo sette
Temp Banned
member
Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 237
Loc: IL, USA
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Kwatz!
Pshaw!!
The discussion of the Universe whether subjective or objective intrigues me with broaching on the prodigious topic of Magic, and giving ample examples with follow through attempting to hypostatize. Let me reassert that all sides are valid until the locus is fully met, and proffers by speculation and cognoscenti. Let me propose a different mode of epistemology which is common place with Indologists. There is a Sanskrit word termed maya whence I take refuge in with describing the phenomenal Universe and World of particulars we live in that when everything is envisaged: everything is evanescent, impermanent, ephemeral, and changing. Minus the Absolute Truth which for sake of this thread is Set-Satan as the appellations with the ideational facts are beyond human conceptualization or categorization. The One is outside the limitations of words, and effects the unattainable by making it attainable which defies logic altogether through superimposition of thought.
Here is something to think about in pithy sentences that border on aphorisms: The aforementioned posts can be distinguished in three groups. 1) Realists-those who maintain the reality of everything. 2) Idealists-those who maintain the reality of thought only. 3) Nihilists (with the prior post as well as myself)-those who maintain that everything is Void (unreal). (Go further.) The type of thinking as portrayed can be met head-on with thinking still further along the same lines of ratiocintation. Replying to the philosophic pluralist objections (meaning all who responded)that if we acquiesce to various fiats or doctrines: 1) The ordinary means of correct knowledge and perception become invalid because the prescence of manifoldness is equipoise in relation to the objects represented, if we accept the real as real. For example, a definitive jar is a definitive jar, or is it not? To follow this thinking: 2) All the texts with injunctions and prohibitions will lose their purport if the distinction on which their validity depends does not really exist or is a manifestation of something different. To follow this thinking: 3) The entire body of doctrines (this encompasses the Temple of Set-Church of Satan, also) which refer to the explainable by means of locution will collapse, if the distinction of teacher and pupil on which it depends is fallicious. This statement challenges the way we've been learning all our lives...
Accept nothing prima facie. Challenge your thinking about things. Challenge them yet again and again. This was ment to throw a wrench into your mentation with posing conundrums.
Ciao...
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu
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#41921 - 08/14/10 06:19 AM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Dan_Dread]
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Duende
pledge
Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
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The goal of sculpting your subjective universe to your Will is something I work towards every day. In that I am sympathetic to your ideas. But I think reality is what it is, and whether or not our particular species of animal are here to experience it doesn't make too much difference. I think the idea that our combined experience of the world somehow creates it to be an extraordinary claim for which extraordinary evidence would be required, before one should give it any serious consideration.
I agree that reality is what it is. But our ability to perceive that reality, to be aware of it is via our consciousness of it.
My ideas of the OU being a creation of the mind is based on my personal experience with Greater Magic.
For many years, I have considered many explanations as to how Greater Magic works and thus far, the concept of the OU as the creation of a limitless number of SU seems to fit best.
These thoughts I am entertaining here are only for consideration as an approach to Greater Magic. If anyone wants to take them further, beyond the Ritual Chamber, that's up to them. 
Again, if the OU were the creation of the SU, this does not make it any less real. The OU is not a single thing but a mass of overlapping SU. This makes any idea of becoming one with the OU quite impossible and mucho loco. 
Although this would be an immaterial approach to reality, it is no way solipsism, which denies the existence of the OU or of other SU!
Besides explaining how Greater Magic works, it also has implications in regards to what the self is as well as the idea of Satan. Through Greater Magic, we can become aware of ourselves as an ego that is not just a self image or personality but a SU of limitless potential. Personal immortality is the birth right of every conscious being within such a cosmology since the OU never defined the SU(you) completely to begin with.
Those who are not self aware, who are not Satanists, unconsciously (blindly) participate in the creation and definition of the OU. If you are not willfully shaping your SU, then you can rest assured someone else is and you are mostly a product of the SU of others. This why the sheep are called sheep.
If Satan was the first SU, there automatically had to be an OU present. Satan is not God cloaked in a black robe with red horns and cloven hoofs  . In order to become Satan he would have had to differentiate himself from everything else. In order to achieve identity, what became Satan created another SU that was not identical to him.
In other words, Satan gained existence through an act of Greater Magic. Satan is the archetype of the cosmic rebel.
Each time we engage in Greater Magic, we are emulating Satan's action of achieving intellectual independence from the Universe. This is what Greater Magic does for us if we become sensitive to it. The changes in the OU are byproducts of Greater Magic not the goal of GM itself.
This is just speculation but it is speculation based on based on my experience with GM and the experiences of others with GM. Some may find their experiences with GM will vary. I find it useful to engage in such thinking because in examining these concepts, I hope to uncover better models of applicable to GM which allow me to apply it more efficiently in my life. As Satanists, I think it is fair to say that as Satanists, we resonate and pridefully identify with the archetype of Satan. We may find that by investigating what Satan represents to us further, the more we understand Satan, the more we understand ourselves.
Duende
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#41937 - 08/14/10 02:31 PM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Dan_Dread]
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Lucifer Rising
member
Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 146
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
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Well I was trying to avoid it, but here I go anyway.
I've been reading the latest responses. I've found a few statements that caused me think of possibly better ways to visualize this to examine it more closely. The idea that the Objective is the result of the agreement between separate Subjective Universes seems at first a silly idea. After some thought, however, I think I've found ways of looking at the problem to better understand the other position. Hopefully this may illuminate my position as well.
If the Objective Universe manifests itself from the Subjective Universes, what causes the SUs to agree. Say there is a group of people in a room, all of the people agree that in the room is a table. They can all describe the table, and express that they all see what appears to be the same table. What keeps some of the people from seeing a chair instead, or perhaps they don't even see the room, but a field with an apple tree? Why should they agree if there is nothing tangible to agree upon? This view has many other problems as well. If the OU is the result of the SU, then you have no reason to consider what you call objective as objective. The natural world would be subjective, and there would be no objective point to agree upon. We can all be riding around on flying unicorns if we convinced enough people to agree that they exist. By this logic, God should exist as there are plenty of Subjective Universes in agreement pertaining to his existence. The convergence of SUs does have its place in the discussion, however, but I will get back to that later.
If people are to be able to make mistake and to be able to learn, if objects do not come into existence and fairy tales are not to become real simply by agreement, we must inhabit a universe that cannot be brought into existence by thought alone. People or no people, life or no life, with or without any SUs, the objective universe would still exist.
There is another side to the coin. As a human being, I can only speak of all this subjectively. From a psychological stand point, what a person believes to be true, effectively is true for that person. What everyone accepts as truth effectively is truth until there is a change in perceptions and thinking. This is the subjective agreement on the perception of the Objective Universe, but is not the OU itself.
Now here is the kicker, the SU is part of the OU. Deny it all you wish. Do you breathe without air, drink without water, think without a brain, or touch what isn't there? Of course not. The reliable evidence that we have concerning the human mind is that it functions the same way as, and is determined by, how the brain works. The mind is the product of objective computation, in an objective system of the body, with objective processes and objective input, in an objective universe. Each person is restricted by their neurophysiology, their brain chemistry, and what sensory data they come in contact with and are able to process. We grow and become reflections of our environments, our cultural upbringing, our experiences.
We share our subjective ideas with the use of associated symbols through objective mediums: pressure waves through air, ink on paper, electronic characters on a screen, etc. If the person has a similar enough experience, is part of the same cultural heritage you reflect, or is at very least has made some association to it (perhaps by learning the language or through exposure), then the message can be understood and cause action to occur in their brains that affects the mind.
There are many, many different ways, different processes, in which the SU and OU interact and change one another. This is where I see the domain of magic, or at least from where much of my magic has developed. You can almost break magic down into two parts. You need to understand the SU, the human mind, and how the OU can change it, and you have to understand how the SU can change the OU. Using the mechanisms that control these processes for your own advantage though an understanding of them is what I consider magic.
At least this is my subjective perspective.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse
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#41949 - 08/14/10 06:16 PM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Duende]
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Dan_Dread
senior member
Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 2010
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
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If the SU is an aspect of the OU, then are you asserting that GM is merely a psychological effect that does not extend beyond the mind of the individual Satanist?
I suppose you had to say something that made sense eventually.
YES.
Magic is self transformative psychodrama. Kicking the greater subconscious mind into action though catharsis. The conscious mind is a very small part of who we are, and does not exert nearly as much control as some seem to think. The conscious mind is largely an observer, rather than an actor. The purpose of GM is to affect change in ways that are generally 'off limits' to the conscious mind.
It is through these changes in ones own perceptions and actions that the objective universe is effected and changed.
_________________________
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#41965 - 08/15/10 10:57 PM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Duende]
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Lucifer Rising
member
Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 146
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
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If you apply the idea that subjective universes create everything to your day to day affairs or to science than yes, to some it may appear as nonsense. Within thie the ritual chamber however, you may find that scientifically irrelevant ideas may yield some OU results that warrant further investigation.
What scientifically irrelevant ideas exactly? It might be insightful to our perceptions of your views.
Can the application of GM result in a strengthening of our sense of self which makes the SU appear to dwarf the OU? Yes.
Well you're screwing around with your own psyche, so of course you can make it appear as such. Whether it is true, or even beneficial, are questions that should be asked.
What causes the SU to agree?
One thing I have noticed over the years is that the OU results of my successful GM operations manifest through the actions of other people, thus implying a link between all SU. There appears to be a link between all SU . Through GM, the SU of the Satanist seems to be able to violate the "laws" of the OU.
You can make yourself perceive anything with GM, which is why you should be careful with it. If you do some sort of cursing ritual on somebody, and you convince yourself you've done something real to them by doing nothing but a ritual alone in a room, then for anything bad that happens to that person after that you're going to take credit. It is the same with any other sort of ritual. It doesn't make you a powerful magician, it makes you wishful and probably delusional. I will agree that SUs are connected, but they are connected by material means by the many ways we communicate to one another.
If the SU is an aspect of the OU, then are you asserting that GM is merely a psychological effect that does not extend beyond the mind of the individual Satanist?
I suppose this is mostly right, but you're missing a huge aspect of it. The GM ritual will only effect you psychologically, but the psychological effects will change your behavior. This brings what you've done in the GM ritual to the realm of the OU and LM. You use GM to change yourself, change your behavior, with the goal of enhancing your LM abilities.
I want to know how GM works. I want to know why. I want to know how the whole contraption is put together. I am not certain if I will truly know for sure, but I derive great satisfaction and many other benefits from the quest itself.
If you want to understand how GM works, I suggest a psychology class. There are psychology lectures online, free to the public. It's a good start.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse
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#41971 - 08/16/10 12:31 PM
Re: Views on Magic
[Re: Dan_Dread]
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Duende
pledge
Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
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If the SU is an aspect of the OU, then are you asserting that GM is merely a psychological effect that does not extend beyond the mind of the individual Satanist?
I suppose you had to say something that made sense eventually. YES. Magic is self transformative psychodrama. Kicking the greater subconscious mind into action though catharsis. The conscious mind is a very small part of who we are, and does not exert nearly as much control as some seem to think. The conscious mind is largely an observer, rather than an actor. The purpose of GM is to affect change in ways that are generally 'off limits' to the conscious mind. It is through these changes in ones own perceptions and actions that the objective universe is effected and changed.
Dan Dread,
Your view of GM as mere psychodrama is very common among those who have not tried it, are unsuccessful at it, or are simply afraid of it. It is quite common for people like you, to feel insecure when their beliefs are challenged and then lash out to defend their soft and lazy perspectives. Examining complex ideas such as Greater Magic and the operation of the human psyche demands that you get up and away from the soft drinks and potato chips, and actually do hard work. I can help you when you are ready to get back into shape  . Until that time, it is obvious that you are not responsible for what you say or do on the 600 club any more than a boisterous fifth grader who stumbled into a university level class.
I would like to clarify GM to the legions of the silent majority who read posts on the 600 Club daily. Having personally interacted with a good number of Church of Satan and Temple of Set members through the years, I can state that most Satanists *do not* believe Greater Magic is just mere psychological "play acting."
Most Satanists who see Greater Magic as just catharsis and "play acting" also tend to be those who rarely use it or find no interest in it whatsoever.
The perspective that GM is just "play acting" for fun or just emotional gratification is not the only one on the matter.
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