That is like saying everyone is special. If everyone is special, then special becomes mundane and looses all purpose.

Also, Anton LeVay also suggest that a mastery of Lesser magic provides for greater mastery of Greater magic. I will not disagree with this statement, however, I hope I have shown that a mastery of Greater magic leads to a mastery of Lesser magic. In fact, if you think about it, you will realize that little to no mastery of lesser magic is truly needed to perform Greater magic, while Lesser magic depends upon Greater magic. Then you are left with a decision, which type of magic is truly greater, the magic that manipulates others to your will, or the magic that gives you the strong will to perform it?

I don't know anyone who uses GBM Workings on a daily or even a weekly basis. However i can say this for LBM. I'll use LBM on a daily basis if i cannot find normal means to remedy a situation.

GBM is useful, yes. But not needed...LBM is a must for the LHP Magician.

There is nothing exterior. (sometimes I think that I am an agnostic! Then, I'm reminded of where I get my metaphysics from. Ah, I'm a Satanist...I'm a Satanist. LOL!!)

My understanding of reality and the metaphysical claims I accept came from my studies into science and philosophy. My philosophical and moral views and personal use of symbolism match up most closely with Satanism, which is why I consider myself a Satanist. I've never looked to Satanism for answers or reassurance of belief.

I recently went to a talk on Buddhism and meditation, and one of the statements made was that the brain is not the mind. This ties in with certain scientific thought on quantum physics and metaphysics. This is a fascinating subject and i believe it bears strongly on magicical practice. Reading books about science made me believe in magic whereas prior to this it was all so much superstition and hokum.

As much as Satanic philosophy is concerned, I have a statement to make: to each person, they can take whatever they can use.

When I take a look at something of interest, I like to concretely visualize all that is possible with its utility in my life.

It's applicability to how I live life occupies the primary reason why I gravitated towards it in the first place. I enjoy collating Satanism with life; therefore, making a bolder impression on my outlook of it.

What would make for interesting reading though is to have further sentences detailing what philosophical viewpoints you find illuminating, what kind of moral stances you take in relation to Satanism, etc. etc. (Just a suggestion)

The Objective Universe (OU): This is the physical totality of matter & energy, including your own physical body, extending in four dimensions.

Where I disagree is the idea that the SU is so separated from the OU. The psyche results from the brain, and the more I learn about brain structure and the utility of these different structures, the more confident I become in making that statement. I do not think that when I die what will be left is a "mindless mind." I expect there to be no mind at all, just as there would be no capacity for language if the language centers of ones brain were severely injured.

When you perform GM, you are messing around with your own psyche, but you are also messing with the way the neurons are wired in your brain, which is definitively part of the OU. With the performance of GM, you can change your own psyche and your own brain, but beyond that the only change that may occur from beyond the psyche is how others react to the change you've made within yourself.

This is what I think is actually holding magic back, magicians sit in poorly lit rooms with candles, or whatever they personally do, and try to influence events by thinking about it really, really hard.

I'll admit, as I had before, that this can be very beneficial if used with an understanding that you are only manipulating yourself. You can use it to make yourself more confident, more optimistic, think about the ways you can accomplish something, and what you might have to do if it fails. However, you still have to actually do something. Your body language, tone of voice, and actions will match that of somebody who is confident, optimistic, and knows what's going on, because you actually are confident, optimistic, and you've made sure you know what's going on. That will help you out in just about anything you do, but you need a goal and you need to take real action.

If an individual consciousness (ka, psyche, soul) fears, denies, and or rejects its distinction and isolation from the OU, it seeks to rejoin it, to be absorbed into it, to become indistinguishable from it. It attempts this through the generation of a SU which is as identical to, or at least as harmonious with the OU as possible, then obliterating its distinction and difference from that OU. This, in its many varieties, is WM. Its theoretical culmination is known by such names as Grace, Samadhi, Nirvana, etc. However WM is nevertheless an illusion, an act of self-deception or self-anesthetizing. It is never actual absorption into the OU, but only a SU construction of same. The most that the isolate consciousness can do is to stupefy itself until its physical extensions cease [in "death"], whereupon it lacks all coherence, becomes a "mindless mind": existing but having no focus or concept of this existence.

Only in Indianapolis.

What do you think?

Duende

The goal of sculpting your subjective universe to your Will is something I work towards every day. In that I am sympathetic to your ideas.

But

I think reality is what it is, and whether or not our particular species of animal are here to experience it doesn't make too much difference. I think the idea that our combined experience of the world somehow creates it to be an extraordinary claim for which extraordinary evidence would be required, before one should give it any serious consideration.

If the SU is an aspect of the OU, then are you asserting that GM is merely a psychological effect that does not extend beyond the mind of the individual Satanist?

If you apply the idea that subjective universes create everything to your day to day affairs or to science than yes, to some it may appear as nonsense. Within thie the ritual chamber however, you may find that scientifically irrelevant ideas may yield some OU results that warrant further investigation.

Can the application of GM result in a strengthening of our sense of self which makes the SU appear to dwarf the OU? Yes.

What causes the SU to agree?
One thing I have noticed over the years is that the OU results of my successful GM operations manifest through the actions of other people, thus implying a link between all SU. There appears to be a link between all SU . Through GM, the SU of the Satanist seems to be able to violate the "laws" of the OU.

If the SU is an aspect of the OU, then are you asserting that GM is merely a psychological effect that does not extend beyond the mind of the individual Satanist?

I want to know how GM works. I want to know why. I want to know how the whole contraption is put together. I am not certain if I will truly know for sure, but I derive great satisfaction and many other benefits from the quest itself.

Secondly, the idea that subjective universes create everything is just plain stupid. Take it back a step and there is no universe from which we could have evolved. To make any sort of coherent sense you would need a creation myth at the core of this idea.

I suppose you had to say something that made sense eventually.

YES.

Magic is self transformative psychodrama. Kicking the greater subconscious mind into action though catharsis. The conscious mind is a very small part of who we are, and does not exert nearly as much control as some seem to think. The conscious mind is largely an observer, rather than an actor. The purpose of GM is to affect change in ways that are generally 'off limits' to the conscious mind.

It is through these changes in ones own perceptions and actions that the objective universe is effected and changed.

Until that time, it is obvious that you are not responsible for what you say or do on the 600 club any more than a boisterous fifth grader who stumbled into a university level class.

Dan Dread,

Your view of GM as mere psychodrama is very common among those who have not tried it, are unsuccessful at it, or are simply afraid of it. It is quite common for people like you, to feel insecure when their beliefs are challenged and then lash out to defend their soft and lazy perspectives.

Examining complex ideas such as Greater Magic and the operation of the human psyche demands that you get up and away from the soft drinks and potato chips, and actually do hard work. I can help you when you are ready to get back into shape . Until that time, it is obvious that you are not responsible for what you say or do on the 600 club any more than a boisterous fifth grader who stumbled into a university level class.

The perspective that GM is just "play acting" for fun or just emotional gratification is not the only one on the matter.

I would like to clarify GM to the legions of the silent majority who read posts on the 600 Club daily. Having personally interacted with a good number of Church of Satan and Temple of Set members through the years, I can state that most Satanists *do not* believe Greater Magic is just mere psychological "play acting."

... Well according to Duende I was right about one thing for sure. He's implied there are plenty of delusional people sitting in rooms trying to change the world by thinking really, really hard about it, and not only in Indianapolis. When do I get my apology Doc?

If you are saying the universe IS..for all intents and purposes, sensory signals interpreted by the brain, and as such the only reality we can experience is completely subjective,..then I agree 100%.

Consider a video game. All the code is there, in a certain order, formatted a certain way. The graphics engine interprets that code and delivers it in a way that is meaningful to our brain and senses. Take the graphics engine away, and the code is still there. Reality is what it is, all we are is interpreters.

On the other hand, the belief that we somehow project reality out of ourselves and without us all would cease to exist, is patently stupid.

I suppose this is mostly right, but you're missing a huge aspect of it. The GM ritual will only effect you psychologically, but the psychological effects will change your behavior. This brings what you've done in the GM ritual to the realm of the OU and LM. You use GM to change yourself, change your behavior, with the goal of enhancing your LM abilities.

I would like to clarify GM to the legions of the silent majority who read posts on the 600 Club daily. Having personally interacted with a good number of Church of Satan and Temple of Set members through the years, I can state that most Satanists *do not* believe Greater Magic is just mere psychological "play acting."

All magick can be described as manipulation and as such, there are only two approaches; either manipulate oneself or manipulate others.

If you are so sure that magic is good for anything other than catharsis, please explain.

What function does each element of the ritual serve. For example; does ringing a bell send out magical waves that penetrate the mind of your intended target and make them act in accordance with your desires? Does saying certain words in a certain order summon some supernatural being that grants wishes?

What does ritual do, and how?

I experience catharsis as well but there are times when there appears something of the ritual did act beyond my skull and modify the SU of other people and the OU.

I have known Satanists who have had experiences as a result of GM that they were unable to explain as LM or just coincidence.

These experiences are moments of synchronicity where events occurred in the OU which reflected the desired results in GM.

This link or connection may be a force not yet discovered through science.

I think that through GM, we give form to this force/link within the ritual chamber. I don't think it matters if you say certain words in a certain order or summon a god or demon.

experience catharsis as well but there are times when there appears something of the ritual did act beyond my skull and modify the SU of other people and the OU.

(general reply)
(

GBM
I have not done any GBM rituals, but my distinct impression is that part of GBM is akin to "doing LBM on yourself". Since one can autodeify, and one controls one's subjective universe, and since one's brain is easily reprogrammable, it seems that it should be straightforward to adjust as desired. ("Look everybody, it's Tony Robbins!")


I think this is the objective (or part of the objective) to the yoga practices in the Crowley systems and the Temple of Set (I think I saw something that made me think that of ToS - please correct me if I'm wrong). See also Robert Anton Wilson's Prometheus Rising.

If you reprogram your SU to get where you want to be, is that any different than changing the OU? I dunno. In my metaphysics, the OU includes all SUs, including yours - does changing your own SU constitute changing the OU? Again, I dunno. Certainly seems like it.

GBM also seems a useful tool to focus yourself, and perhaps to focus your will (or Will). I think this is also part of the point of yoga in AC's systems, or perhaps in general.

Since I haven't done any rituals, I can't speak to actually modifying the OU solely via a GBM ritual ("like in the movies"). As I said in the beginning, I don't rule it out, I just haven't seen it done.

Conclusion
There is no conclusion - I'm learning and cross-referencing a lot of this, and I'm open to having my mind changed. As I said, this is all just my current opinion, and probably not new for most of you.

I think for a number of people, GM is "doing LBM on yourself." GBM by definition is not. When you do LBM on yourself, you are engaging in what some would call White Magic.

Duende (and other room sitters that may be),

I will fulfill your need for acceptance for a moment.

I see it a bit as a painter that prefers to see a certain imagine materialized. He can either sit in his studio visualizing it extremely hard hoping one day it will magickally appear on canvas somewhere, or he can share this imagine with other painters, or paint it himself.
His success rate for the first option will not be tremendously high.

D.

In the ritual, he invokes Satan and creates a SU in which these desires are fulfilled.

So Satan is something that can be invoked? What is it? Is this an actual being or some sort of supernatural "force"? Is it the Christian Satan?

Question: what do you call it when the manipulation of either the Self or an Other manifests into the physical?

Here is a story which illustrates GM. There is LM hidden in there too.

I think for a number of people, GM is "doing LBM on yourself." GBM by definition is not. When you do LBM on yourself, you are engaging in what some would call White Magic.
I don't believe anyone can change the OU through ritual "like in the movies"but I do think we sometimes can give it the right push at the right moment to create the momentum we need for whatever our objective was.
Is there any reason you have not attempted GM that you would like to share?

Actions undertaken by actors under the influence of this particular Subjective Universe, have had, and do have, an effect in the Objective Universe of matter, energy and scientific laws.

On the contrary, I do GM all the time (as I define it) - I just don't do a full-fledged Satanic ritual. Taking time to review, focus, plan, "emotionally gird your loins" as MatthewJ1 put it, those are all valid activities.

One could argue that a dedicated chamber and a ritual are excellent tools to achieve those - I would probably buy that argument.

But you're trying to convince me by citing a story that claims that GM boils down to really, really, really wanting to be rich and famous. Diavolo has already pointed out the confirmation bias evident. I'll add that if that type of GM worked reliably, an abnormally large number of rich/famous/successful people would be practicing Satanists, and it would spread like wildfire.

If ritual GBM produces results, they can be measured. After forty-some-odd years, I'd expect that someone could at least come up with a better explanation than "I really, really want something and sometimes I get it."

Since there's none of that, all I'm left with is that you're really only manipulating your own thinking, and abdicating responsibility for it - hence, you're doing LBM on yourself, but don't realize it. This is no different than an athlete saying, "I'd like to thank Jesus for helping me score this touchdown."

Assuming a link exists between the OU and SU does not in any way imply not going out and taking action in the OU to achieve your goals. Because there are so many SU defining the meaning of the OU, you are just one SU and must direct your GM to affect specific areas of the OU and/or other SU to tweak it/them in the way you desire.

A group ritual may generate a greater effect on the OU as there are more wills (SU) involved. When this is done consciously, it is called GM. When it is done unconsciously, and a group of SU is being manipulated to alter their perception without their awareness of the process, it is called propaganda.

Do I believe GM may have effects beyond one's skull?
Absolutely. I base my opinion on my personal experiences and those of others who have shared theirs with me. If you don't subscribe to that opinion, that is fine with me.

There is no need to see everything in black or white when there are many available shades of gray, or as Anton LaVey called it,taking the Third Side.

I do think that by completely denying any probability of a tenuous link between all SU and the OU, and assuming everything that can be known about consciousness has indeed already been discovered by science, you may be closing yourself to the possibility of a beneficial new experience.

This Objective Universe in itself, as opposed to our subjective vision or interpretation of it, is matter, energy and is conformable to some sort of scientifc law.

'Actions undertaken by actors under the influence of this particular Subjective Universe, have had, and do have, an effect in the Objective Universe of matter, energy and scientific laws.'

Christian changes within the OU. Some quick examples.

Religious based war - manipulation of matter and the killing of living beings

The Inquisition - the seizing and murder of living organic beings.

Creation of places of worship - manipulation of matter.

(successful) Manipulation is:

I have an idea – I want that idea realized – I realize that idea.

That's all, there is nothing more to it even when certain steps might be complex or take an awful lot of time and energy.

Are you really going to give serious consideration to the opinion of someone who even claims that they believe that ToV bullshit?

One very real and dangerous aspect that I have found in certain Satanic circles is, if a person gets themselves in a position where they are looked upon by a bunch of individuals as a Magus or some Know it All, then eventually they will actually start believing their own line of bullshit themselves.

Are you really going to give serious consideration to the opinion of someone who even claims that they believe that ToV bullshit?

One very real and dangerous aspect that I have found in certain Satanic circles is, if a person gets themselves in a position where they are looked upon by a bunch of individuals as a Magus or some Know it All, then eventually they will actually start believing their own line of bullshit themselves.

I have to agree with this post. Although, in Nemo's own essay on the Church of Satan titled "Satanism Needs an Enema!" he is strongly against Theism. Maybe Wolflust mis interpereted it although I have not read this new blog myself.

Even so, it seems to me that there are folks on here with highly different views on magic, so anyone who can educate me or inform me on the matter are welcome to do so, even though it may end up with me calling bullshit on them.

Well, there are only three ways to go with it.

1). Magic is 'psychodrama' and nothing else
2). Magic is 'psychodrama' and possibly something else
3). Magic is 'psychodrama' and definitely something else

Where:

something else = "The change in situations or events in accordance with one's will, which would, using normally accepted methods, be unchangeable." (courtesy of The Satanic Bible)

Folks who tend to accept or are curious about options 2 & 3 would likely see a debate to convince you of anything as a waste of time.

To borrow again from the Satanic Bible, Satanism demands study.

But beyond this, all the effort that you put into studying and manipulating the information in your brain will come back to you in the form of increased apparent intimacy with these "ghosts in the machine" who have a major influence on your mindset and your relationships with others.

My “view on magic”, for the moment at least, is that it must be extraordinary. That’s it; that alone separates magic from non-magic. Some may think of magic more in terms of methods. Fine – if someone has created an extraordinary means of tying his shoes, he has worked magic. Others, such as me, may think of magic more in terms of results. Fine - if someone pays off $70,000 of debt in five years by simply working his ass off and living off rice and beans, he has worked magic.

Magic is the art of exceptionalism.

...Yes, our body has an electromagnetic field. Yes, our thoughts and senses and actions and reactions, our neural impulses in other words, are electrochemical in nature. But no, it's not useful to describe this as "energy". The actual energy (capacity to do work) involved is barely enough to make a light bulb flicker.

They can't put everyone into a rocket, so there are people who think that moon landing was a hoax. Same thing here. People don't believe until they see it for themselves, some will doubt even then.

Yes, it exists and is everywhere. I'm not a fan of greater magic, and wouldn't use it very often.

Yeah; and for every 99,999999999999999999999999999999999% who claims to apply it successfully;
I am the 00,000000000000000000000000000000001% who actually does.

Go figure...