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#38030 - 04/23/10 07:30 AM Re: Prove it [Re: TheInsane]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
I just read through Mindmasters and MawhrinSkels posts and I just wanted to add that I greatly appreciate what both of you wrote. Both posts make me think and that is indeed a good grade ;\)

I do think the most important thing about anything is that it doesn’t become stagnant and this was always my main critique of LaVeyan Satanism. I myself have my foundation in that thought but I see it as if I have grown out of the label LaVeyan a long time ago because I did branch out and I did go to the roots and even to a whole different world.

I have LaVey to thank for opening the gates but to be honest today I value Nietzsche and Heraclitus a lot more than LaVey. However without LaVey I might not have discovered either of the two.

I also branched out and am very influenced by certain ideas in tantra which, as we all should know, is where the left hand path originates from. I take influence both from the Buddhist branch and the Hindu one. The myths and practices around Kali in particular. And I also appreciate the Tao te Ching as I find that it in a lot of way correspond to Heraclitus.

What I want to say by this is that even though I may be atheistic in my view on life I do not hesitate to look into theistic systems (like the Hindu one) and realize that I can still learn a lot from them. Sure, to me their myths are only symbolic representations but to me it can help visualize the world and its possible foundations in quite a beautiful way.

 Quote:
She is naked and dark like a threatening rain cloud. She is dark, for she who is herself beyond mind and speech, reduces all things into that worldly "nothingness" which as the Void of all which we now know, is at the same time the All (purna) which is Light and Peace. . . . She stands upon the white corpse-like body of Shiva. He is white because He is illuminating transcendental aspect of Consciousness. He is inert because he is the changeless aspect of the Supreme, and she apparently changing aspect of the same. In truth, she and he are one and the same, being twin aspects of the One who is changelessness in, and exists as, change.


And while some people tend to believe the above quote to be literary true, a male and a female divine being of consciousness making up what we call the world, I see it as a beautiful poetic way of explaining that which I, and Heraclitus, find to be the base of the universe. That is that the only thing that is unchanging is change itself.

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#38032 - 04/23/10 08:34 AM Re: Prove it [Re: Mindmaster]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Many Satanists read the TSB and like what they see, and then they refuse to do any leg work because "all of these things don't exist" or whatever. It is the standard cop-out! Exploring spiritual paths would make you un-Satanic or other such nonsense. I'm declaring war on you types as you are putrid wastes of humanity that would do much better as fertilizer than a Satanist. You are as weak as the Christians, but instead of having an open fear of spiritual awakening you have a backward-talking fear of the irrational. The defense to the positions they have is "shields up", thus neither know anything at all.

Tell me about your "awakening"...
"Spiritual enlightenment" is nothing more than some illusionairy feeling of this strange concept of "good"/"bad". What you call spiritual is what I call self-delusion, emotional reactions and exgageration. Spirituality (and likes) is but a term invented by man to give trivial actions and experiences this "catchy" tone.

Reading a book like the TSB is not "spiritual enlightment", it is plain fucking insight and recognition. Nothing more and nothing less. Even so, for every term starting with "spiritual ..." I can come up with a more accurate word which is less catchy but cuts the cheese much more smoothly.

 Quote:
Perhaps, you then could answer the question of why you live in the self-denial typically associated with Christians? Denial of the forces present within your own mind and that you have nothing in common with them nor derive no pleasure in that relationship! Verily, you mock it like a disappointed school-girl and seem disappointed that the boogie man didn't decide to show up at your house, but did visit your friends a night since passed!
Why is it always considered that atheistic visions, or visions that leave no place for "spooky" forces, contain self-denial? I say: know what you practice and practice what you know. Keep boiling in the self-delusion.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#38034 - 04/23/10 10:01 AM Re: Prove it [Re: Mindmaster]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Re: Mindmaster

 Quote:
Surely, this view is unpopular with the types that frequent this forum... that there could be something not explained. Realize that all ideals, views, and beliefs are an ongoing process of evolution which requires the seeker to seek. Stasis is death in all things! LaVey's ideas were very good for his time, but are they comprehensive enough to explain the experiences we are having now? Are they to be regarded is a mere stepping stone on the journey? Only time will tell, but we have to keep moving forward or fall to the side as inferiority slips into the core of the philosophy.


Arguments for theism typically boil down to "well, I can FEEL the presence of God," or "Many smart people believe in God, so there." Correct me if I've over-generalized but it seems to be a case of the latter.

Theism is not evolution. It is not a step forward into brave new metaphysical territory. It's a step backwards; an old, tired superstition that assumes too much and shows too little.

 Quote:
Many Satanists read the TSB and like what they see, and then they refuse to do any leg work because "all of these things don't exist" or whatever. It is the standard cop-out! Exploring spiritual paths would make you un-Satanic or other such nonsense.


I call shenanigans on this one. Yes, some people who call themselves Satanists are lazy goodfornothings, but I think it was Nemesis that said a while ago that Satanism is not simply getting a blowjob and being able to enjoy it. Satanism, and the whole of the LHP for that matter, is a process of growth and self-mastery.

MawhrinSkel wrote of the "higher self" in relation to Nietzsche's idea of the Will to Power. I find myself in total agreement. You can call this, as I stated before, the Holy Guardian Angel, the inner daimonos, or what have you. It is what it is. This is akin to the maxim "Whether magic exists or not, it works."

The question is ultimately not about whether the voices and floods of ideas in your head comes from your own being or from some external deity. It's about whether or not they help you grow and develop as an individual in the process of apotheosis. However, most of us are skeptical, so we apply Occam's Razor in that the simplest explanation is usually the best-- ie, there is no supernatural, astral plane, telepathy, etc. Until there is some pressing need to reconsider, we will continue in our skepticism. This does not interfere with our Becoming, and in fact encourages it because it ensures we do not find ourselves holding any absurd beliefs simply out of "faith" like so many others do, and therefore falling into a self-destructive rut of stagnancy.

We are not "afraid" of some "force". We recognize this force; we call it Satan. However, we don't jump the gun and give it untenable supernatural attributes.

Neither are we afraid to explore other systems, or at least I'm not, as evidenced by my seemingly endless binge of religious and occult study, in addition to a rather nasty addiction to Ceremonial Magic.

I think, overall, you're making a false dichotomy. Perhaps if you could explain your beliefs or ideas a bit clearer we could address the issue more concisely.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#38035 - 04/23/10 10:05 AM Re: Prove it [Re: Dimitri]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
An interesting thread in this whole discussion is the linguistic one. I don’t doubt that the feeling people assert to words like "awakening" or "spiritual experience" is a fraud or is non-existent. I’m sure the feeling is there but the words we use to describe it differ depending on our worldview.

What for me may be called a rational realization may be what another person calls spiritual awakening even though the feeling causing us to put it into words is the same in both of us.

I have had a few experiences, most often when surrounded by wilderness, when I suddenly feel how things are connected. I guess this isn’t as much a rational understanding as it is an emotional one. I however do deny the existence of gods and spirits and I wouldn’t be comfortable calling this sensation I felt by the name divine. I do however think some people would indeed, and without hesitation, call the very same feeling by a divine name. I think it reflects the worldview one has before one experiences the feeling. Some Satanists might call it magical instead since magic is more accepted in satanic circles.

Anyway, these were some short reflections. Maybe a little bit off topic but I felt it still contributed to what was being discussed.


Edited by TheInsane (04/23/10 10:06 AM)

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#38038 - 04/23/10 05:48 PM Re: Prove it [Re: TheInsane]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I have been following this thread,and I was hoping you could clairify your position.

You deny the existence of gods and spirits.
You feel an emotional connectedness to everything in the wilderness on occasion.

You believe there is no such thing as free will, thus everything is preordained.

Why?


thanks,
Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#38040 - 04/23/10 08:07 PM Re: Prove it [Re: Dimitri]
Mindmaster Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Detroit, MI
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

Tell me about your "awakening"...
"Spiritual enlightenment" is nothing more than some illusionairy feeling of this strange concept of "good"/"bad". What you call spiritual is what I call self-delusion, emotional reactions and exgageration. Spirituality (and likes) is but a term invented by man to give trivial actions and experiences this "catchy" tone.

Reading a book like the TSB is not "spiritual enlightment", it is plain fucking insight and recognition. Nothing more and nothing less. Even so, for every term starting with "spiritual ..." I can come up with a more accurate word which is less catchy but cuts the cheese much more smoothly.

Why is it always considered that atheistic visions, or visions that leave no place for "spooky" forces, contain self-denial? I say: know what you practice and practice what you know. Keep boiling in the self-delusion.



Unfortunately there isn't a more accurate term than spiritual for what I was writing about, and awakening is simply a shift in consciousness to a large degree and nothing really more. One could consider fully embracing Satanism to be one type of awakening, and there are many others. All of these situations have aspects that effect your "spiritual" proclivity whether that involves an acceptance of supernatural concepts or the denial that they in fact exist and that you will have nothing to do with them. It's basically impossible to convince anyone of anything if they won't hear it! Maybe if you have enough bullets, anyway.

If anything I was attempting to encourage some thought and exploration. That maybe very possibly there is more to the left hand path than many believe. I could prattle on about my personal experiences, but without my personal frame of reference they have very little meaning. Most of the events would seem very insignificant in total, but from a bird's eye view are like having a big arrow painted on the map of your life. Looking at my map won't help anyone else because I'm not standing where they are. Each individual has their own challenges in life, and their own set of limitations imposed by their upbringing and other factors. I would just be stabbing in the dark attempting to tell you how to reach that destination, so I'll spare you the bullshit. I just consider myself a student of life, so don't take any of that for some posturing on my part. I don't think I am any better or worse than anyone else.

Interestingly enough, "spooky forces" is not what I was eluding to. More that these forces are already present to a degree in ones own mind, and that is all the proof that is required. Its far more convincing that trying to prove the presence of some external idea that you may not currently be able to perceive. My only stretch of logic in this idea is that you must be able to rationalize something that exists in your own consciousness can exist outside of your own. To some existent that is as simple as finding another person that shares your feelings on a subject.

Modern psychology (yay science!) doesn't even deny the existence of these archetypes outside of an individual. In fact, if anything the concept of an archetype is just symbolic recognition of something that already exists. Of course, Carl Jung and Plato are known for their heavily deluded writing as classically they are the proponents of this idea! :P But, the fact that two or more people can experience or share this symbol of Satan means that it exists independently of them. Is it a walking talking Devil? Well.. why does it have to be? Does a creature composed of collective consciousness have a will? That's a question I can't really answer... My experiences to some degree bear out that such things do not exist and think as we do... At least for the purposes of ritual magic it is easier to assume they are since the human social machinery deals better with this conception. Of course you can start debating with me the existence of consciousness, but then we get are just getting silly. Sometimes I feel as though the "divine spark" I mentioned was simply the facility of that all the other animals on this rock seem to lack. We can override our biological programming if we need to, and other creatures simply can't. But, it's just an idea... I still haven't researched that to my satisfaction.

Spirituality however is simply the exploration of consciousness and not something to fear. Its a realm where you can't bring a pack full of microscopes and rulers. You have to do your own work to understand your own machinery and the only "stretch" is that the ancients believed that by understanding your microcosm that the macrocosm would unfold to you. The great thing about being a Satanist is you are able to explore without reservation, and that allows you to partake in anything that works in your journey. You can also just decide you're happy wherever you may be at the time the onerous being solely upon the individual.

A Satanic path doesn't necessarily conflict with a spiritual path as much as you would think. In my own case it has given me perspective and an even keel. It's good to have a whetstone to sharpen your ideas against and Satanism is a good bullshit detector on the whole. I incorporate a lot of classical thought and practice into my composite philosophy, but I make no assumption that will do for everyone. My practices are based on the assumption that: "I do not know everything, and things possibly exist outside of my perception" and that will not work for someone that believes: "I do know everything, and nothing exists outside of my understanding"

That's not a blind faith concept, but rather a realization of possibility. For some people that possibility can be painful, and I understand.

- Mind


Edited by Mindmaster (04/23/10 08:13 PM)

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#38044 - 04/23/10 09:40 PM Re: Prove it [Re: Mindmaster]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: Mindmaster
So do you believe in some sort of idea of dark thought yourself that decides that you aren't entirely an Atheist only? Welp, you just found your Devil. Game over. Sure, I can explain.


I sure hope you can explain because so far you aren't making any sense.

 Originally Posted By: Mindmaster
The philosophers of the past from the times of Pythagoras to the Chaldeans, and the Cabalists all had the belief that "God" or the divine existed and man was created in its image, thus by logical extension "man" was accurately a microcosmic God containing of a divine spark. Thus, and contained within a man thus has a logical correspondence somewhere else in the universal pea soup which reflected the divine aspect of this particular form or archetype. As above, so below; so below, as above. Man, logically in conventional mysticism was a "mini-God" or self-contained universe of consciousness. We seem to function accordingly as well don't we? That which exists within us exists without us by this analogy. I guess when you don't have so many TV's and video games you spend your life trying to figure out things. :P


It doesn't seem like you have figured much out at all. Sure, people have believed all sorts of crazy things. It is important to remember that beliefs can be false, that is to say, wrong.


 Originally Posted By: Mindmaster
LaVey obviously drew from the sources of classical hermetic thought in his own books. It would be relatively silly to believe he didn't think anything of it when he gleened the materials in a somewhat altered form and penned them into The Satanic Bible. One doesn't trouble themselves with incorporating the ideas for which they don't believe in. But, LaVey was a pretty smart guy and probably realized the average waste of humanity on this rock doesn't care about their spiritual advancement. So he probably decided there was more gold to be had in Satanic tourism, and I'd tend to agree. What'd he personally believe? Well, do your homework and do the math... I doubt he'd bother to read Aleister Crowley, John Dee, or any of the other classical references if he thought it was 100% hogwash. It's truly hard to read through these types of things when you intellectually reject them completely as had been the case in my own youth.


LaVey incorporated the ideas of a lot of people when he wrote TSB. However, you stating this obvious fact does nothing in the way of proving the existence of Satan (or indeed any other super natural entity) - as was the purpose of this thread. I am not concerned with what LaVey believed or didn't believe; such a discussion has been done to death. Similarly, I am not concerned with what anyone else believes because, as I have already stated, beliefs can be wrong. What I am interested in the proof for validity of these beliefs.

 Originally Posted By: Mindmaster
To understand Crowley in particular you need a good backing in esoterica to understand anything the man writes. You need a comprehensive knowledge of correspondences just to make heads or tails of most of it. Conversely, TSB enochian keys are just adapted from Crowley's _Equinox_ publishing with every god word replaced with "Satan" or other minor alterations. Surely, one goes through all of this trouble for no apparent reason. :P I think LaVey had a very real perception of the forces that be, but it doesn't sell as many books and memberships. The Church of Satan probably neutered itself and became an entirely secular institution for this reason alone. It's far easier to get money from rich folks when you're just "playing" with the devil verses doing the devils work.


Again, I am not concerned with what people believe but why. And the only justification I can/will accept is one that provides undeniable proof. If you can not do that then you are really just wasting time.


 Originally Posted By: Mindmaster
All that being said, I probably would share your views if I didn't understand that a vehement disbelief of any concept is putting you in the same muddy water as those who have faith without reason. Your eyes are tightly closed in either case and do not aid any spiritual development or understanding. Classically, "The Devil" is in the details; If you seek self-gratification over self-denial, your will over "gods will", and seek to break free of conventions then you are obviously proving this existence of this force through your own action regardless of your beliefs. You can deny that those things exist but that doesn't change the obvious manifestation in your consciousness and by extension very real presence.


This "vehement disbelief" most certainly does not put me in the same boat as Christians when I can logically and rationally back up my reasons for my disbelief. My lack of belief is not faith based and therefore makes me pretty much diametrically opposed to the Christian mindset.


 Originally Posted By: Mindmaster
Perhaps, you then could answer the question of why you live in the self-denial typically associated with Christians? Denial of the forces present within your own mind and that you have nothing in common with them nor derive no pleasure in that relationship! Verily, you mock it like a disappointed school-girl and seem disappointed that the boogie man didn't decide to show up at your house, but did visit your friends a night since passed!


Self-denial? I am not practicing any form of self-denial. What I am practicing is a healthy skepticism of things that I can see no good reason for believing in. My mind is indeed open, just not so open that I run the risk of having my brain fall out.


 Originally Posted By: Mindmaster
Needless to say, I can't believe in the Satan someone else creates for me nor can you! But, I do believe one can reach inside to increase that power infinitely and perhaps experience it directly by extension which tends to be an accurate realization in relation to my own meanderings. This view is nothing new, and has been held by traditional mystics since the time of the ancient Egyptians and possibly before. I perhaps would view similarly to you if "Modern Satanism" could possibly be a large enough container for my experiences, but I have found it lacking in many ways. It perhaps accurately describes a traveler starting on a journey in earnest, but it is not very far along the left hand path that one realizes the insufficiencies. Nonetheless, it's very much a part of my core and a love the idealism of it validates it's personal relevance to me. It's a part of me, but I've become much more.


Arguments from personal i.e. subjective experiences do not amount to a rational basis for belief in anything no matter how much you wish it were so. Nor does the longevity of a belief make it anymore true - no matter how far back you can trace the origins of that belief.


 Originally Posted By: Mindmaster
Many Satanists read the TSB and like what they see, and then they refuse to do any leg work because "all of these things don't exist" or whatever. It is the standard cop-out! Exploring spiritual paths would make you un-Satanic or other such nonsense. I'm declaring war on you types as you are putrid wastes of humanity that would do much better as fertilizer than a Satanist. You are as weak as the Christians, but instead of having an open fear of spiritual awakening you have a backward-talking fear of the irrational. The defense to the positions they have is "shields up", thus neither know anything at all.


War? I find it funny that you try to compare me to a Christian yet you are the one who wants to declare war on anyone who doesn't think like you. But if it is war you want, then, well, bring it on I guess. I'm always up for a good a fight. \:\)


 Originally Posted By: Mindmaster
Surely, this view is unpopular with the types that frequent this forum... that there could be something not explained. Realize that all ideals, views, and beliefs are an ongoing process of evolution which requires the seeker to seek. Stasis is death in all things! LaVey's ideas were very good for his time, but are they comprehensive enough to explain the experiences we are having now? Are they to be regarded is a mere stepping stone on the journey? Only time will tell, but we have to keep moving forward or fall to the side as inferiority slips into the core of the philosophy.

I apologize for the length of this thanks for being patient. :P

- Mind


I can't speak for everyone who uses this forum but I personally do not make the assumption that the writings of LaVey explain everything. I accept that our understanding of the world and our place in it is constantly changing and I do not doubt the possibility of proof of things that I do not believe in surfacing. This possibility, however, is not enough reason to believe. It for that exact reason that I made this thread in the first place: to challenge people to prove it. Well, that and I was bored. \:D

Sorry, but you have failed. If you wish to try again please come a little more well prepared.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#38062 - 04/24/10 03:20 AM Re: Prove it [Re: Mindmaster]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
If anything I was attempting to encourage some thought and exploration. That maybe very possibly there is more to the left hand path than many believe. I could prattle on about my personal experiences, but without my personal frame of reference they have very little meaning. Most of the events would seem very insignificant in total, but from a bird's eye view are like having a big arrow painted on the map of your life. Looking at my map won't help anyone else because I'm not standing where they are. Each individual has their own challenges in life, and their own set of limitations imposed by their upbringing and other factors.

Ever heard about "specie-interaction"? You can have a much more effect on someone's life than you'll probably know. Even so, you might have some knowledge to share with people which is derived from your personal experiences. You are but a human, and every human will face a few events during his life. Those who have endured them can share the knowledge on "how to handle it". Taking a look at your map can be gratefull, on the sole condition you have information at hand which is valuable.

 Quote:
Interestingly enough, "spooky forces" is not what I was eluding to. More that these forces are already present to a degree in ones own mind, and that is all the proof that is required. Its far more convincing that trying to prove the presence of some external idea that you may not currently be able to perceive. My only stretch of logic in this idea is that you must be able to rationalize something that exists in your own consciousness can exist outside of your own. To some existent that is as simple as finding another person that shares your feelings on a subject.

I sense you belief in "spooke forces" and will continue to do so unless you get more accurate and start naming things. There is no "force" which is unnamed. Electromagnetism is a force, gravitation is a force,...
Everything has a name, I would like to hear that specific name. Talking about forces is vague and leaves room for bullshit and opportunities for quacks to mess with the mind.

 Quote:
Spirituality however is simply the exploration of consciousness and not something to fear. Its a realm where you can't bring a pack full of microscopes and rulers. You have to do your own work to understand your own machinery and the only "stretch" is that the ancients believed that by understanding your microcosm that the macrocosm would unfold to you.

The definition you give for spirituality is what I call studying and exploration of thought patterns. The only thing I need is a pen and some paper.
BTW: the "ancients" also told a lot of bullshit. But since you think like most humans, only those shots who were a bit right are remembered and the rest is being thrown away with the trash.
You may quote Plato and others, but what you "learn" now is but a condensed version. Some of his ideas clearly showed the lack of knowledge from his time. Some of his ideas were even retarded and at the same level of information the JoS now distributes.
But we like to look at the good things only, they are more important. The critics are easily tossed aside, the negative brain-farts are much more easily forgotten.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#38074 - 04/24/10 03:05 PM Re: Prove it [Re: Dimitri]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Morgan

You deny the existence of gods and spirits.
You feel an emotional connectedness to everything in the wilderness on occasion.

You believe there is no such thing as free will, thus everything is preordained.

Why?


The reason to deny gods and thus be atheistic is quite clear and something I don’t have to explain in deep – at least not on this forum. I don’t feel a need for such a thing and I haven’t come across any kind of objective or subjective proof that they exist.

On the free will debate I never actually argued for my position. I was trying to get Doomsage to realize that his belief in free will is just that belief and/or faith since scientifically it isn’t proven to exist. In fact science tends to disprove it.

I myself am not sure what position I hold in regards to will. Its one of those things whose theory I just haven’t been able to satisfy to myself. What I do know is that I do not regard anything as having a truly free will. However I do not believe that the universe, at large at least, is predetermined either. Quantum physics speaks against it for one and my basic view on the world does in part speak against it.

I have sometimes visualized will as a surfer riding on a wave. He can’t get off the wave but he can somewhat control what he is doing while on the wave. But as I said I don’t have a grand theory in regards to will.

On the feeling I have experienced in regards to how everything is connected in nature it is by no means meant as a grand theory of the whole. It’s just a flash of feelings that one can experience a deeper sense of every things place in nature and how it is all interconnected. I know athletes have similar experiences at times when they see things in slow motion and feels what move to do next.

Hope my answers are satisfying to you. If not feel free to ask again.

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#38424 - 05/10/10 01:58 PM Re: Prove it [Re: TheInsane]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
UNDENIABLE PROOF OF THE SUPERNATURAL AND PARANORMAL:

Today my computer was crashing repeatedly and would not function correctly. After hours of troubleshooting, I realized what the problem was-- my OS was possessed by malicious extradimensional entities! So I grabbed a ritual dagger and the Lemegeton off my bookshelf, and began reciting a potent and powerful exorcism, adjuring the foul demon that plagued my hard drive, and commanding it to begone henceforth in the mighty and holy names of ADONAY ELOHIM et JEHOVA.

Pointing the dagger intimidatingly at the monitor and holding the book before me, I belligerently reminded the wicked spirit of its sinfulness and fall from grace, promising that if it did not stop crashing my PC, immediately and without delay, by the power of the Father, Sonne, and Holie Ghost, it was sure to be smitten with sacred fire and cast down into the darkest pits of Hell.

Once I felt the demonic presence emerge, I seized the invisible spirit, which stunk with foul and sulfurous breath. Struggling with this preternatural foe, I wrestled it over to the bathroom and forced it down the toilet, holding the lid down as I flushed the unholy abomination down to the bottomless abyss of Abaddon.

Needless to say, my computer functions perfectly now. If extremely reliable testimony isn't enough for you guys, I don't know what is.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#38427 - 05/10/10 03:38 PM Re: Prove it [Re: The Zebu]
Mindmaster Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Detroit, MI
LOL! Yep, that happens to me all the time. The nature of demons and spirits is always an interesting subject, but I'll save it for another post. Most black magick practitioners these days wouldn't bother with the summoning of inferior entities at this point when you could just as well be working with the Gods. Seems sort of silly to deal to take up your issues with a subordinate when you have a hotline to the boss. I can agree that most of the information in classic grimoires are rather ridiculous but they are also steeped in the brain damaged Judeo-Christian mindset of the common populace at the time. Most of these things were written at a time where people who believed in anything contrary to the mainstream were killed so this fact must be considered. Between the lumps of dirt lie the diamonds, but there is a lot of digging before you find anything. Modern practices shift away from puritanical bible references as they have been found to be completely unnecessary. I'm even pretty leery of the use of Shemhamforash in satanic ritual because it was traditionally said this way to avoid defaming the actual 72 letter name of God much in the way that Tetragrammaton was used instead of YHVH (or Yahweh/Jehovah). I would figure a Satanist would be perhaps be more interested in using the actual name in the sense of defiance, and not even to use it at all as some silly chant after ringing a bell. Its a mnemonic for a name of God and you might as well be saying Adonai (Lord, God) or YHVH (Jehovah) at that point. Lets poke some fun at ourselves first shall we?

You really can't prove anything to anyone. They must believe in the metrics and the preliminary information that you do or they can't see any apparent fact. The only proof existent is in the mind of the viewer with all phenomena and whether they will accept the information!

Remember, you are not deactivating your skeptical facilities by having knowledge of things you cannot explain. I do not pretend to know all the answers but I collect information and observe. I generally don't view one or two coincidences as significant, but I have observed situations where I have seen I don't know... like... ten? That's far beyond the realm of the random event generator. It is for reasons such as this that many occult researchers kept diaries of their experiences. It was the only way they could reference all of these happenings and come to any sort of a conclusion.

We are in a unique position at this time in human history to research any subject of interest with a depth never before known. Religious opposition and societal prejudices can't stop us, so lets work toward finding the truth honestly. Don't let the biases of those that came before you limit your experiences. Break out of the mold and become responsible for your own evolution!

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#40151 - 07/13/10 01:49 AM Re: Prove it [Re: Mindmaster]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



‘This is fun really... 'ere we go! So do you believe in some sort of idea of dark thought yourself that decides that you aren't entirely an Atheist only? Welp, you just found your Devil. Game over. Sure, I can explain.’ Mindmaster.

I am a bit late here, but wanted to comment on this anyway.

I like this quote, but feel that it needs some clarifying and polishing to be more resilient and clear.

The below statement is the crux of the matter, without the additional material:

‘So do you believe in some sort of idea of dark thought yourself that decides that you aren’t an Atheist only? Well, you have just found your Devil.’

Some points:

• I don’t need to believe in some sort of idea of dark thought. If I am experiencing an idea of dark thought, then I automatically believe in it because it is present to consciousness.
• I don’t have an idea of dark thought. I, in fact, have a thought which I define as dark, in accordance with the standards I have adopted or which my society has imposed on me.
• That thought, which I have and define as dark, originates with me and cannot be said to truly deny my philosophical conviction that I am an Atheist because I cannot legitimately identify it originating with a supernatural entity existing independently outside of myself.

I recognise and acknowledge an innate core of genuine subjectivity and potential buried deep inside my head, which is beyond culture and history and which is not subject to the metaphysical and social detritus which characterises my society and the role I may be expected to play within my society.

I share this innate core and potential with those thousands of generations of my descendants (stretching back thousands and thousands of years into the past) whom I love and admire, though the vast majority of them are unknown to me.

This quintessential me, which remains buried under thousands of years of social convention and conditioned subjectivity I have named with the signifier of Satan. It is my most precious core and can also be named the black flame. Satan, in this context, is deeply personal and important to me.

I see Satanism (just one aspect, mind you) as a concerted attempt to re-establish and celebrate the legitimate relationship between nature and culture. At this time I feel that attempting to install theism into the heart of Satanism would be to continue to muddy and blur the lines between a legitimate nature and culture.

I appreciate, however, any attempt to answer this fundamental question of what or who is Satan.

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#42311 - 08/23/10 06:23 PM Re: Prove it [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
WickedPup Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/10/10
Posts: 10
Actually took the time to read through all of this. Alot of it just seems to be on repeat and redundant merely for the sake of argument.

As a start: I AM NOT A THEIST. In any sense of the word. I have never seen any reason for a power greater than myself, or for that matter, a power that gives myself purpose or reason besides the purposes and reasons I make.
With that out of the way...

From what I've seen, there is no objective or scientific data that proves OR disproves the existence of a "god" entity. The absence of belief in a "higher" power is the same as believing that this is no "higher" power. There is no absence of belief, just a difference in it.

Just cuz some people don't see any use in it doesn't mean that others can't find use in it. Reality and belief is subjective to each individual. I'm not trying to encourage a "hugfest" here. I just want to point out the futility of arguing between theists and atheists.

Atheist: "You believe in god? Well then where the fuck is he?"
Theist: "I have faith and I can feel it in and around me"
Atheist: "You're stupid."
Theist: "You're ignorant"
Atheist: "Prove there is a god"
Theist: "Prove there isn't"

It's completely fucking pointless and just gets people heated for no reason other than their beliefs are being challenged.
Atheists have as much faith in the lack of a higher power as much as theists have faith in the existence of it.

Along with the challenge for theists to prove objectively the existence of their higher power, I would like to see the exact scientific formula that proves there is no external entity that isn't based on theoretics.

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#42312 - 08/23/10 06:38 PM Re: Prove it [Re: WickedPup]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3884
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
There is a huge difference between claiming something exists and rejecting that claim. They are not at all two equal sides of the same coin.

For starters, it is logically impossible to prove a universal negative. Saying 'prove x doesn't exist' is a logically incoherent statement. Truth value can only be ascertained for the positive claim.

Secondly, faith is not epistemology. Nothing can be known through faith, as all faith claims, even mutually exclusive ones, are equal.

If one values undefiled wisdom, and actively shuns self deciet(as any Satanist worth his salt should), these are important talking points.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#42314 - 08/23/10 06:53 PM Re: Prove it [Re: Dan_Dread]
WickedPup Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/10/10
Posts: 10
The only difference I can see is where one says I do the other says I don't.
I wasn't trying to make any relation to epistemology. Faith is the acceptance of any idea, or belief in that idea be it a thought, a person, an ideal, a principle, etc. While epistemology is the study of truth, faith is the realm of an accepted truth. Any metaphysical "truth" is subjective, including the idea of a god.
We have faith that the worlds most renown scientists are fucking up, which, they occasionally due. The difference is that we also have faith they'll go back and correct their mistakes, alter their theories and make such more accurate. While faith in a supreme being doesn't allow that being to come back and fix his fuck ups.

I'll grant that asking someone to prove the unprovable is illogical. That was the whole point. I fail to see how either side has proof other than theories and faith. Its just a matter of personal preference.
Nothing productive comes from trying to tell people they're wrong with no objective way to prove it, in either sense.


Edited by WickedPup (08/23/10 06:55 PM)

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