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#37863 - 04/19/10 11:26 AM Prove it
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Every now and then this site gets people who maintain that Satan, as an actual living entity, exists. I invite all who make such claims to prove it.

Disclaimer: Do NOT try to use faith as proof. I do not care if you can "just feel" its presence, I want undeniable, verifiable proof. If you can not do this then please do not assert any such claims as fact.
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#37874 - 04/19/10 02:48 PM Re: Prove it [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Does it matter and is a discussion like this amount to anything that hasnt already been said? Im no theist but I see it as a pointless debate really because we know it is a matter of faith and belief. On top of that every human being do have set beliefs that he or she cannot prove to be fact. If we are to go very deep philosophically on could say that we cannot prove anything.

I find that a lot of the time people who do critize people who have faith in gods or spirits or the like often are oblivious to other aspects in their own life where they themselves use faith and belief. Within the modern Satanism community one such aspect is the belief in "higher magic". It has never been proven to work and even though many of these people claim that one should have proof of the existence of Satan as a spiritual being if one is a theistic satanist they never demand the same from themselves when it comes to ritual magic.

One may feel that magic works because of some kind of connection between the ritual and the events it was supposed to have an effected on and thus see it as proof of magics existence and its ability to produce "change in situations or events in accordance with one's will, which would, using normally accepted methods, be unchangeable". However christians claim the very same thing to be true with prayer. An that is something that some satanists, of the above mentioned kind, not only challenges because of the basic philosophical idea behind it (turn to someone else for help instead of doing something about it yourself) but also because christians cannot produce "objective proof" that i works.

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#37881 - 04/19/10 06:33 PM Re: Prove it [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I think you're mostly preaching to the choir. Faith is all you can rely on with such testimonies, and faith, after all, is useless-- ESPECIALLY in the Sinister. Satanism is a process of growth and self-mastery-- therefore, worship of an external deity is not needed. Neither are any supernatural pretenses-- The Left Hand Path is perfectly justifiable in an atheistic context.

Satan, as I have experienced, cannot be called a "living entity", nor can the word be defined as some sort of sentient being that you can have a personal relationship with. Those who claim such things are just searching for another imaginary friend to worship.

The closest cognate I can think of is your own Will and Spirit; the inner Daimon, or "higher self", "Holy Guardian Angel", or whatever you call it. Satan is God, and that God is yourself. In layman's terms, It's all about YOU.

In my practice with Satanism, I have had incredibly powerful "spiritual experiences", and a deep feeling of numinous fervor that I cannot help but call "religious" or "devout"-- yet I am fully aware that such things are entirely within my own psyche. As Blake wrote, "All deities reside in the human breast".

The problem, I think, comes when people get carried away and can't control their own emotions, or their beliefs are so shallow that they need lots of supernatural nonsense to justify it. Whether there is no God, whether Satan is God, or whether Jehovah of the bible is God, I would still hold the same views.
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#37885 - 04/19/10 06:59 PM Re: Prove it [Re: The Zebu]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3813
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Faith to me is like cigarette smoking. It's a dirty habit, but if people want to abuse their own intelligence in such a way, so be it. When people try to label faith based beliefs as Satanism, it's like smoking in my house. Just aint happening on my watch.
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#37887 - 04/19/10 07:34 PM Re: Prove it [Re: Dan_Dread]
Shadow Dragon Offline
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Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 95
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Faith to me is like cigarette smoking. It's a dirty habit, but if people want to abuse their own intelligence in such a way, so be it. When people try to label faith based beliefs as Satanism, it's like smoking in my house. Just aint happening on my watch.

You do realize that atheistic/LaVeyan Satanists do not own the term "satanist," correct? If someone worships Satan as a being, what other term would they use? To me this sounds no different than the way protestants claim Catholics are "real" christians. If you want to debate the different idealogies, that's fine. But one type of Satanist saying another type isn't a real satanist, just seems a little immature in my opinion.
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#37888 - 04/19/10 07:44 PM Re: Prove it [Re: Shadow Dragon]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3813
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Seriously..all I heard there is 'boo hoo' Satanism isn't an all inclusive hugfest, and there just isn't room for mush minded 'believers' on this path. Faith is antithetical to wisdom. What defines the LHP is that it is an 'inner' path to personal empowerment. When you take what is effectively the exact same RHP formula as every other religion and just change the names, you are still left with an RHP religion. Devil worshipers aren't Satanists, period.
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#37893 - 04/19/10 09:22 PM Re: Prove it [Re: Dan_Dread]
Doomsage680 Offline
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Registered: 10/01/09
Posts: 111
Loc: NJ, USA
"On top of that every human being do have set beliefs that he or she cannot prove to be fact."

Can you please give me an example? Either you believe things falsely, or you just have not done the critical thinking to realize what reason you base your beliefs on. I can tell you that there is nothing I take on faith other than that other people exist, and it is because I have never seen any proof that some grand matrix-like structure is deceiving my perception that I reasonably hold this belief.
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#37905 - 04/20/10 04:31 AM Re: Prove it [Re: Doomsage680]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Doomsage680
"On top of that every human being do have set beliefs that he or she cannot prove to be fact."

Can you please give me an example? Either you believe things falsely, or you just have not done the critical thinking to realize what reason you base your beliefs on. I can tell you that there is nothing I take on faith other than that other people exist, and it is because I have never seen any proof that some grand matrix-like structure is deceiving my perception that I reasonably hold this belief.


As I said originally this thought stems from the studies of philosophy. Are you at all familiar with René Descartes? I suggest that you read his "meditations" (avaliable here: http://www.wright.edu/cola/descartes/ ). While I dont agree on his conclusions - I actualy hold the total opposite to be true in regards to Self but it is a god text for reflection on what we may actually know and how fragile the concept of truth really can be. And while his meditations are purely thoughts we can see this again and again. What is called truth today wasnt called truth yesterday and I bet you that what is called truth today wont be called truth tomorrow. But as I said read the meditations first and I think you will understand my reasoning.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Seriously..all I heard there is 'boo hoo' Satanism isn't an all inclusive hugfest, and there just isn't room for mush minded 'believers' on this path. Faith is antithetical to wisdom. What defines the LHP is that it is an 'inner' path to personal empowerment. When you take what is effectively the exact same RHP formula as every other religion and just change the names, you are still left with an RHP religion. Devil worshipers aren't Satanists, period.


Really? I thought the antithesis to faith in the religious sense was to not believe and nothing to do with wisdom per se.

I find it funny that you want to copyright Satanism to a atheistic ideology at the same time as you, Im guessing, am folding the term left hand path without knowing its original meanings. Ive been throught his before but since atanism has no clear history and was indeed used as a term by christians hundereds of years before self-proffessed Satanists emerged (the first proof of self-professed Satanism comes from the late 1800's. Left hand path however has a tantric hindu origin and is several thousand of years old and it most definately included theism. Who are you to redefine concepts to fit your world view?


I have to also stress that while faith in a god or a spirit isnt exactly necessary I find that having faith in general in ife is of utter importance. I think everyone agrees but I just thought I would write it down. Without faith in what you do and what is possible we really would not function as human beings. We would be totally passive and probably rot away in a corner somewhere.

And also just because someone is a theist doesnt mean they bow down and obey another being. Michael Aquino is a good example of that and he has expressed his views on this forum before and much of his writing is avaliable on the Internet for anyone to see. I think it is a close-minded assumption to be frank. And again you dont seem to know what LHP and RHP really stands for or else you wouldnt consider theism in itself a criteria of RHP. You want to copyright Satanism to atheistic belief all the while you also wish to hijack a concept that is several thousand years older than Satanism and somehow try to force your Atheism upon it even though faith (in a religious sense) was of uttmost importance (and still is) to LHP practitioners in the east (because yes that tradition is still around and still has practitioners).

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#37920 - 04/20/10 07:26 AM Re: Prove it [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Meq Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
Human beings as a whole are terrible metaphysicians.

From a Darwinian standpoint, this makes sense: Knowledge of things supposedly outside the natural universe is not really necessary for survival. Neither is a rational view of the nature of reality per se.

The human brain is basically a problem-solving survival organ, which allows humans to manipulate the natural world to their own advantage and survival. Everything from early hunting techniques and agriculture to modern science and technology are the fruits of this.

When it comes to metaphysical beliefs, truth isn't terribly 'adaptive'. Religious beliefs have flourished due to their pragmatic value in controlling and comforting the herd, aiding the survival of the species, no matter how much bullshit they contain. Humans may even be 'hard-wired' to be superstitious to some extent.

Hence the modern-day spectacle of people getting a science education, making full use of the fruits of science in terms of technology, demonstrating their ability to survive by earning good wages... and still believing in a cosmic Jewish zombie or a big red guy downstairs.

Even the most rigorous philosophers haven't really come close to answering many 'big questions' about the nature of reality. The most they've done is clarify what we are trying to ask. It's highly possible that the human brain isn't really up to the job - and that's from the intellectual elite.

This really leaves two options: Doubt and faith.

When it comes to an assertion such as "there is a real Satan", where Satan is seen as a non-physical conscious being, there can really be no good reasons to believe (that is, 'good' as in related to truth). Empirical evidence cannot test a hypothesis about something genuinely non-physical. It is thus 'unfalsifiable' and from a scientific perspective, useless and best abandoned.
It can't be tested with 'a priori' reasoning either (logic without evidence), and those who claim to possess mystical knowledge which proves it to them are layering up another unsubstantiated assertion...

The only way to believe in it is to close one's eyes and take that blind leap of faith.
And a blind leap it is...

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#37924 - 04/20/10 09:27 AM Re: Prove it [Re: Meq]
Doomsage680 Offline
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Registered: 10/01/09
Posts: 111
Loc: NJ, USA
I am well aware of the Cartesian method of doubt. But what, specifically, do you believe without reason? Give me any example.

"Without faith in what you do and what is possible we really would not function as human beings. We would be totally passive and probably rot away in a corner somewhere."

People of faith always use this argument, but what does it mean?

I don't function as a human because of irrational belief in what I do or why I do it. Indeed, nothing is more rational than realizing that life has no meaning other than that which I give it, and anything less than my best effort will lead to dissatisfaction with the life I have made myself.
It's deciding that I want to live life to the fullest and achieve happiness that keeps me from being passive. Not faith in anything.

I await an example of any belief that you hold without reason. I'll put aside your theism, as it has been addressed. Any other belief you hold that you think is without reason, and it is either baseless, or it has a reason you have simply not realized.
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"I who have nothing but the comfort of my sins"
- Vinny Paz

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#37925 - 04/20/10 09:29 AM Re: Prove it [Re: Doomsage680]
Doomsage680 Offline
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Registered: 10/01/09
Posts: 111
Loc: NJ, USA
And thanks, by the way, for posting this link to Descartes' work. I am reading it thoroughly and expect to be enlightened.
_________________________
"I who have nothing but the comfort of my sins"
- Vinny Paz

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#37932 - 04/20/10 01:24 PM Re: Prove it [Re: Doomsage680]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Doomsage680

 Quote:
But what, specifically, do you believe without reason? Give me any example. . .

. . .I await an example of any belief that you hold without reason. I'll put aside your theism, as it has been addressed. Any other belief you hold that you think is without reason, and it is either baseless, or it has a reason you have simply not realized.


Im not a theist. I thought that was clear when I said "Im no theist but I see it as a pointless debate. . ."

I never said I held belifs without reason. I wrote: "On top of that every human being do have set beliefs that he or she cannot prove to be fact. If we are to go very deep philosophically one could say that we cannot prove anything."

There are two layes to this statement. One is the philosophical one which René Descartes symbolizes quite well. Everyone who has read his meditations know what I mean. Its not a long text so I refer to it rather than repeat his arguments here. As I said before I dont agree on his conclusion to it but it does symbolize how everything we think we know exists might not exist.

Then there is the more hands on scientific level. Up until 1897 we thought the atom was the building block of everything material. The smallest particle known and indivisable. Then we discovered the electron. This became a new truth. Today most scientists seem to believe that materia does not have a inner core, a foundational building block. It is all energy that moves at different speed making up what we observe as electrons, positron, atoms etc.

The point I am making is that what is considered truth today might be considered false tomorrow. Were we then ever able to prove our statement when we considered it to be true? No of course not because if we could it wouldnt be considered false after some time had passed and new processes were being discovered.

 Quote:

"Without faith in what you do and what is possible we really would not function as human beings. We would be totally passive and probably rot away in a corner somewhere."

People of faith always use this argument, but what does it mean?


I must clarify that I dont mean "faith in god" (or satan for that matter) but faith and belief as in "Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing" and "mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something". If we dont have belief in ourselves and in what we can accomplish do you really think we would be able to do something. It can be concrete to a point of almost being silly. Would you be able to walk to the store and buy your toilet paper if you did not have a belief that you could do it? No because you would fight a mental block that you wouldnt be able to pass.

This precis thing can be seen with depressed people. They dont think they are able to do something (mental) and therefore they can do it physically. Of course my belief if that the mental and the physical on a ground level are the very same thing so I am not surprised one can effect the other so totally. It works the other way around as well with the physical having impact on the mental - sometimes with dire consequenses.

Dont you also believe this to be true? Se how I managed to incorporate both "belive" and "true" in that last question ;\)

 Quote:
I don't function as a human because of irrational belief in what I do or why I do it. Indeed, nothing is more rational than realizing that life has no meaning other than that which I give it, and anything less than my best effort will lead to dissatisfaction with the life I have made myself.
It's deciding that I want to live life to the fullest and achieve happiness that keeps me from being passive. Not faith in anything.


How could you not have faith in anything but still having faith that life has no meaning? Having faith in you being able to give it meaning? Having faith that you can indeed realize your own vision with your own force? And with this in mind do you have faith in that you have a free will that makes all your descisions possible? Do you have faith that there even is such a thing as a will?

I think it is pretty ridiculous to claim to not have faith or belief in anything - no offence intended. To me that symbolizes that one havent thought things through and one just takes for granted that some of our ideas are true. And as I said above the belief in that we have a will is a prime example. There if no proof for such a thing?


Edited by TheInsane (04/20/10 01:27 PM)

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#37943 - 04/20/10 06:31 PM Re: Prove it [Re: TheInsane]
Doomsage680 Offline
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Registered: 10/01/09
Posts: 111
Loc: NJ, USA
"How could you not have faith in anything but still having faith that life has no meaning? Having faith in you being able to give it meaning? Having faith that you can indeed realize your own vision with your own force? And with this in mind do you have faith in that you have a free will that makes all your descisions possible? Do you have faith that there even is such a thing as a will?"

The onus is on you to prove that life has meaning outside of that which I give it. Without religion, one finds that there is no God to give their life direction, purpose, or "meaning". This is quite simple. If I sit around and do nothing, no outside force will come and "give" my life meaning. The idea that life has meaning without your will is silly and unfounded.

We evolved from animals. Abiogenesis vaguely explains how life came from non-life. No where in this process is there meaning that was "endowed" into our primate brains.

"I think it is pretty ridiculous to claim to not have faith or belief in anything - no offence intended. To me that symbolizes that one havent thought things through and one just takes for granted that some of our ideas are true. And as I said above the belief in that we have a will is a prime example. There if no proof for such a thing?"

You think it's ridiculous to NOT have faith? That I haven't thought things through?

Faith is by definition illogical. If you have faith it is because you are lacking or fabricating logic.
No proof for will? There is a simple explanation for free will- it is a choice, from a limited range of conceivable choices, that one makes. What can you possibly mean by "there is no proof for such a thing?" That's like saying there's no proof that I have thoughts. I know I have thoughts, and I know I put them into action. What you are doing is a logical fallacy by assuming a deterministic world, where our actions are not our own. Not only is there no proof of this, but if it were true it would have no bearing on reality.

Further, I do not have faith that my free will makes my vision possible. I do not have faith that I "Will" succeed, but I have reason to believe I will, simply because I have all ready gotten this far, I am on a clear track to being able to achieve what I want, and because it does not require faith to believe in one's self. I know I exist and I know I am capable of doing things that will get me to where I want to go. You act as though one must know how everything plays out in order to have confidence in their own abilities.

You are the one who claims to have faith that certain beliefs are true. When pressed, you resort to the age old references to advancement in science. I never said we can know everything to be true, but rather that we have reason. This is entirely different from having "faith" that certain things are true.
The Scientific Method does not rely on faith at all. Only reason.

And I know all about Depression. I have overcome it. And it was deciding that I would live my life on my terms, not for others but for my own happiness, and that I would not put emotional stake in things outside myself for identity, that allowed me to overcome it. It's not faith. I can stop living anytime I want and give up, and it was because I didn't have the will to physically kill myself, and because I felt unsure about what came after death at the time, that I decided to make the most of my life now. It has nothing to do with faith.

We evolved and survived by sticking together and starting families to pass on our genes. The things that motivated us to survive are still motivators now- the desire to survive, be happy, communicate and be understood, and be secure with those we care for who care for us- these things aid us biologically in finding happiness, but there is no Objective meaning to life other than that which we give it. I have made it to be happy.
Being a descendant of animals, I know that we can survive and be happy given the freedom to live our own lives. Faith has nothing to do with it.


I ask again, what beliefs do you hold based on faith, other than scientific discoveries(which isn't really faith but rather trust in scientists and their publications, which is reasonable)?


Edited by Doomsage680 (04/20/10 06:34 PM)
Edit Reason: word games consistency
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#37954 - 04/20/10 11:22 PM Re: Prove it [Re: TheInsane]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
There is a large difference between scientific knowledge and faith-based knowledge.

While science is simply "assertions resting upon assertions", it is self-demanding. Any contradiction must be investigated. If we find an easier or more accurate conclusion to support our hypotheses, this new knowledge will promptly displace the old.

Faith, however, has absolutely no method to it. An old image macro comes to mind: the maxim Faith as: "Get an idea, and keep it forever and ignore all contradicting evidence".

 Quote:
Within the modern Satanism community one such aspect is the belief in "higher magic".


Very few people believe that Higher Magic has any supernatural effects-- if they do, they are morons. I blame the general retardedness of the 60's and LaVey's flowery imagination for that little tidbit. Again, we are not them.
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#37957 - 04/21/10 03:07 AM Re: Prove it [Re: The Zebu]
spinosaurus01 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/10
Posts: 14
I have an article you can read, but be open minded yeah?

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/garden.html

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