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#38203 - 05/01/10 03:13 AM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: Severed Soul]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
You are full of shit and an idiot. Neither Mormons nor Jehovah's Witnesses believe in hell. You would know that if you took the time to "know your enemy".

And for the record, I'm not calling you an idiot offhand. "You are already living in a self made hell." Are you serious? What black metal humpfest did you pilfer that line from? They probably leave because they realize that you don't have the mental capacity to handle an actual religious/philosophical debate and don't want to waste their time with you.

I don't blame them.

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#38208 - 05/01/10 12:26 PM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: ceruleansteel]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Hello,

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
You are full of shit and an idiot. Neither Mormons nor Jehovah's Witnesses believe in hell. You would know that if you took the time to "know your enemy".

Here we are yet again looking down our nose at yet another thread yet another new forum member. Predictable if nothing else, but I must point out another flaw here. To simply say Mormons and JW’s do not believe in hell well you are wrong. Some simple light reading proves without a doubt that while hell is not full of fire and brimstone it clearly exists to the modern Mormon as the outer darkness away from god. Yes yet another analogy to the ever present fight between darkness and light.

"The extent of this punishment none will ever know except those who partake of it. That it is the most severe punishment that can be meted out to man is apparent. Outer darkness is something which cannot be described, except that we know that it is to be placed beyond the benign and comforting influence of the Spirit of God-banished entirely from his presence" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:220). ~ Joseph Fielding Smith

Jehovah's Witness on the other hand interpret the bibles Hell to being the grave itself therefore everyone goes to hell when they die. When you are dead you do nothing you are not conscious, yet if and when resurrected those so judged will be thrown into “the lake of fire” to experience the second death. It seems this second death has been explained in “the watchtower” as…

"It means the death from which there is no resurrection. They will be burned up root and branch, as completely gone forever as the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah" ~The Watchtower 1 July 1967, p. 409.

"It is a death from which there is no resurrection. The second death is absolutely distinct from Adamic death, for the Dragon, the Original Serpent, Satan the Devil, never died in Adamic death but he is hurled into the `second death,' the symbolic lake of fire, and so too, are the `wild beast' and the `false prophet.'
"So the `lake of fire' symbolizes everlasting destruction of a person or thing" ~The Watchtower 15 September 1967, p. 571.

You were saying?

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#38209 - 05/02/10 02:54 AM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: ta2zz]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
I'm not sure what bunch visited us one time, but the lady started off with "How would you like to know that in your "afterlife" you are taken care of, never to worry, fret, feel pain, or sorrow again?" I looked her straight in the eye and said, "You need a new opening line, because if death is all you can start with, instead of here and now, I'm not interested. I'm alive now and need to take care of things now, today. Not after I'm dead." and shut the door watching her eyes just about bug out of her head and her jaw sitting on the front porch step. They had visited at a bad time. My husband had just blown out his calcaneus, and was for sure going to be out of work for at least 2 months, provided the docs didn't decide to do more surgery. I wasn't in the mood for lectures of the "afterlife", that's for sure. We weren't visited for quite some time after that.

However, since having just moved this past month, my oldest opened the door to a guy dressed to the "nines" and driving a new Ford SUV with some really pretty shiny rims (oldest said they were some of the highest priced rims he just recently saw at the local tire and rim shop). The guy was pretty light and started right away into his intro when my son just looked at him and told him, "No thanks, I'm Wiccan." He said you could watch the guy deflate and stumbled into telling my oldest to have a nice day. Now mind you, my oldest isn't Wiccan, but it definitely ended that long lecture rather abruptly and listening to that guy stammer while I was working in the kitchen was fairly funny.
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#38214 - 05/03/10 01:42 AM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: ceruleansteel]
Severed Soul Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 32
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
You are full of shit and an idiot. Neither Mormons nor Jehovah's Witnesses believe in hell. You would know that if you took the time to "know your enemy".

And for the record, I'm not calling you an idiot offhand. "You are already living in a self made hell." Are you serious? What black metal humpfest did you pilfer that line from? They probably leave because they realize that you don't have the mental capacity to handle an actual religious/philosophical debate and don't want to waste their time with you.

I don't blame them.


Am I an idiot? No, no I would not say I am. You say Mormons don't believe in Hell. You are wrong, "Hell is a temporary state of terrible anguish and pain for the wicked" that is a quick explanation of Hell from a Mormons view, and yes that quote is from a Mormon. As for Jehovah's, their view of Hell is simply not going to heaven and remaining unconscious in their grave for ever. Just because their view of Hell differs from the norm does not mean they don't believe in it. You tell me to know my enemy, I don't know about you but i don't see people with different beliefs than me as enemies.

""You are already living in a self made hell." Are you serious? What black metal humpfest did you pilfer that line from?" If you found that as stupid I really don't care that is the first thing that came to my mind as my plan was to say something of that sort for a reaction. This response does show your level of maturity though, if you have nothing better to do than insult people online who are only trying to hear about peoples experiences then in my opinion you should trying getting some sort of hobby to occupy your time.

"you don't have the mental capacity to handle an actual religious/philosophical debate"
Maybe I am mistaken but I thought that one of the purposes of this website was to help people become educated in these areas. I am younger than many of the people who are members here so it is quite obvious that my "metal capacity" will be lower, that's why I'm here, to learn.
_________________________
“It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.”- Anton LaVey

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#38215 - 05/03/10 02:39 AM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: ta2zz]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
Heh. You're one to call the kettle black...

Mormons do not believe in hell. The "outer darkness away from god"....the part where they are away from god is the alleged part that is the punishment...there is no torture, no pain, no nothing, just no god. That is not hell. For Mormons it's third heaven...like living a thousand miles away from the nearest town. Sorry, buddy, it's a ten-year hike to the nearest gold-paved street and eternal feast. No admittance if you aren't on the list.

Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT interepret the grave as being hell. They specifically do not believe that hell exists, period. They believe that where the bible says "Hell", it is a misinterpretation of a biblically geographical location outside of Jerusalem which existed as basically a trash dumping site that was kept burning. The bodies of those deemed so terrible that they did not deserve a "Proper burial" were thrown onto the trash heap to burn with the rest of the garbage. JW's believe that if you aren't "IN" with the big guy, your punishment is that you will not "be resurrected when earth once again becomes a paradise". That's it, and that is not hell.

NO Mormon or Jehovah's Witness would ever tell ANYONE that they are going to burn in hell for ANYTHING because neither one of them believe in hell, nor do they believe that their is a place where "souls" burn, either temporarily or eternally.

I'm surprised you didn't try to gloss over the word "symbolic"...or maybe you just don't know what it means...revelations is full of symbolism...and the JW's teach that this is not to be taken literally. They have a whole months-long study course just on the book of revelations. You should check it out sometime. It may enlighten you as to what the fuck you are talking about.


Edited by ceruleansteel (05/03/10 02:40 AM)

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#38216 - 05/03/10 02:40 AM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: Doomsage680]
Wake Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 93
Loc: Australia
I have only been approached a small number of times. One occurrence that I remember clearly was when a mob of them came down my street. You know, the one with the cute little children and the elderly. Anyway, they harassed everyone in sight. Even my Muslim neighbour. My folks and I were leaving the house to go to some family gathering, when they stopped us as we were getting into our car.
They practically pulled us out of it to prattle on. My Dad must have told them to hit the bricks, they eventually buggered off.

Another time they came was quite recently. I was standing just outside of University talking to my mates about something, when a stranger approached us and was trying to hand out some sort of flier. We just stood there looking at him, trying to give him the hint we didn't want a bloody flier, until I gave up and took it. I flicked through it while he stood there waiting for my response.
I read cute lines such as "You need to understand that you are a sinner and the punishment for your sin is death in Hell".
The patronizing text throughout the pamphlet was surrounded by sad and happy smileys.
I would have said something but only one of my friends from that group knows about my being a Satanist, so I just smiled and said thanks and kept smiling at him till he became weirded out and walked away.
_________________________
To love a stranger, one's love must be cheap

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#38217 - 05/03/10 02:57 AM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: Severed Soul]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
If you want to become educated in the area of religious and philosophical debate, you need to stop being a retard when those people knock on your door and let the fuckers in. You don't know shit about the two religions you are talking about, therefore, you could never debate them if the opportunity arose. I spent over a year studying with Jehovah's Witnesses and going to meetings and almost as long with Mormons. Any douchebag with vocal cords can throw some shock value at them. That just makes you look like a fruitcake. To actually debate them and have them question themselves takes a bit of actual effort on your part. You have proven already that you haven't been willing to put forth that effort and using your age for an excuse just makes the whole thing lamer (more lame?).

I promise you, Christianity is not contagious.

No one here is going to hold your hand and teach you how to debate the doorknockers. You need to get off your ass and learn what they believe, then study the shit so you can find where the loopholes are and can then ask them the questions that they are still wondering months after they leave your house. When you can come back and tell me that you have led a lamb astray, THEN I will have a bit of respect for you...maybe.

Not to mention the fact that your post does not say that you want to learn the secrets of arguing Mormons, et al. It says, "hey I freaked out some christians this way. how do YOU freak them out?" Very juvenile.

Their view of hell differs from the norm because THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN HELL.

As an afterthought: It is quite possible that the people you spoke to were Baptist. Though they are not normally the doorknocking type, they do have their pocket-factions that show up from time to time. THOSE are some hell-believing fuckers, and they are fairly impossible to argue because THEY don't even know what they are talking about, so they answer everything with the "God's will" and "faith" and all that bullshit...but the Mormons and the JW's truly believe that if they study hard enough, all answers will be revealed to them.


Edited by ceruleansteel (05/03/10 03:03 AM)
Edit Reason: afterthought.

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#38218 - 05/03/10 03:00 AM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: ceruleansteel]
Severed Soul Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 32
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel

NO Mormon or Jehovah's Witness would ever tell ANYONE that they are going to burn in hell for ANYTHING because neither one of them believe in hell, nor do they believe that their is a place where "souls" burn, either temporarily or eternally.


I can honestly say i did not make up what i posted though you may believe otherwise. My line "they insist on only speaking of how we all go to hell unless we go to their church service and let them save us" is just a summary of what i felt they were pushing on to me, i did not mean to confuse people by making it seem those are always their exact words.

Also i am interested in knowing where you have gotten all of your information on those two religions.
_________________________
“It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.”- Anton LaVey

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#38222 - 05/03/10 05:50 AM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: Severed Soul]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
 Quote:
Also i am interested in knowing where you have gotten all of your information on those two religions.


Like I said before, I studied with them. I have always been of the opinion that the best way to get information is to go to the source...or in this case, allow the source to come to you.

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#38230 - 05/03/10 03:16 PM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
 Quote:
144,000 of them go to heaven. The rest are tormented.


Just to clarify:

They believe that 144,000 go to heaven to become part of what is basically the court of God. Of those remaining, the good ones stay on earth living in Paradise and "proud service to God" (cleaning up the damage that we have done to the earth and taking care of the animals, etc) and the bad ones simply cease to exist. Some will even get sort of a second chance if they happen to be alive when the shit goes down.

They also believe that if you are among the 144K you will know it already. The only so-called holiday they commemorate is the death of Jesus and on that day they pass around sacraments and wine and only the people who are among the 144K can eat and drink of it. I only studied with them for a little over a year so I've only seen this *ritual* once, but no one ate where I was at.

Also, according to them, it was during the time of WWII that Satan took over as full-time ruler of the earth. He'll have control for x number of years before God decides that playtime is over.

I could go on and on...because I've studied with them. Then one day the ladies I studied with happened over and asked me if I had any questions. I put it to them and they told me that when they came back again, they would have the answers. They haven't been back since (almost 8 months now). They do still call from time to time and tell me they are thinking of me and looking for my answers (matter of fact, one called Saturday) but every day that they are searching for the answers to my questions is another day that they are being made to think more like me (the question-asker) and less like themselves (the accepting-on-faith).

Weird beliefs aside, they were nice enough people.

My mission is not to convert anyone else any more than I want to be converted myself. I have my philosophy and it works for me. But I do enjoy pulling that curtain back from time to time, and making others adopt a more rational and logical worldview, as well as a habit of actually using their brain, is something that I take pride in.

Which is why I work with kids. Any person who studies religion as a "tool in the box" knows that (religion) has cornered the market on manipulation and indoctrination. And although the subject matter may be a bit distasteful to some (I am personally neutral), the lessons on HOW it works are there if you are interested in finding them. And knowing how something works helps you understand how it also comes apart, and how to apply both sides of that equation to your own life. If you are learning how to build a house, it's foolish to only read one book on the subject and call yourself a master. NLP, body language, psychology...they are all important in getting your way in the world and making the world what you want, but understanding religion is - I think - just as important because at the end of the day, religion is one of the deep-seated, invisible powers that drives people.

My mission isn't to convert people to Satanism, it's to convert people to THINKERS. The Catholics say that if you give them your child until he is five, he will be theirs forever. They know when your mind is at its weakest and most malleable...and that's why I work with children. Catch them young, teach them how to think instead of simply react or float along, and send them out into the world armed with the ABILITY to affect a change...and once I have done that, I don't have to worry about what choices they will make because I'll be lurking in their little heads forever, guiding them even when I'm gone.

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#38231 - 05/03/10 03:28 PM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: ceruleansteel]
Severed Soul Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 32
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
My mission isn't to convert people to Satanism, it's to convert people to THINKERS


This line of yours really stands out to me. I have "converted" a few people to Satanism by telling them what i feel it is about etc (only when they ask about it). But your line made me realize that i should instead of telling them have them learn on their own.
_________________________
“It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.”- Anton LaVey

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#38234 - 05/03/10 03:44 PM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: Severed Soul]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
People will be most loyal to themselves. And if they figure something out on their own, it becomes THEIRS. With most people, it's just a matter of figuring out how to show THEM how to figure things out.

Don't just hand them a fish...

I come off harsh and *mean* quite a bit around here because we deal with such a high number of people who are not capable of taking the heat, and not capable of thinking before they react. I have to give credit where credit is due: it is clear to me that you have taken a lesson here instead of simply reacting. See? Now I'll be lurking around in the back of YOUR head too. And we've never even met.

THAT, my dear, is how you change the world around you.

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#38236 - 05/03/10 03:51 PM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: ceruleansteel]
Severed Soul Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 32
Loc: USA
Like I have said before I am here to learn. Though a response of yours was somewhat rude I realized that you are a person who has knowledge that I am interested in obtaining. From past lessons I have learned to think before reacting. The things the old me would have said would have likely gotten me banned. People do need to learn how to take insults and not freak out.
_________________________
“It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.”- Anton LaVey

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#38288 - 05/04/10 05:31 PM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: Severed Soul]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
I'd love to have the time to just spend a year studying this or that religion. However, I was looking for a way to end the annoying knocks at the door at a time when I was lucky to get a night rest and my response worked quite well, as did my son's. I don't have time to waste on getting to know another religion. I wasted well over 30 years going through this or that religion prior to acknowledging what I really am. It's easy for me now. I have no desire to claim someone else as an "enemy", just to stop them from annoying me at times when I seem to be fairly busy. Plain and simple. It's not like I went knocking on their door passing on my beliefs or lifestyle to them. For those that have the time, more power to ya. I don't and won't let them in to waste my time.

Personal acquaintances, close friends, now that's a different story. They have however earned that time from me. Huge difference. At least most of them.....
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#38298 - 05/04/10 11:10 PM Re: What do you do when a missionary comes over? [Re: ceruleansteel]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
Heh. You're one to call the kettle black...

You are hardly a new member.

This has become cute complete with a nice back story of how you like to change the world but on the statement that Mormons and JW’s do not believe in hell you’re still incorrect.

Let’s look on the Mormon website LDS.org shall we to see what the official definition for hell is.

Hell

Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. Second, it is the permanent location of Satan and his followers and the sons of perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

If we look at their link to the scriptures we would see this…

Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory.

Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still”.

This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally.

The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness.

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
Mormons do not believe in hell. The "outer darkness away from god"....the part where they are away from god is the alleged part that is the punishment...there is no torture, no pain, no nothing, just no god. That is not hell.

Apparently its is and it appears to be where Satan resides as well. Just because it doesn’t fit your Christian definition of a fire and brimstone hell doesn’t mean it’s not the same place. Fire and brimstone is symbolic for the torture of being kept from god or one of the three heavens.

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
Their view of hell differs from the norm because THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN HELL.

It’s funny that those who disbelieve so have such a definition on their official website.

Now on to the JW’s shall we? What better place to look but their official website as well. Looking at the JW definition of hell on watchtower.org to refute your claims.

Sorry but I’m going to have a little fun with this…

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT interepret the grave as being hell.

“The Bible hell, then, is the common grave of mankind where good people as well as bad ones go.” ~ watchtower.org

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
They specifically do not believe that hell exists, period.

"Since the punishment for sin is death, the fundamental question in determining the true nature of hell is: What happens to us when we die?" ~ watchtower.org

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
They believe that where the bible says "Hell", it is a misinterpretation of a biblically geographical location outside of Jerusalem which existed as basically a trash dumping site that was kept burning.
“Does life of some kind, in some form, continue after death? What is hell, and what kind of people go there? Is there any hope for those in hell? The Bible gives truthful and satisfying answers to these questions.” ~ watchtower.org

“Truthful and satisfying answers to these questions” does not seem much like a misinterpretation to me.

[quote=ceruleansteel]The bodies of those deemed so terrible that they did not deserve a "Proper burial" were thrown onto the trash heap to burn with the rest of the garbage.

The descriptions of Gehenna could quite possibly be why Hell is symbolic of fire and torment but seems to have little to do with official JW definitions.

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
JW's believe that if you aren't "IN" with the big guy, your punishment is that you will not "be resurrected when earth once again becomes a paradise". That's it, and that is not hell.

If this is true why do they go on to say this?

“As does Gehenna, the lake of fire symbolizes eternal destruction. Death and Hades are "hurled into" it in that they will be done away with when mankind is freed from sin and the condemnation of death. Willful, unrepentant sinners will also have their "portion" in that lake. (Revelation 21:8) They too will be annihilated forever. On the other hand, those in God's memory who are in hell—the common grave of mankind—have a marvelous future.” ~ watchtower.org

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
Like I said before, I studied with them. I have always been of the opinion that the best way to get information is to go to the source...or in this case, allow the source to come to you.


 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
I could go on and on...because I've studied with them.


 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
They have a whole months-long study course just on the book of revelations. You should check it out sometime. It may enlighten you as to what the fuck you are talking about.

Maybe you should check the credentials of those whom you study with. From the sound of it they didn’t have a very firm grasp on what their own religions interpretation of bible scripture teaches.

The preceding facts have come from a page on watchtower.org and can be read in its entirety here What Really Is Hell?

Perhaps more THINKING is needed.

Good day

~T~

PS. I purposefully left out your mention that these people are your enemy to see if others picked up on this. Since two others have mentioned it I will now ask why are others with differing beliefs your enemy?
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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