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#38258 - 05/03/10 09:22 PM For those who say anyone can get into the CoS
Severed Soul Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 32
Loc: USA
This thread is for all the people who say anyone can get into the CoS and it has become more of a way for the more elite members to make money.

I think you guys are absolutely right, from what I have heard and researched it truly seems that way.

On the other hand I don't believe that anyone can become an "Active Member" for there is a pretty extensive questionnaire that is reviewed to see if you are fit for being part of the Church.

What I am getting at is, I believe they make it so anyone can become a "registered" member so the church can make some money (which I think is smart of them). While they make it more of a difficult process to become an "Active" member, so that only the elite/worthy people can be part of that.

Let me hear your thoughts on this, whether they be positive or negative. This is just a theory that has dawned over me and I realize that there is still much research to be done.
_________________________
“It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.”- Anton LaVey

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#38263 - 05/03/10 11:00 PM Re: For those who say anyone can get into the CoS [Re: Severed Soul]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
That's pretty much what I've been able to tell. It satisfies all of the dupes who just want a fancy red card to flash around, while at the same time being able to keep any morons an arm's length away.

I'm guessing if you worked at getting into the inner CoS circle you could actually get something out of it, but from what I've seen it's not all too interesting, aside from being a social club for artsy deviants. I already got that in college... (although granted, it cost me a hell of a lot more than 200 dollars.)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#38267 - 05/04/10 12:09 AM Re: For those who say anyone can get into the CoS [Re: Severed Soul]
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
The question faced by the Church of Satan's administrators is this: to what extent is it in their best interests to place value in monetary support of their organization through the influx of new members? Is it preferable, in other words, to have a relaxed membership policy (and therefore more money) or critical meritocratic discernment (and therefore greater integrity)? The simple answer is that the Church's administration seeks to preserve itself as much as its members do, even if (like most individuals) it means willful but avoidable hypocrisy. Some "Alien Elite."

A cursory glance at the Church of Satan's Active Membership application and questionnaire will immediately dispel any illusions that its process of admission is a rigorous or meaningful one. While a requirement for applicants to define Satan and explain their impressions of The Satanic Bible likely does send the lowest stratum of misguided thrill-seekers and boorish imbeciles on their way, laughably irrelevant inclusions like "Which parent do you admire most, and why?", "What are your food preferences?", and "Tell one of your favorite jokes" almost seem deliberately placed to undermine the Church's credibility (which at any rate requires the ε-δ definition of limit to compute—"really fucking small" in non-geek). These aside, the clear weight is nevertheless on quantity rather than quality, and the intellectual mediocrity if not outright stupidity of some of its Active Members (visit Letters to the Devil for confirmation) bears this out.

Inherently dubious as it is to ascribe disproportionate value to numbers rather than the capacities of members (see Christianity), my own opinion is that, if the Church's elitism were as pronounced as the Church claims it to be, membership would be infinitesimally smaller. I might add on a related note that, regardless of one's opinion of the Temple of Set (no, I am not a member), its lengthy application and interview process is indisputably superior to the rubber stamping employed by the Church of Satan. No organization can rid itself of worthless members with complete effectiveness, but I applaud Dr. Aquino and the Temple's priesthood for doing far more to that effect than any other Left-Hand Path organization I know of, and certainly more than Peter Gilmore's lot.


Z.
_________________________
Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#38682 - 05/20/10 09:41 AM Re: For those who say anyone can get into the CoS [Re: Zophos]
111Cal Offline
member


Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
The role and titles of "active" members in the current CoS is a joke. The questionaire that is sent out is not in depth or logical at all. It is basically just a lot of useless information that proves or disproves nothing. The majority of those who become "active" members do so because they know someone else who is an active member.... I.E. they are friends of a friend ALLREADY active and want to "join the club".... does anyone really think that Peter Gilmore or anyone of note in the CoS actually reads through all those and finds some nuggests of wisdom that qualify you as active???

The only ones who are chosen to be "active" are either friends of friends... or those with some skill to contribute... IE someone with a specific career or talent that can be useful to the CoS or one of its media entities......

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#38686 - 05/20/10 09:51 AM Re: For those who say anyone can get into the CoS [Re: Severed Soul]
111Cal Offline
member


Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
 Originally Posted By: Severed Soul
I believe they make it so anyone can become a "registered" member so the church can make some money (which I think is smart of them). .


Back in the last years of LaVeys life, when you sent in your $ and got the red card, at least you were sent other information... flyers for books, contact information for other groups, you were sort of directed in areas to look in order to learn more and purchase items.... I know people who joined in the 1980s and are STILL on mailing lists from back then....

But today, with the internet and the information available so freely... all you get for your (GREATLY INCREASED) $$$$$ is a crappy little card you can print out yourself online.

I dont see why anyone over the age of 13 would think that was worthwhile at all. And I think its more of a reflection of Gilmore and Bartons lack of creativity and inability to profit from their OWN works and actions since LaVeys death....

In well over a decade since LaVey has been gone, the sole contribution of the self proclaimed 2 most important Satanists living today, has been a mediocre books consisting of mainly reprinted articles....

weak....

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#38694 - 05/20/10 12:47 PM Re: For those who say anyone can get into the CoS [Re: 111Cal]
111Cal Offline
member


Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
OOOPS i meant BOOK not BOOKS (the Satanic Scriptures..... full of typos, and consists mainly of reprinted articles from the Black Flame)....
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#38723 - 05/21/10 11:24 PM Re: For those who say anyone can get into the CoS [Re: 111Cal]
Adversary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/19/10
Posts: 93
I think The Zebu said it pretty well.

Think about why you would want to join. So you feel like you belong? Feel like a 'real satanist?' If they were worth something to you, no, if they were worth something, they wouldn't need a "cover charge." If they themselves were something of value, they would want to keep the quality up and the application just doesn't look for that. If you were worth something to them, why the fuck would they need a couple hundred bucks from you? Welcoming you for something you would be worth with open arms would be much more advantageous and profitable in the long run. Fuck a few hundred.
It just doesn't seem rational. They would have more success picking and choosing from a discussion board then they would applicants filling out a questionair for some silly psych-eval.
Mind you, more likely than not, these guys know they only have one life to live. Fuck the ending and the suckers who paid for it, as long as you've got money, right?
To add, but more of a question. Do they bother to even incite on a persons understanding of things like science? That would give a great deal of information on if the person is a person of thinking abilities, has good judgement, is rational, cares to or is even capable of doing their own research or if they are able to educate the self and so on.


Edited by Adversary (05/21/10 11:34 PM)

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#38725 - 05/21/10 11:53 PM Re: For those who say anyone can get into the CoS [Re: Adversary]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Really though, people... if a person wants to spend their money to join The Church of Satan or do anything else with it, it's THEIR money. Now, I'm not saying that anybody SHOULD pay $200 to join the Church of Satan. I've been a Satanist since the early 70's and I have never suggested that anyone join the Church. Proselytization has never been a part of the deal. But what a person does with their money is their business. Period.

If, for example, some of you were told you shouldn't spend your money on weed or booze, there'd be a hew and cry to bring down the heavens. And what does that high cost you? That night out drinking? What do you have to show for it? You might have a DWI ticket... a hangover. But it's what you want to do. You have that choice.

Now, for grins and giggles, I came up with a list of things that people spend their $ on that are frivilous. Their bucks... their choice. We may not agree with them, but unless it comes out of OUR POCKET, we have no place to tell people what to do. A lot of people tend to get down right "Christian" in their ability to tell others what's good for them. If a red card and a sense of belonging is what a person really wants and they are willing to spend their money to get it, more power to them.

Blue Man Group - Venetian
$101.85 Red Zone & Poncho B
$142.00 Blue Zone & Poncho C

Donny & Marie - Flamingo
$103.57 Balcony Seating
$118.97 Main Floor Seating

Cher - Caesar’s Palace
$117.00 2nd Mezzanine
$136.95 2nd Mezzanine
$162.00 1st Mezzanine

Penn & Teller - Rio
$84.85

David Copperfield - MGM Grand
$99.25

KA - MGM Grand (Cirque du Soliel)
$150.50 Standard View: Seats in Second Best Viewing Areas
$116.40 Top Level Side View Seating

O - Bellagio (Cirque du Soliel)
$172.50

Carrot Top - Sahara
$27.05 - $37.95

Dodgers vs Giants - San Francisco
$18 - Nose Bleed Section
$26 - Bleachers (Cost of bad food not included)

Boston Celtics vs Cavaliers
$65.00 - $74.00

Nickelback - $43.00 - $73.00
Pearl Jam - $46.00 - $66.50
Eagles - $30.00 - $230.00
Black Eyed Peas - $49.50 - $92.50
Rush - Mohegan Sun - $70.00 - $90.00
Lady GaGa - $54.00 - $179.50

WWE Over The Limits
$25.00 - $250.00

WWE RAW - Memphis
$24.93 - $73.20

Hell of a lot for a night with nothing to show for it but a memory, but one man's folly is another man's entertainment.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#38726 - 05/22/10 12:58 AM Re: For those who say anyone can get into the CoS [Re: Jake999]
Adversary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/19/10
Posts: 93
I know Jake, and that's fine. You are absolutely right. What is the point in having your own money if you can't spend it on what you want. But that's what disappoints me about things like the CoS. It's just another show. Granted, what is the title Satanism without the opposite.
It's just that, the way I have always viewed it, when you hear something like THE Church of Satan, it isn't something bent on world domination. What I expected and hoped for. As I said above, it's just another show. A season pass. Something to do with your weekend.

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#38727 - 05/22/10 02:04 AM Re: For those who say anyone can get into the CoS [Re: Adversary]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Adversary
As I said above, it's just another show. A season pass. Something to do with your weekend.


Well, it COULD be. It never was for me, but then, I wasn't simply joining to join, and I was there to make a difference. And what better difference could one make than to become something that is the best and brightest of what one could expect (yes, even in the Church of Satan) and thereby affecting change where one is needed? There has never been a mandate for people to do anything once they joined the Church of Satan, and there have always been those who were satisfied to simply get that initial blue card, or take the next step and get the red... but one COULD get involved if they wanted to and was more than just some moke who could fill out a piece of paper.

I started just like everyone else, isolated by geography (hell, I was in Turkey. You don't get much more isolated than that...) and even there I was able to study and to organize and to establish myself as a recognized individual and Satanist, even in the military, where "god, country and apple pie" are the gold standard. As the years went by, and as I learned what the Church of Satan actually was, actually did, and actually meant, my stock rose. But I was under no illusion that I was the be all and end all of Satanists, and I knew that I would have to work and prove myself to get anywhere THERE, just as I did in the military.

Now, I know Gilmore and his regime are some less than stellar representatives of what one would expect from THE Church of Satan, but to accept that that's what is and what must be sells one's own sense of purpose short. There will always be times when you have dynamic and forward thinking leaders... even in the US Presidency, not all leaders were George Washingtons or Thomas Jeffersons. Calvin Coolidge and George W. Bush come to mind. And the devastation that lackluster leaders can cause can indeed be devastating, and the stagnation they inspire could be crippling, IF everyone else gives up on the ideal.

Organizations are like the tides. They ebb and flow, and their power increases and diminishes. That's to be expected. They grow and they fade, but eventually, they meet their goals, as long as they stay the course. That's what the cryptic words of the Nineteenth Enochian Key mean:

"Open wide the gates of Hell! The lower heavens beneath you, let them serve you! Govern those who govern! Cast down such as fall. Bring forth those that increase, and destroy the rotten. No place, let it remain in one number. Add and diminish until the stars be numbered. Arise! Move! and appear before the covenant of His mouth, which He hath sworn unto us in His justice. Open the mysteries of your creation, and make us partakers of the UNDEFILED WISDOM. "

I won't live to see the emergence of Satanism as the dominant philosophy. Who knows, maybe those just now hearing the term will. Maybe it will be decades or centuries in the future. But one thing is certain. It NEVER will if everyone just gives up.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#38730 - 05/22/10 12:27 PM Re: For those who say anyone can get into the CoS [Re: Jake999]
Adversary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/19/10
Posts: 93
No, I should have clarified. The whole weekend warrior thing, it seems, is the way it is now. I believe it was really something more when it was still maturing, as you said when you were doing it.
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#38732 - 05/22/10 01:57 PM WhateverWorksIsm [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
... I won't live to see the emergence of Satanism as the dominant philosophy. Who knows, maybe those just now hearing the term will. Maybe it will be decades or centuries in the future. But one thing is certain. It NEVER will if everyone just gives up.

Arguably it already is [and already has been] the dominant philosophy of the world; it just isn't fessed up as such. Anton had a pet phrase for this: "people playing on the team but not acknowledging the coach". Which is what his rants about hypocrisy were all about - that the world gives lip service to this or that ickypoo religion or moral standard, then goes right on being de facto if not de jure Satanists. [His secondary complaint was that, not acknowledging what they're doing, the majority of people do an inept job of it.]

Back around '72 a member of the Church named Peter McAlpine wrote a charming little book entitled The Occult Technology of Power, which today you can read here. It does a tidy job of speaking to this point. Peter included a quote from the Satanic Bible and also cited it in the bibliography (which is a bib worth chasing down, by the way). If you want a printcopy of his book, Amazon has some available.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#38734 - 05/22/10 03:07 PM Re: For those who say anyone can get into the CoS [Re: Jake999]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Jake999

I wasn't simply joining to join, and I was there to make a difference.


I never quite understood what the purpose was to join the CoS - passive or active member - at least post-Lavey (and some say post-1975 I guess). Todays CoS seems to tell people that they dont really offer anything for its members. I cant quite see the point in joining because according to my estimation everything you can do within the CoS you can do without being a member as well.

Now I realize that you're one of the old-school members so to speak so you may not be able to answer the question in regards to Peter Gilmores CoS but what kind of difference did you strive for and how come you felt it had to be done as a member of the CoS?

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#38735 - 05/22/10 03:11 PM Re: WhateverWorksIsm [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
You and I have seen the hypocritical (arguably ignorantly so) world's operation on the "satanic plane," all the while proclaiming its godliness and purity as they gather around their campfires to sing Kumbayah while plotting the demise of the guy next to them. They reject their nature for that spiritual pipe dream, as most of the world walks around with blinders on, and probably as they should. Unfortunately, we've seen the caretakers of the dream abrogating their responsibilities in the development and implementation of any kind of real Satanic philosophical infrastructure in favor of political posturing, interpersonal game playing and nest feathering.

To some degree, I'll admit that I have to cop my plea in this regard. While I've always maintained my loyalty and my adherence to "the dream," and I've fought tooth and nail for it at times, but I'll always have that self incrimination that I could have done more. I could always have done something... whatever that something could have been. And it's disheartening as hell at times to see the promise of what was degenerate into a simple clique in black that changed a warship into dinghy, pretending it's a yacht.

I still share the dream, and would love (and that is a word I use as sparingly as I can) see it come to fruition. I wonder how long it will take us to achieve it, given the somatization of those who must carry the banner forward... and I'm talking both in the intellectual AND pharmaceutical sense. So many that should be clear eyed and aware have sold themselves out for a few grams of substances or personal delusions!

Years ago, Dr. LaVey wrote a piece that expresses his sense of purpose in the norm. It's inspirational as hell and I have it in my files. I'll post it when I find it.

But to get back on track with people wanting that "red card," I want to post something of LaVey's from the September/October VIII A,S. (1973 for you heathens) Cloven Hoof that shows the impact that it USED to have.

SOCIAL REACTION TO A Church of Satan MEMBERSHIP CARD
To Sergei Mayakovsky

I could devour bureaucracy like a wolf.
I haven't any respect for documents.
Let whatever official papers there may be go to any deities you may need and to their mothers.

But this...

Throughout the day an night move polite officials -- managers who check credentials and ascertain legitimacy.

At cocktail parties and where good fellows get together, embossed cards and slick plastic are passed about, bearing witness to their owner's worldly achievements.

And at times, I too submit my rectangles of identity.

For the man who exposes his Playboy key, as though unzipping his fly, there is a smile on the mouth of the beholder.

For the card of the Scientologist who is Clear -- a withering sneer.

With respect they scrutinize the Greek-lettered pasteboards of academic fraternities, for wisdom is self-consciously in evience as a forty-pound Phi Beta Kappa key.

With eyes that fairly eat up the card, and never ceasing their approval, they take up, as though taking tips, the raised plastic of Diner's Club and Carte Blanche.

They look upon the Rotarian's identity like a goat looks at a billboard.

Their eyes stare at a union card in elephantine dullness.

They muse over the ministerial credentials of the Universal Life Church and seem to say,"What kind of sociological novelty can this be?"

And not turning their cabbage heads and not knowing any feelings, and with unwinking self-consciousness, they peruse the photos on the driver's licenses of blacks and of various other darklings, commenting on remarkable likenesses.

And suddenly, as is scalded, the mouth of the peruser twists...

This is the lady of gentleman gazing upon my red-skimmed passport to perfidy. He eyes it like a bomb, he touches it like a porcupine, like a double-edged razor. He takes it up like a nine-foot snake rattling thirty-six stingers. The knowing eye of his companion has winked, and the air is electrified. The one looks questioningly at the other, and the other at the first. With what chagrin, for at another time and place I could have been flogged or cast out -- or worse.

Because in my hands is a crimson, pentagrammed, horned Satanic sigil.

I could devour bureaucracy like a wolf.
I haven't any respect for documents.
Let whatever official papers there may be go to any deities you may need and to their mothers.

But this...

I take it from my pocket like the replica or a priceless cargo.

Study it. Read it. Envy it.

I... am a Satanist, and this card, my passport, proclaims me a Citizen of the Infernal Empire. a pioneer in a brave new world.

. Anton Szandor LaVey





_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#38738 - 05/22/10 07:18 PM Anton's Personal Card [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
You and I have seen the hypocritical (arguably ignorantly so) world's operation on the "satanic plane," all the while proclaiming its godliness and purity as they gather around their campfires to sing Kumbayah while plotting the demise of the guy next to them. They reject their nature for that spiritual pipe dream, as most of the world walks around with blinders on, and probably as they should. Unfortunately, we've seen the caretakers of the dream abrogating their responsibilities in the development and implementation of any kind of real Satanic philosophical infrastructure in favor of political posturing, interpersonal game playing and nest feathering.

The Church of Satan confronted a terrible dilemma: It had created/found/tripped-over the key to the deification of humanity. But in seeking to present and share it, we began to realize that most people are psychologically and ethically unprepared to handle it. As Thomas Hobbes & Jean-Jacques Rousseau realized, the slave religions and repressive social laws of profane society are really there for that reason; their absence would not lead to a New Age or Marxist paradise, but to a nightmare:

 Originally Posted By: Captain Nemo, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
Think of it. On the surface there is hunger and fear. Men still exercise unjust laws. They fight, tear one another to pieces. A mere few feet beneath the waves their reign ceases, their evil drowns. Here on the ocean floor is the only independence. Here I am free! Imagine what would happen if they controlled machines such as this submarine boat. Far better that they think there's a monster and hunt me with harpoons.

Anton had begun to see this among avowed Satanists as well: You convince someone that he's a god accountable to no one except himself, and suddenly he starts to act like Trelane. By 1974 he had begun to fear that the Church as a "school of Satanism" was inviable, because the wise exercise of Black Magic required more intellectual discipline and practical experience that it could possibly provide. He had himself as his own best example: He was who and what he was in 1966 as the result of decades of hard work and hard knocks, not because he "read a book, joined a group, and got a card".

Thus by 1974 Anton was already starting to close down the Church of Satan as a functioning institution, using its positive accomplishments and reputation to recreate it as an idealized fantasy (the "Movement"), which he could then easily portray purely for propagandistic, image-enhancing, and personal-profit purposes. This wasn't obvious at the time, and it seems to have been a gradual metamorphosis even for Anton himself, but retrospectively both the transformation and the reasoning underlying it are quite clear. The 1975 crisis was the result of a point of incompatibility between these "two Church of Satans": the original one that had been built up since 1966 and the sort of Stepford Wives re-design [with bigger tits].

Concerning all of which poor "Magus" Peter Gilmore is, like a docile Eloi, blissfully clueless.

 Originally Posted By: Jake
To some degree, I'll admit that I have to cop my plea in this regard. While I've always maintained my loyalty and my adherence to "the dream," and I've fought tooth and nail for it at times, but I'll always have that self incrimination that I could have done more. I could always have done something... whatever that something could have been. And it's disheartening as hell at times to see the promise of what was degenerate into a simple clique in black that changed a warship into dinghy, pretending it's a yacht.

The Titanic had already struck the iceberg long before you arrived on deck, and no amount of rearranging the deck chairs would have changed the inevitable. You handled the lifeboats responsibly while you were in charge of them, and no more than that could have been asked of you.

I, on the other hand, was there when we hit the iceberg, and I was too blind and too stupid to see it coming. Otherwise maybe, just maybe, we could have steered around it; and then the Church of Satan you encountered would by then have been unsinkable.

 Originally Posted By: Jake
I still share the dream, and would love (and that is a word I use as sparingly as I can) see it come to fruition. I wonder how long it will take us to achieve it, given the somatization of those who must carry the banner forward... and I'm talking both in the intellectual AND pharmaceutical sense. So many that should be clear eyed and aware have sold themselves out for a few grams of substances or personal delusions!

 Originally Posted By: Conchis, in John Fowles' The Magus
Whenever I see a photograph of a teeming horde of Chinese peasants, or of some military procession, whenever I see a cheap newspaper crammed with advertisements for mass-produced rubbish. Or the rubbish itself that large stores sell. Whenever I see the horrors of the pax Americana, of civilizations condemned to century after century of mediocrity because of over-population and under-education, I see also de Deukans. Whenever I see lack of space and lack of grace, I think of him. One day, many millennia from now, there will perhaps be a world in which there are only such châteaux, or their equivalents, and such men and women. And instead of their having to grow, like mushrooms, from a putrescent compost of inequality and exploitation, they will come from an evolution as controlled and ordered as de Deukans’ tiny world at Givray-le-Duc. Apollo will reign again. And Dionysus will return to the shadows from which he came.

 Originally Posted By: Jake
But to get back on track with people wanting that "red card," I want to post something of LaVey's from the September/October VIII A,S. (1973 for you heathens) Cloven Hoof that shows the impact that it USED to have.

 Originally Posted By: Anton Szandor LaVey
SOCIAL REACTION TO A Church of Satan MEMBERSHIP CARD

I... am a Satanist, and this card, my passport, proclaims me a Citizen of the Infernal Empire. a pioneer in a brave new world.

I remember falling over laughing when Anton gave me that essay to print. He looked at me quizzically, and I said, "Well, that sure doesn't reflect the card you carry!", whereupon he started to laugh too. [Here it is, blown up a bit so you can see the artwork.]
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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