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#38550 - 05/14/10 09:55 PM Emotions and generalizations.
Adversary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/19/10
Posts: 93
I have a question. In a discussion I have been having with several other people, I have recieved fierce opposition to my intolerance toward people of faith (These people all identify as Atheist, just in case this is relevant information).
As far as Satanism is concerned, I am to understand that generalizing is discouraged, in favor to judging the individual, correct? But I cannot help it when it comes to religious people. I claim, without getting to know each and every christian/muslim/what have you, that I hate them. Am I wrong in this "broad generalization," or do others here see it my way? However you side; why?


Edited by Adversary (05/14/10 09:57 PM)

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#38551 - 05/14/10 10:10 PM Re: Emotions and generalizations. [Re: Adversary]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Well, you should, at the very least tolerate them, when in public. Tolerance doesn't necessitate acceptance, it just means that you are putting up with it.

What is wrong with your actions is that you are openly stating, in front of people who obviously frown on such statements, that you hate them. If the opinion of the people in question means that much to you then you would do well to keep such views to yourself when you are in their company. Otherwise stand strong in your convictions with a willingness to accept whatever consequence (be they positive or negative) that they might entail.
_________________________
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#38552 - 05/14/10 10:16 PM Re: Emotions and generalizations. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Adversary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/19/10
Posts: 93
Yes, I understand the tolerance in public part. I don't go around trying to start fistfights or being agressive toward a person with a fish magnet on their trunk. But in discussion, I have no respect for their particular misinterpretation of any "holy" book or their "civil rights." Other than that, I agree with your opinion to take the concequences of my convictions, I just wanted a second opinion from a satanist. Thank you.

Edited by Adversary (05/14/10 10:16 PM)

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#38554 - 05/14/10 11:03 PM Re: Emotions and generalizations. [Re: Adversary]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
My question would be to you, do you have anyone close to you that is religious? Another words, their religious views are their own and they don't try to pressure you with them and that you care very deeply for said person/people? Many times, it bodes us well to just accept what others (those close to us) believe and learn not to discuss religious matters in any way around those same people.

I obviously don't care for religion in many shapes and forms and will do just about anything to avoid discussing it anymore (the ignorance tends to really grate my nerves). However, I have several people in my life currently that believe in their religions strongly and I have learned to just tell them that I just don't believe as they do, with a quiet, patient smile. Because I don't walk around claiming to hate this or that and show a bit of decorum to those same people, they respect my stance and show that respect in my presence. That's what should matter.

Learn to separate the person from their religious speakings and you'll probably be amazed at what that person is really about. Know that to speak of a religious group as a "whole", as in that you "hate Christianity", will automatically put that person on the defense. Why do that unless you really are trying to piss that person off? Usually, even Atheists, have some kind of background knowledge of or experience in this or that religion and here in the US, it will most likely be some form of Christianity. The trappings will usually remain strong with just about anyone even though they may now believe they are "un-believers".

Your words can definitely trigger a reaction of defense, or you can learn to trigger thoughtfulness instead. How you choose your words will make all the difference in the reactions you will receive. In the end though, it's still your choice and to generalize will only keep those around you on the defense. Is that really what you are looking to accomplish?

Sometimes, just sometimes, it's better to dance quietly in the shadows than it is to come out down right slam dancing.
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If only just for today.....

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#38555 - 05/14/10 11:58 PM Re: Emotions and generalizations. [Re: Adversary]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
And therein lies the problem: you can't hope to have any semblance of a discussion if you have no respect for their point of view. If you truly want to have a discussion then you will listen, with respect, to what they have to say; whether or not you agree with it.

I find it rather funny that you call their interpretation of a 'holy' book a "misinterpretation'. Such a claim means that you know the "right" interpretation. From where I am sitting there is no "right" interpretation - they are all delusional - regardless of what interpretation you view is the "right" one. It is worth mentioning that I find the concept of a "Satanist" claiming knowledge of the "right" interpretation of Christianity laughable, at best. Even more funny, to me, is your mention of 'Civil Rights'. The way history is written, no one stands more opposed to the rights others than Christianity.

What it all really boils down to is the fact that you should remove yourself from situations if you are unwilling/unable to conduct yourself in a way that is conducive to the discussions you purportedly seek.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#38557 - 05/15/10 12:24 AM Re: Emotions and generalizations. [Re: Nyte]
Adversary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/19/10
Posts: 93
Well, I have family members that are religious, but not close. Simply as an example, my father, who wont have a relationship so long as I am an "apostate." There are others I know, but conversation is limited seeing as how we are only capable of carrying on shallow conversation, pretty much eliminating any hope of a more in depth relationship. I have no problem leaving beoples beliefs out of a conversation, but again, when it aproaches any depth that pierces surface tension, the conversations tend to go cold.
I find it hard to even mention a recent discovery, as it violates their faith. Mind you I am pretty much surrounded by creationists. The only nonbelievers I know are online.
As for your second paragraph, I leave well enough alone unless the conversation demands it be adressed.
(Sometimes, just sometimes, it's better to dance quietly in the shadows than it is to come out down right slam dancing)
As fun as slam dancing can be I agree.


As for 6Satan6Archist6, perhaps I worded myself poorly, and need to clarify. I don't desire to engage in conversation with these people, I was asking if I was wrong in generalizing my feelings toward religious people based on the reactions I was getting from other atheists.
To agree with your statement that there is no 'right' interpretation. I was insinuating that ALL interpretations are a misinterpretation. I see how I was confusing there though.

(Even more funny, to me, is your mention of 'Civil Rights'. The way history is written, no one stands more opposed to the rights others than Christianity.)
The way I see it, religious people aren't deserving of the same rights as others. In my mind, I don't grant them the same rights as people of a higher rational.

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#38560 - 05/15/10 02:18 AM Re: Emotions and generalizations. [Re: Adversary]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
If you truly didn't desire to engage in these conversations, you wouldn't have. Don't respond, just think about that.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#38563 - 05/15/10 04:33 AM Re: Emotions and generalizations. [Re: Adversary]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
You are giving people too much power over your own life.
Why waste time and energy even mentioning it?
You place yourself into situations knowing full well the end result.

If you would shut up and smile, you would get what you want from your family, and they would play nice. If that is what you desire. Most families/parents just want to be lied to and that way they don't have to think or worry about you.

You can not explain anything to certain people in regards to their religious beliefs. It's all a matter of faith for them. Honestly, a lot of them need the security in their lives that such a faith gives them. Let them have it, sheep are easier to corral.

Hate is such a strong word, let it go. I just don't give a fuck, let them believe as they want.

In the end, Satanists are a minority in school, jobs, countries, and etc. Why give anyone knowledge about your personal beliefs if they can fuck with your livelihood.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#38572 - 05/15/10 10:49 AM Re: Emotions and generalizations. [Re: Adversary]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio

 Originally Posted By: Adversary
Well, I have family members that are religious, but not close. Simply as an example, my father, who wont have a relationship so long as I am an "apostate." There are others I know, but conversation is limited seeing as how we are only capable of carrying on shallow conversation, pretty much eliminating any hope of a more in depth relationship. I have no problem leaving peoples beliefs out of a conversation, but again, when it approaches any depth that pierces surface tension, the conversations tend to go cold.
I find it hard to even mention a recent discovery, as it violates their faith. Mind you I am pretty much surrounded by creationists. The only nonbelievers I know are online.
As for your second paragraph, I leave well enough alone unless the conversation demands it be addressed.
(Sometimes, just sometimes, it's better to dance quietly in the shadows than it is to come out down right slam dancing)
As fun as slam dancing can be I agree.


You're missing 2 of the most important parts of my post. You've skimmed over it and hung on to the last sentence more than anything else. First, you need to learn to just state the very basic obvious, you don't believe as they do. Use words that don't put them on the defense automatically. Your use of hate for a generalization of religious fanatics and stating that they don't or shouldn't have the same civil rights shows that you want your opponent (in this case of debate) on the defense. Why put that much time and energy into putting them on the defense like that and then trying to justify your own thought process as to why you feel like that? You want open discussion, let them wonder what makes you really tick instead of just throwing out all these harsh words or the first thing that comes into your mind.

When I stated, "Sometimes, just sometimes, it's better to dance quietly in the shadows than it is to come out down right slam dancing.", I meant, keep some things to yourself. You have found a forum that will allow you to openly discuss your new findings/discoveries. Use it wisely and quit letting yourself be led into a position of attack with those around you that don't understand at all. They hold onto their trappings from previous experiences, as have you and both sides, if you will, are trying to pressure the other into believing what they believe. Leave it alone, don't give them ammo that you don't want them to use. Let them watch you dance quietly and they'll begin to question things themselves. Some will be brave enough to ask what makes you dance. Learn to address them with decorum and tact, even respect and you'll be amazed at how the discussions will turn around for you, since that seems to be what you are seeking by even discussing religious people.

 Originally Posted By: Adversary
As for 6Satan6Archist6, perhaps I worded myself poorly, and need to clarify. I don't desire to engage in conversation with these people, I was asking if I was wrong in generalizing my feelings toward religious people based on the reactions I was getting from other atheists.
To agree with your statement that there is no 'right' interpretation. I was insinuating that ALL interpretations are a misinterpretation. I see how I was confusing there though.

(Even more funny, to me, is your mention of 'Civil Rights'. The way history is written, no one stands more opposed to the rights others than Christianity.)
The way I see it, religious people aren't deserving of the same rights as others. In my mind, I don't grant them the same rights as people of a higher rational.


You don't know the correct interpretations of religious texts any more than they (those directly around you that have no formal training in religious texts) do, so your judgement of "all interpretations are misinterpretations" is just as messed up as theirs. Your own trappings are showing quite well. Were you a Christian before you read about Satanism, by chance? You're generalizing your statements about religious people, the same way Christians generalize all "un-believers". You're debating parallel with your debate opponents. Is that really what you're trying to achieve?

You're not in a position to grant anyone anything pertaining to their civil rights. You can keep that feeling of "they are beneath me." in your mind but that doesn't make it so. You need to remember that you control only your own life and your own civil rights. Once your civil rights interfere with someone else's, you lose your own. You draw that line all on your own and when you choose to cross it, the result could be your own defeat. Keep that in mind.
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If only just for today.....

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