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#38561 - 05/15/10 02:18 AM Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system
Severed Soul Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 32
Loc: USA
http://www.thebatt.com/2.8482/kentucky-should-not-ban-satanism-in-prison-1.1212214

(if you google this you will find tons more articles)

Kentucky State Prison System has banned Satanic ceremonies within prison. It's something I have recently come across. This happened back in the early 2000's. I can't find anything about this being over with. I think its pretty fucked that they have gotten away with it because they feel that religion threatens their security.

If you know any updates on the current status of this let me know or just let say what you think about this.
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#38562 - 05/15/10 02:27 AM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: Severed Soul]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
#1: if the people had not been stupid enough to either: A: Do what they did, or, B: Get caught for doing what they did, this wouldn't be an issue. However, they did do it and they did caught for it. That being the case they have to deal with the consequences. Being that they are Wards of the State, they are subject to all the sanctions put upon them.

Not that I agree with this decision, but if these people truly want to perform a ritual they can and will. If you TRULY want to do something, nothing can stop you except for yourself. Well, that and the laws* that govern our world.

*Laws as in the laws of physics etc. Not the laws that govern the individual person's day-to-day.
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#38573 - 05/15/10 11:38 AM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
I look at it this way, they fucked up and are now completely governed by the laws of the systems they have gotten themselves in to. The state obviously decided that Satanism wasn't a need. Then again, how many Satanist do you know that go out in public and perform rituals, etc.? Does the ban in prison really change the fact that they are Satanist, if they really are?

Would I like a ban such as this in my life? Nope, but I also have that freedom. They lost theirs.

Does these type of things really bother you Soul? What would you do to change the situation?
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#38588 - 05/15/10 08:44 PM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: Nyte]
mountaingoat Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 471
Loc: Colorado
I find it disturbing that Satanism seems to be singled out in the ban. That being said, knowing that what you believe and do is misunderstood and feared, publicly flaunting this seems a bit like shitting in your bed.

Furthermore, I find that more often than not the most powerful sorcery comes from individual secrecy by a Satanist who knows that their powers to shape and direct can't be hindered. Group rituals can never produce anything useful when carried out in a situation of whispers and furtive glances.
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#38590 - 05/15/10 09:17 PM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: Severed Soul]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Two points I'd like to make.

#1 This is Kentucky we're talking about here. Smack-dab in the Bible Belt. Is this ban really all that surprising?

#2 I don't care to have Satanism associated with anyone stupid enough to have been convicted of a crime. A smart Satanist would have either A) been smart about what he/she did and not gotten caught, or B) not committed a crime that warranted jail time in the first place.

Inmates insisting on their rights to practice rituals only end up sounding like a bunch of whiny pussies. As far as I'm concerned, when you're in jail, you HAVE no rights, especially ones as frivolous as practicing your religion. Keep that shit to yourself!
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#38591 - 05/16/10 01:50 AM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: Severed Soul]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1722
Loc: New York
I disagree with the previous posts for the most part because:

There are circumstances where an individual might end up in prison who doesn’t deserve to be there. I personally knew someone who went to jail for six months because they hit someone in self defense and caused some injury to that person. The person that was hit was the son of a state trooper, while the guy defending himself was just an average guy who couldn’t afford a decent lawyer. In at least that case, stupidity is not so much the reason the person was incarcerated as much as a “bum rap” was.

Satanism is classified as a valid religion. The armed forces has recognized it as such, which is a branch of the government (US).

If it is a valid religion then banning it in prisons is in my opinion a violation of constitutional law. Prisoners do not lose their constitutional rights while incarcerated, at least that’s what I have heard from relatives of corrections officers whom I work with. They still have the right to sue, and are protected (kind of) by the system.

I have no qualms against Satanism being outlawed in prison, if all other religious practices are outlawed as well.

At least we don’t blow buildings up, yet I’m almost certain that Muslims who do, are still allowed to have worship services while incarcerated even though they evidently pose a much greater risk in the world then we do.

Further more, if we are alright and nonchalant when people we do not care for are banned from practicing Satanism where other religions are accepted and allowed, then we have no cause to complain if our religion is banned in the general community at some point, and we our selves are forbidden from practicing it. I would go so far as to say in this case, that if we have such a “fuck them” attitude, then we ourselves can go “fuck ourselves,” because we don’t deserve our “Right” to free thought either, since many who fought for individual freedom in the past did not do so for Satanism, but for the rights of every individual to practice what ever religion or belief system that they wished. Therefore if we do not care about the rights of others, then we can’t expect that others should care about our beliefs and freedoms if and when those liberties are threatened.
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#38610 - 05/16/10 05:14 PM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: Severed Soul]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2512
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
I've been asked to drop back in and comment on this thread because (a) I was the Church of Satan's Priest in Louisville 1970-72 and (b) I've been extensively involved in subsequent years with government religious toleration issues.

In 1970-72 I founded and headed the Church's Nineveh Grotto, based in Louisville but with a statewide membership. Despite Kentucky's image as a "Bible Belt" state, we were always treated courteously and tolerantly by both government and populace. I was regularly invited to speak and panel-participate at local high schools, universities, and the Louisville Baptist Seminary, as well as in the public media. And of course Nineveh even helped to make a local Satanism horror movie, which Louisville thought was quite a bit of fun [even if the flick itself was a honker].

The State of Kentucky officially recognized Satanism as a religion in a formal court hearing granting me a license to solemnize marriages in the state. I was of course required to produce documentary evidence of my affiliation and Priestly office, which I did. It was rather an entertaining court hearing!

Important to this were those two requirements: that there be a formal religious institution and that there be a formal clergy thereof. Generally state and federal governments want to see this, to provide some sort of standard as to whether a claimed religion is serious and substantial. Otherwise all sorts of people could argue all sorts of legal waivers on the grounds that "it's their religion", as indeed many have tried to do, with causes from marijuana to Scientology (which was not originally a "church" until it realized there were benefits to claiming such).

I am guessing that the Kentucky prison policy reflects this: that if anyone can claim any religion ad hoc just to cause inconvenience and tension, it's an abuse of the First Amendment. If a group of formally-affiliated inmates had asked for private accommodation, I rather think it would have been provided.

Here is the official Defense Department policy concerning religious toleration in the U.S. Armed Forces. Note that it is not absolute, but that there is reason behind the restrictions. For instance if Sikhs in the Army were permitted to grow beards, they couldn't wear gas masks, and so forth. Is mainstream Protestant/Catholic/Judaic religion institutionalized? Sure. Is that arguably unConstitutional under Separation of Church & State? Sure. Going to hold your breath until the Courts enforce this? Take a very deep & long breath.

I should perhaps note that the question of whether Atheism is a religion in the First Amendment sense is still up for grabs. I think it's generally accepted that individuals have the right to not have a religion, but that's not the same thing as claiming that this "absence of belief" enjoys or should enjoy the same exemptions and protections that a belief in a supernatural presence does. The distinction being that if one's conscience, morality, behavior, etc. are to some extent responsible to a higher entity, then the state should not interfere with that. [And of course this tension has a long history over the centuries.]

So this comes round again to whether Satanism is a religion [as a theism] or a materialist philosophy [as an Atheism]. We've discussed that here before, and I see no need to do so again here. I'm merely pointing out that in contexts like this current Kentucky one, if the individuals affirm that they believe in the existence and influence of Satan, their argument for First Amendment toleration will probably resonate more than if they were to say that "we're Satanists, we want to do the rituals in the Satanic Bible, but we don't really believe in Satan".

That's about all I think I can add, so hasta la vista, baby.
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#38614 - 05/16/10 07:37 PM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 860
Loc: Nashville
According to religionfacts.com, “scholars and Buddhists alike tend to describe Buddhism as atheistic in the sense that it denies an eternal creator God, while recognizing its theistic and devotional elements”. Yet Buddhism is commonly understood as a religion. It seems to me, then, that theism isn’t a necessary component of religion.

As you said in a recent post, appreciation and emulation of what Satan stands for transcends belief in him as a literal being. The view of Satan as a revered example of rebelling against the status quo and forging one’s own path in life is, in my opinion, what Satanism – theistic or atheistic – is all about.
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#38620 - 05/16/10 09:18 PM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: William Wright]
Adversary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/19/10
Posts: 93
The thing here is, with religions, they feel they HAVE to perform whatever ritual be it baptism, eating Saltines, what have you for their eternal stupid life, then let the baby have his bottle. If a 'satanist' feels he needs to do some ritual with others to get something extra, then he is weak or uneducated, and in need of crutches. Fuck 'em.
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#38622 - 05/16/10 10:56 PM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: Asmedious]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
I disagree with the previous posts for the most part because:

There are circumstances where an individual might end up in prison who doesn't deserve to be there. I personally knew someone who went to jail for six months because they hit someone in self defense and caused some injury to that person. The person that was hit was the son of a state trooper, while the guy defending himself was just an average guy who couldn't afford a decent lawyer. In at least that case, stupidity is not so much the reason the person was incarcerated as much as a “bum rap” was.


That's not always the case though. Not every criminal is getting a "bum rap" and I don't know about you, but I don't really want every criminal claiming "the devil made me do it because I worship him...", either. There's enough bad things strewn about when it comes to Satanism with the media, I don't see the need to help the Christians along in their gossip to add numerous criminals to Satanism.

 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
Satanism is classified as a valid religion. The armed forces has recognized it as such, which is a branch of the government (US).

If it is a valid religion then banning it in prisons is in my opinion a violation of constitutional law. Prisoners do not lose their constitutional rights while incarcerated, at least that’s what I have heard from relatives of corrections officers whom I work with. They still have the right to sue, and are protected (kind of) by the system.

I have no qualms against Satanism being outlawed in prison, if all other religious practices are outlawed as well.


And you and I know that's a huge PIPE DREAM. The Christians would have a conniption fit if they couldn't "turn someone else's life around through Christianity and finding God."

I'm also curious, does anyone know if this jail is privately owned but paid by the state? If it's privately owned, there's not a damned thing anyone can do about what they will and won't allow anyway.

As for Constitutional Rights, I don't believe that a criminal thinks about anyone else's Constitutional Rights when they commit their crimes. How many crimes don't involve violating someone else's rights of any kind? Can you honestly think of any? Right off the top of my head, I can't.

 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
At least we don’t blow buildings up, yet I’m almost certain that Muslims who do, are still allowed to have worship services while incarcerated even though they evidently pose a much greater risk in the world then we do.


No, instead there are kids out there claiming to be Satanists while shooting up their entire school. The lesson is that not all Satanists shoot up people and not all Muslims blow up buildings.

 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
Further more, if we are alright and nonchalant when people we do not care for are banned from practicing Satanism where other religions are accepted and allowed, then we have no cause to complain if our religion is banned in the general community at some point, and we our selves are forbidden from practicing it. I would go so far as to say in this case, that if we have such a “fuck them” attitude, then we ourselves can go “fuck ourselves,” because we don’t deserve our “Right” to free thought either, since many who fought for individual freedom in the past did not do so for Satanism, but for the rights of every individual to practice what ever religion or belief system that they wished. Therefore if we do not care about the rights of others, then we can’t expect that others should care about our beliefs and freedoms if and when those liberties are threatened.


My question is, do you need a separate place (meaning outside of your own home) to worship while being a Satanist? They didn't ban Satanic materials like books, or state that they couldn't be Satanists. According to everything I read, they just aren't going to be giving them a place to hold weekly services (someone correct me if I am wrong). They weren't allowing them any materials for these services anyway. Interesting, because I, as a Satanist, don't attend weekly service of any kind. I understand a theistic Satanist might want a service, but with only 2 in attendance?

And after all that, are you going to write a letter to that prison and try to get those services reinstated or are you going to let it slide? Do you think the inmates will join in to make sure they keep their services going? Just curious. Ya know, if it really means something to them, they can sue, per your own words. Right?

Now, if they had banned them from being Satanist all together, that would be a whole other ball game....

Tid bit for thought.....How can you force someone into not being a Satanist?
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#38624 - 05/17/10 12:37 AM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: Nyte]
Doomsage680 Offline
member


Registered: 10/01/09
Posts: 111
Loc: NJ, USA
"As for Constitutional Rights, I don't believe that a criminal thinks about anyone else's Constitutional Rights when they commit their crimes. How many crimes don't involve violating someone else's rights of any kind? Can you honestly think of any? Right off the top of my head, I can't."

As a libertarian, I just said "WHOA".

There are hundreds of thousands of arrests annually for minor possession and use of marijuana.
Prostitution is illegal nearly everywhere in the US. Gambling is illegal if the "House" is making money.

These might be considered crimes, but if two parties freely associate for mutual benefit, should our law enforcement really be wasting its time stopping them, when there are surely more dangerous criminals with whom they should be occupied?

Some might argue that Arizona cops are chasing down Latinos with cracked windshields and traffic violations in search of those Dam Illegals, who committed the crime of leaving their hell-hole countries in search of work. (Not to minimize the other issues)

These are our tax dollars at work, making sure teenagers can't get weed. God forbid they sit on their couch all night and eat too much.

http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7042


Edited by Doomsage680 (05/17/10 12:46 AM)
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#38626 - 05/17/10 01:22 AM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: Doomsage680]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Doomsage680
"As for Constitutional Rights, I don't believe that a criminal thinks about anyone else's Constitutional Rights when they commit their crimes. How many crimes don't involve violating someone else's rights of any kind? Can you honestly think of any? Right off the top of my head, I can't."

As a libertarian, I just said "WHOA".

There are hundreds of thousands of arrests annually for minor possession and use of marijuana.
Prostitution is illegal nearly everywhere in the US. Gambling is illegal if the "House" is making money.

<a href="http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7042" target="_blank"><img src="http://norml.org/share/marijuana_arrests_chart.gif" alt="US Marijuana Arrests" width="679" height="445" border="0"></a>


Around here, unless you're busted with a ton of drugs, you get jail, probation and/or a fine, not prison. Prostitution generally doesn't warrant prison either. If you're in prison for drugs, chances are you've probably been linked to something more than drugs, like a murder or having been part of a rape crime, or as I stated above, a TON of drugs. Same with the prostitutes that have ended up in prison.

Someone gambling doesn't warrant prison time, either.

Bear in mind, the article was discussing a prison, not jail. There is a difference in the crimes and whether one ends up in jail or prison (where these inmates currently are). I should have worded my question a bit better. Can you think of a crime that would land you in PRISON (not jail) that doesn't involve violating someone else's rights of any kind?
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#38633 - 05/17/10 07:07 AM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: William Wright]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
According to religionfacts.com, “scholars and Buddhists alike tend to describe Buddhism as atheistic in the sense that it denies an eternal creator God, while recognizing its theistic and devotional elements”. Yet Buddhism is commonly understood as a religion. It seems to me, then, that theism isn’t a necessary component of religion.

As you said in a recent post, appreciation and emulation of what Satan stands for transcends belief in him as a literal being. The view of Satan as a revered example of rebelling against the status quo and forging one’s own path in life is, in my opinion, what Satanism – theistic or atheistic – is all about.


The very first thing that was brought up when I attended classes on the science of religion at the university was the problem of defining religion. We went through a lot of the most common definitions made by different theologists, philosophers and so forth. Not a single one could put into words an exact criteria for what we collectively regard as religion without either excluding a lot of what is generally considered religions or including many movements that we really do no consider to be religious. So the cause of confusion has its ground in that there is no generally acceptet definition on what a religion is.

Furthermore the word and study of religion has its basis in the study of Christianity. The word was used exclusively for the Christian faith and only later was it applied to other movements which also poses a problem that western people try to define non-western, non-christian religion with a word that originally was used exclusively for the western mind and Christianity.

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#38635 - 05/17/10 10:40 AM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: TheInsane]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
It's been said before; most true Satanists (yes, I used the elitist qualifier "tr00" here...) wouldn't have a reason to end up in jail, especially in the US. However, as a pure matter of civil rights, Satanism should not be banned in prisons if other religions are given free exercise.

Texas prison chaplain Donald Kaspar said, "We've looked at the satanic bible and are convinced that what it advocates would put our prisons at risk. One of their tenets is revenge: if somebody hurts you, hurt them back."

Of course... how should we decide if Satanism should be permitted? Ask a christian!

I wonder how safe they feel with their prisoners adhering to THIS book:

 Quote:
'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'With a great throng of people
I will cast my net over you,
and they will haul you up in my net.

I will throw you on the land
and hurl you on the open field.
I will let all the birds of the air settle on you
and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you.

I will spread your flesh on the mountains
and fill the valleys with your remains.

I will drench the land with your flowing blood
all the way to the mountains,
and the ravines will be filled with your flesh.

-Ezekiel 32


And I haven't even gotten to the genocide and child rape yet. But of course, this is a subject all of you are familiar with.

In all honesty, I don't see this ruling lasting very long. Someone's going to get the ACLU or some first amendment group on their asses and after some legal haggling they'll meekly retract the prohibition and say, "Oops, sorry; hope you weren't offended."


Edited by The Zebu (05/17/10 10:41 AM)
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#38637 - 05/17/10 12:32 PM Re: Kentucky banned Satanism within prison system [Re: The Zebu]
Adversary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/19/10
Posts: 93
Yes, they allegedly took a look at TSB. Apparently they didn't bother to look at the bible, like you said, or the Koran.
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