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#3937 - 02/07/08 08:46 PM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: Sven]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Sven
That is very interesting, I haven't heard of finding the "I". Which is why I should ask before assuming, do you mean "I" in terms of dualism and something along the lines of Descartes theories?


I am not familiar with Descartes' writings.
"I" as in the "I" you are refering to when you say something like "I am hungry." "I" as in the part of you which is aware of itself.... even when your consciousness is altered or changed as in sleep, dream states, or on drugs, your "I" or that part of you which is aware of itself is still unchanged... even when you get amnesia and forget everything that you are including your name, that "I" is still unchanged and remains the same and continues to be aware of itself. When you speak of yourself you call yourself "I". The question is who is this I, where is it, and how did it become? When we speak we never think about what words we will say next, they just come out. So when the "I" speaks, is it really speaking, or is it filled with what will be spoken and it just relays it? This I is unknowable. You are an illusion you take for granted because you are exposed to yourself everyday of your life. seeing a body for your whole life you associate yourself with this deteriorating body and ignorantly or arrogantly state that you will die some day, and that death is the end of it all. When in reality you are incomprehensible, without beginning or end. Your entire past is a mystery... everything that you are now is a mystery... and your future is a mystery... all that you know is that you ARE. How can you then assume to know that you will not exist or that death is the end of it all, when you don't even know 1% of your own nature? The old Taoists once said that "God" (Tao), Nature, and Man are the same thing just expressed in different forms; like water can express itself as Vapor, Liquid, and Ice; and to know one of these three is to know the others.


Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (02/07/08 09:01 PM)
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#3938 - 02/07/08 09:07 PM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Sven Offline
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Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 46
His theories were along the lines of the Martix movies. Where your mind is tricked into thinking that this life is real, when its just a illusion and the "real you" is projecting yourself through into this flase reality. As for Descarte he believed we where all being tricked by a demon into thinking this world is real, when really your just in a dream.
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#3941 - 02/07/08 09:24 PM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: Sven]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Sven
His theories were along the lines of the Martix movies. Where your mind is tricked into thinking that this life is real, when its just a illusion and the "real you" is projecting yourself through into this flase reality. As for Descarte he believed we where all being tricked by a demon into thinking this world is real, when really your just in a dream.


Ah... i see. I would agree half with him; the demon part is an easy scapegoat to explain something he didn't understand maybe?

In my opinion i don't believe that we are tricked or fooled by anyone or thing. I believe that it is a matter of focus... of what we tune into?

When you take really good acid or DMT and you see a white rabbit take you to a different world or universe, you are really going nowhere, is just that your AWARENESS has shifted its focus.

Likewise with dreaming. You close your eyes, you lose consciosness (even when you are unconscious you are still aware of yourself... and your subconscious mind always is conscious and aware... but you dream... and during your dream something strange happened... something is missing from your mind... you forget the "real world" and for a moment the dream world is the real world... but still you have not gone anywhere in reality - you are in your bed - your awareness... the "I" has just shifted focus... it is tuned into a different "station"... like changing the station on a television set... so it's not the question of "Where do we go when we die?" Because where are we in the first place?

We have hundreds of radio frequencies in the airwaves, just because you have your tuner set to just one station does not mean others don't exists, or that you exist in the frequencies in the first place??
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#3942 - 02/07/08 09:46 PM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
Lucid Dreaming Sven, check it out. It when you teach yourself how to wake up and become fully aware of yourself in your dreams.

For me it happened naturally by accident. I dropped out of High School, and for some reason I get these terrifying nightmares of being back in school.

One time I was dreaming I was in class again taking a test. Everyone was quite and doing their test. Then I started to look around to copy off someone which I did often in school. But then I realized that I dropped out of school. I started to panic. I was thinking to myself "Wait a minute! What the hell am I doing back in school? I dropped out? How did I get back!?" In the dream I said that out loud and everyone stopped and looked at me.

I got up and said to everyone that I'm not suppose to be here, and the teacher told me to sit down. Then I looked around, I looked at the student right in front of me and said - this is a dream... your not a real person, everyone started laughing; but it was at that moment that I "woke up" in the dream. I was fully conscious in the dream; i knew deep inside that I was laying in bed, but the dream felt very, very real, as real as waking life.

Everyone was silent and just watching me. I was thinking to myself - this is fucking crazy. I leaned over to a girl and touched her hair, softly stroking it down, and I said to her quitely - "what are you?" I stood there for a moment absorbing the very strange sensation, and opened my eyes, and I was in bed.

I can't explain the feeling or how real it was. Later I learned to wake myself up in any dream, but only for a while. I had a dream once I was at the beach; I stopped and noticed something out of the ordinary - there was a tree floating in the sky. I stood there in the dream (these are called triggers, which you use to wake yourself up in the dream) and said, wait... trees can't float in the sky, this is a dream... the minute you realize its a dream something strange happened, it becomes less hazy and more realistic. The beach now looked and felt like a real beach; I knelt down and picked up some sand and let it fall thru my fingers slowly thinking to myself how much I can't tell the difference, just in awe; and i opened my eyes, and my real hand was in front of my face.

There was this other dream i had. It was a nightmare. I was being chased by a big dog (I'm scared of dogs) in a dark forest. I was screaming an running and I ran into a tree head first; but it didn't hurt; this work me up in the dream, and i immediately turned around and willed the dog away, and it disappeared. The dream was still hazy. so i wondered just how real I could make it. I made the sun come up and just willed it to become as real as possible. The grass felt real, like normal grass; and i softly touched the tree bark in awe because it felt like real tree bark.

These are simple and petty examples; but I can't explain the feeling when you have come to the realization that the reality your live in could just be a realistic illusion you tune yourself into?
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Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


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#3944 - 02/07/08 10:04 PM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I've often tried to use lucid dreaming, but so often my dreams are lucid nightmares, and they're so horrible and terrifying that I become caught up in them until the last second, when my consciousness (or sanity) finally can't take it anymore, and I wake up.

The worst scenario for me is to get caught up in such a dream (my dreams can have plots, even though they twist and turn) that I drag myself out of it, only to get pulled right back into it where I left off, when I fall back asleep. That's happened on several occasions. One of them I had to mentally drag myself out of, like a tug of war, and I kept getting pulled down. Frustrated, I actually yelled out loud, and forced myself to stay awake for a good hour to be sure the dream was cleared from my mind.

Also, I've noticed another thing about my dreams. They seem to play out in 3 parts, or acts. Sometimes they're connected to each other in a semi-cohesive way blending in with the next so that I don't even notice, other times they're like 3 separate acts from completely different plays. Does REM sleep have multiple cycles? That's the only explanation I can come up with.
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#3945 - 02/07/08 10:08 PM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: Nemesis]
Sven Offline
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Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 46
REM supposedly happens four to five times a night forbthe average person. REM has been proven to be connected to lucid dreaming and flase awakeniungs. When you enter a LD state that occurs when the sleeper enters REM sleep with unbroken self awareness directly from a waking state.

Edited by Sven (02/07/08 10:48 PM)
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#3946 - 02/07/08 10:36 PM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Sven Offline
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Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 46
Yes lucid dreaming is a very interesting subject I've been fastanated by it for years. That, and flase awakenings are very interesting yet one thing has always remained the same for me. That is I always wake up. I won't deny that the mind can create anything when there is a demand for it. Which has always made me wonder with LD and FA , and that is can you get stuck.

Basic dreams are a way for people to deal with stress, life, and other various trying emotions. Yet when I have had very intense sessions of both situtations of struggling. I think Nemesis put that struggling experence perfectly as a tug of war between your dream state and your awakened state. So I have always wondered if it was actually something were you could not wake up from or is all just a dream.

Also sort of like lucid dreaming is when your awake or at least aware of the dream; yet it's still a dream. No matter how much you scream and yell the "you" in the dream goes on unaffected. Its like watching a movie of yourself yet you are not the director and you have no say. Its like lucid dreaming but you can't contorl anything and your point of veiw is third person.


Edited by Sven (02/07/08 10:37 PM)
_________________________
A poor fool indeed is he who adopts a manner of thinking for others!
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#3955 - 02/08/08 10:42 AM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: Sven]
Noc Offline
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Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 76
Loc: Delaware
Have any of you had a dream and then like a week or two your dream happen just like it did in your dream?
I had that happen to me about 4 years ago and the dream I had was so real to me when I woke up it took me a few mins to realize it was a dream.
But 2 weeks later it was like a vision hit me one day while driving and it was like I was inside of my dream, everything happened in sequel right down to the place I ended up parking the people I passed along the way everything.
It was an experience that I will never forget, and I still to this day can't explain how or why I was able to dream what was going to happen to me in the future and then two weeks later it played out exactly how I dreamed it.
The best way to can describe my entire experience was like watching a movie and then playing the part in the movie.

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#3971 - 02/08/08 09:55 PM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: Noc]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Noc
Have any of you had a dream and then like a week or two your dream happen just like it did in your dream?
I had that happen to me about 4 years ago and the dream I had was so real to me when I woke up it took me a few mins to realize it was a dream.
But 2 weeks later it was like a vision hit me one day while driving and it was like I was inside of my dream, everything happened in sequel right down to the place I ended up parking the people I passed along the way everything.
It was an experience that I will never forget, and I still to this day can't explain how or why I was able to dream what was going to happen to me in the future and then two weeks later it played out exactly how I dreamed it.
The best way to can describe my entire experience was like watching a movie and then playing the part in the movie.

You know what, this has never happened to me unfortunately, I wish it did, but...

I very often get normal dreams, and at some near future point in real life I see or encounter the same environment or place I once saw in a dream. For example I had a dream about being in a desert and in the desert was this abandoned rusted factory of some sort, by a dried up lake. The dream didn't strike me as anything unusual, but one day as I was driving out to Las Vegas i turned onto a small road and I saw a familiar patch of desert with a building in the distance. I got a de ja vu feeling and rove to look at it, and it was the same abandoned building I had seen and it was also by a dried up river bed. This happened so much to me that every time i dream of a place or surrounding I often expect to encounter it soon, and 80 percent of the time I do. But it only happened with places for me?? Like what the hell is that good for, or what's it mean?? but its just eerie, and makes you question the realism behind reality.
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Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


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#4081 - 02/11/08 09:02 AM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Sethsryt Offline
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 20
Loc: The Netherlands
I have had dreams which in the near future came to be real.
The first I could remember was a toy car of Lego. I dreamed about it before my birthday, at my birthday I got that toy car. Exactly the same one that I dreamed about.

Some more recent ones were a scene in a bus, a guy having his hands on two chairs in it lifting himself and swinging around. In my dreamed it seemed to be weird, yet after the dream I saw it in "real life".
Also one which influenced me in taking actions. Something I wanted was not evaluable for a long time. Then on a night I dreamed about getting it from a shop, I also encountered a pigeon
with just one claw. I went to the shop where they had it in my dreams, and got it. On the way back I encountered the same pigeon.

I also had dreams predicting deaths, heartbreaks and other sad business. Dejavu, but then with the memory of when it happened earlier..

Reality is a strange thing, can we say for certainty that something does not exist?

It is like, we create tools in this reality to prove this reality. That is like creating tools in your dreams to prove that your dreams are true.

Second, I am new on this forum. Hell-o-Satanas to you all.
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
 Originally Posted By: Noc
Have any of you had a dream and then like a week or two your dream happen just like it did in your dream?
I had that happen to me about 4 years ago and the dream I had was so real to me when I woke up it took me a few mins to realize it was a dream.
But 2 weeks later it was like a vision hit me one day while driving and it was like I was inside of my dream, everything happened in sequel right down to the place I ended up parking the people I passed along the way everything.
It was an experience that I will never forget, and I still to this day can't explain how or why I was able to dream what was going to happen to me in the future and then two weeks later it played out exactly how I dreamed it.
The best way to can describe my entire experience was like watching a movie and then playing the part in the movie.

You know what, this has never happened to me unfortunately, I wish it did, but...

I very often get normal dreams, and at some near future point in real life I see or encounter the same environment or place I once saw in a dream. For example I had a dream about being in a desert and in the desert was this abandoned rusted factory of some sort, by a dried up lake. The dream didn't strike me as anything unusual, but one day as I was driving out to Las Vegas i turned onto a small road and I saw a familiar patch of desert with a building in the distance. I got a de ja vu feeling and rove to look at it, and it was the same abandoned building I had seen and it was also by a dried up river bed. This happened so much to me that every time i dream of a place or surrounding I often expect to encounter it soon, and 80 percent of the time I do. But it only happened with places for me?? Like what the hell is that good for, or what's it mean?? but its just eerie, and makes you question the realism behind reality.
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#4103 - 02/11/08 08:29 PM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: Sethsryt]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Sethsryt
I have had dreams which in the near future came to be real.
The first I could remember was a toy car of Lego. I dreamed about it before my birthday, at my birthday I got that toy car. Exactly the same one that I dreamed about.

Some more recent ones were a scene in a bus, a guy having his hands on two chairs in it lifting himself and swinging around. In my dreamed it seemed to be weird, yet after the dream I saw it in "real life".
Also one which influenced me in taking actions. Something I wanted was not evaluable for a long time. Then on a night I dreamed about getting it from a shop, I also encountered a pigeon
with just one claw. I went to the shop where they had it in my dreams, and got it. On the way back I encountered the same pigeon.

I also had dreams predicting deaths, heartbreaks and other sad business. Dejavu, but then with the memory of when it happened earlier..

Reality is a strange thing, can we say for certainty that something does not exist?

It is like, we create tools in this reality to prove this reality. That is like creating tools in your dreams to prove that your dreams are true.

Second, I am new on this forum. Hell-o-Satanas to you all.
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
 Originally Posted By: Noc
Have any of you had a dream and then like a week or two your dream happen just like it did in your dream?
I had that happen to me about 4 years ago and the dream I had was so real to me when I woke up it took me a few mins to realize it was a dream.
But 2 weeks later it was like a vision hit me one day while driving and it was like I was inside of my dream, everything happened in sequel right down to the place I ended up parking the people I passed along the way everything.
It was an experience that I will never forget, and I still to this day can't explain how or why I was able to dream what was going to happen to me in the future and then two weeks later it played out exactly how I dreamed it.
The best way to can describe my entire experience was like watching a movie and then playing the part in the movie.

You know what, this has never happened to me unfortunately, I wish it did, but...

I very often get normal dreams, and at some near future point in real life I see or encounter the same environment or place I once saw in a dream. For example I had a dream about being in a desert and in the desert was this abandoned rusted factory of some sort, by a dried up lake. The dream didn't strike me as anything unusual, but one day as I was driving out to Las Vegas i turned onto a small road and I saw a familiar patch of desert with a building in the distance. I got a de ja vu feeling and rove to look at it, and it was the same abandoned building I had seen and it was also by a dried up river bed. This happened so much to me that every time i dream of a place or surrounding I often expect to encounter it soon, and 80 percent of the time I do. But it only happened with places for me?? Like what the hell is that good for, or what's it mean?? but its just eerie, and makes you question the realism behind reality.


Cool. Lief's a trip. Welcome.
"War Won Je?"
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#4106 - 02/11/08 08:35 PM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Sethsryt Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 20
Loc: The Netherlands
Life might be a trip.
One day you might die, open your eyes have a gigantic headache.
"Damn I will never use that shit again."

Thank you for your warm welcome, be forewarned though, I do take the subjects quite literary and serious. One day I might end up in a heated discussion of how the word "Poop" was invented. Who knows?

But tell me, what is the meaning of the word "Je" in "War Won Je"?
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC

Cool. Lief's a trip. Welcome.
"War Won Je?"
_________________________
Be free, Be crazy, Be Demon.

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#4127 - 02/12/08 03:47 PM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: Sven]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
Current teenagers in high school are now considered to be the first generation to become completely dependent on technology.


They are also the first generation to be likely to live shorter lives than their parants.

Personally I think you can currently choose your death. It's called Euthenasia. Unfortunately the Christian majority seem to frown upon people choosing to leave life with dignity, instead wanting them to linger on machines or in pain until it happens 'naturally'.

At this point in my life I would probably choose the avarege lifespan. Although, Tat2zz once asked me if given the choice, instead of dying would I let my 'soul, personaity, self' be loaded onto a computer. I replied in the affermitive, but it does make one think.

As for finding the 'I', maybe the whole is more than the sum of the parts? Maybe the I isn't hidden in one spot, but caused by the whole?

Zeph
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#4148 - 02/12/08 08:00 PM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Sven Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 46
I personally think I'd choose a prolonged life. I've always found the idea of being able to "choose your death" interesting, even more so as a Atheist. The point of many theistic religions is to provide people with a comforting idea of an afterlife. Yet, if one believed that life is lacking that comfort of an afterlife or a God to hold your hand and make it all better, then does death still become that comfort?


Things in life become very sugarcoated for teenagers I think. A combination of technology, food, and economic comfort, in my veiw is a factor in the declined expectations in the many different areas of teenage life.



Edited by Sven (02/12/08 08:09 PM)
_________________________
A poor fool indeed is he who adopts a manner of thinking for others!
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#4150 - 02/12/08 08:07 PM Re: Prolonged life or natural death? [Re: Sven]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Originally Posted By: sven
Yet, if one believed that life is lacking that comfort of an afterlife or a God to hold your hand and make it all better, then does death still become that comfort?


For me it does. If you are in pain and you die and there is nothing, then no more pain = comfort. You don't have to believe in heaven, god or any other 'afterlife' to be comforted by death.

I'm in no rush to die, but due to my health, I have needed to discuss, think about and make peace with the prospect of it happening sooner rather than later. It's not the dying that is scary, it's the way you die that is.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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