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#38849 - 05/27/10 01:54 PM Nietzsche... where to start?
SubtleSatanist Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/10/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hello,

somewhat new to this forum, I've read the Satanic Bible and I wanted to start reading some Nietzsche but I'm not sure where to start. Any suggestions, and why? Thanks.
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Veritas > Unitas > Caritas.

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#38850 - 05/27/10 03:34 PM Re: Nietzsche... where to start? [Re: SubtleSatanist]
Phobos Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/04/10
Posts: 50
Loc: France
Obviously, I would suggest Thus Spoke Zarathustra: the death of God, the "Übermensch", the usual. You could also start with Twilight of the Idols which is maybe easier/faster to read. I have no English translation of these books but let me quote a few lines in French :

"Fabuler d'un autre monde que le nôtre n'a aucun sens, à moins de supposer qu'un instinct de dénigrement, de dépréciation et de suspicion à l'encontre de la vie ne l'emporte en nous. Dans ce cas, nous nous vengeons de la vie en lui opposant la phantasmagorie d'une vie 'autre' et 'meilleure'."

Attempted translation:
"Confabulating about another world than ours is nonsensical except if you suppose that some denigrating, depreciating and suspicious instinct towards life eventually takes you over. In this case, you take your revenge on life by opposing some phantasmorical 'other' and 'better' life to it."
_________________________
La République ne reconnaît, ne salarie ni ne subventionne aucun culte.

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#38863 - 05/28/10 05:15 AM Decree Against Christianity [Re: SubtleSatanist]
School Bully Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 142
Loc: Melbourne
Decree Against Christianity
by Friedrich W. Nietzsche

Declared on the day of salvation, on the first day of the Year One.(September 30, 1888)

War to the death against depravity: depravity is Christianity.

First proposition – Every type of anti-nature is depraved. The most depraved type of man is the priest: He teaches anti-nature. Against the priest one doesn't use arguments, one uses the penitentiary.

Second proposition – Every participation in divine service is an assassination attempt on public morality. One should be more severe toward Protestants than toward Catholics, more severe toward liberal Protestants than toward the orthodox. The criminal character of a Christian increases when he approaches knowledge. The criminal of criminals is consequently the philosopher.

Third proposition – The accursed places, in which Christianity has hatched its basilisk eggs, should be razed to the ground and be, as vile places of the earth, the terror of all posterity. One should breed poisonous snakes there.

Fourth proposition – The sermon on chastity is a public instigation to anti-nature. Every display of contempt for sexual love, and every defilement of it through the concept "dirty" is original sin against the holy spirit of life.

Fifth proposition – With a priest at one's table food is pushed aside: one excommunicates oneself therewith from honest society. The priest is our chandala – he should be ostracized, starved and driven into every kind of desert.

Sixth proposition – One should call the "holy" story by the name that it deserves, as the accursed story; one should use the words "God," "Savior," "Redeemer," "Saint" as invectives, as criminal badges.

Seventh proposition – The rest follows therefrom.

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#38932 - 05/30/10 10:22 PM Re: Nietzsche... where to start? [Re: SubtleSatanist]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I recommend the following reading progression for someone who wants to read and gain an insight into Nietzsche and the ways his work has been interpreted by others.

1. Ecce Homo – this is Nietzsche’s autobiography. A very good starting point.
2. Twilight of the Idols – one of his last works. A good overview of his thinking
3. The Anti-Christ – in my opinion his most sustained and harsh critique of Christ.
4. The Will to Power Notebooks – There is so much information here and he touches on pretty much everything which interested him.
5. Nietzsche: Philosopher, Psychologist, Anti-Christ by Walter Kaufman – Kaufman is an excellent Nietzsche scholar. A great book
6. Nietzsche and Philosophy by Gilles Deleuze. Excellent stuff. Difficult, but brilliant.

Zarathustra is the great affirmation, Beyond Good and Evil the great critique, and The Genealogy of Morality the work which more than any other inspired thinkers like Foucault and Deleuze. These works, in my opinion, should be read later. They are the masterworks of Nietzsche.

Nietzsche’s earlier books such as Daybreak, Human All Too Human and The gay Science etc. are all valuable as well. I really enjoyed Daybreak.

Also Heidegger’s mammoth two volume work on Nietzsche is tremendous stuff. About 1000 to 1200 pages all up. Be warned, this is tough stuff to get into!

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#39243 - 06/11/10 10:15 AM Re: Nietzsche... where to start? [Re: SubtleSatanist]
Mindmaster Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Detroit, MI
Nietzsche... Don't...

He's good for his time, but has been superseded. You can read him if you enjoy classics, but for any practical reason really a waste of time. Great for his time, but not so great given the arbitrary translations at this point. Progressive thought left him in the dust the minute Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson came around. The issues of his time are valid if you buy into his model of the psychology of society, morality (and religion by extension), and his ideas of slaves/masters. Read _Prometheus Rising_ by Robert Anton Wilson instead and you will save time and have a really illuminating moment and save a few bucks.

If you like to consider yourself a 'master' you may feel better reading Freddy's stuff but it is baked in Victorian era stereotypes and assumptions. If you want to destroy every misconception of yourself and others and learn to reprogram yourself into a truly superior being (instead of reading about it) you may like my suggestion much better. :P


Edited by Mindmaster (06/11/10 10:18 AM)

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#39244 - 06/11/10 11:07 AM Re: Nietzsche... where to start? [Re: Mindmaster]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm not quite sure if your suggestion here was sarcasm or if you really meant it.

I'm a curious person so I downloaded "Prometheus Rising". I admit that the publisher already made me frown but after reading the first chapter, and a bit through the second, I can't say I am impressed. I generally dislike books that include exercises. Not because I dislike doing the effort but mostly because such books are directed at an audience that can't be called intelligent. If a hypothesis is explained thoroughly, there is no need for an exercise to make people see what is said. It's a bit like having to make a drawing when explaining something to kids. Even besides the slight annoyance of exercises and too light manner of content, nothing even slightly mind-blowing was addressed which was quite disappointing for a book which, as was predicted by you, out-classes Nietzsche. I have hopes that when reading further, which I'll surely do, I'll encounter the phenomenal part at one point. I admit however that my hopes are pretty low.

Don't take this too hard but I don't think many "New Falcon" publications are up par with most philosophical works, no matter how dated their style is. And people that consider them as such, often lack in understanding what most philosophical works are essentially about.

D.

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#39246 - 06/11/10 12:46 PM Re: Nietzsche... where to start? [Re: Diavolo]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1753
Loc: New York
I’ve read most of Anton Wilson’s work a few years ago, and found it entertaining and affirming, but not enlightening. As with most modern philosophers who write about free thinking and such, I didn’t find much in his writing that I didn’t at least know the basics of.

I can see how a newer initiate to Satanism would find his work “enlightening,” but those of us who have been around for sometime, will likely not find anything of great importance by reading him.

I do not mean to take anything away from him, because as I said, I did find his books entertaining and greatly enjoyed reading them. Most of the time I would read a book in one or two sittings.

Wilson didn’t so much come up with anything new, as much as put a fun modern twist on older ideas.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#39249 - 06/11/10 01:20 PM Re: Nietzsche... where to start? [Re: Asmedious]
Mindmaster Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Detroit, MI
Wasn't really what I was getting at. Just that Nietzsche is rather dated and modern humans only incidentally fit his molds. Would honestly say Wilson's work is more of a synthesis and a suggestion not to take yourself too seriously. There are two ways to approach problems primarily that being modification or elimination. Nietzsche sees these things as being reformable basically, and Wilson sees them as needing the flush based on recent failures to move society away from them. You can reform shit and it is still fundamentally shit in every way even when it comes in different shapes and sizes. That's really the sort version of the difference in the writing...

And, Wilson will never be popular as Freddy due to the fact that Wilson says as much of the entire ball of wax. That doesn't jive with the modern programming so well. Lots of people have a lot riding on this puppet show and would hate for you to see the strings.

But, don't take me too seriously either. I'm just one guy which is capable of seeing the shit in many situations whether that be Anton LaVey's writings, Ayn Rand's, or some other Satanic prophet. People forget these people are people and are ready to jump on someone personally in the middle of an intellectual debate. If that's the case, fuck yourself, if not how's it going? :P



Edited by Mindmaster (06/11/10 01:30 PM)

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#39251 - 06/11/10 03:06 PM Re: Nietzsche... where to start? [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
What is remarkable is how many times Nietzsche appears, either in name or parts of his ideas in this book. I guess he wasn't too outdated when this book was written.

I've been skimming through the book some more and can't say I discovered anything which I haven't read before and more than often have seen explained much better. It's like Asmedious said: older ideas in a newer format. At some level it reminds me of that newagey period where people took some basics and started going wild upon them. Sadly too often they were so lost in their going wild that not much valuable was left.

D.

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#39255 - 06/11/10 10:26 PM Re: Nietzsche... where to start? [Re: Mindmaster]
School Bully Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 142
Loc: Melbourne
 Originally Posted By: Mindmaster
I'm just one guy which is capable of seeing the shit in many situations whether that be Anton LaVey's writings, Ayn Rand's, or some other Satanic prophet.


I don't think that's true. From where I'm sitting, you just sound like the garden variety opininated dumbass - or to quote the great sage Harry Callahan: Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

If you're going to make glib sweeping statements, be prepared to back them up, instead of sounding like some brain-dead devotee or like some whining school brat who complains that because he doesn't 'get' algebra, that makes mathematics a load of shit.

si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses - "If you had kept your silence, you would have stayed a philosopher". Without being adequately prepared, never put yourself in a position where you're likely to get a good kicking. I cannot stand stupidity.
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#39257 - 06/12/10 01:38 AM Re: Nietzsche... where to start? [Re: SubtleSatanist]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: SubtleSatanist
somewhat new to this forum, I've read the Satanic Bible and I wanted to start reading some Nietzsche but I'm not sure where to start.

Before diving into his original texts, there are some gentler introductions. I would first recommend at minimum a basic overview of philosophy in general (ancient and modern) - it's hard to see where Freddy is coming from otherwise.

The following (cover designs may vary) is quite a basic overview, I recommend it or similar as a first step, to be supplemented by meatier commentaries and original texts:



For his original works, try Beyond Good and Evil. His first text "The Birth of Tragedy" is shorter but not representative of his more developed thought. Those fluent in German may prefer to read Nietzsche in his original language - certain nuances may be lost en route to English.

If reading the traditional way becomes too tiresome, if you visit http://www.librivox.org you can find free audio versions of various original Nietzsche texts to listen to - in both English and the original German. I personally like to have recourse to as many forms of media as possible. For a truly 21st century medium, there are also some good videos on YouTube explaining Nietzsche's philosophy, including this featuring Alain de Botton (may have regional restrictions).

Meq

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#39267 - 06/12/10 07:10 AM Re: Nietzsche... where to start? [Re: SubtleSatanist]
Gattamelata Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 45
It is not strictly neccessary - but I generally reccomend learning the German language before reading Nietzsche. His mastery of that language and his nuanced expressions tends to get somewhat lost in translations.

Moreover; a thorough reading of philosphy pre Nietzsche may be of value. With ’philosophy’ I include here as diverse thinkers as Augustin, Joseph de Maistre, Machiavelli and Schopenhauer.

As for his works, I generally suggest starting with the epic Zarathustra and then chew through the follow-ups, i.e 'Beyond good and evil', 'On the genealogy of morals', 'Antichrist', 'Twilight of the Gods', the notes known as ’Will to Power’.

The chap above ranting on about Nietzshce beeing ’outdated’ seems to have a rather simplistic view on philosophy in general and Nietzsche in particular. Giving you Leary & Wilson when asking for Nietzsche is like handing you a cucumber when asking for a gun. They are two different things.

A sidenote: while Nietzshce is a pleasure to read, he is by no means an easy philosopher to pin down into pre-fit categories. He is not easily reduced to simplistic frames of reference, although there has been no shortage of attempts to do just so.
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Society : an inferno of saviors. —Emil Cioran

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#39284 - 06/12/10 04:07 PM Re: Nietzsche... where to start? [Re: School Bully]
Mindmaster Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Detroit, MI
I absolutely love how you left that key line "But, don't take me too seriously" off. Why, I can grab random text out of any post and make the guy before me say what I'd like. Whatever, who falls for this shit anyway?

My statements aren't broad or sweeping, and if you just view Nietzsche as some regular person like anyone else instead of some deity you can see that he is not terribly important. He's just a guy who wrote rather well, but gradually grew into a complete loon for the last twenty years of his life. Any idea that he supposedly would inform me of personally I arrived at long before reading his work. And, honestly I'd reached the similar conclusions as he had when I was probably thirteen. A fair bit of thought can put you in the same frame mind that's why I don't consider him that important.

Like all people with mental dementia for awhile these people feel "illuminated" and since they are just slightly out of sync can observe their world just differently enough that they see some of mechanics at work. Their initial efforts are illuminating only in that they can reveal some truth through this de-synchronization process. It take a matter of time but gradually they backslide and start creating their vision of utopia since the real world starts outright rejecting them. Nietzsche was obviously a highly learned person in his time so he had a better foundation to his initial plan, but results are results. The rejections are obviously noted in his life history... he literally crumbles away in a very personal and real sense. He loses everything: his wit, his love, and his life systematically. His 'philosophy' couldn't save him so why should you pay it any mind? Sure, his problems could have been genetic or whatever... but, who really cares? He lost his life long before he lost his mind.

I rather take wisdom from someone who is actually or was successful at some point in time. Nietzsche is not that guy and never was. Just my two cents... But, don't misinterpret any of that as Nietzsche hate... He'd be valuable if you couldn't already figure out what is up and he's about as close to Satan as you can get in academia. He's also valuable if you can't think that your viewpoint is valid without a historical crutch, or you need to hear someone else parrot your own conclusions to you so that your ego doesn't somehow think that it may be guilty of being independent. You know what? I'm cool with all that... whatever floats your boat. I can piss on Satanic thought, my own thought, and anything in between because I want the truth and don't care what's set on fire or buried in the process. My ego doesn't like it, but fuck it.

I don't give Nietzsche points because he's stating the obvious at all times for anyone that has the smallest pang of counter-culture in their being. As a result of this my approach to reading selections is exactly opposite of the fan-boi's seeing no reason to read what is adequately summarized elsewhere. The relevant bits of Nietzsche are already free pickings in _The Satanic Bible_.

The reason people read Ayn Rand or Nietzsche after reading _TSB_ has nothing to do with how wonderful those authors are. They're trying to prove the context of _TSB_ by finding enough voices who agree with them to mentally prove the words to themselves instead of basing these decisions on their own accord or in relation to opposing views and picking 'the best of it'. You want to know more about Satanism? Read something that has completely nothing to do with it aka Christian Science Monitor, Tao Te Ching, basically anything contrary to your lovely views at the time. See if you still think all it's so great, or you see flaws. After all if your ideals are so valid then they can take ten rounds in the ring can't they? That's my approach...

Thus, my opinion isn't like everyone you normally meet... it's better and more relevant because it's not tied into or identified with any of this shit you call life, philosophy, Satanism, or whatever. It logically puts me at odds with entrenched fundies in any group, but fuck 'em. I walk my own path and leave a trail of fire. You believe all opinions are the same because yours isn't spectacular, a rather poignant self-observation I might add... Us trailblazers will keep on doing our thing!

- Mindmaster


Edited by Mindmaster (06/12/10 04:08 PM)

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#39289 - 06/12/10 10:25 PM Re: Nietzsche... where to start? [Re: Mindmaster]
School Bully Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 142
Loc: Melbourne
 Originally Posted By: Mindmaster
Thus, my opinion isn't like everyone you normally meet... it's better and more relevant because it's not tied into or identified with any of this shit you call life, philosophy, satanism, or whatever. It logically puts me at odds with entrenched fundies in any group, but fuck 'em. I walk my own path and leave a trail of fire. You believe all opinions are the same because yours isn't spectacular, a rather poignant self-observation I might add... Us trailblazers will keep on doing our thing!


I wish I could believe that but I can't, because you have already said you can't be taken too seriously. So why should anyone then take anything you say seriously at all? We teach others how to treat us and you only have to see the resident house gimp Ta2zz to know how true that is. You claim you are an original thinker? Well, come on, let's see some evidence of this claim? Is it only cheap talk and amatuer illusion?

Don't get me wrong. I wasn't trying to put you down because you broke rank. I don't mind the iconoclasm. I, myself, am most scathing when it comes to Ayn Rand, whom I consider little better than a cult leader. No, what I'm more interested in is this view that mankind is irredeemable; that it can never be made better than it is now. That man is a fallen creature incapable of evolving. This is what I want to know. But this needs to be carefully explained. And you let the genii out the bottle, so don't try to tell me it's all a bit of a joke. Do you take responsibility for what you have said or not? Do we take your views seriously or treat them as a pretentious joke? Do you get off on the contempt of others? Tell us.

To recognise Nietzsche's importance is not to deify him. Nietzsche was a radical thinker and a great prose stylist. He was also a gifted poet, which is necessary to take into consideration whan reading Zarathustra. A master of style and substance, his mastery of language goes far to help explain his impact on Satanic thought.

Part of his devilish attraction is that he is not easy to objectively interpret. He writes in a deceptively informal structure. He understands irony and uses it well. He has an intimacy of tone (which I agree later degenerates into meglomania) and manifold shifts of mood and emphasis. He is perhaps better thought of as a moral critic and essayist, like Voltaire, than a philosopher.

This is his value to Satanic thought.

But to understand him as a philosopher, it is first necessary to understand Schopenhauer.

Peace out.
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#39296 - 06/13/10 02:06 AM Re: Nietzsche... where to start? [Re: School Bully]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: School Bully
We teach others how to treat us and you only have to see the resident house gimp Ta2zz to know how true that is.

Oh bully mentioning me in threads that I haven’t even participated in, you should stop you are turning me on… Maybe it’s just the thought of all that leather…

Like so many other things in life some people are just born naturals at what they do. I myself never read much of Nietzsche’s works honestly they bore me. My path started by watching reading and learning about people like PT Barnum, WC Fields and listening to the words of Frank Zappa.

Is there knowledge to be learned by reading the words of people many years’ dead of course there is. But I’ll tell you what the “natural” will be out there in the real world enjoying him/herself forging their own Satanic path while some are busy studying thinking they are learning how to be a better Satanist.

The names Nietzsche, Rand, LaVey among others are too many times spoken of as writers of scripture that must be absorbed by all following this path.

To learn about life and mankind one only needs to open his/her eyes and look around.

I wrote to this point without reading anything here, yet after reading some of this I admit interesting thread.

Oh and yes bully, I must not forget to thank you for pointing me to Masterminds words. It seems he and I may have similar thoughts.

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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