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#39139 - 06/07/10 04:01 AM Obama's Mis-Step
cadfael Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 15
Loc: Tn.
Oh the world Loves this guy, so I see thru newscast and independent reporting. Hell Jack van Impe has almost called him the anti- christ. I just donot know how to digest him yet, 2 years into his presidency, and it is almost like fantasy. If you go to american talk shows, they are giving him the sly. He is an out right failure, but know one picks up on this. He has failed in everything. How do you test a man's character...during crises...the gulf will be the biggest ecological disaster in history.
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#39144 - 06/07/10 05:04 AM Re: Obama's miss step [Re: cadfael]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Oh My Fucking Evil God is English your native language????

You need to seriously use spell check and re-read your post before you approve them. Your writing is beyond ridiculous.

The world does not love him that much anymore. He has become demanding, and doesn't give in. His speech when he received the noble peace prize showed this.

Israel is not happy (BFD) because he didn't take their side after they killed some people during the blockage event earlier in the week. They even killed an American citizen, shot him a few times too. In the face, back of the head, and some body shots.

There were so many people still asking to see his birth certificate that Hawaii had to pass a law to stop it because it was out of control. Plus all the bullshit from the tea party idiots.

He got the healthcare bills passed and made into law.
He pushed for wall street reform and that passed.
He pushed for a woman to be on the supreme court and that happened.

He is pushing for BP to pay for all the devastation that is happening in the gulf. He is also pushing for an investigation into the whole mess. He has been down south more than twice since it happened. I believe that is already more times in a shorter period than it took Bush to visit Louisiana after Katrina.

So what exactly do you think he failed in?

Morgan
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#39164 - 06/07/10 05:19 PM Re: Obama's miss step [Re: Morgan]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Even though this thread was started by a person apparently with only half a brain, I must say there are things I can say he has failed in. He and his party have failed to be aggressive in these reforms. He gives in too much to the Republicans and sometimes special interest groups. The administration has let a bunch of watered down bills pass through that may be potentially worse than what was originally intended. As president, it is his responsibility to get people behind him and to push through the reform he feels is best, and I don't think he's succeeded in that, at least not fully.

I think he is doing far better than our last president, and is doing better than I believe the opposition would have done. I just think he could do better.
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#39184 - 06/08/10 09:55 AM Re: Obama's miss step [Re: Lucifer Rising]
TV is God Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
As far as I've heard (which I intentionally avoid politics as much as possible.) he's not pushed for any kind of censorship. If this is incorrect please let me know.

I think politics is a complete joke and not worth the effort fighting for your side in the debates they feel worth debating.
But censorship is something very real and very important and as far as my opinion goes the only issue of any importance in American politics. (Yeah I know, isreal, oil, jobs, healthcare, global warming, blah blah blah)

Hillary was for censorship of everything. I'm not sure about McCain but that Christian nation shit gets me real worried about censorship. So as far as I'm concerned Obama's doing great.

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#39189 - 06/08/10 02:05 PM Re: Obama's miss step [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising

I think he is doing far better than our last president, and is doing better than I believe the opposition would have done. I just think he could do better.


OK, I'll bite, doing far better at what?
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Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#39195 - 06/08/10 04:35 PM Re: Obama's miss step [Re: Fnord]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN

 Originally Posted By: Fnord
OK, I'll bite, doing far better at what?

To compete with Bush you don't have to do much, unless you're one to consider fucking things up as a success.

Obama has done well to keep a good public image. You'll never hear Obama say something like the following.

 Quote:
"Goodbye from the world's biggest polluter."
George W. Bush, in parting words to British Prime Minister Gordon Brown and French President Nicolas Sarkozy at his final G-8 Summit, punching the air and grinning widely as the two leaders looked on in shock.
Rusutsu, Japan, July 10, 2008

Just by not saying shit like this, Obama is doing better than our last president in both public and foreign relations. He's gone to the gulf I believe 3 times already since the oil spill. The same could not have been said about Bush when Katrina hit. I'm unsure if he had even gone once within the same time period, though I do think he made it down once. The reforms Obama's been able to push through were so watered down that none resemble any sort of change that the people expected or wanted. Yet he's kept the masses mostly appeased, with the exceptions of those that think he is the Antichrist. The only people that seem to have liked Bush, well they're the ones that are saying Obama is the Antichrist now.

I'd give Obama about a "C+", maybe even a "B-" almost entirely due to the consequences of his mostly positive public image. He'd do better if he were able to get something passed that looked anything like what he proposed originally. I suppose he's doing something, but I'm unsure if the watered down legislation will do more harm than good so it is rather hard to judge these fully yet. I'm not a huge fan so far though.

I would give Bush a "D-". The only thing keeping him from an "F" is that despite my disagreement with the legislation he was passing, he was actually able to get them passed almost as is, with very little change in comparison to what Obama has tried to pass.

I suppose to answer your question more concisely, the only thing I can really point to and say Obama has done better than Bush, at the time being, is public image. Considering I can't think of a good thing to say about Bush, except that he got done what he wanted done, Obama doesn't have to do much else for me to say he's doing better than Bush.
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#39199 - 06/08/10 05:13 PM Re: Obama's miss step [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising

To compete with Bush you don't have to do much, unless you're one to consider fucking things up as a success.

Specifically?

 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
I would give Bush a "D-". The only thing keeping him from an "F" is that despite my disagreement with the legislation he was passing, he was actually able to get them passed almost as is, with very little change in comparison to what Obama has tried to pass.


I'm not trying to pick on you really but on the one hand you say Bush was the world's best at fucking things up and on the other you say you applaud him for doing it wholesale versus being prevented from making it worse?

 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
I suppose to answer your question more concisely, the only thing I can really point to and say Obama has done better than Bush, at the time being, is public image. Considering I can't think of a good thing to say about Bush, except that he got done what he wanted done, Obama doesn't have to do much else for me to say he's doing better than Bush.


I don't much like Bush. I like Bush better than I like Obama in general though, and I have very specific reasons for this. I'm prodding at you a bit to see if you have specific reasons for your hyperbolic take on the political zeitgeist or if you're simply repeating what you've heard elsewhere.

Specifically, Obama's cringe worthy spending bills, his general kowtowing countenance (except to those who elected him), his insistence on putting off important decisions and his general lack of respect for We The People (yes, people voted him in AFTER he said that) puts him on the rung just under Jimmy Carter in my book. Of course, Bush went nuts in increasing the size of the federal government as well which makes him suspect to me.

Also, as for Bush-Katrina... the US government is not designed to be a first responder. That is what state governments and city governments are supposed to be prepared to do. FEMA was designed to come in after the fact of a catastrophe and to provide backup for local authorities. When we were rocked in Texas by hurricane Ike we were definitely hurting but there was no mass wailing for government assistance because recognizing that we live in hurricane central would (or should) necessitate us to prepare ourselves for a storm event. Personally I had no electricity for three weeks and I was fine.

Anyway, if you want to debate the specifics of how and/or why Bush's legislative accomplishments are preferable to Obama's (to date) we can go down that road but you have to be more specific.


Edited by Fnord (06/08/10 05:19 PM)
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#39202 - 06/08/10 09:51 PM Re: Obama's miss step [Re: Fnord]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Don't worry, I'm not taking it personal, though I find it hard to believe anyone could actually prefer Bush whose thought about it. Tax cuts for the rich, tax cuts for corporations, limiting freedom under guise of terrorist legislation, doing anything possible to help bring profit to whichever lobbyist paid him the most.

The American government might not be designed as a first responder, but its suppose to respond quickly. Bush was too slow in action as I see it.

I happen to know Obama said that and at the time I had accepted it. It's the realistic consequence of something I thought should have been done. I actually worked for an environmental lobbying group for a while who agreed with the bill as it was initially presented. It was then sent to congress and it was transformed to the point where it would do nothing to help the environment and still cause prices to sky rocket. That is when we started fighting against it.

I give Bush the credit I think he deserves, which is why I speak of his ability to pass legislation. It's definitely something I think a president should have the capability to do. I would have rather he'd be inept in that area, since he was in all others, but he wasn't, that's just how it is.

I really would rather not get into a whole debate about this or that politician. Why should I have to defend some person. I don't even like Obama that much myself, but I think he was the lesser of the evils the American people had to choose from.

I have a general dislike to all politicians, with a bit of respect. They mostly do the things I promote. Watching out for yourself, kowtowing, saying what you must to stay in power. It is all completely understandable. However, as one of the governed, that shit effects me. What I desire from a politician is almost never going to be what I can get from one, so they get a somewhat respectful middle finger from me.


I really don't feel like trying to defend any of them as a good politician because I doubt there are any to my standard of good. Actually, I'm fairly certain of that.


Edited by Lucifer Rising (06/08/10 09:54 PM)
Edit Reason: added thought
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#39204 - 06/09/10 07:05 AM Re: Obama's miss step [Re: cadfael]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
It is easy to get the people angry when making a few mistakes. Almost anyone assumes a leader has god-like abilities and every problem a group of people within society brings forth considered as "priority".
Let me point out Obama and Bush and former Presidents of the U.S or even any other person who has a leading function on global scale is BUT human which implies they can make mistakes based on information they receive at hand. Furthermore, do they have to deal with multiple issues at the time who are considered "priority". Even with a good timing and schedule some points will have to wait.

Cases such as the explosion on "deep water horizont" are things which will and have twisted the whole schedule. It is in my opinion quite hypocrite to shoot Obama for this unexpected case of affairs considering the amount of time given to make a statement and get informed. It is true he made a few lesser statements, but as far as I know the information given by BP is incomplete and twisted to make it look less worse. And I am quite certain most people will deal with it even worse if placed in this position.

I refrain from making any comment on Obama's or any other world leaders capabilities until the end of their terms. Only at the end I shall see his actions and decisions during the term have made a change, stagnated or collapsed the/a nation.

Critizing is easy, I wander how well those critics will do when placed in such position.


Edited by Dimitri (06/09/10 07:10 AM)
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#39208 - 06/09/10 11:23 AM Re: Obama's miss step [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
Don't worry, I'm not taking it personal, though I find it hard to believe anyone could actually prefer Bush whose thought about it.

I was going to let it go, but decided you need to quantify some things or perhaps not say them.

 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
Tax cuts for the rich,

You might want to read the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 available on the .gov website. If you do so, you will see that the income tax burden of the top 40% of earners actually went up 4%. 99% of all income taxes are paid by that same top 40%.

 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
tax cuts for corporations,

Good, that gives them more spending money which encourages them to hire more workers. Increasing the tax burden on corporations leaves them with less capital and therefore discourages the hiring of workers. It's a simple equation.


 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
limiting freedom under guise of terrorist legislation,

Specifically, what freedoms have you lost?

 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
doing anything possible to help bring profit to whichever lobbyist paid him the most.

That's politics. They all do that.

 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
The American government might not be designed as a first responder, but its suppose to respond quickly. Bush was too slow in action as I see it.


So 46 days into the current gulf crisis with no federal response other than Obama looking for whose ass to kick is expedient enough for you? Just because he went there a month ago doesn't mean he's authorized anything helpful other than sending Eric Holder out to figure out who's responsible.

Don't forget, it wasn't too long ago that Obama was all set to move forward with a new domestic drilling plan and has, of late, regressed to referring to it all as a bad idea.

In my opinion, all politicians (top level) are suspect because their first priority is their own career (it takes a certain type of narcissist to pursue a political career), their second priority is their standing with their peers and their last priority is to ensure the welfare of their constituents.

My goal is not to defend Bush but to take apart some of the hyperbolic accusations leveled at him because I don't believe a whole lot of it is rooted in truth.
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#39210 - 06/09/10 03:42 PM Re: Obama's miss step [Re: Fnord]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
I honestly do not pay that much attention to it to go into specifics. Thus why I'd rather not discuss it. However, my main argument is that Obama has done better in appearances. In politics, appearance is everything or damn near it. Bush's image left upon the vast majority of the world population is that of a goofball with a 2nd grade reading level. Kind of made the rest of the world question our sanity. Now we have our first black president and his image is that of an intelligent, well spoken man who's also a ninja.

As far as rights taken away, I've had a few friends have trouble because of terrorist regulation that Bush supported. Back in high school, about a year after 9/11, my friend, who was actually an Atheist, was accused of being a radical Muslim that made threats toward the school. Without question he was taken from school, his possessions searched, and they found a razor blade in his backpack at the bottom of some pocket. He was expelled from school and in the paperwork it says he was being expelled for terrorism. When the police took him, he was not read his rights; he didn't have any. I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous way to treat a 16 year old high school student or any citizen. All this just because some little christian fuck didn't like him and thought he looked Arab.

America is a democratic republic, things like truth don't matter in American politics. It's all a popularity contest. What matters is what people think. The world community seems to like our decision of Obama; they gave him a Nobel Prize practically just for not being Bush. I see this as a good thing, which is why I prefer Obama to Bush. Obama has a better image, and gives America a better image to most of the rest of the world. It's far from perfect, but its far better than being mocked by the entire world because our president appears to be an inbred redneck. He's given a new impression of America to the rest of the world and allows for better foreign relations. This is what I think benefits America more right now than any laws that could be passed, or any internal focus.

Yes, homeland affairs are important and I don't like when they pass something I think causes more harm than benefit, but I think that states can usually take care of themselves for the most part and that national laws usually are usually nothing more than a nuisance to people's everyday lives in America. So for the time being I am satisfied, though I do hope somebody will come along that can keep a good image and actually be able to govern.
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#39211 - 06/09/10 04:31 PM Re: Obama's miss step [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
I honestly do not pay that much attention to it to go into specifics.

Not much need to go on then.

 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
However, my main argument is that Obama has done better in appearances. In politics, appearance is everything or damn near it.

For me, results are far more important than appearances. These people pass laws that directly affect our lives so I don't give a shit whether people from other countries like them or not.

Quickly, then we'll discontinue the conversation:
I think America would greatly benefit from internal focus. Pull in the World Police Force (AKA the US Military), stop sending money to foreign countries and use it to fix our own problems, shore up the borders.

 Quote:

I think that states can usually take care of themselves for the most part and that national laws usually are usually nothing more than a nuisance to people's everyday lives in America...

I'll agree with you there. I can't fathom why you'd say it when you support a guy whose sole purpose is to increase the size and influence of the federal government, but I agree with that statement wholeheartedly.

EDIT:
Obama has bloopers too, just sayin'.
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#39215 - 06/09/10 05:49 PM Re: Obama's miss step [Re: Fnord]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
If you want to discuss certain things like what we think should be done, that is constructive to me. Otherwise you're just attacking or defending people or legislation because of decisions made that really had nothing to do with you or your political ideology.

I defend my choice of voting for Obama based on his image and what I estimated to be the possible consequences of his election. I haven't gotten everything I wanted, nor did I expect to, but as I said, I view image as something of great importance and I still think Obama has definitely done better in this than other candidates could have.

Just to note, I do think it makes sense that the federal government have control, at least in part, of a few things. I would be for a socialized health care. I think the federal government should be able to regulate business and the economy. In most other areas I think less federal government intervention is best, but I think it makes more sense for certain things to be done at national levels.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#39223 - 06/10/10 10:57 AM Re: Obama's miss step [Re: Lucifer Rising]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
On a personal level, I like Obama. He’s extremely bright and articulate, and he certainly presents a better image of America to the world than Bush did. That said, it bothers me that Obama doesn’t seem to have any sense of urgency regarding the federal deficit. I understand that we’re coming out of a horrible recession and that the economy is still quite fragile, and in such times the government may need to help jump-start the economy through deficit spending. However, I think it is important that Obama let the American people know that he takes the deficit seriously and is committed to taking strong measures to reduce it.

Of course, the problem Obama faces – the problem every recent president has faced – is that actually doing what is needed to reduce the deficit – making drastic cuts in Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security and raising taxes – is political suicide. Everyone says they’re for reducing the deficit, but no one wants to make the sacrifices necessary for it to happen. We want all the goodies but we don’t want to pay for them, so we just keep borrowing and putting ourselves deeper in debt. Bush, a so-called conservative, spent like a drunken sailor, and Obama shows no signs of reversing the trend.

Americans talk a good game when it comes to morality, but if they really cared about the next generation they wouldn’t leave them buried under a mountain of debt. It’s not enough to care about the unborn. The born could use a little help too.
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#39228 - 06/10/10 12:57 PM Just Another Hood Ornament [Re: cadfael]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
Presidents have been figureheads ever since learning the lesson of JFK. The forces which determine USA decision-making are much more impersonal and systemic. Not "conspiratorial", just routine.

As for the national debt/deficit, it's actually an international stabilizing factor. As long as the controlling interests in other countries hold so much American debt, and depend upon American consumption habits for their exports, they're stuck refinancing it. Otherwise if we collapse, they collapse. [You just saw a mini-version of this in the recent "recession" gig.]

In 1987 at the National Defense University, I was asked to forecast the probability of a Warsaw Pact invasion of NATO, which was the big propaganda scare-story used by the Reagan Administration. I said "zero", because the USSR was critically economically dependent upon East Germany, which was critically dependent upon West Germany; hence Moscow could not kill the gold-egg-laying goose without triggering its own collapse. And that's basically what happened a short time later, except that it was a riot in Poland that spread to East Germany which kicked it off.

So relax, ladies and gentlement ... I guess we had you fooled for a moment, but it's all part of the show.
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