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#754 - 10/01/07 02:46 PM Re: Question. [Re: rottingteeth]
Venger Satanis Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/27/07
Posts: 11

i don't believe i've ever heard of the "nobility of suffering", but i have heard of noblese oblige. a noble's obligation. personally, i think that a Satanist should see himself as superior because he's putting forth superior effort (it being comparatively easy to surpass the average human). however, a Satanist also has a responsibility to himself, his fellow Satanists, and the world at large. basically, it's this: don't sell yourself short, don't be a total asshole, and don't ever give up.

...these are the obligations of his nobility.

everyone suffers, and i think it's up to the individual to alleviate himself of whatever ails him.

all that light/dark stuff is just semantics.

Hail the new Satanic Aeon!


Venger As'Nas Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest

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#767 - 10/01/07 07:31 PM Re: Question. [Re: Venger Satanis]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
 Originally Posted By: Venger Satanis
i think that a Satanist should see himself as superior because he's putting forth superior effort (it being comparatively easy to surpass the average human).


Just what are you saying? A Satanist should feel superior because it is easy for him to surpass the average person? Are you saying he should feel superior due to his being superior? Are you saying anything at all?

 Originally Posted By: Venger Satanis
a Satanist also has a responsibility to himself, his fellow Satanists, and the world at large. basically, it's this: don't sell yourself short, don't be a total asshole, and don't ever give up.


I have a responsibility to myself and my own, my brood or pack so to speak… I have no responsibility to you because you choose to use a title I identify myself with… Unless I choose to make it so…

Very few people are total assholes… We all have friends…

Do you think never giving up is a lesson that any Satanist would need? A Satanist knows when to give up…

Peace

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#775 - 10/02/07 12:00 AM Re: Question. [Re: ta2zz]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
noblese oblige...

a term used by the Knight during the middle ages.

In practical terms, the noble right to do whatever you want by force, self made law, or deed.
Remember the law of first right, that was often insisted upon....

Oh, that means that your knight or lord can fuck your wife first on your wedding night.

Thus you never know who is the father of your first child.

If you are superior, then then there is no need to proclaim it, it shows all by itself.
If you have to point it out, then you just don't have it.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#779 - 10/02/07 12:22 AM Re: Question. [Re: Venger Satanis]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
There is a Zen proverb that goes "without suffering the soul cannot grow." Stoics (in the classical Hellenic sense) seek to transcend normal human suffering through Reason and Natural Law.

We in the West live lives mostly removed from suffering and Natural Law. Reason these days seems to be taking a back seat to people's 'feeeeelings.'

Most 'satanist' in the West lack any credibility in regards to suffering, reason or Natural Law because their live's range from the modestly Epicurean to the lavishly Hedonistic.

Rare is the Satanist who truly understands suffering or vice at a fundamental level. At best, they dabble at the periphery of it.

Stick to what you know...


Edited by Fist (10/02/07 12:36 AM)
Edit Reason: Lacking the Plural Possive in Live's
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#812 - 10/02/07 05:43 PM Re: Question. [Re: rottingteeth]
Venger Satanis Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/27/07
Posts: 11
 Quote:
Just what are you saying? A Satanist should feel superior because it is easy for him to surpass the average person? Are you saying he should feel superior due to his being superior? Are you saying anything at all?


I’m saying that a Satanist, or anyone, should only feel superior when he is acting in a superior or above average way. If you're living in this world as an ordinary person, then you shouldn’t consider yourself superior at all.

yes, everyone has friends of some kind (even if they are imaginary). So we can’t use that definition for an asshole, otherwise there would be no assholes in the world... and as we all know, that's not true. This is how i would define asshole:

a detestable, mean, and obnoxiously overbearing person.

To put it in LaVeyan Satanic terms, if you walk into open territory and see someone who you don’t know and strike them without provocation, then you are an asshole. Obviously, what provokes one might not provoke another. But we usually know an asshole when we find one.

If your own brood or pack consists solely of your immediate friends and family, then I think a Satanist’s responsibility does in fact extend beyond this.

a noble's responsibility doesn't require an ordinary person to give a fuck about anyone, but that's what removes nobility from the average joe.

People give up all the time. Doesn’t matter if they are a Satanist, a christian, an Atheist, a mechanic, or a doctor. This world beats us down, it kills hope and dreams. Learning not to give up in the face of adversity is of prime importance and something severely lacking in all walks of life. if someone is following their True Will, then they must never give up. never ever ever give up. that is the key.

 Quote:

noblese oblige...

a term used by the Knight during the middle ages.

In practical terms, the noble right to do whatever you want by force, self made law, or deed.
Remember the law of first right, that was often insisted upon....

Oh, that means that your knight or lord can fuck your wife first on your wedding night.

Thus you never know who is the father of your first child.

If you are superior, then there is no need to proclaim it, it shows all by itself.
If you have to point it out, then you just don't have it.

Morgan


actually... no. sorry, Morgan, but you’re thinking of something else entirely with a completely different name: droit du seigneur, loosely translated as the “right of the lord”.

many times, superiority is invisible to the masses, and it must be proclaimed! i think Nietzsche would agree with me there.


Hail the new Satanic Aeon!


Venger As'Nas Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest

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#820 - 10/02/07 08:11 PM Re: Question. [Re: Venger Satanis]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
 Originally Posted By: Venger Satanis
If you're living in this world as an ordinary person, then you shouldn’t consider yourself superior at all.


I agree… But is this truly what you were trying to say?

 Quote:
yes, everyone has friends of some kind (even if they are imaginary).


We were not talking about your friends and followers derrick…

 Quote:
To put it in LaVeyan Satanic terms, if you walk into open territory and see someone who you don’t know and strike them without provocation, then you are an asshole.


Wrong I break a Satanic rule of the earth… This does what condemns my soul to heaven?

What if it is my way to hit random pissants? Would I then not be acting very Satanic to my own means?

 Quote:
But we usually know an asshole when we find one.


They tend to stink…

 Quote:
If your own brood or pack consists solely of your immediate friends and family, then I think a Satanist’s responsibility does in fact extend beyond this.


This is your thought nothing more… This is your way…

 Quote:
a noble's responsibility doesn't require an ordinary person to give a fuck about anyone, but that's what removes nobility from the average joe.


Are you recognizing my nobility? ;\)

 Quote:
This world beats us down, it kills hope and dreams.


This is a sad world you live in but you welcome the chaos remember?

 Quote:
Learning not to give up in the face of adversity is of prime importance and something severely lacking in all walks of life.


Not all walks… But I understand why you feel this is an important lesson…

 Quote:
if someone is following their True Will, then they must never give up. never ever ever give up. that is the key.


Lets tell a story of a man who makes a game… Everybody thinks the game is pretty much useless shit… The man will never ever ever give up because he knows better than most that people need this game… He dies wanting never achieving anything never able to see what he was doing wrong… Not willing to try something different… Thinking all along how wrong everybody else is…

Your Satanist model dead ends pretty quickly don’t you think? Roll 2 D-10 to see the damage to your charisma due to this failure…

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
If you are superior, then there is no need to proclaim it, it shows all by itself.
If you have to point it out, then you just don't have it. ~ Morgan


Well said, Morgan…

 Originally Posted By: Venger Satanis
many times, superiority is invisible to the masses, and it must be proclaimed! i think Nietzsche would agree with me there.


Nietzsche doesn’t do much thinking lately… Looking for support from a dead guy rings a bit lost to me…

Good day…

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#836 - 10/03/07 01:16 AM Re: Question. [Re: ta2zz]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
noblese oblige

The bottom line is still this, a term used by the Knight during the middle ages.

In practical terms, the noble right to do whatever you want by force, self made law, or deed.

To look at it in Romantic Arthurian legend terms is just not real. These men, killed, ate, took, and were not generally nice people.

They respected or understood fighting, the church, and the king (state). They were mercenaries. You can dress it up, and try to make it look pretty, but in the end, they killed for money more often than a ladies' favor.

That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger, the uberman, etc. BUT how many actually do something outside of themselves. How many try to be something more. How many look in the mirror and think damn, I learned something new today. How many want to learn something new. How many want something more for themselves and go after it. How many actually influence other people to be or do something more.

How many just go home and sit on the couch, drink and beer and watch the telly proclaiming that they are the highest embodiment of all. Yeah right, hail those satanist..

How many settled....
And Just still dont realize it.

Fuck it, I am just disgusted at the stupidity on this board lately.
I expect better of you guys, and in the past you have been better.
Geeze, I feel like your Mom.

Morg

You are all grounded....
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#837 - 10/03/07 03:11 AM Re: Question. [Re: Morgan]
ICouldBuyYouAll Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Expensive
Come on,

There was at least a little bit of historical fact in Braveheart.

Don't tell me you've never seen the movie, if you do then are a fucking lie.

"Noblesse" oblige is basically what Longshanks described as "Prima Nocte" or (first night) which is by definition what Morgan pointed out from the very beginning.

But fuck it, lets call it for what it is/was (rape)

Of course while this was a well known European law at one time, it was not introduced into Europe for a couple of centuries after this movie was set. But that's beside the point here.

These people felt that with nobility came social "responsibilities". Well ... if you want to count condescending, patronizing & hypocritical attitudes responsibilities, then they were genius at it.

Of course even in modern times in the military noblesse oblige can be found. It's a private motto of every officer of the United States Marine Corp. (Of course it's not meant like the aforementioned. but more like the Spider-Man: "With great power comes great responsibility." idea in mind.)

Venger Satanis:

 Quote:

a noble's responsibility doesn't require an ordinary person to give a fuck about anyone, but that's what removes nobility from the average joe.


Bullshit, the only thing that separated nobility from anybody else was a fucking title, and the clothes they wore.

The world doesn't beat us down, or kill our hopes and dreams. What beats us down is ourselves, our insecurities and being too fucking lazy to do something about the dreams that we have.

Those who actually get up off their asses and do something instead of waiting for it to fall into their laps, actuallty accomplish something with their lives instead of feeling sorry for themselves because the big bad world is out to get them, or the bully at school whooped their ass or their parents drank too much.

You take charge of your own fucking life, you slam the bullies head into the goddamn desk and you get a job and move out of your parents house ... The End.

By the way Mr. Historian ... There is little evidence that "droit du seigneur" actually existed. And it originally referred to a number of other things like hunting, farming and taxation.

So don't tell someone else "no ... sorry" when A. Their were correct & B. You have your shit straight.

Superiority has always been visible from the dawn of time, ever head of survival of the fittest? If there were a caveman who got confronted by a hungry sabre-tooth tiger, then in the seconds before the tiger pounced, they managed to pick up a nearby branch, used it as a club, he hit the tiger and shattered its skull and survived.

Then the very next day at the same exact spot with another branch well within reach one of their dumb ass paleolithic buddies encountered a sabre-tooth, and got his fucking face eaten off...well, do I really need to continue?

Nietzsche died over 100 years ago, so if he would agree with you or NOT is irrelevant.

If he were alive, he'd most likely say: "And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ... as the matter of a fact, jump into it asshole."


_________________________
Point my finger at myself...I'm to blame. Point your finger at me...I'll break it.

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#845 - 10/03/07 10:59 AM Re: Question. [Re: ICouldBuyYouAll]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
This whole thing has been blown way out of proportion. Venger Satanis completely misunderstood what I was saying. When I said "the nobility of suffering," (which is NOT an established term likenoblesse oblige) I was referring to a tendency in Christian thinking that a life of suffering (while living piously and in pious contemplation i.e. Job) better prepares one for "heaven." In other words, in its most extreme (and antiquated) form, asceticism. I wasn't referring to "Satanic superiority" or nobility during the Middle Ages or Renaissance, or anything of the kind, although there were some good comments made by Morgan, ta2zz, among others, in regards to that.

However, in the interest of keeping the thread of conversation, I will add this:

As Satanists, I do not believe we have obligations to anyone, unless we so choose (back to the "kindness to those who deserve it" thing). Sure, I am cordial to most people I meet at first, but if they prove to be unworthy of the generosity of such a cordial demeanor, then I disregard them. Often negligence is more powerful than outright dislike.

 Quote:
waiting for it to fall into their laps

In other words, praying, or luck... or "good things come to those who wait." Well, if you wait long enough, something good is bound to happen, because almost anything has to be better than waiting, eh?

In accordance with what Morgan said, superiority is not to be proclaimed, it just is. Either you're a superior example of a human being, or you're the guy that drools and rides the short bus to school. Then again, retards are born that way...what's everyone else's excuse?
_________________________
The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

Homo Homini Lupus

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#852 - 10/03/07 02:39 PM Re: Question. [Re: Draculesti]
MaggotFaceMoe Offline
member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 164
Loc: Finland
 Quote:
Then again, retards are born that way...what's everyone else's excuse?


Ha, I liked this one \:\)

But back to the matter even though it is short... The nobility of suffering in my opinion is more established in hindu religion than in christian. Of course there are these guys who beat themselves to suffer enough for a better afterlife but I don't think it can be compared to the way of hindu's.

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#863 - 10/03/07 11:34 PM Re: Question. [Re: ICouldBuyYouAll]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
These people felt that with nobility came social "responsibilities". Well ... if you want to count condescending, patronizing & hypocritical attitudes responsibilities, then they were genius at it.

Of course even in modern times in the military noblesse oblige can be found. It's a private motto of every officer of the United States Marine Corp. (Of course it's not meant like the aforementioned. but more like the Spider-Man: "With great power comes great responsibility." idea in mind.)


Hmmm, this is a good point.

You average 'satanist' in black clothes from Hot Topic and eye liner tends to be a moral and physical coward. They exist only in the context of Western Civilization where their 'rights' and physical security are secured by other people - people who, more often than not, they disdain.

For all of his talk of 'superiority' I wonder what is the bravest or noblest thing 'ol Venger has ever done?
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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