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#46900 - 01/16/11 05:59 PM Mensa forum topic: "To Forgive or Not to Forgive?" [Re: ceruleansteel]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Mmmmmm I think it's a bit more complex than this and some point were not adressed.

Looking at the definition I find:
 Originally Posted By: wikipedia
Forgiveness is typically defined as the process of concluding resentment, indignation or anger as a result of a perceived offense, difference or mistake, and/or ceasing to demand punishment or restitution.


So there is one part related to justice (claim for punishment/restitution) and on other part is about "feelings management".
Yet an other facette doesn't appear obviously in the definition: self-forgiveness...


 Quote:
A psychotherapist I once knew (in thrall to neo-Stoic/Spinozist philosophy) gave the opinion that revenge is nothing but an irrational reaction to one's lack of understanding of the other person's motives. However, although there may be a grain of truth here, by and large I disagree with such a reductionistic approach.


So the above view is more about feeling management than justice but all the thread is articulated arround the justice side.

Of course giving the image of a pigeon and being the scapegoat is surely not recommended but entering an endless ping-pong revenge game can also be destructive.

On feeling management, I'm not sure nourishing feelings of anger and hate for a long time is always advisable. Understanding the other's motivation can be usefull for diminishing these feelings... without preventing rendering justice.

So I think opting for a case by case approach is better than choosing revenge systematically.


Edited by Fabiano (01/16/11 06:00 PM)

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#46974 - 01/17/11 11:17 PM Re: Mensa forum topic: "To Forgive or Not to Forgive?" [Re: Fabiano]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
If the irrefragability of forgiveness means the predetermination of a moral life, it is pure and simple. It is true that our present life is the result of forgiveness, and that as long as forgiveness preserves its vitality there is no chance to escape its consequences: good or Evil. Secondly, it is true that if our intellect were not ill-considered as it is, we could reduce the complexity of conditions under which our life exists into its simplest terms predicting with mathematical precision the course of life through which it will pass; hence, using forgiveness is an adjunct.

If we could record all of our previous acts of forgiveness from time immemorial and all its consequences both on ourselves and those who come in contact with us: there would be no difficulty in determining life with utmost certainty. The human intellect is incapable of undertaking a work of such enormous magnitude--we cannot perceive the full force of determinism.

It is from the human point of view that we feel uncertain about our disposition, and endeavor to explain existence from a mechanical, teleological standpoint. At the bottom of our Selves, we feel that there is something mysterious which makes us cry: 'Let Thy Will Be Done.' While this confidence in 'Thy Will' proves in our inmost consciousness and outside intellectual analysis a belief in order. This order is not controllable by our partial, fragmentary Minds and that forgiveness must not be understood in the strictest sense of the word.

666
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#47198 - 01/22/11 07:27 PM Re: Mensa forum topic: "To Forgive or Not to Forgive?" [Re: paolo sette]
whisper Offline
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Registered: 01/18/11
Posts: 2
I believe in do unto others as they do unto you. So many Chrisitians have said to me "Oh, forgive them, you'll be a better person." Oh, yeah? I got tired of being nice all the time.
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#47335 - 01/25/11 04:13 AM Re: The Colonists are Revolting! [Re: ceruleansteel]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Well, let me think about what my feelings are in relation to forgiveness. The challenge for me is that while I don't have a problem with revenge and would suggest an eye for an eye is entirely appropriate. In practice i simply don't get angry very often. People that offend me generally lead such miserable lives already my revenge is simply letting them be. I know that I'm hard to upset but if you do upset me, I never forgive. But it's been ages.

While the automatic mandatory forgiveness of the white light fluffy variety will make you an easy and delicious target for abuse, that's not an argument against forgiveness in every context. Forgiveness can be a healing thing and be entirely positive, but generally of a person you that has you consumed with hate - not just anyone.

the downside to revenge, is that the hatred remains even if they are dead. Or such is my experience.

That which we don't like in others, too often is what we do not like in ourselves. Forgiveness then in a way can become less about the other person and more about self acceptance.


Edited by myk5 (01/25/11 04:16 AM)
Edit Reason: another thought

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#47337 - 01/25/11 06:04 AM Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun. [Re: Meq]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
It seems to me a universal and correct answer cannot be given since many social factors are involved. One time events without a lasting negative impact can be forgiven. Others which are having a negative impact (duration aside), are to be measured and seen what the exact consequences are and the choice to forgive/not forgive after taking a look at it.

It's always in the best interest to think for a while and put everything in perspective. Within Satanic philosophy it is commonly said to "to smash the others' cheek". I interpretate it as revenge may be possible when the deed was way off its limits and "to show them a lesson". It does not mean to always take revenge when something bad happens (and if the event persists then perhaps it has something to do with a taken attitude), it simply means the option is free to take without feeling any guilt or shame.
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#47338 - 01/25/11 06:29 AM Re: Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun. [Re: Dimitri]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I think the example Diavolo gave in this post well fits in this thread. It shows that dumb application of the eye for eye principle is not always a good idea. For the ease of reading, I copy here the relevant extract:

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Let me give you the example of one of the guys I know here. Denny is a sweet guy, large as an ox but in general a sweet chap. What he doesn't like is to be pissed off. No slapping his cheeks. So one day he sells his car to some dude, and they agree he's going to pay him X many months, X amount of cash. Pretty silly; if you sell something make sure you get all the cash before you deliver because sooner or later they'll fuck you over. So yes, that is what happened to Denny, at one point the other dude stopped paying. So Denny got pissed and bitch-slapped some sense in the guy (the kind of slapping that makes awful noises), the guy presses charges and Denny goes to jail.
Now Denny is really pissed.

So after some time Denny comes out of jail and being very very pissed he gets a gun and pays his 'friend' a visit. It ends with him shooting at the dude; missing and then after deciding that large objects don't miss that easily, runs him over with his car. 4 times.

Denny never turned the other cheek and while he's one of the amusing but at some level rather harmless acquaintances I got here, the real question is if you'd turn the other cheek if Denny slapped it. It all depends on how far one is willing to go but most people, satanists included, live enjoyable but rather 'average' lives and concepts of retaliation are, of course, situated in this same averageness.

Everyone strikes back as long as striking back is situated in their realm. Once it is outside of it, most back down and endure, often even presenting the other cheek.

D.

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#47409 - 01/26/11 06:50 PM Re: Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun. [Re: Fabiano]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I put a comment on the first page but I would like to add to it.

It all depends on the situation.

Some things you can forgive.
Some things you can forgive and forget.
Some things you can never forgive.
Some things you can never forgive or forget.

Some people who act out do it because they crave the attention that a public castigation will give them. They fuck up so bad repeatedly because even that bad behavior will give them some measure of recognition that they need in order to feel validated.

For those people, the worse thing you can do to them is ignore them while fucking up their lives behind the scenes. They will always wonder when the shoe will drop or who will knock on their front door and wonder about the next time they are shoved by a stranger in their corner bar.

Yes, they may deserve a beatdown, and a sidewalk sandwich, but sometimes physical violence is just too easy for what someone has done. It's better that they suffer mentally for a few years, then get a random beatdown that is untraceable.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#47485 - 01/28/11 02:26 PM Re: The Colonists are Revolting! [Re: ceruleansteel]
Room 101 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Scotland
Ironic subject title seeing as Meq is no longer here.

But jokes aside, I see no use in forgiveness. As far as im concerned, once bitten, there is no way back.

Revenge is a must.
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"Nothing is your own except the few cubic centimeters inside your skull." - George Orwell (1984)

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#47489 - 01/28/11 07:36 PM Re: Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun. [Re: Morgan]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Some people who act out do it because they crave the attention that a public castigation will give them. They fuck up so bad repeatedly because even that bad behavior will give them some measure of recognition that they need in order to feel validated.

For those people, the worse thing you can do to them is ignore them ...

There's always a Pancho Pillow around ...
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#47530 - 01/29/11 07:07 PM Re: Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Room 101: No use in forgiveness? You sure? I mean, if a small child calls you a name, you can't dismiss that as irrelevant?

And if a small child calling you a name can be dismissed as irrelevant, is it not possible that who you require vengeance upon actually reveals that you are weak enough that what they say or do is more meaningful than a child saying or doing that same thing?

Of course if someone attacks you or harms you in a substantial way, this sense of forgiveness betraying your weakness isn't relevant - but your vengeance in such a context may be more easily interpreted as self defense, are at least righteous and justified, as well.


Edited by myk5 (01/29/11 07:08 PM)

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#47534 - 01/29/11 07:32 PM Re: Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun. [Re: myk5]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Do you talk just to hear yourself speak?

Do you understand the concept of common sense?

Do you understand that "most" of the Satanists here understand how to blend common sense into all their actions especially the idea of forgiveness or vengeance?

Some actions are unforgivable, and deserve vengeance.
If you can't understand that then maybe you are in the wrong place.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#47537 - 01/29/11 08:26 PM Re: Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun. [Re: Morgan]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
@ morgan: I am properly admonished, my apologies. I was replying to a specific comment and meant to imply no blanket assumption.
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#47610 - 01/30/11 04:47 PM Re: Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun. [Re: myk5]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
I think Morgan was directing her reply to Michael (En-Rah-Hah-Set). I can type and type about what she might be feeling, experiencing and thinking; however, I'm not Morgan. She's in charge of her-Self. I'll refrain from saying anything else, except this discussion caused the condition of 'the wheels' turning in my Mind.

Forgiveness that humankind feels must have two aspects: an interhuman aspect within humankind, and an aspect which concerns human responsibility to the objective universe (reality). A human community (e.g. the 600 club) serves humankind by going beyond distinctions between, for example, races or between people generally. Satanism and/or Setism which is established therein takes a look at the community in their respective particularity.

Such groupings without restraing people, allow for free, creative activity and naturally serve human society (e.g. the community at the 600 club) and enrich the content of culture (e.g. Satanism and/or Setism. People can only become the bearer of forgiveness by the realization of the mediating person who is free to act on the basis of their own cultural identity.

666

p.s.- Morgan, you're are a firebrand! \:\)
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#53490 - 04/25/11 08:26 PM Re: Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun. [Re: paolo sette]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I would like to add something.

causing an enemy emotional trauma is lackluster and unnecessary because the enemies mental state is irrelevant, only to affirm that he is incommunicable, only the destruction of his body is important, his ability to harm is lessened.

I will tell of something. I care for my family, I don't want them to be hurt, I have seen my mother plastered over the walls when I was a boy, I feel I will go to jail all the time because this world is a place of unstable people who get drunk and do sick stuff, I have lots of sisters to look after, I feel I can't avoid the inevitability of someone who will pose danger to my family and I'll do something very bad. I don't have any interest in having fun because of this. I am a dangerous person and constantly feel lethal, yet I have never wanted to hurt anyone, I react to stressful situations.

It's never been about revenge for me, mature negotiations do not always work. I don't feel anything except that the end is here and that it is time to die, so I fight this way. Then I feel sad as I wait for the police to come because there was no choice given to me. I don't drink or take any substance, I cannot be around others that do. Many of the reasons domestic violence gets to be so bad is because of drink and drug abuse. I grew up in those surroundings and saw much bloody violence and encounters with sociopaths, hammers, blades all kinds of hostage type situations within the home, this is why I react with full force to any kind of threat. I just decide, and then feel bad afterwards that I had no choice. I'm the nicest man you could meet, I'm well mannered, it's not even a case of getting on the wrong side of me, I ignore peoples behaviours and only respond to problematic scenarios. I don't get offended and don't seek to offend, such is irrelevant to my thinking.

My brother had to have plastic surgery till he was 14 because of what an ex army soldier done to him when he was a little boy. I simply see that there are many many of the same people and treat any threat as worthless rubbish that deserves to die. This is why I am big on respect and privacy, anyone who shows a threat to somebody else is asking to be killed. Only sheltered and vulgar bullies feel safe in making susceptible people suffer, when they receive unstoppable violence they turn pale an urinate. I have seen this happen twice.

Women who let such men abuse them in their homes, put their children second to entertain bizarre abusive relationships with the sociopaths, the kids can grow up to be dangerous people.

So for me it's nothing to do with revenge or forgiveness, it's affirmation that if you have loved ones to protect, violence is unavoidable in this world of sick human beings.
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